Morality of the Komau

[Toa Jaxus]

Considering it's power is basically to allow you to control another individual against their will, why is this mask not considered immoral by toa?

[Master Inika]

The real reason is that it was created before the story team thought up the idea of immoral masks. According to BS01, it can't be used to make someone do something against their morals.

[Mr. Lightning Bolt]

The real reason is that it was created before the story team thought up the idea of immoral masks. According to BS01, it can't be used to make someone do something against their morals.

What if there was, say, a cult of Skakdi who thought that sitting down was immoral?

[Jacks]

Then, presumably, a Komau-user would be unable to compel one of those Skakdi to sit down.

[Banana Gunz]

Yeh, that rule seems to balance it pretty well in my mind. It can have some technicalities (like if a beings' morals were just way off) but generally becomes a pretty balanced mask.

 

It's arguable that controlling someone to do anything against their will is immoral (I do generally agree with this) but toa have jobs to do, and they probably wouldn't abuse the mask and would only use it for good.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[Pomegranate]

Yeah, it's up to the Toa to use their powers wisely and responsibly. 

[Regitnui]

The Komau wouldn't work on most of their more determined adversaries. Makuta would shrug it off, if not horribly injuring the moron who tried. We see it used mostly on Rahi and Krekka (who isn't exactly the sharpest sword in the Suva). Combine a 'must have greater will than target' clause with the morality clause, and you can see the Komau dropping to 'moral'.

[bonesiii]

This is actually one of the rare things in fiction where having a bit of a contradiction is not necessarily... contradictory...

 

That is, it's plausible that in-story, characters can have contradictory beliefs. Toa can view, for example, the Crast as immoral, perhaps because it's associated with Makuta, and justify it with the "it repels nature" thing (even though Miru basically does too), but not see the Komau (even with the limit) as like that, perhaps because it was already a popular power (this part's definitely just a theory though as far as I know) long before anybody turned evil, so they were just used to it.

[flynn58]

What if being controlled against your will is against your morals?

[Banana Gunz]

Hmmm the mask works in that it cannot force someone to do something against their will, so in that case the person controlling them would not be able to force them to control someone else against their will...

[Regitnui]

What if being controlled against your will is against your morals?

The operative word there is "being". Mind control attempts to make you do things. If something is done to you, you have no, or very little, choice in the matter. It doesn't matter that being poked repeatedly is against your morals if someone is really inclined to poke you repeatedly.

 

In your example, the Komau wouldn't be able to make you use your Komau on someone else, but it would still affect you.

 

EDIT: Kapura'd

Edited November 23, 2014 by Regitnui

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I feel  it's important to point out that apparently "Get Nidhiki" falls square perfectly into Krekka's morals, somehow.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[Banana Gunz]

I feel  it's important to point out that apparently "Get Nidhiki" falls square perfectly into Krekka's morals, somehow.

 

Krekka's not exactly the brightest zamor in the belt.

 

_{Bionicle puns are just so much fun...}

[Regitnui]

Notice it's "Get Nidhiki", not "Kill Nidhiki" or "Throw Nidhiki overboard". I imagine the Shadowed One delivered many similar orders to him.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

The Komau would've been so much fun to use against the Piraka.

[Sir Kohran]

Other masks can be used immorally - the Akaku (x-ray vision) could be used to violate indoors privacy, the Huna (invisibility) could be used to stalk or eavesdrop, and the Mahiki (shapeshifting) could be used to impersonate others.

 

Ultimately I think it just comes down to 'as good or bad as the person using it.'

Edited November 24, 2014 by Sir Kohran

[Ballom Nom Nom]

Other masks can be used immorally - the Akaku (x-ray vision) could be used to violate indoors privacy, the Huna (invisibility) could be used to stalk or eavesdrop, and the Mahiki (shapeshifting) could be used to impersonate others.

 

Ultimately I think it's just comes down to 'as good or bad as the person using it.'

While that's true, mind control is much more rarely benign. Jedi mind trick type uses are probably the main ones that don't venture into immoral territory. I agree with Master Inika, that there isn't really an in-universe explanation, but rather the fact that the treatment of mask powers changed over time in Bionicle's development.

 

~B~

[Dorek]

This is actually one of the rare things in fiction where having a bit of a contradiction is not necessarily... contradictory...

 

That is, it's plausible that in-story, characters can have contradictory beliefs. Toa can view, for example, the Crast as immoral, perhaps because it's associated with Makuta, and justify it with the "it repels nature" thing (even though Miru basically does too), but not see the Komau (even with the limit) as like that, perhaps because it was already a popular power (this part's definitely just a theory though as far as I know) long before anybody turned evil, so they were just used to it.

Basically this; there are some masks that are immoral specifically because of their association with Makuta (Shelek, for instance) rather than anything inherently wrong with the power itself, so it stands to reason there could be an example in the reverse.

 

Real reason is just because the Komau existed before the immoral mask idea =P.

[Sir Kohran]

 

Other masks can be used immorally - the Akaku (x-ray vision) could be used to violate indoors privacy, the Huna (invisibility) could be used to stalk or eavesdrop, and the Mahiki (shapeshifting) could be used to impersonate others.

 

Ultimately I think it's just comes down to 'as good or bad as the person using it.'

While that's true, mind control is much more rarely benign. Jedi mind trick type uses are probably the main ones that don't venture into immoral territory.

 

But the two examples we have are (or at least seem) benign in their nature - in the MNOLG Lewa uses it on the Nui-Kopen to provide an extra steed to carry the Matoran back to Le-Koro, and in LOMN Onewa uses it on Krekka to get him to stop Nidhiki from attacking.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

Other masks can be used immorally - the Akaku (x-ray vision) could be used to violate indoors privacy, the Huna (invisibility) could be used to stalk or eavesdrop, and the Mahiki (shapeshifting) could be used to impersonate others.

 

Ultimately I think it's just comes down to 'as good or bad as the person using it.'

While that's true, mind control is much more rarely benign. Jedi mind trick type uses are probably the main ones that don't venture into immoral territory.

 

But the two examples we have are (or at least seem) benign in their nature - in the MNOLG Lewa uses it on the Nui-Kopen to provide an extra steed to carry the Matoran back to Le-Koro, and in LOMN Onewa uses it on Krekka to get him to stop Nidhiki from attacking.

 

 

If i recall correctly it's used again in the bohrok animations by pohatu, to tell hewkii to get down and help him (may be wrong, but i don't know what other mask that shape would do similar.)

 

but that's still pretty moral usage.

[Regitnui]

If I remember that scene right, it was just Hewkii (or Huki) being yelled at by Pohatu. He wasn't mind-controlled, but Pohatu did change masks so he and Hafu could land safely (Kakama>Miru)

[bonesiii]

If I remember that scene right, it was just Hewkii (or Huki) being yelled at by Pohatu. He wasn't mind-controlled, but Pohatu did change masks so he and Hafu could land safely (Kakama>Miru)

That would be a good retcon of the scene (for other reasons; read on), but in the animation, he used Mind Control. Of course, Hewkii would have wanted to help Pohatu and Hafu escape, so no moral issues in that example. It was basically just used to send a message telepathically instead of by shouting over the din of the swarms.

 

The reason it perhaps should be retconned is that it's thought there was only one Komau for Po-Koro, and it was shown as still on Turaga Onewa's face at the time. (Pohatu could have shouted really loudly, I guess.)

Edited November 24, 2014 by bonesiii

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

If i recall correctly it's used again in the bohrok animations by pohatu, to tell hewkii to get down and help him

 

That too, good memory.

 

 

 

The reason it perhaps should be retconned is that it's thought there was only one Komau for Po-Koro, and it was shown as still on Turaga Onewa's face at the time.

 

Did the Toa Mata not collect Noble masks then?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

The reason it perhaps should be retconned is that it's thought there was only one Komau for Po-Koro, and it was shown as still on Turaga Onewa's face at the time.

 

Did the Toa Mata not collect Noble masks then?

 

 

Man, of all the things in bionicle that need retconning, that scene is of least concern. :t

[Master Inika]

 

 

 

The reason it perhaps should be retconned is that it's thought there was only one Komau for Po-Koro, and it was shown as still on Turaga Onewa's face at the time.

 

Did the Toa Mata not collect Noble masks then?

 

 

Man, of all the things in bionicle that need retconning, that scene is of least concern. :t

 

They collected one of each Noble Mask their respective Turaga didn't have and gave it to him/her. The in-universe reason at the time was that Noble Masks weren't as useful in a fight. Mind Control, Concelment, Telekinesis, and Illusion not useful in a fight. This is one of the things more in need of a retcon.

 

Let's remember the Mask of Mutation, which does have a rather unsettling power but isn't considered immoral because Miserix never rebelled. It's like the Toa only ask themselves if the power is immoral if a rebellious Makuta wears it. It's a little morally dubious in of itself. Like the power itself being immoral is an extra convenience if bad guy already wears it.

[Dralcax]

Yeah, the morality of masks is probably a subjective thing, and a lot of it probably comes from "A (rebellious) Makuta is using this mask, therefore it must be immoral. Let's make up an excuse to consider it immoral". And Makuta probably wouldn't need such a mask, considering the morality restriction, as they already have enough power and influence to not need a Komau.

[Banana Gunz]

I agree, the mask "morality" thing seems a little wonky. There are some that are immoral for no reason, and some that aren't for no reason as well (I believe Matoro's mask of undeath reanimation was the only exception where it was canonized to be immoral but had an excuse for it).

Edited November 25, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[Master Inika]

I agree, the mask "morality" thing seems a little wonky. There are some that are immoral for no reason, and some that aren't for no reason as well (I believe Matoro's mask of undeath was the only exception where it was canonized to be immoral but had an excuse for it).

*Reanimation

[Regitnui]

The mask of undeath is not the Tryna. Matoro Mahdi wore the Mask of Reanimation until he wore the ignika.

[Akavakaku]

Actually, there's a clear set of rules for whether any mask (besides the Crast and Shelek) is immoral.

The mask simply may not:

1) Have no purpose other than to cause physical (Avsa, Felnas, Aging) or mental (Incomprehension) harm to others

2) Encourage causing physical or mental harm to others (Tryna, Scavenging)

3) Have no purpose other than to cause destruction (Jutlin)

 

The Komau violates none of those.

[Constructelf]

Actually, there's a clear set of rules for whether any mask (besides the Crast and Shelek) is immoral.

The mask simply may not:

1) Have no purpose other than to cause physical (Avsa, Felnas, Aging) or mental (Incomprehension) harm to others

2) Encourage causing physical or mental harm to others (Tryna, Scavenging)

3) Have no purpose other than to cause destruction (Jutlin)

 

The Komau violates none of those.

Mohtrek doesn't fit into any of those, but it's immoral.

 

Does forcible entry into and manipulation of a person's mind not count as mental harm? That one is sort of a grey area for me, as the Komau has a variety of functions but they all involve violating a person's mental "personal space".

[Akavakaku]

Privacy and autonomy are evidently not considered moral rights by Matoran and Toa, which explains the Vahki. As for the Mohtrek, I thought it was more just considered too risky, since if a possible future you summoned present you, you could be spontaneously hurt or killed.

[Banana Gunz]

 

I agree, the mask "morality" thing seems a little wonky. There are some that are immoral for no reason, and some that aren't for no reason as well (I believe Matoro's mask of undeath was the only exception where it was canonized to be immoral but had an excuse for it).

*Reanimation

 

 

The mask of undeath is not the Tryna. Matoro Mahdi wore the Mask of Reanimation until he wore the ignika.

 

Whoops, my bad! Mistake fixed! I get a lot of the mask names mixed up... too many to learn.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

This is actually one of the rare things in fiction where having a bit of a contradiction is not necessarily... contradictory...

 

That is, it's plausible that in-story, characters can have contradictory beliefs. Toa can view, for example, the Crast as immoral, perhaps because it's associated with Makuta, and justify it with the "it repels nature" thing (even though Miru basically does too), but not see the Komau (even with the limit) as like that, perhaps because it was already a popular power (this part's definitely just a theory though as far as I know) long before anybody turned evil, so they were just used to it.

I agree. I think it's more of a symbolic thing. Since the Komau isn't associated with any body of evil like the Crast, Shelek or those masks, it can't be considered immoral. A lot of masks can be used in very awful ways, but I think the Toa trust each other to not commit such atrocities.

 

-NotS

[bonesiii]

 

Actually, there's a clear set of rules for whether any mask (besides the Crast and Shelek) is immoral.

The mask simply may not:

1) Have no purpose other than to cause physical (Avsa, Felnas, Aging) or mental (Incomprehension) harm to others

2) Encourage causing physical or mental harm to others (Tryna, Scavenging)

3) Have no purpose other than to cause destruction (Jutlin)

 

The Komau violates none of those.

Mohtrek doesn't fit into any of those, but it's immoral.

But the rule the Mohtrek breaks -- messing with time -- also isn't broken by the Komau.

 

 

 

Does forcible entry into and manipulation of a person's mind not count as mental harm?

It certainly could. But it's also possible the power has some kind of limit against it. What we know is the limit that was stated. Beyond that, it's debatable. Just keep in mind that technically ANY action taken against a bad guy could be considered "harm" in some sense or another. There was even somebody who argued once that a protocage was harmful as it was like solitary confinement which can cause psychological harm (even though the alternative would be death). At some point the fact that a bad guy brings it upon themselves comes into play, especially with heroes who have a near-absolute rule against killing (few good guys are that considerate ).

[Akavakaku]

I thought the problem with the Mohtrek, as I mentioned above, was that it was just too great a risk to take. And the Mask of Undeath is probably just unpopular because a) Toa want mask powers they can use now and b) the idea of becoming a zombie is pretty creepy.

[Toa R. Lih Nit]

Moral mask is a silly terminology.

They are tools, the user is who decide if is moral or not.

[man774]

The Komau would've been so much fun to use against the Piraka.

 

No morals, no problem. I must admit, it would be a whole lot more fun than using it on a toa.

Edited November 27, 2014 by man774

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

I got something short and sweet of why the Komau is not immoral with Toa...

Because they don't think of making there target kill there self or jump off a cliff into shark infested waters!

 

Then, presumably, a Komau-user would be unable to compel one of those Skakdi to sit down.

Or compel eljay to jump up the yell.