Voya Nui, Mahri Nui, and the Southern Continent

[IcarusBen]

Here's my question; Where is Voya Nui. From what I can gather, it's located above the Southern Continent. That implies to me that it's on the surface of Aqua Magna, but Mahri Nui complicates things because it's UNDER Voya Nui. Does this mean that it's on top of the robot but still underwater, is it inside one of the domes, or is it underneath the Southern Continent?

[Akavakaku]

It's a part of the continent that blasted straight through the robot's exterior and up to Aqua Magna's surface during the Cataclysm. Mahri Nui formed from lava flows in the island's bay and then fell to the seafloor, outside the robot.

What I don't get is where the Pit was before the Cataclysm.

[IcarusBen]

I have a theory about that. The Pit is kinda like the Warehouse from Warehouse 13; it's always moving, typically wherever the center of power is. In this case, the Pit follows the Mask of Life. After it started it's countdown, the Pit stopped following the mask, and the Pit was destroyed during the awakening of Mata Nui. I suppose the Order has to put the Pit somewhere else, like wherever the ocean is on Spherus Magna.

[The 1st Shadow]

Here's a poorly-drawn diagram to help explain it:

 

Hope this helps.

(Mata Nui and Metru Nui were added to help give some perspective.)

Edited November 25, 2014 by ~T1S~

[TERIDAX941]

Biosector states that the Pit is in the southernmost part of the MU. So somewhere in the legs methinks.

[Iblis]

Biosector states that the Pit is in the southernmost part of the MU. So somewhere in the legs methinks.

 

Interesting... this image & other things through the story made me think it would have been somewhere .... well near Mahri Nui / the centre of the GSR's body. I mean how far do the waters of the Pit stretch?

[The 1st Shadow]

The Pit is built into the outer plating of the GSR's chest, near where Mahri Nui landed when it broke off from Voya Nui.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Yeah, I agree that the location of the Pit was very confusing. Voya Nui made sense, but it the placement of it is weird considering it is atop the Universe Core, which is Mata Nui's heart. Finally, I have questions about the Pit:

 

-How come no one noticed the Pit was shattered? Botar kept taking prisoners there but shouldn't he have noticed something was off considering that it was flooded after the Great Cataclysm? 

 

-NotS

[Iblis]

-How come no one noticed the Pit was shattered? Botar kept taking prisoners there but shouldn't he have noticed something was off considering that it was flooded after the Great Cataclysm?

 

Well officially it's because he teleported in & out to quick to notice anything. ...but I reckon any moment of contact with water would be enough for human nerves to register, even if you don't really know what other than 'funny'; but he's not a human... Unless teleporting in displaces everything around you with a (large-enough-)gap between you & it; or otherwise creates a funny feeling, & hey as for sight there could be a few complications there.

 

Generally because Botar is a fool. Someone should have been double checking things, but hey, intelligence & arrogance are funny things...

[Quisoves Potoo]

It seems odd that he would not notice an increase in pressure, if nothing else.

 

Perhaps he doesn't complete the jaunt when he delivers prisoners? After all, the Pit was never a particularly desirable place to visit. It's conceivable that he simply arranges his teleportations so as to redirect himself back to Daxia.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[Iblis]

Perhaps he doesn't complete the jaunt when he delivers prisoners? After all, the Pit was never a particularly desirable place to visit. It's conceivable that he simply arranges his teleportations so as to redirect himself back to Daxia.

 

Wait up; Are you saying that he teleports prisoners there but doesn't himself? &/or teleporting to somewhere via somewhere else (in this case, the pit) is somehow different to teleporting to a place & then straight out? Or..?

[Quisoves Potoo]

Wait up; Are you saying that he teleports prisoners there but doesn't himself? &/or teleporting to somewhere via somewhere else (in this case, the pit) is somehow different to teleporting to a place & then straight out? Or..?

 

I was suggesting that it is merely enough for him to begin a teleportation to the Pit, and that he can plot an extra leg of the journey, as it were, exclusive to him. Thus, the atoms of the prisoners are reassembled in the Pit, but he rematerializes elsewhere. I can't think of any canon sources that contradict my hypothesis. We don't see Brutaka's arrival, and while Botar is seen by Lesovikk carrying Karzahni off, that was a case of someone being taken from the Pit, and presumably Botar's first time in the waters below Voya Nui.

 

EDIT: I see that Botar pops in to grab the staff of Artahka in "Into the Darkness." So this would be his first time there, under my hypothesis.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[bonesiii]

To clear things up in the order raised:

1) Akavakaku's answers are correct. Neither VN nor MahriN were in domes (though of course VN came from the Southern Continent and was returned there in 2007).

2) The Pit is in the ceiling of the Southern Continent dome, near where Voya Nui broke through when it rocketed up to the Aqua Magna ocean.

3) No, the Pit doesn't move around. That would be Destral. However, after the Great Cataclysm ruined the Pit that they had for most of history, a new Pit was made in the vicinity of Mahri Nui.

4) No, the Pit wasn't in the legs. "Southernmost" refers to of the main inhabited regions of the MU; the legs were not inhabited, for the most part.

5) It's news to me that Voya Nui made sense, NotS. Explaining it coherently is not easy, although I did come up with one complicated explanation, used in my retelling. It doesn't help that the official map showed it as so huge that the resulting hole in the GSR should have instantly flooded the whole MU (obviously the "actual" VN must be way smaller).

6) I don't think the placement over Karda Nui is weird for VN. That's actually one of the parts that makes sense; one place in the whole MU "rocketed upward", and the heart is a unique place. What's odd is that for some reason, Greg has seemed to resist explanations connecting these two dots. I did come up with another explanation for the retelling though.

7) I'm not sure that nobody noticed the Pit was shattered, but if history is 100,000 years, going out of regularly contact with Hydraxon might (might) be normal for even a thousand years or so. For some reason I don't recall what the story established about this offhand, though. Still would seem weird, though. Or maybe they knew full well, but still needed to send the prisoners somewhere, and that's where all the Maxilos robots were, after all. I thought, though, that they were well aware. Somebody designated the new Pit. Whether that was the Maxilos robots on their own or Helryx's order makes little difference really.

8) It seems unlikely to me that Botar would teleport, but make himself go to another destination than others he's using the same power on at the same time. There would be a much simpler way to solve this, though, if a "prisoner reception" area simply never flooded. Or maybe he just doesn't bother to materialize in the Pit. Or maybe he's well aware of what happened in the Pit (it would be nice to know if there's canon confirmation he doesn't; two of you seem to think so, so where from? ).

[Quisoves Potoo]

8) It seems unlikely to me that Botar would teleport, but make himself go to another destination than others he's using the same power on at the same time. There would be a much simpler way to solve this, though, if a "prisoner reception" area simply never flooded. Or maybe he just doesn't bother to materialize in the Pit. Or maybe he's well aware of what happened in the Pit (it would be nice to know if there's canon confirmation he doesn't; two of you seem to think so, so where from? ).

Perhaps I'm just being thick, but you seem to say "no, that's unlikely" and then offer up the same thing as a probable explanation.

 

As for him not knowing, I believe that was established in the 2007 BIONICLEStory.com "Ask Greg" section. If I recall correctly, someone asked why the Order of Mata Nui didn't realize that the Pit was flooded with Mutagen, and Greg responded by saying that Botar never spends more than a few seconds there. It's a silly explanation, and I wouldn't mind seeing it retconned, since it exists only to answer a question.

 

Though if we are to try to make it work, I would suggest that the higher-ups in the OOMN knew of the Pit's condition, but hid it from their underlings, for fear that the less utilitarian among them would object. I seem to recall Botar being described as fiercely principled.

[bonesiii]

Was going to edit this in, but seeing as how there's a new post:

 

Okay, it looks like this is what was going on with the "not staying long enough" thing:

 

Botar is not, however, immune to the Pit Mutagen; he simply never stayed long enough to be mutated when depositing criminals.

This makes it sound like that was just about why he wasn't mutated, not about not knowing about the flooding. It could be taken to imply it's because he knows that there's water there that he doesn't stay long. I didn't find anything confirming or denying, on several related pages, whether Helryx/etc. knew about the Pit damage. Several pages do make it sound like the Maxilos robots alone handled making the new Pit, though.

 

Quisoves, read what I said more carefully; an instant second trip would not be the same as the simultaneous idea (but it appears both are confirmed wrong anyways). Also, the explanation for what it's for, doesn't seem silly. If the mutagen takes more than a few seconds to work (also consistent with the Mahritoran's experience), and he never stays that long, how exactly would he know? He knows when he needs to teleport prisoners, yes, but this doesn't prove he knows everything related to the Order; that is probably a specialized power. Also, we don't know how often he goes there. Are the effects cumulative? How many total seconds has he spent there post-GC? We don't know those things, so we can't prove it isn't reasonable.

[Iblis]

I thought you were just talking about how that quote wasn't related to Botars awareness of the Pit being flooded, but the next paragraph kind of looks like you're addressing both so...

 

If the mutagen takes more than a few seconds to work (also consistent with the Mahritoran's experience), and he never stays that long, how exactly would he know? He knows when he needs to teleport prisoners, yes, but this doesn't prove he knows everything related to the Order; that is probably a specialized power. Also, we don't know how often he goes there. Are the effects cumulative? How many total seconds has he spent there post-GC? We don't know those things, so we can't prove it isn't reasonable.

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

Well, to start off with, when Botar teleports into a body-of-liquid, is that specific-liquid-where-his-body-arrives annihilated? auto-teleported elsewhere? or displaced to the sides (of whatever teleports in)? (Or..?)

 

When Botar teleports, does he take a layer of air around him as well (presuming he teleported form somewhere with air)? does air rush into the space he left? or is it auto-filled with something else? (Or..?)

 

There are quite a few unknowns (well, to my knowledge), but if we assume that liquid (& air) are displaced, being pushed away form him when he teleports into them, & we also assume that he doesn't teleport a layer of air (or a 'void', et cetera) around him, then when he teleports into a liquid, he comes into contact with it.

 

Now we don't know how his 'biology' works, but generally I don't see why it shouldn't be able to detect contact with a substance one can otherwise feel ^{(WMG: maybe Botar doesn't have normal touch-sensation..?)} something even if they only touched it for the smallest length of time; so generally it breaks down to one of these many assumptions are incorrect; or he otherwise ignored this sensation ^{(maybe teleportation effects his senses somewhat?).}

 

But it seems really strange that they wouldn't have been trying to keep track of the Pit, not just assume Hydraxon has it all sorted when they're not keeping track of him either... As it is I think they probably did know (& probably were keeping track of Hydraxon) but didn't feel they could do much about it or something... Otherwise it makes them look silly.

 

But really " we can't prove it isn't reasonable." I don't disagree, but that doesn't stop 

 

If I recall correctly, someone asked why the Order of Mata Nui didn't realize that the Pit was flooded with Mutagen, and Greg responded by saying that Botar never spends more than a few seconds there. It's a silly explanation, and I wouldn't mind seeing it retconned, since it exists only to answer a question.

 

This being a really good point; as "t exists only to answer a question" in a very odd and kinda boring way...

 

_{(As for how Pit Mutagen works, I would guess that it needs to 'sink in a bit' so if your only exposed for a very short amount of time, it will be washed/blown [et cetera] off before it can take [noticeable] effect, but this is a guess which I can't prove, & I don't think this aspect of it matters that much here.)}

[bonesiii]

Something I thought of adding belatedly -- I'm pretty sure you have to breathe it in to be mutated, at least into a water breather. The Mahritoran go around in contact with it for long amounts of time, with most of their body, but with a bubble around their faces to prevent them from breathing it in, and are not further mutated evidently. Greg was probably implying Botar simply held his breath, which would be natural to do in water.

 

As for the whole displacement thing, it always seems implied that "fluids" (including air) are pushed aside just enough to make room for the teleporter. I don't think there's a swap. I think his body would be in contact with the water, but it wouldn't appear inside his lungs.

[Toa of Italy]

On the issue of Botar not knowing the Pit was flooded, I'd say he did know about it. However, the Order decided not to do anything about it. There may be multiple reasons for this.

 

1. The Order would have found it difficult to act. Hydraxon was dead, many of the Maxilos robots had probably been destroyed too. Given that the Pit prisoners were probably quite powerful, it would have been difficult to recapture them all. In addition, the Pit was shattered, so they would have needed to find a new prison for them, not easy considering that they were supposed never to return to MU society. The only candidate would have been Daxia or another Order base (if any existed), but Helryx might not have wanted them kept so close to Order secrets.

 

2. Helryx probably judged them no threat. Mutated as they were, they would never have been able to return to land. She might even have regarded it as a fitting punishment for them. She sent an Order agent to keep an eye on things (she references to this in BIONICLE World) and left them to be. You could ask why the Order didn't intervene when the prisoners did become a threat to someone, meaning the Mahri Nui Matoran. I don't know, but then again the Order chose not to intervene in other situations as well. They might have seen the Mahri Nui Matoran as not important enough to risk revealing themselves.

 

On the location of the Pit, bonesiii, are you sure it isn't in the legs? I've always imagined it as carved in the walls of a Southern Island dome. It wouldn't have had a gateway to the MU, so that the only way to get in or out would have been to teleport, like Botar did. When the Great Cataclysm occurred, the walls of the Pit ruptured. Water from Aqua Magna flooded it and I theorized that a gap would have opened leading to the MU as well. This would have allowed Icarax, Lesovikk and the Zyglak inhabiting the Pit to travel upwards to Mahri Nui (this route, again, is referenced to in BIONICLE World). As for why Voya Nui ended there, I would imagine that it wasn't just catapulted up by the cataclysm, but south as well. This is why, when it dropped down again at the end of 2007 it didn't just go down vertically, but moved horizontally for a period of time.

[Quisoves Potoo]

Was going to edit this in, but seeing as how there's a new post:

 

Okay, it looks like this is what was going on with the "not staying long enough" thing:

 

Botar is not, however, immune to the Pit Mutagen; he simply never stayed long enough to be mutated when depositing criminals.

This makes it sound like that was just about why he wasn't mutated, not about not knowing about the flooding. It could be taken to imply it's because he knows that there's water there that he doesn't stay long. I didn't find anything confirming or denying, on several related pages, whether Helryx/etc. knew about the Pit damage. Several pages do make it sound like the Maxilos robots alone handled making the new Pit, though.

 

Quisoves, read what I said more carefully; an instant second trip would not be the same as the simultaneous idea (but it appears both are confirmed wrong anyways). Also, the explanation for what it's for, doesn't seem silly. If the mutagen takes more than a few seconds to work (also consistent with the Mahritoran's experience), and he never stays that long, how exactly would he know? He knows when he needs to teleport prisoners, yes, but this doesn't prove he knows everything related to the Order; that is probably a specialized power. Also, we don't know how often he goes there. Are the effects cumulative? How many total seconds has he spent there post-GC? We don't know those things, so we can't prove it isn't reasonable.

An instant second trip is what I meant when I used the phrase "second leg of the journey."

 

I cannot find anything about Botar in "Ask Greg" section I mentioned. That said, I distinctly remember reading that Botar never noticed that the Pit was flooded. Perhaps someone in 2007 on BZP asked Greg, and the answer made its way to Wikipedia (which was remarkably well maintained in regards to BIONICLE lore)?

 

Also, for what it's worth, Destiny War has the following passage:

 

Brutaka had informed her of the presence of Hydraxon in the Pit, as well as the events that took place there.

So, on one hand, Helryx seems to have given up Hydraxon for dead. On the other, she accepts that it is he who now operates in the Pit. And she doesn't learn of the events taking place there save by a rogue member of the Order. So, it seems safe to say that the OOMN really doesn't care too much about what goes on down there. Which ties in with my earlier suggestion that the higher-ups were keeping knowledge of what happened there due to the Great Cataclysm from their minions. Botar, from what I recall, would not be the sort to abandon prisoners to mutation or death.

Biosector01 says

 

Besides his frightening looks, Botar is known for his pure black and white view of the world, his single-minded devotion to his job, and his long list of successes, having never failed to deliver his captives to the Pit.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[Jacks]

On the location of the Pit, bonesiii, are you sure it isn't in the legs? I've always imagined it as carved in the walls of a Southern Island dome.

It couldn't possibly be in the legs, or how would it have ended up so close to Voya Nui & Maihri Nui?

 

It wouldn't have had a gateway to the MU, so that the only way to get in or out would have been to teleport, like Botar did. When the Great Cataclysm occurred, the walls of the Pit ruptured. Water from Aqua Magna flooded it and I theorized that a gap would have opened leading to the MU as well.

...That's not a theory, though. That's literally exactly what happened in canon.

 

As for why Voya Nui ended there, I would imagine that it wasn't just catapulted up by the cataclysm, but south as well. This is why, when it dropped down again at the end of 2007 it didn't just go down vertically, but moved horizontally for a period of time.

It was actually catapulted north, not south, so this can't be the case either.

 

About midway to the bottom, the island slowly changed direction, curving in a graceful arc toward the south.

Plus, keep in mind just how big the GSR is. If Voya Nui had to float all the way back to the abdomen from the legs, the Mahri would have been swimming after it for weeks, if not months.

[The 1st Shadow]

Why the legs? That makes no sense. The location of Mahri Nui was on the surface of the robot's chest, and all the Pit prisoners plus Hydraxon and the Maxilos robots were all in that same area. Also, remember that Botar dropped off Brutaka in that same area, allowing the latter to confront Teridax. Takadox and Kalmah followed Mantax into the pit, and the Dekar-Hydraxon captured Matoro and took him nearby to the damaged prison. Do you realize how many dozens, if not hundreds, of miles they would have to swim just to get from the Pit to Mahri Nui?

 

It's in the chest. 

[bonesiii]

Okay, I see I was Kapura'd on this, mostly, but might as well be clear:

On the location of the Pit, bonesiii, are you sure it isn't in the legs?

Yep. It was in ceiling above the Southern Continent, near where Voya Nui punctured that dome, as said previously. The proximity to that massive impact was why the Pit was so heavily damaged despite being on the top of the robot, farthest away from the robot's impact with the Aqua Magna ocean floor. Plus you could swim in a reasonably short time from the Pit/Mahri Nui area to the hole that VN made.

 

Noted, Quisoves, about the second trip. Regardless, now disproved.

 

Yeah, until I see a quote confirming otherwise, I would presume the Order was well aware it was flooded, and a false rumor among the fans may have started because of that quote about the mutagen. The "events" Brutaka let Helryx know of, BTW, could easily be recent events. If, however, it's ever proven that they didn't know about the water, I'd invoke an air pocket. Simplest answer.

[Quisoves Potoo]

The "events" Brutaka let Helryx know of, BTW, could easily be recent events.

That was my interpretation as well. My point being that if Helryx only learned of what went on with the Ignika in the Pit from a prisoner of it, she likely didn't have a regular contact there.

 

My issue is not with the Mutagen, but rather with Botar's morality. He has a very "black and white" view of things, so to him, I imagine, a prisoner is kept safely in prison, not left to fend for himself and risk death at the hands of undersea beasts or mutated inmates. He would be horrified by such an arrangement, I should think. My hypothesis is that Helryx decided that the mutagen in the Pit was among the least of the Order's worries, and simply never told Botar that it had been flooded.

 

[Akavakaku]

As for why the entire Southern Continent didn't instantly flood, I thought this was a kind of "healing system" of Mata Nui: the gap was mostly sealed by fragile protodermis that served as a kind of scar tissue, the same that formed the Cord anchoring Voya Nui in place. A small flaw in the scar might have allowed the Great Waterfall to form.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

5) It's news to me that Voya Nui made sense, NotS. Explaining it coherently is not easy, although I did come up with one complicated explanation, used in my retelling. It doesn't help that the official map showed it as so huge that the resulting hole in the GSR should have instantly flooded the whole MU (obviously the "actual" VN must be way smaller).

Yeah, I never really considered those inconsistencies. xD I never really batted an eye at Voya Nui's descent as it was pretty obvious what happened and where it was going. The Pit, on the other hand, was never really clear. But yeah, I guess if you account all the small details the Southern Continent/Voya Nui thing was pretty inconsistent in all forms of media.

 

-NotS

[bonesiii]

As for why the entire Southern Continent didn't instantly flood, I thought this was a kind of "healing system" of Mata Nui: the gap was mostly sealed by fragile protodermis that served as a kind of scar tissue, the same that formed the Cord anchoring Voya Nui in place. A small flaw in the scar might have allowed the Great Waterfall to form.

I presume you're trying to say that you hold the map portrayal of the size of VN as plausible. Three huge problems with that:

 

1) It makes virtually no sense to say that the hole self-healed over 90+% but somehow never had enough to just seal the rest completely. I can think of some ways out of this, but they're made irrelevant by point #3 here... just bringing it up to be thorough.

 

2) Unless it healed essentially instantly, a hole that size would still flood most of the MU in the initial moments before the healing process reached the point where the hole was now small.

 

3) Most importantly, the hole didn't heal at all until after VN was able to pass back through it in 2007. So if the hole was ever that huge, it was that size all along, unless you want to invoke a sudden (and instantly reversed) enlarging in 2007 plot that somehow nobody noticed.

 

So I see no reasonable way out except to just say sizes aren't reliable in that map. It was really meant more to show shapes of lands and general locations; there's already some nonliteral sizing in the distances between them compared to their displayed sizes; all the lands have to be smaller and with much more distance to fit in domes that in turn fit into the giant robot, especially in the stomach area, because of the gappy design of the robot. So since that's not meant as literal anyways, there's not much problem with taking the VN size as way exaggerated.

[Akavakaku]

Oh, I never meant that Voya Nui was as big as shown in the picture. I just meant that an ISLAND-sized hole, even if it's a little island, would make a crazy enormous waterfall. I find it far more likely that it healed. And as for why it didn't fully heal, there are lots of potential reasons. Maybe the "scar" rock wasn't very solid, and had enough gaps for the water to find a way through. (Evidence: the Cord was hollow.) Or maybe Mata Nui wasn't healthy enough following the Cataclysm to heal fully. Or maybe water just gradually eroded a hole in it and formed a natural-ish cave.

 

What I just realized makes the least sense, though, is how Voya Nui made it through its dome and the robot's exterior without being reduced to a barren chunk of rubble.

[bonesiii]

Oh, I never meant that Voya Nui was as big as shown in the picture. I just meant that an ISLAND-sized hole, even if it's a little island, would make a crazy enormous waterfall.

Well it was a huge waterfall, but then the giant robot is much, much bigger. As long as VN is basically a dot on the map (as in my own portrayal), it could work. It also helps that there was only one village on VN.

 

I find it far more likely that it healed.

As I said, canonically this is not likely. It's a possible headcanon, but yeah.

 

And as for why it didn't fully heal, there are lots of potential reasons. Maybe the "scar" rock wasn't very solid, and had enough gaps for the water to find a way through. (Evidence: the Cord was hollow.)

The scar rock would have to be a much weaker type of rock, because VN would have to knock it easily aside to return (it wasn't returning at bulletlike speeds like when it left, recall). I think it's questionable whether that would hold up to the ocean at all, actually. But possible.

 

Main reason for quoting this part though is to ask how the Cord is relevant. (It was hollow because it was a lava tube and that's how they generally are. And that has nothing to do with this as far as I know.)

 

Or maybe Mata Nui wasn't healthy enough following the Cataclysm to heal fully.

That's possible, but then why heal at all? Just seems odd for an explanation. I think the island being very small fits the evidence better.

 

Or maybe water just gradually eroded a hole in it and formed a natural-ish cave.  What I just realized makes the least sense, though, is how Voya Nui made it through its dome and the robot's exterior without being reduced to a barren chunk of rubble.

Yeah, that's widely agreed. That's what happens when your story team evidently doesn't have physics geeks on it.

 

There's various options anyways though that can make it work. The Mask of Life doing something to the island in self-protection seems likely. Or the rock of the island just might be an especially tough type, perhaps intended that way by the GBs just to ensure the caves for the Ignika would be stable. The shape of the island also works nicely like a bullet if it flipped around once while shooting up (and that happens all the time to projectiles), so that the knifelike base of the island hit first, and the "surface" was upside-down (so the village survived, albeit with some fatalities).

 

There's other issues too. My retelling's portrayal mentions them and shows exactly what would have to happen to overcome them. A matter of timing and some other things, I'd rather not spoil it all.