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Bionicle Generation 1 Misconceptions -- Discussion Topic


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Again, folks -- it's simple really. It's both -- it's a mixture or a fusion. Fusions are what Bionicle does -- robots plus tropical island... and tech plus "magic". :) So, not pure sci-fi, not pure fantasy. Simple, no?

 

No, it's not that simple - because "Bionicle is sci-fi" misconception is applied on worldbuilding level by Greg himself (what Boidoh wrote) and thus has leaded to numerous issues.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The meaning of that Greg quote seems pretty obvious to me -- it's in the context of the giant robot. That part of it wasn't ever meant to be "just fantasy"; that part was a mystery that was solved, with something "sciencey". :P I covered this already in previous posts. And again, it is Greg that defined it as science fantasy (and again, defined the fantasy part as "science you don't understand" -- but since that can work for any fantasy, it doesn't make it any less fantasy).

 

But it is that simple, because there are several things Bionicle intentionally avoids trying to explain. They are just accepted face-value, as "magic".

 

I'm not saying that's the entire answer; obviously for the misconception post I'll go into more detail, but that is the "short answer". :) There's some of both. (So, one thing seeming possible to be either one, but turning out to be "science", doesn't make the entire story hard science fiction that explains everything. Make sense? :))

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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Not sure if this has been said or not, but people saying that the Great Spirit being a Metallic Titan was a later last minuter addition utterly annoys the heck out of me. We have sufficient amounts data and proof that it was planned since (for Bionicle), the time before time; and yet people deny themselves this truth. :lol:

Edited by Iaredios
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Bionicle is not 'science fantasy'. It's a soft sci-fi with mystical elements. At least, that's how I'd categorize it if I were to shelve it in my bookstore. In any case, it belongs under Speculative Fiction, Sci-Fi, Children's&Teen's.

 

Like, sat for example, the Leviathan books by Scott Westerfield, in which the Cold War turns hot between a Bioengineering West and a Dieselpunk Soviet Union, or Eoin Colfer's Supernaturalist, where invisible pain-eating goo balls are used as shielding for a nuclear reactor. I can come up with more examples, if you need to be convinced.

 

Bionicle is a fantasy story.

Incorrect. Bionicle is a soft sci-fi with mystical elements. Although the beginning ('01-'03) appeared more fantastic, the series was planned from the beginning to be sci-fi, and revealed itself to be such from '04 onwards, culminating in the great reveal of '08, in which the (controversial, but planned all along) giant robot was awoken. Bionicle was conceived when one.of it's designers imagined warriors inside his medicine going into his body to fight the disease, from which the overarching '01-'08 storyline was born.

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Sorry to interrupt the sci-fi discusion, but I have a question: What exactly killed Jaller in MOL? Was it actually fear?

I thought it was? I see no reason why it couldn't be..?

 

 

Oh & (Electronic, et cetera) Technology does not equal Science Fiction.

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~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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Sorry to interrupt the sci-fi discusion, but I have a question: What exactly killed Jaller in MOL? Was it actually fear?

Yes, I believe that he was so stricken with fright that he died of a quaking heart attack, and if memory serves right Jaller is still pretty scared of them.

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A RUDE AWAKENING - A Spherus Magna redo | Tzais-Kuluu  |  Pushing Back The Tide  |  Last Words  |  Black Coronation  | Blue Man Bound | Visions of Thasos   ن

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Oh & (Electronic, et cetera) Technology does not equal Science Fiction.

But it is usually a very good indicator. I've yet to see a fantasy setting that had technology equivalent to the present day. The most advanced I've seen is Eberron from D&D (Post Magic-industrial Revolution) and and the Mistborn (Scadrial) series from Brandon Sanderson (Electric lights are considered strange). Neither of them have technology equal to us, yet the MU (inside) has sophisticated infrastructure and large-scale industry. It's also implied that Spherus Magna was also very advanced before the Shattering, even if they lost most of it.

 

And the fact that the action is almost all set inside a giant man-shaped spaceship might also point towards Bionicle being more sci-fi. The central plot device is basically nanotech (Along with the characters, but that's a different kettle of fish)

 

So:

1) Advanced technology

2) Set in SPAAACE!

3) Central nanotech plot device.

 

3 strong arguments in favour of Bionicle being sci-fi. Soft sci-fi because there isn't an attempt to make it gel with our physics, like Dune's Sandworm Ecology.

  • Upvote 1

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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But it is usually a very good indicator. I've yet to see a fantasy setting that had technology equivalent to the present day.

 

 

Shadowrun.

 

Also, early Might & Magic games were set on worlds being... space stations. With ancient robots and lasers in deep dungeons. But they were fantasy games nonethless.

 

Edited by Mjolnitor

TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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But it is usually a very good indicator. I've yet to see a fantasy setting that had technology equivalent to the present day.

 

 

Shadowrun.

 

Also, early Might & Magic games were set on worlds being... space stations. With ancient robots and lasers in deep dungeons. But they were fantasy games nonethless.

Shadowrun is urban fantasy, which bionicle isn't (But good point reminding me. I forgot about an entire genre. -_-").

 

Was that central to the Might&Magic story or something that just happened to be there, like the Jedi in TESIII: Morrowind?

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Shadowrun is urban fantasy, which bionicle isn't

 

But why then Bionicle can't be defined as, for example, space fantasy of sorts?

 

 

 

Was that central to the Might&Magic story or something that just happened to be there, like the Jedi in TESIII: Morrowind?

 

Is travelling via spaceships, wearing high-tech suits and restoring an antient weapon facility central to the story?

Edited by Mjolnitor
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IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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"an attempt to make it gel with our physics" Is kind of a great way to go; is this based off of our physics + these possibilities (Sci-Fi)? Or is it a completely alternate set of a laws that govern the universe ([alternative physics / physics + magic on top] Fantasy).

 

If it's set in a world with a completely different basis of laws governing it calling it Science Fiction is really a stretch because "fiction based on imagined future scientific or technological advances ..." requires a type of connection with the real world (the part about it being the future is relevant to present technology, so something set in the 'real world' but 500 years ago on a planet in another galaxy could still very easily be Science Fiction not Fantasy, even if they have better nano technology but there isn't magic) As Bionicle doesn't have a connection to the real world the label Science Fiction or Fantasy (or "Science Fantasy") only really serve as an indicator for how hard or soft a setting is; compared to the Rea World it is thus very soft, but the RW isn't as relevant as it is to say; the Chronicles of Narnia (where there is an established connection; even in a 'multiverse' kind of way) so whilst I strongly believe it's entirely wrong to stick the label Science Fiction on Bionicle, I see these particular genre labels as not very useful.

 

Sometimes magic from technology works to justify something as Science Fiction (although I'm struggling to think of examples...), but when their aren't any explanations for how it can fit in with real world physics beyond "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." it starts to fall apart, I generally view books by Peter F. Hamilton (such as those in the Confederation universe & the Commonwealth universe) as Science Fiction they have some debatably magical things in them, however they are mostly explained in a scientific matter, but it does get to be quite soft.

 

A huge part of how one separates Sci-Fi from Fantasy is how they are presented.

 

And Bionicle has never offered scientific explanations, so much as systemic magical explanations (a weak example but still; Kanoka discs & how systematic they are ...still in the bounds of Magic A Is Magic A).

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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Shadowrun is urban fantasy, which bionicle isn't

 

 

But why then Bionicle can't be defined as, for example, space fantasy of sorts?

Sci-fi has that covered. Science Fiction is the more accepted way of saying "fantasy based on scientific principles". It isn't literary fantasy, because that leans more on magic.

 

 

 

Was that central to the Might&Magic story or something that just happened to be there, like the Jedi in TESIII: Morrowind?

 

Is travelling via spaceships, wearing high-tech suits and restoring an antient weapon facility central to the story?

It is pretty central to Mass Effect. As for Might&Magic, as far as I know, the central mechanic of M&M is taking control of a fantasy-based faction fighting with monsters and gaining territory and resources.

Edited by Regitnui

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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But why then Bionicle can't be defined as, for example, space fantasy of sorts?

 

Sci-fi has that covered. Science Fiction is the more accepted way of saying "fantasy based on scientific principles". It isn't literary fantasy, because that leans more on magic.

 

 

Actually no it doesn't. Science Fiction isn't about Space, it's about technology that is either currently theoretical or considered impossible, given a somewhat scientific explanation.

 

There is a blurred line between it & Fantasy, but "Fantasy in Space" does not automatically mean "Science Fiction".

  • Upvote 3

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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I've never played the game. You tell me. As far as I know, the central mechanic of M&M is taking control of a fantasy-based faction fighting with monsters and gaining territory and resources.

 

You described here Heroes of M&M, a strategy spin-off of M&M.

 

 

Sci-fi has that covered.

Is Warhammer 40K sci-fi?

 

There is a blurred line between it & Fantasy, but "Fantasy in Space" does not automatically mean "Science Fiction".

 

This.

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IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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I have never played Might&Magic. As far as I know, it's fantasy.

 

40K is very much Science-fiction.

 

Actually no it doesn't. Science Fiction isn't about Space, it's about technology that is either currently theoretical or considered impossible, given a somewhat scientific explanation.

Sounds like Bionicle, if filtered through a 9-12 year-old's understanding.

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Actually no it doesn't. Science Fiction isn't about Space, it's about technology that is either currently theoretical or considered impossible, given a somewhat scientific explanation.

Sounds like Bionicle, if filtered through a 9-12 year-old's understanding.

 

 

...So then maybe it would be worthwhile to say what it actually is (i.e. not a Sci-Fi by any means) not what they are 'likely' to think it is.

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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I have never played Might&Magic. As far as I know, it's fantasy.

 

It's fantasy, and it has blasters, robots and spaceships - but Bionicle suddenly can't be fantasy because of this.

 

 

40K is very much Science-fiction.

 

The Four Gods of Chaos, psykers and working holy relics refute this opinion of yours.

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TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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I could accept "Science Fantasy" but by definition, once something is Science Fantasy, it is no longer Sci-Fi — the genres Science Fantasy & Sci-Fi simply can't go together; Sci-Fi excludes a certain level of magic; Scieence Fantasy has elements of Science Fiction but can no longer be classified as a True Sci-Fi, as it's elements of Fantasy destroy the overall "science-ness", ...Science Fantasy could be considered a sub-genre of Fantasy, but not one of Sci-Fi.

 

Well technically, one could consider some Sci-Fi a sub-genre of Fantasy; but generally people prefer to consider them on a same hierarchical level; thus something that is truly Sci-Fi excludes the definition of Fantasy, so as to not make it redundant; "Science Fantasy" is invoked as a genre as it is more useful (specific) to identify some pieces of Fantasy as having Sci-Fi elements even though they cannot be Sci-Fi by virtue of the Fantasy (here; magical) elements. However ultimately Bionicle cannot be considered Science Fiction, although I can see the appropriation of unexplained science & other functional magic to give it the title Science-Fantasy; but really whilst it  (Science Fantasy) may be a (pre-existing) genre it doesn't seem much more useful than say, a (Techno-)Fantasy in a Space setting; mainly because the Space bit is sort of a spoiler for many of the earlier years... although I don't think there are any rules against a genre (or theme, which the space bit is?) being a spoiler.

Science Fantasy despite being a somewhat more specific genre than Fantasy or Sci-Fi doesn't really tell you much in the case of Bionicle as Bionicle is a very 'individualised' setting (almost unique?); so any genres we through on it are either going to be overly vague or an inaccurate or misleading appropriation (or an overly individualised genre...).

Hence why I was against addressing it's genre in the first place.

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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Wikipedia calls it 'Science fantasy', Tvtropes categorises it as sci-fi. I will not argue any longer, since we are determined to muddy the waters.

  • Upvote 1

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Wikipedia calls it 'Science fantasy', Tvtropes categorises it as sci-fi. I will not argue any longer, since we are determined to muddy the waters.

 

Suit yourself; this is my planned last post on it as well. At a quick look I can only see the "sci" show up in the Bionicle article under Genre Busting other than pretty unrelated points ("Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale" isn't actually that specific to Sci-Fi, just commonly found in — at least in my experience), & I think Genre Busting is actually a pretty good description of Bionicle.

To end with; there were only two issues I had: one was that I didn't feel it's genre was that relevant (mainly because I felt it was a genre-buster; although the thought wasn't 'clear' until until now; my error), the second was simply that I feel it is wrong to call Bionicle "Science Fiction"/"Sci-Fi" specifically (Relevant-ish tangent; I don't feel "Sci-Fi + Fantasy" is ever a relevant description as it indicates either "Science Fantasy" or what it says it is [to me]; two incompatible genres [a contradiction], & as "Science Fantasy" seems to be a sub-genre of Fantasy, but not of Sci-Fi, the name of that genre seems misleading; but I'm not in a position to change the name of a genre, & must accept that misleading connotation; as it is, anyone that actually looks up Science Fantasy will understand that is isn't what it might imply it to be.); I'm sorry I didn't make these points clear — or my reasons for them, my intention was not to muddy waters.

 

As it is I'm fairly confident I have nothing more to add on this, & as you are leaving this debate I feel I should to; whatever others feel the correct answer is, I shall leave that to them, as will I to any other points raised; at least hopefully I have the discipline to do so.

 

On a vaguely related note; I feel this particular misconception is very important to address, I entirely agree with Iaredios;

 

Not sure if this has been said or not, but people saying that the Great Spirit being a Metallic Titan was a later last minuter addition utterly annoys the heck out of me. We have sufficient amounts data and proof that it was planned since (for Bionicle), the time before time; and yet people deny themselves this truth. :lol:

 

It was clearly planned from the beginning, I happened to like this, others did not; but one liking it does not change the actuality of it. (Just as my disliking the name "Science Fantasy" give me any ability to change it's name to something better befitting a sub-genre of Fantasy with Sci-Fi-ish elements; I just deal with the fact that, to me, it had a misleading name. [i do like the genre itself though!])

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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"Bionicle is not 'science fantasy'."

Well, Greg Farshtey said it is. :)

"It's a soft sci-fi with mystical elements."

Which is summarized as "science fantasy." :)

You can also just call it sci-fi in loose terms. But there is a misconception going around that it's supposed to be hard science fiction (everything explained) and it isn't. :)

"At least, that's how I'd categorize it if I were to shelve it in my bookstore."

The idea of "science fantasy" is relatively new and belongs more to authorial theory -- as far as I know it doesn't really exist for book labels and bookstore categories. They simplify things by rules like "if anything looks science-related ni it, it's sci-fi". (Then there's the SyFy channel categorization which puts even normal fantasy under sci-fi, heh.) Not what we're talking about here, though, since where a book sits on a shelf doesn't mean it's meant to explain every detail with technobabble. :P

I do like your idea of also addressing "Bionicle is fantasy" at the same time though. That might resolve a lot of confusion like what's apparently still going on in this topic. :P

BTW, it may be a misconception though that the giant robot reveal was "controversial." At the time it was almost universally accepted, and whenever I see topics talking about favorite twists and the like it seems to come up often. Although I wouldn't address this one here as that's just about a matter of popularity and this project is for questions of what's canon and the like.

 

I've yet to see a fantasy setting that had technology equivalent to the present day.

Shannara is generally seen as fantasy because that's what most of the story is like, but it has massive robotic monsters as leftovers from a distant-past technological age and the like.

 

the action is almost all set inside a giant man-shaped spaceship

Depends on how you calculate. The actual featured storyline spent three years atop that spaceship on a camouflage island that looked natural, two years inside it, two years again outside, one year in, and then two years again outside it. That's 7 out, 3 in.

Out of time for now... I'll catch up later, sorry.

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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SEGJURIHG@DPH@RJPHR@HGRESO!I%GSPIOG}SRJGHP ELEVEN

I had a massive essay written up & my neighbor turned the power off (I live in a unit block)
So a lot of my last bit got cut off. Thankfully I had part of it copy+pasted into a word doc....
The "saving" system didn't appear to save anything! >:[

Plans broken (although there are others to uphold another side of the debate; thank you bonesiiii :] )
 
bonesiii, on 23 Nov 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:
 
"Bionicle is not 'science fantasy'."
 
Well, Greg Farshtey said it is. :)
 
That line of reasoning offends my intellectual abilities, of which I don't think are particularly up to scratch, but what you said is irrelevant:
If I was the author of say;
"Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down and broke his crown,
And Jill came tumbling after."
Me as the author calling it a Political thriller does not make it a Political thriller, for a story to be a given genre it needs to paint itself as that genre within it's story; an out of universe comment stating that it was something else isn't a even a retcon; it is patently incorrect.
I am not saying Greg did anything as outrageous as that, but it illustrates the point.
 
bonesiii, on 23 Nov 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:
 
"It's a soft sci-fi with mystical elements."
 
Which is summarized as "science fantasy." :)
 
On a pedantic note: but never the less; it would be a Fantasy with Sci-Fi elements;
Sci-Fi: fiction based on imagined future scientific or technological advances and major social or environmental changes, frequently portraying space or time travel and life on other planets.
Fantasy: a genre of imaginative fiction involving magic and adventure, especially in a setting other than the real world.
As a technology once thought to be possible (at least not yet disproved), but since found to be proven impossible; technically certain works of Science-Fiction would be classified as Fantasy — as we usually don't apply things retroactively we wouldn't (typically) consider this grounds to make it a sub-genre of Fantasy, however as various works (typically ones that began whilst they were deemed possible) that are labeled Sci-Fi continue to use technologies (or other theories) that are now longer deemed to be within the realms of possibility; the line is further blurred between it and Fantasy.
Typically I've seen this resolved as once something can be classified as Sci-Fi (which de facto means it can't be impossible [such as many forms of magic]) it is no longer classified as Fantasy — else every Sci-Fi work would also have Fantasy sitting next to it, or as "Fantasy; Sci-Fi", were once again the Fantasy label is redundant.
As such once you layer magic onto Sci-Fi, it's now an underlying Fantasy + Sci-Fi Elements, it might seem counter-intuitive but the underlying reasoning is perfectly sound & it causes more problems to say Sci-Fi + Fantasy (which is what "mystical elements" means in this case), as that violates the definitions (& their only-straight-forward extrapolations — aka implications, & hardly rare "assumptions" [why else is Fantasy not tacked onto all Sci-Fi works? There are two alternatives; & both lead to this conclusion])
But yes that is ultimately, what "Science Fantasy" is.
 
 
bonesiii, on 23 Nov 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:
You can also just call it sci-fi in loose terms. But there is a misconception going around that it's supposed to be hard science fiction (everything explained) and it isn't. :)
 
It 'can' be called Sci-Fi, but with terms that loose they are hardly indicative of anything. As for "there is a misconception going around that it's supposed to be hard science fiction (everything explained) and it isn't." I'm not entirely sure whether you are referring to Science-Fiction or Science Fantasy; if the former; I agree — but when it comes to things that aren't explained at all (at least not to the point that they are considered "Surreal" as a genre, although a story can always have points of that, as a theme [As far as other pieces go {not-Bionicle}; I mean you can have a murder mystery for an arc, but out of 30 arcs your unlikely to list that as a genre for an entire piece, so it might not exactly be a theme but things get a bit blurry when it was a greatly influential arc, et cetera] but that's another can of worms!)
One needs to rely on how it was depicted & shown; its' style (genre: a style or category of art, music, or literature), & whilst the Great Beings have been described along the lines of being brilliant scientists, that's essentially equivalent to saying that they were systematic & had a great understanding of their, say 'magic'; it seems to me that in the case of Bionicle this is a great case of 
 
bonesiii, on 23 Nov 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:
The idea of "science fantasy" is relatively new and belongs more to authorial theory -- as far as I know it doesn't really exist for book labels and bookstore categories. They simplify things by rules like "if anything looks science-related ni it, it's sci-fi". (Then there's the SyFy channel categorization which puts even normal fantasy under sci-fi, heh.) Not what we're talking about here, though, since where a book sits on a shelf doesn't mean it's meant to explain every detail with technobabble. :P
 
It's been around for a good 50 years, so yes that's relatively new; & if one does consider it to be a something that "simplify things by rules like "if anything looks science-related ni it, it's sci-fi"" then I think that's an even better reason to avoid using that genre as a label; it's not been well respected; so no one really knows if when it is invoked it's invoked for accuracy or plain laziness — more so than most labels. 
 
 
 
bonesiii, on 23 Nov 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:
 
"It's a soft sci-fi with mystical elements."
 
Which is summarized as "science fantasy." :)
 
You can also just call it sci-fi in loose terms. But there is a misconception going around that it's supposed to be hard science fiction (everything explained) and it isn't. :)
 
"At least, that's how I'd categorize it if I were to shelve it in my bookstore."
 
The idea of "science fantasy" is relatively new and belongs more to authorial theory -- as far as I know it doesn't really exist for book labels and bookstore categories. They simplify things by rules like "if anything looks science-related ni it, it's sci-fi". (Then there's the SyFy channel categorization which puts even normal fantasy under sci-fi, heh.) Not what we're talking about here, though, since where a book sits on a shelf doesn't mean it's meant to explain every detail with technobabble. :P
 
I do like your idea of also addressing "Bionicle is fantasy" at the same time though. That might resolve a lot of confusion like what's apparently still going on in this topic. :P
 
BTW, it may be a misconception though that the giant robot reveal was "controversial." At the time it was almost universally accepted, and whenever I see topics talking about favorite twists and the like it seems to come up often. Although I wouldn't address this one here as that's just about a matter of popularity and this project is for questions of what's canon and the like.
 
 
 
Then again, it looks like my main points survived.
 
I liked most of your later points bonesiii :)

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In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


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Iblis, next time could you please space out your paragraphs, huge blocks of text disturb my already sensitive eyes (curse of my father).

 

EDIT: I'm sorry, this phone made a lot of the text appeared clumped together in a column of the alphabet on steroids.

Edited by Iaredios
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I'm curious as to how BIONICLE's categorization, or lack thereof, as Sci-Fi matters.

 

 

Plenty of Sci-Fi uses inaccurate, or dubious, science, as does BIONICLE. Since the primary difference between it and works such as Star Trek is that the latter portray imaginary future histories, whereas the former portrays an entirely imaginary universe and history,  and since it is patently obvious that BIONICLE is not set in our universe, I fail to see why what is ultimately a semantic and subjective distinction is of such importance.

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What I was going to add as an edit to my previous post, if there were no further posts, to Regitnui's statement about fantasy shows without tech of about our level:

 

There's also Once Upon a Time, which has most of its story literally set in our world (with our tech). And Chronotrigger has everything from wizards to futuristic tech, to traditional middle-ages low-tech.

 

 

 

 

Science Fantasy could be considered a sub-genre of Fantasy, but not one of Sci-Fi.

Again, it's a mix of both. :) (Also this logic doesn't really work, as it makes it sound like it couldn't be a sub-genre of sci-fi but could be one of fantasy. A mix can be considered a "sub-genre" of BOTH. :)

 

But really it's a spectrum, as I said in the blog entry quoted by fishers earlier. Very few two sci-fi stories or fantasy stories have the exact same levels; most are a mix somewhere in between, with many closer to the ends of the spectrum. Science fantasy is simply closer to the middle of the spectrum. :)

 

 

That line of reasoning offends my intellectual abilities

Well it shouldn't -- when an author says what the intent was, that should be taken more seriously than fan attempts to guess at it. :) He would know. ;)

 

Me as the author calling it a Political thriller does not make it a Political thriller

This isn't a good analogy. The point is that some people point to the elements of one side of the spectrum in Bionicle and say it's a failing because it failed to be purely the other side. This misses that the mixture was intended. :) Also, you're talking about factors that are completely outside the "physics fiction" spectrum that's already been established. There are many more genres out there besides just political thrillers and nursery rhymes! But here we're just talking about two and levels of mixture between them -- sci-fi and fantasy.

 

Outta time again. :)

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...I'm with Regitnui.

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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This one pops up a lot on other sites not dedicated to Bionicle (such as sites for general Lego discussion), but I think it should still be addressed here (if only so I have something to link them to): Greg was somehow the "real writer" for (or, more humorously "the creator of") Bionicle (if they acknowledge the story team, they assume he was it's head).

Greg has denied this many times, but most people who read the Greg discussions already knew this so the message does not reach it's intended audience.

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Idk if this has been mentioned before, but I believe these things should be included and clarified:

•Makuta can only use one power at a time

•how Takanuva became a Toa by only putting on the MoL

•how Takanuva got ressurected

•exactly what is needed for a being to be revived in heaven/ (limbo?) the Red Star

•MU characters are 80% machine 20% organic and SM vice versa

•Takanuva is the only Toa of light EVER in the prime universe

•Destinies can vary across alt. universes

•The Great Beings are meatbags and hail from SM. They arent humans.

 

That's all I have for now. I feel like most of it is minor stuff, but it'd be good to get a giant appendix/list of all the misconceptions no matter how big or small. :)

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More to Iblis:

 

If I was the author of say;

"Jack and Jill went up the hill

To fetch a pail of water.

Jack fell down and broke his crown,

And Jill came tumbling after."

Me as the author calling it a Political thriller does not make it a Political thriller

A little more to this. Notice that nothing about the definition of "political thriller" is in this. Unless you want to take the hill as a metaphor for political power and the broken crown as a failed political move by a former ruler. :P Actually, if the real author of this had called it a political thriller, that is probably exactly how we would interpret it. But the author said no such thing.

 

By contrast, science fiction and fantasy both have elements in their definitions that are mixed into Bionicle.

 

Another reason the authors' own definition matters is relevant to the bookstore categorization concept Reg brought up -- see, you have to keep in mind that different bookstores (or library systems, or websites, etc.) can each use a different subjective categorization like the one he mentioned in that post. So, choosing any particular one (unless you work for that bookstore... etc.) is arbitary. But the author's own intent is one definition that rises above them all as objective.

 

And in any event, that is the definition where you can have a misconception. If a bookstore puts Shannara in the sci-fi category, it's not really a misconception if a fan of Shannara calls it fantasy because of the magic that's at the forefront (if anything they'd be more accurate). It's just a difference of opinion of labeling convention among outsiders to the story. Only the authors actually determine what the intent of their story is, so an opinion trying to guess at that intent can be objectively inaccurate.

 

Now, in several of your posts, Iblis, you have been posting tons of extra details saying common knowledge things that nobody was asking about in here. Can we please not do that? This topic is for misconceptions about the Bionicle storyline, not encyclopedic posts going off on related tangents. We don't need dictionary definitions of genres for example, which everybody already knows and have already been summarized in the topic.

 

To your question if I had a typo for "hard science fantasy", no I didn't. (And not even sure what that would mean. :P "Hard sci-fi" refers to the far end of the spectrum, basically; "very pure". You can't have "hard" referring to anything in the mixtures in the middle, at least not by the usual use of the term.)

 

 

 

Also... Iblis... quote tags. ;)

 

I'm curious as to how BIONICLE's categorization, or lack thereof, as Sci-Fi matters.

People confusing it for hard science fiction will often make criticisms when something in the more "magic" side of it isn't explained. Understanding that it's a mix of sci-fi and fantasy erases the need for this mistake. :)

 

I fail to see why what is ultimately a semantic and subjective distinction is of such importance.

Of what importance? This is a project about common misconceptions, not earth-shatteringly important misconceptions (per se :P). :)

 

 

 

NS -- maybe, but this is more for in-story misconceptions.

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People confusing it for hard science fiction will often make criticisms when something in the more "magic" side of it isn't explained. Understanding that it's a mix of sci-fi and fantasy erases the need for this mistake. :)

I'm puzzled as to how anyone could mistake a story featuring non-human beings with elemental powers for hard science fiction. It's not as if hard sci-fi is all that popular, compared to soft sci-fi. As far as I know, Star Trek and Doctor Who have never come under concentrated fire for not explaining how the Celestial Toymaker or the Q or any other ten-a-penny god-like beings operate. By comparison, biomechanical creatures who use a mysterious material/synthetic matter as the basis for their moderately-defined powers are nothing remarkable.

 

 

Of what importance? This is a project about common misconceptions, not earth-shatteringly important misconceptions (per se :P). :)

 

True, but this particular "misconception" seems of about as much consequence as Kapura's canonically-dubious flatuence.

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Also... Iblis... quote tags. ;)

 

I HAD THEM THERE AND MY POST AS A WHOLE WAS BEAUTIFULLY FORMATTED, THEN:

 

SEGJURIHG@DPH@RJPHR@HGRESO!I%GSPIOG}SRJGHP ELEVEN

I had a massive essay written up & my neighbor turned the power off (I live in a unit block)

So a lot of my last bit got cut off. Thankfully I had part of it copy+pasted into a word doc....
The "saving" system didn't appear to save anything! >:[

 

...happened. :(

 

& to those that didn't realise, this comment;

 

Then again, it looks like my main points survived.

 

Was entirely sarcastic, the latter half was lost entirely; so onto another point;

 

you have been posting tons of extra details saying common knowledge things that nobody was asking about in here. Can we please not do that? This topic is for misconceptions about the Bionicle storyline, not encyclopedic posts going off on related tangents. We don't need dictionary definitions of genres for example, which everybody already knows and have already been summarized in the topic.

 

Actually, we did need them as certain people have a fantastic ability to ignore posts & respond back with the opposite opinion, without citing any reasoning at the time. A good chunk of your posts bonesiii have offered reasons but you haven't actually attacked my reasons all around...

 

Only the authors actually determine what the intent of their story is, so an opinion trying to guess at that intent can be objectively inaccurate.

 

I disagree; the genre is determined on the story itself not the authors intentions which they failed to implement; or that the author doesn't actually understand what the genre means; and thus their Science Fantasy Story is being called Sci-Fi, when it can't really fit that definition.

 

 

authors' own definition matters is relevant to the bookstore categorization concept Reg brought up -- see, you have to keep in mind that different bookstores (or library systems, or websites, etc.) can each use a different subjective categorization like the one he mentioned in that post. So, choosing any particular one (unless you work for that bookstore... etc.) is arbitary.

 

Various places of many sorts don't do things 100% accurately as frankly they haven't read every book in them, so relying on what the author or a reviewer have said about a book or their own guess to determine what section to put it in, and then their own choice to shove it in with others genres when they don't have a category for that particular one.

 

use a different subjective categorization like the one he mentioned in that post.

 

It's just a difference of opinion of labeling convention among outsiders to the story.

 

Yes but ironically there are actual definitions, & some people that actually care to identify what is objectively right & wrong; that others are defaulting on that "it's a custom, subjective system" just makes it even more arbitrary; If your labels are sufficiently different to mine & I don't know what your system is, it makes most labels you put on things noticeably less useful than otherwise; I wouldn't pay any attention to what you call books I haven't read, because until I've read a few of them I'm not going to really know how you did it; & thus it doesn't help me.

 

 

A little more to this. Notice that nothing about the definition of "political thriller" is in this. Unless you want to take the hill as a metaphor for political power and the broken crown as a failed political move by a former ruler.  :P Actually, if the real author of this had called it a political thriller, that is probably exactly how we would interpret it. But the author said no such thing.

 

Actually, if the real author had called it that we would disagree upon reading it, & correct him; it could & apparently be a political allegory & a thriller; but the style or category was not Political Thriller.

 

You repeatedly ignore the definitions an make up whatever you want; however if all of your reasoning was applied to Harry Potter it would probably be considered a Sci-Fi to after all there is plenty of working technology in the Muggle-world & it pays perfect respect to physics et cetera.

 

Until you actually stop ignoring the objective nature of things I'm going to quick on repeating it back because persistent repetition is a great way to learn, as well as learn things one doesn't want to to learn. So please when you're ready to address points from an attempted objective ground I'll drop the "tons of extra details  [...] nobody was asking about", but until then I see few reasons to try and debate on a higher level when we can't seem to be able to agree on the basics.

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~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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I'm puzzled as to how anyone could mistake a story featuring non-human beings with elemental powers for hard science fiction.

Yeah, that's been an endless source of puzzlement. :P But then not everybody really thinks about it very hard. Often they will make just surface assumptions.

 

 

Only the authors actually determine what the intent of their story is, so an opinion trying to guess at that intent can be objectively inaccurate.

I disagree

Iblis, that's not up for dispute; authors determine their own intent.

 

the genre is determined on the story itself not the authors intentions which they failed to implement

The story is made by authors, based on their intent. These are not two different things. And having an intent doesn't mean you can't fail at it. The point here is simply that when somebody identifies an element of (for example) fantasy in Bionicle, and assumes it was intended as science fiction only, and thus see it as a failing, they are incorrect because they weren't aiming at pure sci-fi. Likewise, when somebody sees an element of science fiction in Bionicle, and assumes it was meant as pure fantasy, and sees that as missing the intended mark, they are also incorrect.

 

The reason those misunderstandings happen is that traditionally speculative fiction has been categorized into two separate categories -- sci-fi and fantasy -- and most stories aim at being one or the other. So people are accustomed to things being one or the other, and aren't used to the fusion. However, it's good to enter (or help establish) that new ground as that's a good way to be more original. :)

 

(Note of course that for Bionicle, there isn't just one author, but we're using this as shorthand for the founders, story team, and writers as a whole.)

 

Actually, if the real author had called it that we would disagree upon reading it, & correct him

Well, there's several problems with the analogy that make this dubious. First, it was written before the genre of political thriller (as defined as such) existed. Anyways, if we imagine that it had been authored today, it would be highly unlikely that anybody wouldn't know what political thrillers are, and we would take the author as likely joking. :P Aaaanyways, the analogy is so irrelevant, I just felt it needed pointed out. Yet another issue is that there is no recognized (or even logical) spectrum with political thrillers on one end and nursery rhymes on the other. :P

 

The point, again, is that Bionicle does fit the definition of science fantasy, and the main reason people would fail to realize this is if it doesn't occur to them (simply because it's a relatively new genre) to mix the two. Many people don't realize that some stories like Star Wars have already been doing that; they'll be aware of some of them generally but not have thought about it.

 

however if all of your reasoning was applied to Harry Potter it would probably be considered a Sci-Fi

?? I'm not aware of elements of science fiction in HP.

 

to after all there is plenty of working technology in the Muggle-world

No no. That's not how science fiction works. Real-world tech is not considered part of science fiction. The over-category of "speculative fiction" which both sci-fi and fantasy are in refer to use of physics (as a major part of the story) beyond what is normal in the real world. This is the same reason that dropping the One Ring in Mount Doom is not science fiction just because normal gravity is at play. It may seem weird that about the same level of tech as our world in a completely fictional alien world might count as sci-fi under some of the definitions, but nevertheless that's just how the genre is defined; normal cars and houses and the like just aren't seen as sci-fi.

 

One of the definitions you yourself cited helps understand why -- "futuristic." (Of course, an alternate past could still be sci-fi; so "a long time ago" in the Star Wars galaxy, an alien world that has a tech level roughly like real-world Earth 2014 would still be called sci-fi. Or a better example is Stargate; they would often have world with humans that developed roughly real-world like tech levels, even down to very similar buildings.)

 

In Harry Potter, then, the Muggle tech is not the emphasis of the story in a "speculative" sense, as Star Trek hyperdrive is. So it is not considered sci-fi.

 

 

Edit: Iblis, this also might need said... in part because I've been getting a particular vibe from your posts here, and it seems hinted at strongly with that part you put in bold in this latest one. Please refrain from "are we there yet?" or "you didn't reply to everything I said" posts in this topic. For one, I have limited time, but don't want to put off some answers for several pages; other people have been bringing up some things that warranted reply too, keep in mind. Second, as I said, this is not the place for extended discussion or debate. If you wish to have a lengthy discussion about any particular subject here, like genre definitions, please either take it to PM or open a new topic about it. :)

 

(Also, it's been frankly very hard to follow your posts. You have been using very ambiguous wordings in several places, and it doesn't help that you keep changing the size of your font. I have nothing against people using stylized posts, but if it's causing you problems you might want to reconsider. Understood, though, about your losing part of your post. I didn't get that from what you said, mainly because I only had time to skim for on-topic content at that point. Also, word to the wise, please avoid monster paragraphs. Bottom line -- make your posts easy to read and worded clearly, and you'll have much better results in discussions. :) And be patient, please. ^_^)

Edited by bonesiii

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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(Note of course that for Bionicle, there isn't just one author, but we're using this as shorthand for the founders, story team, and writers as a whole.)

 

 

 

That's the problem. Different authors have different visions, and one of them goes full M-MUH PROGRAM M-MUH GLITCHES M-MUH ROBOTS M-MUH HIGH-TECH EXPLANATIONS FOR EVERYTHING M-MUH GREAT BEINGS.

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IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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Only the authors actually determine what the intent of their story is, so an opinion trying to guess at that intent can be objectively inaccurate.


I disagree

Iblis, that's not up for dispute; authors determine their own intent.

 

LOOK AT THE VERY NEXT WORDS.

 

 

 

the genre is determined on the story itself not the authors intentions which they failed to implement

The story is made by authors, based on their intent. These are not two different things. And having an intent doesn't mean you can't fail at it. The point here is simply that when somebody identifies an element of (for example) fantasy in Bionicle, and assumes it was intended as science fiction only, and thus see it as a failing, they are incorrect because they weren't aiming at pure sci-fi. Likewise, when somebody sees an element of science fiction in Bionicle, and assumes it was meant as pure fantasy, and sees that as missing the intended mark, they are also incorrect.

I'm not debating whether "The point here is simply that when somebody identifies an element of (for example) fantasy in Bionicle, and assumes it was intended as science fiction only, and thus see it as a failing" That's never what I've debated.

My debate is that Bionicle can not be Sci-Fi because of the definition of Sci-Fi.

I don't think Bionicle ended up (that) different to what was intended; I do however think Greg (as I haven't seen any others 'authors' of it claim it was a Sci-Fi, but I could be wrong), like you, doesn't seem to grasp the definition of Sci-Fi, & how that logically prohibits something from being Sci-Fi AND Fantasy; as soon as you add the latter in it is no longer Sci-Fi; it's its own thing, with elements of Sci-Fi (amongst other things).

 

The reason those misunderstandings happen is that traditionally speculative fiction has been categorized into two separate categories -- sci-fi and fantasy -- and most stories aim at being one or the other. So people are accustomed to things being one or the other, and aren't used to the fusion. However, it's good to enter (or help establish) that new ground as that's a good way to be more original.  :)

 
(Note of course that for Bionicle, there isn't just one author, but we're using this as shorthand for the founders, story team, and writers as a whole.)

Yes that is a cause of many misunderstandings. The point about Sci-Fi + Fantasy is a technical one but still; it isn't "Sci-Fi, Fantasy" it's a "Science Fantasy"; there is a different between two genres being listed & 1 composite genre. A technical difference; but as that thread should be clarifying things I don't understand why accuracy isn't instantly valued over something less; clear, hearing Sci-Fi & Fantasy might throw someone off, but if you directly linked or referenced Science-Fantasy, it would be that bit clearer.

 
Actually, if the real author had called it that we would disagree upon reading it, & correct him

Well, there's several problems with the analogy that make this dubious. First, it was written before the genre of political thriller (as defined as such) existed. Anyways, if we imagine that it had been authored today, it would be highly unlikely that anybody wouldn't know what political thrillers are, and we would take the author as likely joking.  :P Aaaanyways, the analogy is so irrelevant, I just felt it needed pointed out. Yet another issue is that there is no recognized (or even logical) spectrum with political thrillers on one end and nursery rhymes on the other.  :P

Suit yourself. Although;

 

Actually, if the real author had called it that we would disagree upon reading it, & correct him

That relies on people actually knowing what a definition is and how to logically extrapolate from the apparent contradictions (in the work et cetera).

 

As clearly people here don't understand that, "fiction based on imagined future scientific or technological advances and major social or environmental changes" excludes something such as life being a component of the universe itself; under present scientific understanding of the universe that is grouped in with not "improbable" but "impossible". It's about possible technologies, & the existence of impossible amgical things kicks it out of Sci-Fi & into the realms of Fantasy with Sci-Fi elements (AKA Science Fantasy), & other genres.

 

The point, again, is that Bionicle does fit the definition of science fantasy, and the main reason people would fail to realize this is if it doesn't occur to them (simply because it's a relatively new genre) to mix the two. Many people don't realize that some stories like Star Wars have already been doing that; they'll be aware of some of them generally but not have thought about it.

 

Yes Bionicle does fit the definition of Science Fantasy; I said that a few of-my-own-posts back.

That Science Fantasy is a mix of the two genres isn't really relevant; it could be considered a subset of Fantasy; in a somewhat similar way to Urban Fantasy being a subset of Fantasy; Science Fantasy however, despite  sharing many elements and tropes with Sci-Fi can not be considered a subset of it, a mix of it yes, but not a subset, for many reasons already stated, of which I have yet to see refuted.

 

People talk about Star Wars being Fantasy in space for good reason; it's a Science Fantasy, but that isn't mutually exclusive with "Fantasy in Space with Advance Technology"; however Science Fantasy is just as accurate as "FiSwAT" although Science Fantasy is a more useful label for sizing constraints if nothing else. It also serves to show that Science Fantasy is a subset of Fantasy; anyone that called Star Wars Science-Fiction though would be rightly derided, it has elements of it but it is not Science Fiction.

 

^(It might seem strange that (in these scenarios) something can be Fantasy + X, but something cannot be Sci-Fi + X, that is because nothing in the definitions of Fantasy exclude Sci-Fi, & in fact (almost) all Sci-Fi could very, very technically be classified as a subset of Fantasy, however not all Fantasy could be Sci-Fi, thus Sci-Fi was given the attribute of excluding certain Fantasy elements (namely; magic), which can eb seen when one compares and contrasts their defintions and their uses...)

 

 

 

however if all of your reasoning was applied to Harry Potter it would probably be considered a Sci-Fi

?? I'm not aware of elements of science fiction in HP.

 

Of course there aren't any but some of the reasoning you use looks flexible enough that you could classify is as that if you wanted to debate it.

 

 

 

to after all there is plenty of working technology in the Muggle-world

No no. That's not how science fiction works. Real-world tech is not considered part of science fiction. The over-category of "speculative fiction" which both sci-fi and fantasy are in refer to use of physics (as a major part of the story) beyond what is normal in the real world. This is the same reason that dropping the One Ring in Mount Doom is not science fiction just because normal gravity is at play. It may seem weird that about the same level of tech as our world in a completely fictional alien world might count as sci-fi under some of the definitions, but nevertheless that's just how the genre is defined; normal cars and houses and the like just aren't seen as sci-fi.

 

EXACTLY! ^([To be clear, I was pointing out how absurd your line of reasoning looks to me.])
But your over-classifying Sci-Fi by allowing magic into it; the existence of magic in the Bionicle World ^([Who decided to actually call the Great Spirit Robot the Matoran Universe? They get no cookies from me.])
 

One of the definitions you yourself cited helps understand why -- "futuristic." (Of course, an alternate past could still be sci-fi; so "a long time ago" in the Star Wars galaxy, an alien world that has a tech level roughly like real-world Earth 2014 would still be called sci-fi. Or a better example is Stargate; they would often have world with humans that developed roughly real-world like tech levels, even down to very similar buildings.)

 

In Harry Potter, then, the Muggle tech is not the emphasis of the story in a "speculative" sense, as Star Trek hyperdrive is. So it is not considered sci-fi.

 

More or less agreed, the 'futurastic' part of it only related to the theories shown being advanced relative to us in the RW; it doesn't actually need to be chronologically ordered like that in the stories universe. Although Bionicle offers no focus on speculative technologies (relative to the RW), therefore it cannot be Sci-Fi. That there is magic in both Bionicle & Star Wars is a reason not to classify them as Sci-Fi.

Both are a type of Science Fantasy. But they are not Sci-Fi.

~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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Okay, I see there's been two new posts after my edit. Lemme put the edit here too:

 

Iblis, this also might need said... in part because I've been getting a particular vibe from your posts here, and it seems hinted at strongly with that part you put in bold in this latest one [that would be next-to-latest now]. Please refrain from "are we there yet?" or "you didn't reply to everything I said" posts in this topic. For one, I have limited time, but don't want to put off some answers for several pages; other people have been bringing up some things that warranted reply too, keep in mind. Second, as I said, this is not the place for extended discussion or debate. If you wish to have a lengthy discussion about any particular subject here, like genre definitions, please either take it to PM or open a new topic about it. :)

 

(Also, it's been frankly very hard to follow your posts. You have been using very ambiguous wordings in several places, and it doesn't help that you keep changing the size of your font. I have nothing against people using stylized posts, but if it's causing you problems you might want to reconsider. Understood, though, about your losing part of your post. I didn't get that from what you said, mainly because I only had time to skim for on-topic content at that point. Also, word to the wise, please avoid monster paragraphs. Bottom line -- make your posts easy to read and worded clearly, and you'll have much better results in discussions. :) And be patient, please. ^_^)

 

[i'd also request you slow down, if you could. :P I didn't know what to expect from this topic, but three pages almost instantly I definitely didn't expect. Anyways, I'll have to go through the whole thing later.]

 

 

Mjol, keep in mind, as the quote from Boidoh points out, that things like the giant robot were always planned. In the context of AIs, for example, "glitches" make sense. And do happen in normal sci-fi shows. However, this doesn't change that some things like elemental powers were meant to be more like "magic". (That's actually not necessarily the best word... but I use it in a nonliteral sense for "alternate physics of a different universe and/or result of science you don't understand" which is roughly what Bionicle powers and things are. :) )

 

LOOK AT THE VERY NEXT WORDS.

I did, I. I was pointing out why you were apparently misunderstanding me, as I did not mean to say anything disputable. Seriously, please slow down and listen to what I'm saying. It will remove the need for long discussion anyways if you just do that. :)

 

I'm not debating whether "The point here is simply that when somebody identifies an element of (for example) fantasy in Bionicle, and assumes it was intended as science fiction only, and thus see it as a failing" That's never what I've debated.

I was pretty sure you weren't; I was just trying to keep the discussion focused, since that's what the misconception answer I'm now planning will be about. :) (As that's generally where the misunderstandings I've seen over the years have come from.)

 

I do however think Greg (as I haven't seen any others 'authors' of it claim it was a Sci-Fi, but I could be wrong), like you, doesn't seem to grasp the definition of Sci-Fi

Whoa there. Where on earth do you get that idea? I didn't even go into the definition of sci-fi in this topic. I generally assume everybody knows it. :P Though I do know them better than most, being an aspiring sci-fi author myself, having taken a college course on sci-fi and fantasy, and being a fan of a lot of both. :) Again, this topic is not for going into encyclopedic detail into things that anybody can just look up.

 

Oh, and another minor problem: you say "the" definition of sci-fi. Actually, even among experts in the field, there are in fact a number of definitions of it, some varying fairly significantly from others. I mentioned a few in this topic. The basic idea is generally well agreed on now, but just be aware of that.

 

As for whether Greg grasps it well... Well, he doesn't have a great grasp on a lot of the more technical details about science. Whether that equates to necessarily not understanding the meaning of science fiction... well, that's a tricky question and way off-topic here. Suffice to say, I think it's much more likely he understands it just fine, but knows his limits and does not try to write hard science fiction, plus he was hired to write for a science fantasy story (somewhat more on the sci-fi side in the way mentioned in that quote Boidoh posted, which made it seem a bit more like fantasy at first).

 

In any event, this topic is not for critiquing Bionicle about such things; it is not meant to replace the entire S&T forum. This is about what is and isn't canon fact. The only relevance to that (off the top of my head anyways) of genre is authorial intent, since that determines why some things will be explained scientifically but others will not be, in-story. :) Even if you think, for example, that Greg doesn't write good science fantasy, the fact remains that this is his intent, and the intent he was given. A reviewing type of topic can go into whether he or others who work on Bionicle met their goals well or not, but that's not what this topic is for.

 

And... outta time again.

 

 

Edit: Oh yeah... I was going to also add something in about the Harry Potter example. Might as well... reeeal quick.

 

Both Harry Potter and Back to the Future feature a flying car. But in Harry Potter, the car's technology features only real-world tech. On the science side of it, there is nothing speculative. Thus, it does not count as science fiction. But in Back to the Future, the car flies on (unexplained, but meant to be tech somehow) wheels that turn down and work something like rockets (apparently). That makes that science fiction.

 

Now, if you had the Back to the Future car flying, but it ran out of gas, and the driver pulled out a magic artifact, and cast a spell on the car so it could keep flying, that would be science fantasy.

 

Make sense? :)
 

Edited by bonesiii

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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Mjol, keep in mind, as the quote from Boidoh points out, that things like the giant robot were always planned.

But were they planned to be explained in a way they were explained? I have nothing against the "world in a robot" concept, but not against the execution of this concept.

 

 

(That's actually not necessarily the best word... but I use it in a nonliteral sense for "alternate physics of a different universe and/or result of science you don't understand" which is roughly what Bionicle powers and things are. :) )

Same here.

 

 

As for whether Greg grasps it well... Well, he doesn't have a great grasp on a lot of the more technical details about science. Whether that equates to necessarily not understanding the meaning of science fiction... well, that's a tricky question and way off-topic here. Suffice to say, I think it's much more likely he understands it just fine, but knows his limits and does not try to write hard science fiction, plus he was hired to write for a science fantasy story (somewhat more on the sci-fi side in the way mentioned in that quote Boidoh posted, which made it seem a bit more like fantasy at first).

Then why the holy crackers did he write a setting in a way he doesn't have a great grasp on?

Edited by Mjolnitor
  • Upvote 1

TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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But were they planned to be explained in a way they were explained?

Probably not, but authors almost always realize that details need established as stories continue -- point is, the AIs having some glitches is consistent with what was planned from the start; the entire Matoran world being artificial. :)

 

Then why the holy crackers did he write a setting in a way he doesn't have a great grasp on?

?? I don't know what you are referring to here. :)

 

But, I really am out of time now. Later folks. ^_^

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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