Bahrag, Toa of Light?

[Toa Malachives]

I don't have the best grounding for this theory but here is the gist of it:

So we all know that Av-Matoran evolve into bohrok but do Toa of Light evolve and if so what into? I reckon yes, into the Bahrag. The idea came from the have that Toa are sort of like leaders to the Matoran and the fact that the Bahrag are the leaders of the swarm. It does have a few holes, like what Turaga would become and what the Va would come from (which are questions that could have their own topics themselves). Just throwing some ideas around.

[Munty]

An interesting theory... Personally I've never really understood the whole Av Matoran > Bohrok process. I know it was included in a comic or something (?) during the Karda Nui Arc but was it ever fully eplained? Do they EVOLVE into Bohrok? I thought it was simply what happened to them when they got very old and essentially 'died'. But don't all the other inhabitants of the MU that die get taken to the red star? And when the Av-Matoran become Bohrok, do they have active krana and therefore retain consciousness or do their bodies simply become the empty mechanical shells of the Bohrok? I seem to recall it's the latter but can't remember eactly how the story pans out (doesn't a matoran sacrifice themself in Karda Nui to help the toa and then become a Bohrok shell?) Also how many av-matoran eventually become Bohrok? Is it all of them or just some? Are otehr Av-matoran taken by the red star on death like the rest of the MU? Will they eventually run out of Av-Matoran if some are becoming bohrok? As there's no way to replace them once they're gone ecept the red star and I don't think it takes bohrok... 

 

ANYWAY, as far as the theory being proposed, would the Toa of Light become something Bohroky or would they simply sacrifice their powers like other Toa and become Turaga of light? There are only those two Bahrag right? Or am I letting my mind be clouded by the set instead of the story and are there more out there? If there ARE only two then I would suggest they were created by the great beings and no MU being could 'become' one as you only need two... Also, weren't there thousands of Bohrok already built into the MU that were NEVER Av-Matoran? I mean didn't someone just literally build most of them? And then there were a bunch of Av-Matoran converts who turned up as a sort of local regiment of the Bohrok swarms. All seems a bit far-fetched and unnecessary to me (IF I have my facts right so far) 

 

Think I'll leave it there for now, I should be doing important stuff right now and clearly I'm not

 

Edit : What about the fohrok? Who made them, wasn't it the makuta? So did the Makuta also have something to do with the bohrok swarms?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Munty

[Chro]

Doubtful, though it is an interesting idea.
I think the problem with Bohrok related theories and questions is that we can't go too terribly in-depth because of how much we don't know about them. We know that old (or "destined") Av-Matoran transform into Bohrok shells, but we don't know where the heck the Va or Bahrag come from.

Munty: pretty sure the Fohrok were robotic imitations of Bohrok, not real ones.

[Munty]

Munty: pretty sure the Fohrok were robotic imitations of Bohrok, not real ones.

 

Thanks Chro, it's been a long time since I went through most of the story and I'm pretty sure there's still more I've never seen at all I know they didn't have Krana and were essentially robotic as you say but who made them? Is it possible they had links with the creators of the real Bohrok shells? Seems unlikely the two creations would be completely unrelated... Was there any further information about 'destined' av-Matoran? What happened in the recorded case we see in Karda Nui?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Munty

[Jacks]

@Munty: The Fohrok were made by the Brotherhood of Makuta, reverse-engineered from dormant Bohrok. The Bohrok shells themselves did not have creators.

 

@Chro: I believe the Va were entirely mechanical?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Jacks

[Iblis]

@Chro: I believe the Va were entirely mechanical?

 

They are entirely mechanical but so are normal Bohrok except for the Krana.

 

Personally I've never really understood the whole Av Matoran > Bohrok process.

...

but was it ever fully explained?

This pretty much sums it up

 

I thought it was simply what happened to them when they got very old and essentially 'died'. But don't all the other inhabitants of the MU that die get taken to the red star? And when the Av-Matoran become Bohrok, do they have active krana and therefore retain consciousness or do their bodies simply become the empty mechanical shells of the Bohrok? I seem to recall it's the latter but can't remember exactly how the story pans out

...

Also how many av-matoran eventually become Bohrok? Is it all of them or just some? Are other Av-matoran taken by the red star on death like the rest of the MU? Will they eventually run out of Av-Matoran if some are becoming bohrok? As there's no way to replace them once they're gone except the red star and I don't think it takes Bohrok... 

And this was why I thought it was one of the most poorly executed aspects of Bionicle lore; [Matoran -> Toa -> Turaga] of Light, only progressing from Matoran to Toa if 'destined', other Matoran become Bohrok - of either 6 different 'Elements', so random division point their okay, & oh wait the Bohrok itself is entirely mechanical, so does the Matorans 'mind' & biological parts become the Krana - & they then join some massive hive mind or just lose a lot of their 'intelligence', or..? How do they repopulate Av-Matoran, I guess they don't, which would fit with their numbers being low et cetera.

 

ANYWAY, as far as the theory being proposed, would the Toa of Light become something Bohroky or would they simply sacrifice their powers like other Toa and become Turaga of light? There are only those two Bahrag right? Or am I letting my mind be clouded by the set instead of the story and are there more out there? If there ARE only two then I would suggest they were created by the great beings and no MU being could 'become' one as you only need two... Also, weren't there thousands of Bohrok already built into the MU that were NEVER Av-Matoran? 

(We saw an Alternate Universe Takanuva as a Turaga, so I think it's safe to say normal Toa to Turaga interactions in Universe Prime)

I'm almost entirely positive that it wasn't even so much as hinted as their being more than 2 Bahrag. I suspect they're unique.

& yes there were certainly Bohrok with no previous Matoran life.

 

I wonder how many other purposes the Bohrok could have been planned to do considering the Bohrok Swarm arc ran on them/Cahdok&Gahdok not having been given any other instructions other than to clean. Maybe they would have been given other instructions from Mata Nui or a subroutine (etc.) had Teridax not interfered & a different situation had arisen.

 

Maybe they thought the Bohrok Va were less likely to be damaged so they didn't need such a large restoration system that the Av-Matoran -> Bohrok had... So many strange things....

[fishers64]

The Bahrag were created by the Great Beings. The GBs could have used Toa of Light and transformed them, but why would they? Seems unlikely.

[Padaster]

And we still don't know what Krana are made from.

[bonesiii]

I think it was confirmed that Takanuva was the very first Toa of Light... Wasn't it? (It's my mem tho...)

 

But don't all the other inhabitants of the MU that die get taken to the red star?

Whether all the others do is a tricky subject, but also information you don't need here. All you need to know is that Av-Matoran, when they reach that point in their lives, anyways, don't.

 

when the Av-Matoran become Bohrok, do they have active krana

Either that, or they get one right away after being teleported to the nests. Always good to check BS01 in case they mention things like this; they don't always but at least you'll have tried... and this time it paid off:

 

Once the transformation is complete, they are then teleported to the Bohrok Nests to be fitted with Krana.

 

doesn't a matoran sacrifice themself in Karda Nui to help the toa and then become a Bohrok shell?

I don't recall the one that was seen having sacrificed himself in any way. It's just something that happens at a set time in their life; their equivalent of the end result of old age. (And I reviewed this part recentlyish for writing my version.)

 

Also how many av-matoran eventually become Bohrok? Is it all of them or just some?

Well, Takua is the oldest Matoran, and he never did. He was also destined to be a Toa. It may be that Toa-destined ones never do. I'm not sure, though.

 

Will they eventually run out of Av-Matoran if some are becoming bohrok? As there's no way to replace them

Not sure we know that. Other Matoran types could be replaced with those mysterious machines. I would think there was at least one for Av-Matoran... somewhere... (But probably not in Karda Nui, I'd guess... unless it's mobile and they bring it with them?)

 

Also, weren't there thousands of Bohrok already built into the MU that were NEVER Av-Matoran?

BS01 says:

 

 

All Bohrok were once Av-Matoran.

 

All seems a bit far-fetched and unnecessary to me (IF I have my facts right so far)

Well... okay. I'm aware a lot of people have felt the Av-Matoran thing is creepy. I don't know about far fetched though. From the GBs' perspective, they're all AIs, and they knew the Bohrok might need replacements. They wouldn't have found it creepy because full sapience wasn't planned. It probably seemed more like caterpillars and butterflies to them. Not really sure why they couldn't just have "spawners" (as I've called the machines) for Bohrok directly... but then maybe they thought Av-Matoran could better upkeep their Spawners (Bohrok aren't great at keeping things from destruction lol).

 

What about the fohrok? Who made them, wasn't it the makuta?

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Fohrok

 

So did the Makuta also have something to do with the bohrok swarms?

No.

 

And we still don't know what Krana are made from.

Actually we know enough to know that what we don't know, we don't need to know ():

 

The original Krana were created by the Great Beings from the remains of the process which created the first Matoran that had been made. They exposed the remains to Energized Protodermis. The mixture turned into not only Krana, but also Zyglak.

So, whatever it was originally, the EP would transform it into Krana and Zyglak. So could be anything, from perhaps spare organic muscle material (maybe), to some kind of raw protodermis, to even some scrap metal lol.

[Pomegranate]

I was under the impression that it was some element of Karda Nui that triggered the transformation? 

As for all Bohrok once being Av Matoran, the Bohrok swarms didn't get released on Mata Nui until a hundred thousands years into the MU's history; it's possible that the Av Matoran did indeed slowly turn to Bohrok over time, the same way it takes time for an immune system to properly develop in a newborn. 

[NorikSigma]

Pretty sure that it was their destiny mechanism working, not the Karda Nui enviro.

[Regitnui]

The original Krana were created by the Great Beings from the remains of the process which created the first Matoran that had been made. They exposed the remains to Energized Protodermis. The mixture turned into not only Krana, but also Zyglak.

So, whatever it was originally, the EP would transform it into Krana and Zyglak. So could be anything, from perhaps spare organic muscle material (maybe), to some kind of raw protodermis, to even some scrap metal lol.

My personal theory is that the Krana are made from raw lumps of organic proto. They're the 'natural' result of proto-based life, and why they are related to Matoran (which were engineered) and Zyglak (which were unintentional products of the process).

[Padaster]

Yeah, it's just Krana really pique my curiosity. I can understand why they didn't reveal their true nature, though, as it would probably have been another anti climax.

[Takametru007]

I feel like this aspect of the canon wasn't very well thought out...we should rewrite it.

But, respecting the canon, I think the Bahrag are just their own creature, who are destined to rule over undead Av-Matoran who turned all Bohroky.

 

And to answer the Krana origin questions, they were made by dipping certain Kanohi into energized protodermis. Why did they turn into Krana instead of Nuva masks? I dunno...destiny? We'll go with that.

[bonesiii]

And to answer the Krana origin questions, they were made by dipping certain Kanohi into energized protodermis.

Since you're wording this as certain, what source did you get this from? As I showed above, BS01 doesn't say it was Kanohi.

[fishers64]

I think it was confirmed that Takanuva was the very first Toa of Light... Wasn't it? (It's my mem tho...)

 

8. How many Toa of Light are/were there, or is Takanuva the only one?

 

8) Takanuva is the only one, ever

 

Bam.

Edited November 20, 2014 by fishers64

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

But could it make sense that, akin to the Matoran-Toa transformation, the evolution of the Bohrok is the Bahrag or something like that? The equivalent to a Toa of Light. 

 

-NotS

[Toa Malachives]

 

I think it was confirmed that Takanuva was the very first Toa of Light... Wasn't it? (It's my mem tho...)

 

 

8. How many Toa of Light are/were there, or is Takanuva the only one?

 

8) Takanuva is the only one, ever

 

 

Bam.

Yes but there is nothing to say that there isn't more that were wiped out by the Makuta or maybe turned into Bahrag, Tannma turned into one just fine in the alternate universe where Mata Nui died.

[Jacks]

Yes but there is nothing to say that there isn't more that were wiped out by the Makuta or maybe turned into Bahrag

Yes there is. Greg didn't say Takanuva is the only Toa of Light who currently exists, he said that Takanuva is the only one who has ever existed.

 

Tannma turned into one just fine in the alternate universe where Mata Nui died.

Well yeah, nobody is disputing the ability of Av-Matoran to become Toa, just the fact that, except for Takua, none in the prime universe have.

[fishers64]

5. Are the Bahrag a type of bohrok?

 

5) No

 

* * * 

3. Are the Bahrag robots?

 

3) No 

 16where did the bahrag come from?

16) Created by the Great Beings

Edited November 20, 2014 by fishers64

[Dorek]

The Bahrag were actually created by the GB's, so it's unlikely. And since we see Takanuva as a Turaga in an AU, it proves that his eventual destiny will lead him to become a Turaga, not anything else.

 

Cute idea, though. Would make a nice fanfic.

[Regitnui]

Cute idea, though. Would make a nice fanfic.

Sounds Kafkaesque: "One day, I woke up and realized I was turning into a Bahrag."

[Ballom Nom Nom]

 

Cute idea, though. Would make a nice fanfic.

Sounds Kafkaesque: "One day, I woke up and realized I was turning into a Bahrag."

I think overall in addition to the other problems it brings with it, Av-Matoran being turned into Bohrok sounds very much like an I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream scenario. What's that, you were once a carefree Matoran with free will? Well now you get to be turned into a robot controlled by a parasitic creature, only being used to fight your former friends who want to stop your new mission to cleanse all things. You are now alone. For eternity.

 

Sounds like an interesting fanfic premise though.

 

~B~

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ballom

[Regitnui]

The Bohrok machine has no free will or memory of its own. The Av-Matoran 'dies' in the process of transforming, so RandomTahnok#2974 does not remember challenging his friends RandomLehvak#4492 and RandomNuhvok#1842 to a spirited game of Dodge the Avokah 2.5 million years ago.

[fishers64]

The Bohrok machine has no free will or memory of its own. The Av-Matoran 'dies' in the process of transforming, so RandomTahnok#2974 does not remember challenging his friends RandomLehvak#4492 and RandomNuhvok#1842 to a spirited game of Dodge the Avokah 2.5 million years ago.

No, it would only be 99,999 years ago.

 

Still, this is probably true. Kinda dark for a kid's toyline. 

[Ballom Nom Nom]

The Bohrok machine has no free will or memory of its own. The Av-Matoran 'dies' in the process of transforming, so RandomTahnok#2974 does not remember challenging his friends RandomLehvak#4492 and RandomNuhvok#1842 to a spirited game of Dodge the Avokah 2.5 million years ago.

Well, given the alternative, that sounds merciful. And yes, what a bright and cheery topic for a kid's toy's storyline! Imagine the sales pitch had this been known in 2002. Highlights of the Bohrok include headbutting, rolling up into a ball, and being the transformed corpse of some hapless villager.

 

~B~

[Taka Nuvia]

 

Cute idea, though. Would make a nice fanfic.

Sounds Kafkaesque: "One day, I woke up and realized I was turning into a Bahrag."

 

'though for true Kafka-esque-ness you would already be the Bahrag upon waking up.

 

But imagine something went wrong during the process. Sentience not fully lost.

One way or another, I find the whole Av-matoran>Borhrok thing scarily fascinating. In a good way.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Fairy Paladin

[Munty]

8. How many Toa of Light are/were there, or is Takanuva the only one?
 
8) Takanuva is the only one, ever

 

I think this is the first time I've ever quoted Greg Canon Seems to be a very restrictive quote, though I guess it depends on interpretation. We KNOW Takanuva was the first Toa of Light ever as the Makuta only feared them as a concept before this. So even without Greg confirming this it was already the generally accepted theory I think... However, the addition of the word EVER can be taken one of two ways. It could either mean EVER 'up until present day MU' or it could mean EVER 'in the entire scope of time'. I'd like to think it was the former and that now there can be more Toa of Light. I would hypothesise that perhaps there can only be one at a time but since Takanuva never dies or sacrifices his powers that would still prevent us having any more which is both boring and limiting in terms of EU Toa...

 

But could it make sense that, akin to the Matoran-Toa transformation, the evolution of the Bohrok is the Bahrag or something like that? The equivalent to a Toa of Light. 

 

-NotS

 

As was mentioned in another quote, Greg states the Bahrag are NOT robots while the Bohrok are known to be mechanical. That would make any form of evolution impossible as machines don't generally do that sort of thing... Devolution from Av-Matoran to Bohrok is one thing as it's almost like taking a living creature back to the bones, returning life to something like a bohrok would be a whole different matter.

 

Perhaps, if people really wanted an explanation for this, we could say a new Bahrag can be created by a Bohrok Kaita being submerged in EP following the death/destruction of one of the existing queens. They could stay in there a while and 'pupate' then emerge as a new Bahrag perhaps... After all, what would happen to the swarm without the Bahrag? They ARE an integral part of the GSRs operating system after all so there must be something in place to repair the system if it fails...

 

The Bahrag were actually created by the GB's, so it's unlikely. And since we see Takanuva as a Turaga in an AU, it proves that his eventual destiny will lead him to become a Turaga, not anything else.

Cute idea, though. Would make a nice fanfic.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Toa became Turaga AFTER they have fulfilled their destiny, not as part of it. After all, if his destiny was to become a Turaga then he would have simply become one immediately on becoming a Toa right? Boom, destiny fulfilled! I always assumed Takanuva's destiny was to thwart Makuta, which he did. Let's face it, the entire storyline hinged on him becoming a ToL and saving the day after all. If that's not his intended destiny then it should have been! Also I've seen it written in various places that Toa do not simply become Turaga, they must choose to give up their powers in order to do this. So it's quite possible that Takanuva's destiny WAS to thwart Makuta and he just isn't ready to give up his Toa powers yet. After all, would YOU?!

[bonesiii]

Munty, notice the question says "are/were"? Greg wasn't being asked about the future, so he wasn't answering about the future. "Ever" means from the present all through the past.

 

So it just means, no Bahrag as ex-Toa. Doesn't mean no possible future Toa Tanma.

 

 

Also, you seem to have taken Dorek's phrasing as saying Takanuva's destiny is to become a Turaga. Not what he said; he said that his destiny would lead him to become a Turaga. And Greg said his destiny has yet to be fulfilled, if memory serves. Yes, however, assuming fulfilling your destiny doesn't happen to include sacrificing your Toa Energy (as it did for Lhikan and the Toa Metru), then it is possible to fulfill your destiny but remain a Toa. Dorek also didn't seem to mean that; he just meant that if he becomes anything it'll be a Turaga, not a Bohrok.

[Dorek]

I was sort of skirting around the issue of "Velika not technically being a GB in that universe", since that throws a wrench into the idea of destiny. But essentially, yes, in terms of "BIONICLE physics", it shows that Takanuva has the capacity to become a Turaga, rather than a Bohrok/Bahrag.

 

Then again, maybe there's an AU where Takua turns into a Bohrok; gets a little murky, doesn't it?

[Banana Gunz]

I was never really into the idea that the Av-matoran could turn into Bohrok. It was just a needless detail which didn't make much sense. I can see the logic for toa of light being able to turn into Bahrag, but as others have said there's some but not enough evidence for this. And anyway the last thing I want to happen is Takanuva turning into one of those crazy things.

[Archon~]

I think Greg addressed before that Avtoran destiny goes in 2 directions: some turn into Toa, others go Bohrok. There's no cross between the two. The Bahrag twins were created as unique beings in the Matoran Universe, similarly to Umbra. No species, and no other beings of their kind.

[Wrinkledlion X]

I've always liked the Av-Matoran-into-Bohrok thing, but it only just occurred to me how unsustainable it is. Weren't there millions of Bohrok? Where did they get that many dead Av-Matoran?

[emily]

I've always liked the Av-Matoran-into-Bohrok thing, but it only just occurred to me how unsustainable it is. Weren't there millions of Bohrok? Where did they get that many dead Av-Matoran?

Wherever the heck Matoran came from, presumably. But there was a really weird, arbitrary restriction on Greg's part as to saying where they came from (I think he said that he wanted to preserve an air of mystery. Because refusing to share a relatively inconsequential background detail preserves the mystery of the core story?), so we'll never know.

[UnderscoreChronix]

Perhaps Av-Turaga become Bohrok-Va?

[Jacks]

That couldn't be, as the prime universe has never had any Av-Turaga, and yet there are more than enough Bohrok Va

[Archon~]

No they don't. Bohrok Va were created by the Great Beings. Only some Avtoran turn into Bohrok. The one that head down the Toa-Turaga part become that: Toa and Turaga.

Again, Bahrag and Bohrok Va were created by the Great Beings, as they are in their current forms.

It's all on BS01 idk why there's any discussion about things that were established as fact, like 5+ years ago. Instead, we should be trying to wrap up some loose ends in Gen1, not make up new theories and clutter the already complicated story.

[Iblis]

Instead, we should be trying to wrap up some loose ends in Gen1, not make up new theories and clutter the already complicated story.

 

That seems somewhat narrow minded to me; just because something is old and somewhat convoluted doesn't mean we should avoid creating questions if someone felt that the question wasn't answered or was unclear; the question wasn't totally unfounded.

 

As it is BS01 doesn't tend to have many inline citations; which is a possible cause for people not necessarily being sure of whether something was misinterpreted; & precisely because it is old people are less likely to be checking over such a large number of different articles (& across a given articles entirety; especially when it contains threads from early 2000, & late 2000 with little in between...).

Edited November 24, 2014 by Iblis

[Munty]

No they don't. Bohrok Va were created by the Great Beings. Only some Avtoran turn into Bohrok. The one that head down the Toa-Turaga part become that: Toa and Turaga.

Again, Bahrag and Bohrok Va were created by the Great Beings, as they are in their current forms.

It's all on BS01 idk why there's any discussion about things that were established as fact, like 5+ years ago. Instead, we should be trying to wrap up some loose ends in Gen1, not make up new theories and clutter the already complicated story.

 

If BS01 told you to jump off a bridge would you do it? Wikis aren't always right you know. And who cares if BS01 said it? Do you think anyone out there is currently saying "it said that on BZP so it must be true"? If you don't want to be involved in the conversation then you don't need to be by any means! [to clarify - who cares if BS01 said it and it's not officially confirmed]

 

I do agree though, Bahrag MUST have been created by the Great beings logically. But then why create them without having some pre-eisting Bohrok too? Not much call for Bohrok Queens in a universe with no Bohrok. Did they just sit around for thousands of years waiting for Av-matoran to die? Why do Av-Matoran die anyway? Other matoran seem to be essentially immortal don't they? So how long do Av-Matoran live eactly? And if they live  amount of years and they were all created at the same time (by the GBs) then that would mean they would all die within the space of a few years right as they're all the same age? None of it makes any sense... The more you think about it, the less sense it makes in fact.

 

I think the original question of Toa of Light/Bahrag needs to be replaced with Av-matoran/bohrok as that's just as strange a concept. It doesn't really fit with anything at all.

 

Also, if we're saying that Av-matoran either become Toa or Bohrok, how come the ones who become Toa don't die? Does an Av-matoran just cross their fingers till they hit 999 and then if they don't die they become a toa or something? And if these Av-Matoran all die to become the Bohrok (many thousands of Bohrok!) where do their replacements come from? The question keeps being asked but not being answered. Look at the size of standard populations in the MU, very few Matoran anywhere, yet thousands of Av-Matorans for some reason. That means there were more Av-Matoran on day 1 than all the Bohrok in eistence. Could you really accomodate thousands of them in Karda Nui? And why would you? There wouldn't be a purpose for that many of them so were the GBs just creating them for the sole purpose of their being Bohrok one day? How depressing, that makes Karda Nui a bit like a cattle ranch doesn't it?

 

Something that may work is this: perhaps only the physical form of the Av-Matoran becomes the Bohrok (at some point for some reason) and the Matoran consciousness itself is taken to the red-star as normal. There it is given a new physical form and returned to Karda Nui to begin the cycle again. Doesn't really eplain how Takua is a million years old though...

 

And how do the new Bohrok get from Kara Nui to the Hives in the GSR head??? They have no krana so can't take themselves and you don't see a load of Bohrok Va wandering around Karda Nui! Do the still living Av-Matoran take them on this journey somehow? Does noone in Metru-Nui wonder what these things are that keep rolling through the city?

Edited November 24, 2014 by Munty

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I am sure that there is an automatic sensor in the brain of the Great Spirit, that once a new bohrok has been created, it teleports it to the Bohrok hive.

 

I like the idea behind a Bohrok Kaita dipped in natural protodermis creating a Bahrag, but I like the current canon standing even more.