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Or another misconception: BIONICLE isn't sci-fi.

https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/11561219#M256635

 

To quote, "1) BIONICLE was a mystical story that I turned into a sci-fi story.

False. BIONICLE was always a sci-fi story - it was always about beings who were supposed to be (or were) living inside a giant robot. That was from day one. You just didn't know it at the start. And it was governed by a story team, I did not have the power to change its genre."

 

 

That a creator doesn't understand common definitions for a word doesn't a good argument make?

That he isn't definitively wrong isn't helping either; as fundamentally 

fiction based on imagined future scientific or technological advances and major social or environmental changes, frequently portraying space or time travel and life on other planets.

Gets kind of wonky because it appears to assume or imply that the setting is still fundamentally closer to our universes ...wait no; that's me reading into it! Additioanly, a definiton of Fantasy;

a genre of imaginative fiction involving magic and adventure, especially in a setting other than the real world.

Isn't mutually exclusive; & him saying it's Sci-Fi doesn't mean it can't be that and something else.

 

So whilst that might all be entirely compatible with what your saying; if someones going to make a statement about Bionicles genre, this is relevant. :3

 

[i still think the debate isn't that useful as regardless of how much as genre-labels are integral to a story; you get a better understanding from actually getting into the story; most of the time people debating this point have already gotten into it, & generally they aren't arguing the nature of the, say, hardness r softness of Bionicles magic or physiscs, but rather definitions. ...Which aren't that interesting in and of themselves.]

 

Edit: I think I hate this input system.

Edited by Iblis

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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The most glaring misconception: BIONICLE is sci-fi.

I know right? I always have to explain that it is a science-fantasy work, akin to legendariums like DC, Marvel, Star Wars, and Masters of the Universe. (Sometimes Doctor Who crosses into this genre but I never mention it lest I be verbally mauled by time traveling faux-norman huscarls from Planet X)

I've always disliked the label of "science fantasy", since it's just an excuse to set a plotline IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE and then proceed to blatantly ignore every field of science. But, then again, that describes BIONICLE pretty aptly.

But when we have cyborgs running around shooting shooting fireballs and flying and doing all sorts of physically impossible things, including violating conservation of energy at every turn, of course fields of science are ignored. I don't think people argue that works with elemental superheroes aren't fantasy, and Bionicle is that plus cyborgs. Actually, I think calling Bionicle only fantasy would be sufficient, because it follows no rules of science to speak of.

 

~B~

 

*Kahu wing gets smashed by Nui-Rama*

 

*Kahu falls out of the sky*

 

*A throwing disk hits you*

 

And that's the beginning, with gravity and force X mass = acceleration. In fact, good old gravity is why Mata Nui crashed on Aqua Magna in the first place, instead of floating aimlessly around out there. Without gravity, there would be no Bionicle. 

 

I'm no physicist, and I can tell you those are scientific laws. Witness how no green jungle plants grow on Mt. Ihu - now we have one of the basic tenets of biology, which last I checked is a science. Witness that Matoran have organic lungs and need to breathe as a result. And that's before I factor all the tenets of psychology that Matoran, Toa, and others exhibit. You may argue that that's not a science, but I'm pretty confident that it is (and that wouldn't null the other examples of physics and biology even if it wasn't).  

 

Yes, they did change a whole lot of stuff. But a lot of basic principles of science are still present. Anything else is insane. 

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The most glaring misconception: BIONICLE is sci-fi.

I know right? I always have to explain that it is a science-fantasy work, akin to legendariums like DC, Marvel, Star Wars, and Masters of the Universe. (Sometimes Doctor Who crosses into this genre but I never mention it lest I be verbally mauled by time traveling faux-norman huscarls from Planet X)
I've always disliked the label of "science fantasy", since it's just an excuse to set a plotline IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE and then proceed to blatantly ignore every field of science. But, then again, that describes BIONICLE pretty aptly.
But when we have cyborgs running around shooting fireballs and flying and doing all sorts of physically impossible things, including violating conservation of energy at every turn, of course fields of science are ignored. I don't think people argue that works with elemental superheroes aren't fantasy, and Bionicle is that plus cyborgs. Actually, I think calling Bionicle only fantasy would be sufficient, because it follows no rules of science to speak of.

~B~

*Kahu wing gets smashed by Nui-Rama*

 

*Kahu falls out of the sky*

 

*A throwing disk hits you*

 

And that's the beginning, with gravity and force X mass = acceleration. In fact, good old gravity is why Mata Nui crashed on Aqua Magna in the first place, instead of floating aimlessly around out there. Without gravity, there would be no Bionicle.

 

I'm no physicist, and I can tell you those are scientific laws. Witness how no green jungle plants grow on Mt. Ihu - now we have one of the basic tenets of biology, which last I checked is a science. Witness that Matoran have organic lungs and need to breathe as a result. And that's before I factor all the tenets of psychology that Matoran, Toa, and others exhibit. You may argue that that's not a science, but I'm pretty confident that it is (and that wouldn't null the other examples of physics and biology even if it wasn't).

 

Yes, they did change a whole lot of stuff. But a lot of basic principles of science are still present. Anything else is insane.

Okay, so maybe I used an absolute when I shouldn't have. But not all of your examples are valid. A Kahu falling out of the sky can only happen in the MU if Mata Nui exercises control over his internal gravity so that it doesn't float there. Green plants can spontaneously generate in violation of principles of biology if a Toa of Plant Control wants them to do that. In general, my point was that powers suspend the laws of physics and biology when it's convenient (that is, extremely often).

 

~B~

Edited by Ballom
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The bottom line is, it isn't either/or. Like "robots on a tropical island", Bionicle set out (intentionally, from the start) to fuse some science with some fantasy. Yes, the fantasy is "science you don't understand" but this doesn't mean the story writers claimed to understand it either. :P It's still essentially fantasy. Plus science, hence (as Greg called it once) science fantasy.

 

Iblis, I would say this is the answer to your concern -- understanding the intent of the genre helps erase issues that arise when people assume that the writers wanted to do one thing but failed. It helps you understand that they did intend to do what they did. :) Some people assume it was meant to be all mysticism and think the later revealing of some (minimal) science behind some mysteries was a move away from the intent. Others look at the robots (well biomechanical but yeah) being there from the start and think the fantasy is a failing. Both extremes have it wrong.

 

And while that can make Bionicle a weird experience for people -- we're used to one or the other :) -- that was actually basically why they did it. They wanted to blaze a trail, and they did.

 

Not that it's 100% original. :P But still, it was about trying to be somewhat original. Not just LEGO Castle or LEGO space, for example; something with ingredients of both.

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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Okay, so maybe I used an absolute when I shouldn't have. But not all of your examples are valid. A Kahu falling out of the sky can only happen in the MU only if Mata Nui exercises control over his internal gravity so that it doesn't float there. Green plants can spontaneously generate in violation of principles of biology if a Toa of Plant Control wants them to do that. In general, my point was that powers suspend the laws of physics and biology when it's covnenient (that is, extremely often).

~B~

Don't we, as human beings, suspend the laws of biology and physics when it's convenient for us? Like Toa, we are sapient beings that change the environment to suit our purposes. A Toa of the Green just has an easier and faster way of doing it. In order to grow plants on Mt. Ihu, I'd have to use a heated greenhouse with florescent lights, but it could be done - and I have no powers. If a Toa of the Green did it, his power would be faster and more convenient, but it doesn't change that individual effort can suspend certain physical laws - if only for a short time. Airplanes and elevators are more complicated than a Kadin or Miru, but they do the same thing - suspend gravity by providing lift. We just don't have powers, so we have to resort to more complex methods.

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I just mean things like what Greg mentioned in that quote Boidoh posted. :) Mata Nui not literally being (just) a spirit, etc.

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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Okay, so maybe I used an absolute when I shouldn't have. But not all of your examples are valid. A Kahu falling out of the sky can only happen in the MU only if Mata Nui exercises control over his internal gravity so that it doesn't float there. Green plants can spontaneously generate in violation of principles of biology if a Toa of Plant Control wants them to do that. In general, my point was that powers suspend the laws of physics and biology when it's covnenient (that is, extremely often).

~B~

Don't we, as human beings, suspend the laws of biology and physics when it's convenient for us? Like Toa, we are sapient beings that change the environment to suit our purposes. A Toa of the Green just has an easier and faster way of doing it. In order to grow plants on Mt. Ihu, I'd have to use a heated greenhouse with florescent lights, but it could be done - and I have no powers. If a Toa of the Green did it, his power would be faster and more convenient, but it doesn't change that individual effort can suspend certain physical laws - if only for a short time. Airplanes and elevators are more complicated than a Kadin or Miru, but they do the same thing - suspend gravity by providing lift. We just don't have powers, so we have to resort to more complex methods.
That argument makes zero sense. Humans can't suspend physical laws. We can use a proper understanding physics and science to make solutions that work against opposing forces or processes. All of physics still applies, for example, but we can still achieve things. That is completely unrelated to someone waving a hand and magically making gravity go away. I don't see how you can equate machines and technology with impossible fantasy items.

 

~B~

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Okay, so maybe I used an absolute when I shouldn't have. But not all of your examples are valid. A Kahu falling out of the sky can only happen in the MU only if Mata Nui exercises control over his internal gravity so that it doesn't float there. Green plants can spontaneously generate in violation of principles of biology if a Toa of Plant Control wants them to do that. In general, my point was that powers suspend the laws of physics and biology when it's covnenient (that is, extremely often).

~B~

Don't we, as human beings, suspend the laws of biology and physics when it's convenient for us? Like Toa, we are sapient beings that change the environment to suit our purposes. A Toa of the Green just has an easier and faster way of doing it. In order to grow plants on Mt. Ihu, I'd have to use a heated greenhouse with florescent lights, but it could be done - and I have no powers. If a Toa of the Green did it, his power would be faster and more convenient, but it doesn't change that individual effort can suspend certain physical laws - if only for a short time. Airplanes and elevators are more complicated than a Kadin or Miru, but they do the same thing - suspend gravity by providing lift. We just don't have powers, so we have to resort to more complex methods.
That argument makes zero sense. Humans can't suspend physical laws. We can use a proper understanding physics and science to make solutions that work against opposing forces or processes. All of physics still applies, for example, but we can still achieve things. That is completely unrelated to someone waving a hand and magically making gravity go away. I don't see how you can equate machines and technology with impossible fantasy items.

 

~B~

 

I'm not equating it. I'm saying that if science and technology can achieve the same feats as fantastic powers, then the powers have some science involved. We're not creating pink unicorns with these powers, we're creating plants and fooling around with gravity. 

Edited by fishers64
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Okay, so maybe I used an absolute when I shouldn't have. But not all of your examples are valid. A Kahu falling out of the sky can only happen in the MU only if Mata Nui exercises control over his internal gravity so that it doesn't float there. Green plants can spontaneously generate in violation of principles of biology if a Toa of Plant Control wants them to do that. In general, my point was that powers suspend the laws of physics and biology when it's covnenient (that is, extremely often).

~B~

Don't we, as human beings, suspend the laws of biology and physics when it's convenient for us? Like Toa, we are sapient beings that change the environment to suit our purposes. A Toa of the Green just has an easier and faster way of doing it. In order to grow plants on Mt. Ihu, I'd have to use a heated greenhouse with florescent lights, but it could be done - and I have no powers. If a Toa of the Green did it, his power would be faster and more convenient, but it doesn't change that individual effort can suspend certain physical laws - if only for a short time. Airplanes and elevators are more complicated than a Kadin or Miru, but they do the same thing - suspend gravity by providing lift. We just don't have powers, so we have to resort to more complex methods.
That argument makes zero sense. Humans can't suspend physical laws. We can use a proper understanding physics and science to make solutions that work against opposing forces or processes. All of physics still applies, for example, but we can still achieve things. That is completely unrelated to someone waving a hand and magically making gravity go away. I don't see how you can equate machines and technology with impossible fantasy items.

 

~B~

 

I'm not equating it. I'm saying that if science and technology can achieve the same feats as fanastic powers, then the powers have some science involved. We're not creating pink unicorns with these powers, we're creating plants and fooling around with gravity. 

 

But we could create a Pink Unicorn, with sufficient genetic engineering. Yours is an odd distinction. The question is not one of whether we can achieve the same thing as the characters in BIONICLE, but whether we can achieve them in the same manner. I can change my physical location by walking to the corner store, but I can't change my physical location so as to reach, in the space of a minute, a planet thirteen light-years away.

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The argument Ballom put forth was that Bionicle was an entirely fantasy story. I refuted that. 

 

And Quisoves, you are absolutely correct. 

 

 The question is not one of whether we can achieve the same thing as the characters in BIONICLE, but whether we can achieve them in the same manner. 

Thank you. The method is fantastic, the idea scientific. Therefore  there is both science and fantasy in here. Yeesh. 

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Ballom, a couple of things. First, I don't really intend this topic to be a place to hold debates. I did make it pretty open-ended and I'm not saying it's forbidden, but can we please try to refrain from negative hyperbole here? It makes for a hostile environment, and this project is meant in a friendly, informative way. :)

 

Now maybe you didn't mean hyperbole, but I say this because something about your latest post is puzzling at least from how I was reading what you said earlier, and the main reason I'm replying is to point out that you seem to have forgotten something from your earlier word choice that apparently caused the disagreement you just had with fishers above. :) That is this part:

 

That argument makes zero sense.

But you said this in reply to fishers adopting your own style of terminology about "suspending laws" from this post:

 

Green plants can spontaneously generate in violation of principles of biology if a Toa of Plant Control wants them to do that. In general, my point was that powers suspend the laws of physics and biology

I dunno if this needs said or not, while I'm at it, but to be crystal clear (and since this is a rather "just in case" type of project, heh), in normal terms, materializing a plant (whether by imagined futuristic "tech we haven't invented yet" or alternate physics in a different dimension... or whatever) from energy wouldn't really be suspending "laws." If you wanna describe it that way in non technical terms, that's okay, but then "law" is being used in a special way just to mean "normal behavior of how plants grow." In that sense, then, it's perfectly reasonable to also describe planes resting on the ground as following a "law" in the nontechnical sense that heavy things don't fly, but to "suspend" that "law" (or normal behavior) when the right mechanism comes into play.

 

So fishers' statement about that did make sense by your own logic. But then for you to switch gears in the next post and say:

 

Humans can't suspend physical laws.

Would appear to commit the fallacy of equivocation, because now you've switched to another definition of "law" -- apparently the normal laws of physics. (Which you're right, we can't suspend, and hypothetical future tech materializing a plant like a Star Trek replicator would not technically suspend either.)

 

Does that clear things up? :)

 

And a word of advice (this is good advice for anybody, ever) -- if you're having a conversation with somebody and they say something in reply to you that doesn't seem to make sense, make sure you haven't forgotten how you worded what they were replying to. Goes a long way to avoid people getting upset if in fact they replied that way because your own wording naturally would invoke that reply. ^_^

Edited by bonesiii
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The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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Yes it does. Thank you. :)
 
Actually, I didn't just think up that argument (in post #45 of this topic). I retrieved it from memory in response to Ballom - that particular argument that Ballom used reads to me as an environmental science class tenet (read: psuedoscience, not real science) which gives it a "questionable/unreliable sources" warning upon retrieving it. In the ES sciences, it would read as "humans can suspend physical laws for a short time, thereby causing damage to the physical laws of the environment up to the point where the environment cannot repair itself and those physical laws take effect once again."
 
To be clear, I don't agree with that. (Lol, that statement is so internally inconsistent with itself, since if they damaged the laws they wouldn't take effect, but whatever...) It doesn't apply to Bionicle - replacing "humans" with "Toa" in that sentence makes it no less absurd. 
 
ES also couches any argument against itself as "we have suspended physical laws in the past, therefore we will always be able to." (Which is a strawman that is debunkable due to it not being consistent with reality in a lot of cases.  :P) That's the argument I presented to Ballom, and to his credit he responded with the right answer that is actually true! :)

 

(Of course, the fact that I failed to click all this together until right now is classic fishers64. :dazed: Unlike a certain crazy bonelord, I intended none of it - I just adapted the mode of thought and the terms without thinking about it.)  
 
Of course, once you say that humans can't suspend physical laws, then we are bound by those laws up to the point where we can't damage them or prevent them from operating on us. You can't stop them from operating on us. In fact environmental science says that we should act more in accordance with physical laws...while ignoring the fact that we always follow them in the first place. :P (Yep, I've discredited an entire field of...pseudoscience...this morning. Deal with it.) 
 
But you (Ballom) were saying that Toa suspend physical laws with their elemental powers. My argument is simply this - they don't. If my building a greenhouse and growing plants on a cold, snowy mountain does not break physical laws, than neither does the Toa of the Green's powers, in actuality. 
 
What actually IS a revolt to the physical laws is that the Toa of the Green is able to do what would take me days or years in a very short amount of time. This is what appeals to the Bionicle universe having different physical laws than ours. *insert Protodermis here*
 
And while I'm at it, that's another misconception for bones: Real life physics don't apply in Bionicle.
 
Which reminds me of this one: The canonically established sizes of Mata Nui and Metru Nui contradict the giant robot's size.

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The MNOLG is definitely canon. Or at least, 99% of it is. The only non-canon bits are a line of Vakama's final dialogue, in which he mentions that Takua found his mask and staff (it was only his staff), and Kapura's recurring flatulence. Maybe one or two other minor things.

Finding Vakama's mask and staff is plenty canon. It happened in Tales of the Tohunga, which, although it was a video game, is canon in broad strokes at least.

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The MNOLG is definitely canon. Or at least, 99% of it is. The only non-canon bits are a line of Vakama's final dialogue, in which he mentions that Takua found his mask and staff (it was only his staff), and Kapura's recurring flatulence. Maybe one or two other minor things.

Finding Vakama's mask and staff is plenty canon. It happened in Tales of the Tohunga, which, although it was a video game, is canon in broad strokes at least.

 

 

Read what I said more carefully.

 

 

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Thank you. The method is fantastic, the idea scientific. Therefore  there is both science and fantasy in here. Yeesh. 

So, LotR is sci-fantasy? ATLA is sci-fantasy?

 

I know nothing about ATLA, but talking trees and wizards, elves, etc are obviously not scientific nor possible in real life. :P That's fantasy. 

Edited by fishers64
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Sorry if this seems a little off topic, but I did notice the conversation on romance. The question I have is when exactly was romance (in the MU) actually made to be non-canon? Matau hits on Nokama multiple times, not just in LoMN, and there are references to him "wanting to be more than friends" in at least half of the Adventures book. There is also Balta and Dalu, which definitely has a subtext going on. 

 

-NotS

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I know nothing about ATLA, but talking trees and wizards, elves, etc are obviously not scientific nor possible in real life. :P That's fantasy. 

 

So, talking trees and elves are not scientific nor possible, but fireball-shooting/air-creating/psy-mindcracking robots who can also unite to form SUPAH RAWBOT and have powers of animating dead, manipulating probabilities and such suddenly are both?

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TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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I know nothing about ATLA, but talking trees and wizards, elves, etc are obviously not scientific nor possible in real life. :P That's fantasy. 

 

So, talking trees and elves are not scientific nor possible, but fireball-shooting/air-creating/psy-mindcracking robots who can also unite to form SUPAH RAWBOT and have powers of animating dead, manipulating probabilities and such suddenly are both?

 

Tell me, do flamethrowers exist? If someone has been clinically considered dead for a few minutes, they can, in fact, be brought back--the technology and methods exist. I would say quite a few of those are entirely possible, while others may be a bit far-fetched. We have tech that can monitor brain activity, which is just one of the first few steps in actually reading the mind, wouldn't you say?

 

 

Everyone in this topic is overthinking this. In the end, does it really matter what Bionicle's genre is? It's like arguing whether Star Wars is fantasy or sci-fi.

Bionicle is both sci-fi and fantasy. Stop being nerds.

Agreed! The topic was for bringing up misconceptions that would later be clarified.

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Tell me, do flamethrowers exist? If someone has been clinically considered dead for a few minutes, they can, in fact, be brought back--the technology and methods exist. I would say quite a few of those are entirely possible, while others may be a bit far-fetched. We have tech that can monitor brain activity, which is just one of the first few steps in actually reading the mind, wouldn't you say?

 

But if mind reading can be real, why not aforementioned elves and wizards?

TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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Tell me, do flamethrowers exist? If someone has been clinically considered dead for a few minutes, they can, in fact, be brought back--the technology and methods exist. I would say quite a few of those are entirely possible, while others may be a bit far-fetched. We have tech that can monitor brain activity, which is just one of the first few steps in actually reading the mind, wouldn't you say?

 

But if mind reading can be real, why not aforementioned elves and wizards?

 

Who's to say they aren't? :P Maybe they're just really good at keeping their nature hidden.

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Tell me, do flamethrowers exist? If someone has been clinically considered dead for a few minutes, they can, in fact, be brought back--the technology and methods exist. I would say quite a few of those are entirely possible, while others may be a bit far-fetched. We have tech that can monitor brain activity, which is just one of the first few steps in actually reading the mind, wouldn't you say?

 

But if mind reading can be real, why not aforementioned elves and wizards?

 

Who's to say they aren't? :P Maybe they're just really good at keeping their nature hidden.

 

But is this a reason to say that they're sci-fi?

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TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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Tell me, do flamethrowers exist? If someone has been clinically considered dead for a few minutes, they can, in fact, be brought back--the technology and methods exist. I would say quite a few of those are entirely possible, while others may be a bit far-fetched. We have tech that can monitor brain activity, which is just one of the first few steps in actually reading the mind, wouldn't you say?

 

But if mind reading can be real, why not aforementioned elves and wizards?

 

Who's to say they aren't? :P Maybe they're just really good at keeping their nature hidden.

 

But is this a reason to say that they're sci-fi?

 

No. That's the fantasy aspect. 

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Tell me, do flamethrowers exist? If someone has been clinically considered dead for a few minutes, they can, in fact, be brought back--the technology and methods exist. I would say quite a few of those are entirely possible, while others may be a bit far-fetched. We have tech that can monitor brain activity, which is just one of the first few steps in actually reading the mind, wouldn't you say?

But if mind reading can be real, why not aforementioned elves and wizards?

 

Who's to say they aren't? :P Maybe they're just really good at keeping their nature hidden.

 

But is this a reason to say that they're sci-fi?

 

No. No amount of science will ever make elves exist or not exist. Or more specifically, Rivendell. 

 

I'm going to do a grievous forum error and refer to this blog entry: Science Fantasy = Bionicle. A lot of people in yonder debate would benefit from reading it, but I'll quote the most relevant thing. 

 

Science fiction, science fantasy, and fantasy are all within a larger category that we could call "Physics Fiction".If you think about it, the common trait of them all is that physics is important to the storyline, as opposed to more "real world" fiction. 

 

What's more, "Physics Fiction" is a spectrum, not three seperate categories. At one end, science fiction focuses on real physics. The story centers around what real phsycists, scientists, etc. know about how our world works and takes it in an imaginative direction. At the other end, fantasy focuses on fictional physics. The story features physics invented by the author; taking physics itself in an imaginative direction. In between, science fantasy merges the two, melding real phsyics with fictional ones to give the fictional physics more of a sense of realism while also giving the imagination freedom. 

 

So here's what the spectrum looks like if you consider examples of popular physics fiction examples:

 

 

physfict.gif

 

Bionicle is probably one of the prime examples of "pure" science fantasy. You've got fictional elemental energy, protodermis, Kanohi, etc. and yet you've got machinery, technology, etc. blended together. Star Wars is another good example.

 

So basically, fictional physics vs. real physics. Yes, real physics apply. Yes, fictional physics are in here - I already addressed that.

 

You can argue that LoTR is scifant because there is still real gravity in their world, I think that's a stretch. The point is that isn't the focus of the story - it's the made-up physics and characters. Gravity is just a fact of life that the characters ignore. By contrast, Bionicle has exploding planets and giant robots crashing into planets, to the point where gravity is important to the story.

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No. That's the fantasy aspect. 

 

Then how the holy crackers are fantasy and sci-fi differed in here?

 

 

 

No. No amount of science will ever make elves exist or not exist.

 

>ever implying

 

 

 

You can argue that LoTR is scifant because there is still real gravity in their world, I think that's a stretch. The point is that isn't the focus of the story - it's the made-up physics and characters. Gravity is just a fact of life that the characters ignore. By contrast, Bionicle has exploding planets and giant robots crashing into planets, to the point where gravity is important to the story.

 

 

LoTR has the One Ring falling into the volcano, therefore gravity is also important for the story. Mm?

Edited by Mjolnitor
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TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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No. That's the fantasy aspect. 

 

Then how the holy crackers are fantasy and sci-fi differed in here?

 

 

 

No. No amount of science will ever make elves exist or not exist.

 

>ever implying

 

Well, you were asking about elemental powers and the science aspect, and then next asked about elves and wizards. You changed the subject, I did not. 

 

As for my comment about elves and wizards.... I'd like to introduce you both to the wonderful creation that is known as a joke. :P

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Well, you were asking about elemental powers and the science aspect, and then next asked about elves and wizards. You changed the subject, I did not. 

 

 

Let's see.

EPs allow to do stuff-that-modern-science-can-not, and they're somehow sci-fi.

Wizards and elves can do stuff-that-modern-science-can-not, and they're somehow fantasy.

Why?

Edited by Mjolnitor

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IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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LoTR has the One Ring falling into the volcano, therefore gravity is also important for the story. Mm?

Yes. But nobody expected the One Ring not to fall into the volcano once it was dropped. :P

 

Let's see.

 

EPs allow to do stuff-that-modern-science-can-not, and they're somehow sci-fi.

Wizards and elves can do stuff-that-modern-science-can-not, and they're somehow fantasy.

Why?

EP is fantasy! 

 

It's the giant robots (and the biomechanical beings) that are SF. 

Edited by fishers64
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It's the giant robots (and the biomechanical beings) that are SF. 

 

Why exactly?

 

It's possible to have giant robots and biomechanical beings in real life. It's scientifically possible. 

 

In fact, we do have giant robots in real life, like space probes and factory machines. 

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It's possible to have giant robots and biomechanical beings in real life. It's scientifically possible. 

 

 

What defines this possibility (and impossibility in case of elves)?

 

Science, which goes from observations to conclusions. I observe that giant robots exist and there's research into biotechnology as we speak that could produce biomechanical beings.

 

I do not observe elves. Therefore they are clearly not rooted in science and are indeed fantastic.  

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The MNOLG is definitely canon. Or at least, 99% of it is. The only non-canon bits are a line of Vakama's final dialogue, in which he mentions that Takua found his mask and staff (it was only his staff), and Kapura's recurring flatulence. Maybe one or two other minor things.

Finding Vakama's mask and staff is plenty canon. It happened in Tales of the Tohunga, which, although it was a video game, is canon in broad strokes at least.

 

 

Read what I said more carefully.

 

In Tales of the Tohunga Takua found his STAFF, not his mask.

 

To be clear, this was in responce to that dude who said it happened in TotT.

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LoTR has the One Ring falling into the volcano, therefore gravity is also important for the story. Mm?

You appear to be missing the point. There's nothing tech-ish about dropping something and it falling. That happens in the strictest of fantasy stories too (unless someone works a magic spell against gravity). Tech-ish would be if you're in space, and artificial gravity enables it to fall or something.

 

And why can't elves be achieved via genetics or such?

I actually agree with this... however it's still missing the point, because Tolkien did not pretend to have any scientific-sounding explanation for their immortality. It was treated as fantasy.

 

Again, folks -- it's simple really. It's both -- it's a mixture or a fusion. Fusions are what Bionicle does -- robots plus tropical island... and tech plus "magic". :) So, not pure sci-fi, not pure fantasy. Simple, no?

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Again, folks -- it's simple really. It's both -- it's a mixture or a fusion. Fusions are what Bionicle does -- robots plus tropical island... and tech plus "magic". :) So, not pure sci-fi, not pure fantasy. Simple, no?

 

No, it's not that simple - because "Bionicle is sci-fi" misconception is applied on worldbuilding level by Greg himself (what Boidoh wrote) and thus has leaded to numerous issues.

Edited by Mjolnitor
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TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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Anyway...

Makuta being maybe kind of sort of still alive

Irnakk being maybe kind of sort of real

Glatorian are robots

The Mistika Makuta look like bugs because they're mutants

Draining your light makes you look mutated

Toa Nui can exist

The Great Mahiki let's you shapeshift

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Anyway...

Makuta being maybe kind of sort of still alive

Irnakk being maybe kind of sort of real

Glatorian are robots

The Mistika Makuta look like bugs because they're mutants

Draining your light makes you look mutated

Toa Nui can exist

The Great Mahiki let's you shapeshift

Already covered, and it actually does. Shapeshifting was included in the official description of the Great version. We didn't make that up.

Edited by ~T1S~

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