Beware The Swarm

[Sir Kohran]

I was picturing him mentioning it in a Turaga meeting, and they collectively agree (based on past proofs that his visions matter, of course; they didn't all start out liking them, heh) to put some warnings somewhere.

 

But why? If they were worried about a threat from the Bohrok they should've just organised better defences for the villages, not put a couple of signs in the wild. What use would that be?

 

Well sure... and how much more something not even in his Wahi?

 

But it's more time-consuming and dangerous for him to travel to another Wahi than just putting it in his own.

 

I brought up that question because you said as if it was a fact that there aren't others elsewhere. It's you who's assuming that.

 

it's important to point out that you can't assume there aren't others.

 

It's not really a matter of assuming, because we only consider what we know of. For example, for years we only considered there to be six types of Matoran, because we only ever saw six. We only started considering there to be more than six when types other than the original six were shown.

 

Likewise, we should only consider the two warnings in Le-Wahi and Ko-Wahi because those were the only ones shown.

 

Sigh... this is looking a lot like one of those rabbit holes.

 

You don't want to visit Wonderland?

 

I don't get why you do this sometimes, Koh. You brought up the idea that Ta would have to be first. Now you don't see why it would matter that you don't know which came first? It was your idea -- isn't it reasonable of me to expect you to have thought this through?

 

Well, I wasn't really thinking about which area came first in terms of time, and we don't know that anyway.

 

Well, that's a whole 'nother tangent. This is getting complex enough, I'd rather pass for now except to say, I don't take the Bohrok symbol as necessarily counting as a warning anyways

 

You first brought it up as a possible example of a warning in Ta-Wahi.

 

Were all of those in the thick falling snow? I forget.

 

The three flags that need to be passed to reach the warning stone are all in the snow field, yes.

 

I think something like the Order doing it would make more sense. But I don't think it's as good a fit as the Turaga.

 

I'd say it's the other way round.

 

Besides the answer I already gave (I presume you just hadn't read it yet when you typed this),

 

Could you repeat it? I'm not sure which bit you mean.

 

keep in mind the entire game is through the POV of Takua. So it seems likely that, regardless of how the MNOG makers intended it to originate (if they worried about it at all), they did intend it to be important to Takua. And their game ended (almost at the end anyways) with that scene with the Bohrok. And the Le warning (I think) was the "wake one wake all" which clearly echoed what seemed (to Takua) to be going on in that scene. I think it's clear they intended that connection.

 

It's obviously foreshadowing by the makers, but that's not an in-story reason.

 

No, but he doesn't need to in order for the warning to matter for him and history that depends on him not getting himself killed

 

He wanders into the nest then barely escapes with the help of the chisel thing Onewa gave him. The warnings made no difference whatsoever to anything that happened there.

 

I don't think we should be making too much of the usually silent game protagonist not talking a lot as far as we're shown.

 

If he wasn't going to tell anybody, what was the point of him knowing?

 

Again, big Wall of Prophesy. Carved by Ko-Matoran. Kopeke also was known to carve ice sculptures. It's one thing that made him a candidate for the Chronicler's Co.

 

Now Kohran, yagotta admit this is really stretching. Yeehhhhhh.... You could make a case, but carving is a general Matoran (/Turaga) behavior.

 

I meant stone carving, which requires a hammer (as Onewa and Hafu are seen using), the warning in question clearly being made of stone. Ice sculpting seems to be something Ko-Matoran can do without tools (watch the Kopeke opening the gate clip, he makes a key from an icicle with his bare hands). The Wall of Prophecy was just etching letters onto a surface.

 

Yes, but it's not much help. They seemed to think there were to be "ancient carvers", as in past generations on the island. That was not canonically approved, but probably what they had in mind.

 

That's certainly possible.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Sir Kohran

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I don't think there was supposed to be an in-story reason for this other than foreshadowing 2002 Bionicle. That's my stance on it. Regardless, considering that MNOG was never approved by the story team it's reasonable to conclude that the story team never really had any intentions on explaining this.

 

-NotS

[bonesiii]

If they were worried about a threat from the Bohrok they should've just organised better defences for the villages, not put a couple of signs in the wild. What use would that be?

I've already given some suggestions to that end.

 

And not sure what you mean about defenses. Because of the Rahi raids they had pretty strong reasons to have the best defenses they could anyways.

 

But it's more time-consuming and dangerous for him to travel to another Wahi than just putting it in his own.

But now you're back to Vakama having to personally travel to Ko-Wahi again! I never said that.

 

And even this doesn't seem to work. I tend to think if you could speak with him face to face and you suggested he couldn't handle it, he might start tapping you on the head with his staff lol. And for whatever it's worth, we do have one source showing him there.

 

But still, why not Nuju or Matoro?

 

It's not really a matter of assuming, because we only consider what we know of.

We don't know of a generalized "stay off this island" warning system either, K. But you were using a fallacious approach here. When we don't have the data to test something either way, we can't rely on one claim or another about it. To test it you'd need to see a canon version of every inch of Ta-Wahi. (And keep in mind I didn't say any needed to be in Ta-Wahi anyways. That's arbitrary.)

 

For example, for years we only considered there to be six types of Matoran, because we only ever saw six.

Are you saying that you personally assumed there were definitely only six? If so, don't put me in that 'we'. That's argument from silence/ignorance fallacy. Rather, all we could know is that "We only currently know of six types." That leaves open (prior to Greg eventually confirming when the list was complete) the possibility that there could be more.

 

And in this case your very pick of analogy hurts your own case, since in fact there are more than six.

 

Likewise, we should only consider the two warnings in Le-Wahi and Ko-Wahi because those were the only ones shown.

Not how theories work, K. When we have evidence that another data point might (might) be possible, we CAN consider it, and you're doing the very same thing (and applying this fallacious rule inconsistently to allow it) when you support an alternative explanation, which is likewise unknown.

 

It's also odd for your theory that the two warnings we do know of just happen to be next to two of the villages. That's possible with enough random scattering, but we'd then have to assume some farther out ones were encountered and not shown. It could work anyways (after all, I'm the one that said not to worry too much about placement... but in part because as I said at the start, hiding things at random places on the island is a known behavior for these Turaga!) but since you're also the one emphasizing placement, I think it's valid to notice this problem with your preferred theory too.

 

You don't want to visit Wonderland?

I like to keep my head.

 

Well, I wasn't really thinking about which area came first in terms of time

Alright.... I gotta ask, then, what else does 'first' mean?

 

Or are you just saying you didn't take that part of your post all that seriously?

 

You first brought it up as a possible example of a warning in Ta-Wahi.

[Emph. mine] Yeah? What's your point? You did see [not] "necessarily" there, right?

 

The three flags that need to be passed to reach the warning stone are all in the snow field, yes.

Okay, so fair deduction that those had to be pretty close to each other, right? Now, if I understood you right, there's also three screens before you enter the 'snow field', between the tunnel exit and there, yes? So, my question is, do those other three flags also seem fairly close together? (I would think so, as Matoro wouldn't know when or where a strong snowstorm reducing visibility might show up.)

 

So... not sure if we would want to try to estimate what that distance is, but the island is on the scale of many miles, so it can't be anywhere near that, more like tens of feet, right? Maybe tens of yards at the most.

 

So, you now agree it's close by? At least to the tunnel exit?

 

[Addition after first draft: Eh, I decided to look them up. I'm not going to worry about tunnel length, as there's no way to measure it. It could be fairly long; there's only three screens, but not much more than that to cross, for example, Po-Wahi. But still, it being so near a tunnel where Matoro goes often, since he attends Turaga meetings, strongly fits my theory, regardless of where the exit comes up.

 

Once you come out the tunnel, the first flag is very close, only a few yards away, and the second is also in sight and seems very close. Clicking seems to take you to the second flag, skipping past the first, as suddenly you're amongst rocks. There are two in that screen, also very close, and you go through a rocky pass. Now you seem to be at the second flag from the previous screen (which would be the third total flag), and looking at a fourth which is a bit more distant, along this canyon floor. But the flag still looks pretty large on the screen, so yards away at most.

 

Now hold up! I'm not seeing what you described. I see no flag, just snow, and clicking keeps taking many more screens. I did turn around though just to see if I could see the way back. Maybe that messed it up... or maybe it's random. Anywho, after MANY more screens, there it is (this is hurting my argument, sure... Although apparently I was right that you can get lost. IF it's random, then it could be right next to the exit... either way, I don't think it could be that far, as if you wandered off for miles in a random direction, I doubt you'd pick up the flag trail again.)

 

Okay, you know, never mind all that. We're all forgetting a clincher (probably) that was in front of our faces the whole time. Look at the actual statue itself:

 

 

Now who else do we know that are responsible for carvings with that face design? The Turaga/Matoran on the island. (Maybe this is what my intuition was vaguely recalling, heh.)

 

You know, that changes things about what I said about what the MNOG designers had in mind. The Turaga were the ones specifically shown using that more than most. I suppose they still might have seen the elder association as loosely connected to the noncanon "ancient builders" but yeah. In any event, it makes the Turaga being responsible in general a good fit. Although it does argue against the "hiding who was responsible" part, admittedly.

 

I'll also admit that in my retelling I repurposed the classic Mata Nui stone as a shape that was around for a long time, invented by Mata Nui. Obviously I could thus not argue that this is impossible. However, canonically we don't have evidence of such a thing as far as I know. I suppose the Order could imitate the Turaga's style, but yeah... a stretch methinks.]

 

 

 

Quote

I think something like the Order doing it would make more sense. But I don't think it's as good a fit as the Turaga.

 

I'd say it's the other way round.

 

Okay... what precedent do we have for the Order originating carvings on the island?

 

We have plenty of it for the Turaga, plus hiding things. I don't think you're right here.

 

Still possible but I'm saying it's got less evidence. Plus, the Order generally tries to stay out of things and draw as little attention as possible. In fact, did they ever do anything, at least prior (loosely) to Artakha's involvement with the Nuva cube and Nuva masks, to tip the Turaga off that they were (or might) be paying attention to that island at all? The Toa Metru did know there was such a group from the revived Karzahni plant (if memory serves), but as far as I recall that was the last of their knowledge.

 

If the Order did this, the Turaga would know they didn't make it so they might deduce that the order did it. Not sure the Order would be okay with that, yanno?

 

I did just think of an alternate (kinda spooky) theory... Makuta. But then we know he didn't like to leave his lair and I doubt infected Rahi could do it. Maybe something like an infected Brakas... eh... Or Kraata of Heat Vision lol? (I highly doubt any version of this... just populating the candidates field. )

 

Could you repeat it? I'm not sure which bit you mean.

The part about Takua, who had recently lost his memories, seeing those two warnings and it probably helping alert him that he should get away from the Bohrok when they hatch, when nobody else was around to tell him. Other Matoran had plenty of time to hear by whatever means such warnings (like wake one wake all... something shaped like this thing is bad... etc.) or even if not, be told by the Turaga as soon as the Bohrok awake, but for Takua it could matter right away. Come to think of it, this even might tip us off to a solution to another longstanding mystery -- that bubble and the key to it. Vakama's visions would explain Onewa making sure to give that key to Takua. Hm...

 

It's obviously foreshadowing by the makers, but that's not an in-story reason.

In a story where destiny plays such an important role, sure it is. They even had Takua have a vision about the Bohrok at the Ko one, if bad memory serves...

 

He wanders into the nest then barely escapes with the help of the chisel thing Onewa gave him. The warnings made no difference whatsoever to anything that happened there.

You don't know that. All we know is he saw the warnings, and he reacted that way. The idea that the warnings made no difference doesn't make sense, frankly. You would have to see how he would behave without seeing them.

 

For example, would he know they were bad? Maybe he'd think they were allies the Makuta had imprisoned, and he'd just set them free. Walk up and try to befriend them, get mistaken for "in the way" and get Krana'd. (Or perhaps acidified if he did the wrong things in reaction to a failure of that working.) But "Beware the swarms" (these look swarmish!) and "Wake one you wake them all" would get him really scared I'd think (of course, it would be frightening anyways the way they launched out en masse, but yeah), and "beware" especially would warn him to keep his wits about him, and seek a way out.

 

I meant stone carving, which requires a hammer

So? Then whoever set out to carve it would bring one. Actually, an ice pick would suffice, and we know Matoro carries one out there. Nuju's pick would work. And since you wanted it to be Vakama doing it, his firestaff perhaps. But any MU character will carve on tablets, so it could be anybody.

 

Keep in mind also we saw such a carving near Ta-Koro, as a warning totem, in MOL (and it happened to be carved on the surface of the rock Toa Onewa had encased the Mask of Light in). Jaller and/or Takua (I think Takua... doesn't matter) treated it as a normal thing to see around the Wahi. It could be that Po-Matoran were at some point enlisted to put up warning totems in dangerous areas, and later the Turaga/Matoro decided to etch one of the Bohrok warnings on the base.

 

The Wall of Prophecy was just etching letters onto a surface.

No it wasn't -- the Wall itself wasn't made by the island camouflage system. Matoran had to make it. And notice another face carving at the same location:

 

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/b/b5/Sanctum.PNG

Edited November 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[Kopekemaster]

Okay. Let's assume for a minute Turaga Vakama made these warnings (or got someone else to). That doesn't really end the question. How did he learn about it? For that matter, where do all the "prophecies" in Bionicle come from?

[Iblis]

 How did he learn about it?

 

Well there were Bohrok in the Great Archives, so I don't see why the Turaga couldn't have been aware of them... +mysterious prophecies.

[bonesiii]

Okay. Let's assume for a minute Turaga Vakama made these warnings (or got someone else to). That doesn't really end the question. How did he learn about it?

First, keep in mind it's canon fact that he did know about it. How he knew is not that important, but seems pretty clearly to have been his visions. At least the extra details beyond just "there's these things in these nests" which they witnessed as Toa. In any event, we do also know he has visions. So it's not a stretch in the slightest to put two and two together here.

[Kopekemaster]

 

 

In any event, we do also know he has visions.

That's just the problem, though; how does he have visions?

[Regitnui]

The same way most people in fiction have visions. Audiovisual hallucinations. Or at least, that's while he was a Toa.

[Iblis]

...

Why in-universe does Vakama have visions? & what (in-universe) causes them?

An anticookie for those that say "destiny"

[Ballom Nom Nom]

...

Why in-universe does Vakama have visions? & what (in-universe) causes them?

An anticookie for those that say "destiny"

Lazy writing for plot convenience causes them.

 

~B~

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

...

Why in-universe does Vakama have visions? & what (in-universe) causes them?

An anticookie for those that say "destiny"

Lazy writing for plot convenience causes them.

 

~B~

 

 

He is the fire-spitter, and thusly, he does the dream-sharing.

 

weird visions have always been vakama's thing.

 

those, and lying.

[bonesiii]

That's just the problem, though; how does he have visions?

That's not a problem. This is why that "Bionicle isn't pure science fiction" misconception being proposed in the discussion topic for that project is so relevant to understand. By saying it's a problem you're assuming you were ever meant to know how it works. But in a story where a wizard sees glimpses of the future, is that a problem?

 

Subjectively, if you have a preference that says you must understand every detail for you to enjoy a story, then sure, it could be. But that's just personal taste. And it forgets that a story set in the middle ages would not explain how quarks hold atoms together, in order for the atoms to continue doing that just fine. The idea that you must understand all the irrelevant little details in a story is just arbitrary. Now I'm speaking as a guy who loves stories that try to get as close to that as possible, and I have theories to that end in my retelling. But my preferring them doesn't make that objectively better, or stories that don't do it objectively a problem. (My retelling is aimed at a different audience than canon Bionicle.)

 

So once you understand that Bionicle was intentionally in a genre that didn't explain everything, you can understand that this isn't a problem. (In fact, it was in part a mystery story, so even some things that were meant to later be explained were not going to be spoonfed to the reader; the truth behind them would only come up if it was relevant in-story and if they had a means to discover it. Vakama doesn't know how it works.)

 

Note: We have been told that some sort of "glitch" gave him access to them, though. (But some critics wrongly mistake this for an explanation. A code glitch giving access to a weatherman's computer doesn't explain how the computer predicts the weather. )

 

 

And BTW, yes, it's destiny... Iblis, your statement there apparently makes no sense. (Or at least it's probably the same sort of thing as what destiny in Bionicle normally refers to.) That reads as nothing but bias to me. (And odd bias, personally, but I'm sure that's my taste talking. ) Destiny is just a word that describes whatever mechanisms/physics/magic/whatever-label makes the predictions work. Theorized probably to have something to do with protodermis since the Vahi is made of proto, etc. Basically a power that he wasn't supposed to have access to, but accidentally does. ("Accidentally." )

[Kopekemaster]

 

 

But in a story where a wizard sees glimpses of the future, is that a problem?

No, because in such stories, there's a system of magic that, in some form or other, allows for prophecies and stuff to be made. With the exception of maybe some interpretation of the Rode (possibly) and the Mask of Clairvoyance, there isn't really much of a system for this to happen in.

 

 

 

Subjectively, if you have a preference that says you must understand every detail for you to enjoy a story, then sure, it could be. But that's just personal taste. And it forgets that a story set in the middle ages would not explain how quarks hold atoms together, in order for the atoms to continue doing that just fine. The idea that you must understand all the irrelevant little details in a story is just arbitrary.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that dismissing everything as "destiny" and, basically, just because he can might be missing out on something.

 

Now, obviously, I'm completely, and willingly, utterly over-analyzing this. I know there probably will never be a true "answer" to how Vakama can do that. But that doesn't mean we can't come up with ideas about it, eh? (Of course, this all has deviated somewhat from the actual topic question.)

[bonesiii]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that dismissing everything as "destiny"

Two big problems here:

 

1) "Dismissing". That is just bias speaking, apparently. It's the exact same logic that could be used against a medieval story about people made of matter that they're "dismissing" all the materials as held together somehow without explaining that they're made of electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks, etc. I don't accept that as a fair description of what we do when we talk about destiny in a story anymore than it would be for elemental powers or anything else.

 

2) "Everything"... but I presume that was intentional hyperbole.

 

But that doesn't mean we can't come up with ideas about it, eh?

Of course you can. Why would you need to ask, since I just said I have?

 

Edit: Forgot to reply to this part... since frankly it seemed so off the wall (no offense though) it almost didn't seem to need a reply:

 

No, because in such stories, there's a system of magic that, in some form or other, allows for prophecies and stuff to be made. With the exception of maybe some interpretation of the Rode (possibly) and the Mask of Clairvoyance, there isn't really much of a system for this to happen in.

Everybody here has been using the words for the system -- destiny. And related, powers. Protodermis, etc. But this is a little wrong -- if a wizard sees glimpses of the future in a normal fantasy story, the reader isn't told how the system works; that's why it's fantasy. Well, they'll be told some parts of it, like we have been about Bionicle powers. But that "somehow" gap where you bridge the distance of explanation between the effects and the minimal parts that are explained, is never explained. Especially if the style of storytelling is "all mystery until characters learn the truth" like Bionicle -- LOST, etc. (Desmond for example.)

 

And don't forget that Vakama isn't the only one to get visions; he just seems to have a quirk where he gets them regularly. Visions as a part of the outworking of destiny have been in Bionicle since the original comics and MNOG. Gali received one of the Toa Kaita, and Takua received one about the Bohrok just after seeing the Ko pedestal the topic's talking about, for example. In fact those two also later use "visions" as a sort of talking between them.

Edited November 22, 2014 by bonesiii

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I like to think Vakama made them as a Toa, guided by mysterious forces via his visions by either Mata Nui or a mysterious outside force (this would also explain the spirit stars on the surface of Mata Nui's face and the 'coincidental' things that happened outside of the Great Spirit, like the birth of the Inika).

 

Perhaps Vakama had a vision of a wanderer travelling through these areas (while not knowing who it is) and put them there, at the appropriate height, sensing great importance about this but unbeknownst to the visions true design.