The Protectors Die Naturally/Biologically Reproduce?

[The Meta Knight]

The Bionicle Website has been updated today, including a little bit of hints about the upcoming story in the descriptions, including this little tidbit from the description of The Region of Fire:

 

 

The Protectors wear sacred Elemental Masks that have been passed down through the generations along with the Prophecy of Heroes, which foretells the coming of the heroic Toa.

 

And, slightly more notably, this one from the Protector of Fire's bio:

 

 

passed down through the generations from father to son

 

Passed down through the generations and from father to son? This either means there's some SERIOUS typos on the website, or the more likely reason: unlike the Matoran of old, the Protectors can [biologically] reproduce and probably also die from natural causes/age.

 

Is there anything wrong with this theory/fact? Or is there another logical explanation? Discuss!

 

Here's some linkage proof. And a bit more for the in-denial.

[The 1st Shadow]

Well, the Agori reproduced biologically. I don't see why LEGO wouldn't make a similar move with the new line.

[The Meta Knight]

Well, the Agori reproduced biologically. I don't see why LEGO wouldn't make a similar move with the new line.

 

I know that. I'm merely contrasting them with the Matoran. I honestly like the idea. I think this is a change in the right direction on the part of Lego. Plus, I don't recall (on a whim) anything in gen one about the Agori dying, whereas it's implied that there is a reason for the Protectors to pass on their masks and legends throughout the generations, which implies death exists for them.

Edited November 28, 2014 by The Meta Knight

[TERIDAX941]

Well they've refrained from saying they're biomechanical yet, so for the newbies who just jumped on the bandwagon, they would naturally assume that the protectors (and by extension the Toa) can live and die just like any normal being. Of course people who grew up with the old story would assume they're all biomechanical, and would think that the rules the Matoran were governed by still exist, but that doesn't have to be the case. Needless to say I'm interested to see how this plays out.

[Aanchir]

I think this will be a good thing for the story. It means that there can still be mysteries about the past without invariably resorting to saying that all the characters who should have been alive back then have laser-targeted amnesia. It means that characters' ages can actually matter, rather than all of them being unbelievably ancient (and for all intents and purposes, immortal).

[Irrie]

This is also good because if they have a character development similar to Takua's (oldest being in the universe, yet acts somewhat young), it will not turn out to be incredibly awkward. 

But, they probably will not since that's old canon. 

[Sumiki]

Members have been obsessed with this question since I can remember.
 
In any event, this likely means romance will be canon, so that's nice, even if it's too late to save the OTPs of G1.

[Cambion]

so i'm assuming that if there's biological reproduction, that means that either the Protectors' gender ratio is 1:1 or that there's some serious gayness (and transness) abound

 

....or possibly both

Edited November 28, 2014 by Arc

[Banana Gunz]

I definitely think this was a good move. Makes things much more interesting and make time more of a factor into things. Making age a bigger thing is probably one of the smartest improvements I've seen with B15 so far (among the many other brilliant things that excite me!).

[Regitnui]

Death can be a thing without age. Look at the Tolkienesque elf: matures in 20 years, lives to 100 (or more) and dies without hitting old age. Though I do like the idea of differently aged Protectors, like the Air protector would be overly-serious, having just come into the station, the Earth protector more relaxed since he's been there for most of his life...

 

I'm also taking this as permission to see the Jungle, Water and Ice protectors as female.

[Cambion]

I'm also taking this as permission to see the Jungle, Water and Ice protectors as female.

better yet, why not have all six tribes be mixed-gender?

 

(of course this is all without canon confirmation....)

[The Meta Knight]

 

I'm also taking this as permission to see the Jungle, Water and Ice protectors as female.

better yet, why not have all six tribes be mixed-gender?

 

(of course this is all without canon confirmation....)

 

That would be desirable.

 

But I'm kinda at the same time hoping (for reasons concerning nostalgia) that they keep the main Protectors gender ratios the same as before. But it would be desirable for them to make the gender ratio 1:1 for the Protectors as a species. Of course, it would be desirable to have the individual tribes be of mixed genders. Not only do I want them to be, but I also couldn't see it any other way at this point. But as for the main Protectors, (the elders/leaders acting as mentors to the individual Toa,) I really think it's best in the end that their genders are the same as their respective Toa. P.S. Don't be offended. I'm entitled to an opinion, as is everyone

I think this will be a good thing for the story. It means that there can still be mysteries about the past without invariably resorting to saying that all the characters who should have been alive back then have laser-targeted amnesia. It means that characters' ages can actually matter, rather than all of them being unbelievably ancient (and for all intents and purposes, immortal).

 

That was the only plot filler that really got on my nerves.

I'm glad they're (supposedly) changing it.

[Sumiki]

But I'm kinda at the same time hoping (for reasons concerning nostalgia) that they keep the main Protectors gender ratios the same as before. But it would be desirable for them to make the gender ratio 1:1 for the Protectors as a species. Of course, it would be desirable to have the individual tribes be of mixed genders. Not only do I want them to be, but I also couldn't see it any other way at this point. But as for the main Protectors, (the elders/leaders acting as mentors to the individual Toa,) I really think it's best in the end that their genders are the same as their respective Toa. P.S. Don't be offended. I'm entitled to an opinion, as is everyone

 

There's really not much of a point in having a 1:1 ratio if it's not expressed in the sets. If the sets are 5:1, the ratio including any other characters is a moot point. This is a step in the right direction when it comes to getting close to a fair representation because the announcement points (with some assumptions on the part of fans) to mixed-gender elements.

 

Combined with the steps LEGO has taken in the past few years to be more inclusive, I don't think it's an unfair assumption.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I noticed that too. Really cool stuff. Especially interesting cause LEGO never referred to anything like this in the original Bionicle.

 

-NotS

[fishers64]

The whole thing just strikes me as awkward. If there's more female protectors than female Toa, there's going to be a lot of subtext that people are going to read into. 

 

Dying naturally and having normal lifespans doesn't strike me as quite as bad of an idea. It's a departure from the old, but they need something new anyway. I'd like to see how it plays out and fits into the story before making judgments.  

[Regitnui]

The whole thing just strikes me as awkward. If there's more female protectors than female Toa, there's going to be a lot of subtext that people are going to read into.

Personally, I'm reading Kopaka and Lewa as female too, regardless of what the official story is. That makes Waihrua (sp?) female and Akamai male (if I have them right).

[Munty]

There can't be ANY female protectors according to the original quote as the masks are passed down 'from father to son' therefore suggesting all protectors are, were and will always be male. The gender of the Toa and protectors has literally zero effect on the normal gender divide on Okoto though does it? We could have 11/12 sets be male (like 2001) but the villages could be 2:1 in favour of a female majority for all we know. 

 

Also consider that just because we're getting some form of reproduction it needn't necessarily be sexual in nature... There could be a 'red star' system in effect which essentially removes the 'father' soon after the 'son' is created. The father could then return as the son's son (his own grandson essentially) Another alternative would be instant reincarnation from one body to another so the father and son are technically the same being, though this makes less sense as far as handing down the mask and knowledge goes...

 

Both these options would maintain a steady population which I see as quite beneficial for the story-telling and while it could potentially cause some limitations they could easily be overcome by introducing a new civilisation/population to the mix!

[Regitnui]

It's a line marketed at young boys. Of course it's father to son. Mother to daughter, or matrilineal succession, is no stranger than patrilineal succession. I prefer a different gender mix, and it's not like it changes anyone else's experience of the franchise.

 

Um... by using the phrase "father to son", they imply mothers and daughters. While there are other options (Protectors that reproduce by budding! Pop, pop, pop!) sexual reproduction is familiar and therefore simpler. Any kid is familiar in passing with the concept of family and how it's created. Why change it, unless they're rabidly avoiding females in the story.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Regitnui

[Jacks]

@Regitnui: I don't think anybody is assuming that all the villagers of Okoto are male. The issue is that LEGO is going "all the tribes contain multiple genders, so we can make every single set a male character" like in 2009.

[Alyska]

I'm half expecting maybe one exception to the "father to son" thing among the current protectors- lack of a male heir, the daughter in question showing exceptional leadership skills, etc. But the other half of me thinks they'll all be male because that's the way things tend to work around here.

 

What I don't get is why explicitly father to son? Why make a society who are meant to be good guys have a political system that is rigidly patriarchal? Why could the masks not be passed down "from generation to generation"?

[Aanchir]

It's interesting to see how some of the changes we're seeing for the new story are changes that were previously tried out in the 2009 storyline. For instance, in 2009, the BIONICLE team...

• ...used a number of generic terms like "Fire Tribe" rather than universe-specific jargon.
• ...changed the elemental affilation of the green sets from "air" to "jungle".
• ...gave characters the ability to form the same sorts of romantic relationships as humans, and eliminated the single-gender tribes rule.
• ...reduced the number of arbitrary powers that each character had at their disposal.
• ...emphasized characters' elemental themes in their designs more than ever before.
• ...returned the story to a tribal setting where heroes with supernatural powers were something new and rare and special.

It seems like these changes are things that even the OLD story team had realized were good ideas. But the last time they tried to roll out these changes, BIONICLE was already on its last legs and it really amounted to "too little, too late". This time around, BIONICLE will start out with these kinds of ideas, while also drawing on some of the most timeless story and set design elements from BIONICLE's most successful years (2001–2003).

[Doctor Makuta]

Hopefully they are bi gendered as well instead of just male in all but one tribe, females exclusively in one tribe.

[Banana Gunz]

It's interesting to see how some of the changes we're seeing for the new story are changes that were previously tried out in the 2009 storyline. For instance, in 2009, the BIONICLE team...

• ...used a number of generic terms like "Fire Tribe" rather than universe-specific jargon.
• ...changed the elemental affilation of the green sets from "air" to "jungle".
• ...gave characters the ability to form the same sorts of romantic relationships as humans, and eliminated the single-gender tribes rule.
• ...reduced the number of arbitrary powers that each character had at their disposal.
• ...emphasized characters' elemental themes in their designs more than ever before.
• ...returned the story to a tribal setting where heroes with supernatural powers were something new and rare and special.

It seems like these changes are things that even the OLD story team had realized were good ideas. But the last time they tried to roll out these changes, BIONICLE was already on its last legs and it really amounted to "too little, too late". This time around, BIONICLE will start out with these kinds of ideas, while also drawing on some of the most timeless story and set design elements from BIONICLE's most successful years (2001–2003).

 

 

Yeah, that's why I've always said that the ideas in 2009 were good, but it was generally handled poorly and so the improvements made never stood out, expecially considering it departed so far from the original story. B15 is a huge improvement of Bionicle and takes in plenty of the good elements intended in the earlier days.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

It's interesting to see how some of the changes we're seeing for the new story are changes that were previously tried out in the 2009 storyline. For instance, in 2009, the BIONICLE team...

It seems like these changes are things that even the OLD story team had realized were good ideas. But the last time they tried to roll out these changes, BIONICLE was already on its last legs and it really amounted to "too little, too late". This time around, BIONICLE will start out with these kinds of ideas, while also drawing on some of the most timeless story and set design elements from BIONICLE's most successful years (2001–2003).

That's actually a pretty good point. 2015 might just be a good mix between 2001's aesthetic and story-points with some of the "reintroduced" concepts from 2009.

 

-NotS

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Ah.

Sweet, sweet mortality. at last we see it in the light.

 

good to see bionicle possibly ditching the thousand-year lifespans that gummed up all the importance of ancient events and whatnot.

(there is no way i was gonna believe ackar was alive during the core war.)

maybe now, the mystery will actually be mysterious! :U

[masterchirox580]

So they can reproduce, let's just say I expect an increase in shall I say disturbing images. Beyond that it seems like an interesting new world.

[The Meta Knight]

What I don't get is why explicitly father to son? Why make a society who are meant to be good guys have a political system that is rigidly patriarchal? Why could the masks not be passed down "from generation to generation"?

 

I don't see your point. Patriarchy isn't inherently evil. Plus, I'm sure if a father Protector deemed his son unworthy, he could just as easily select somebody from the tribe who stands out as worthy to him. I doubt it's as rigid as you're making it out to be. And even if it is, that doesn't necessarily make it evil. 

 

 

I'm half expecting maybe one exception to the "father to son" thing among the current protectors- lack of a male heir, the daughter in question showing exceptional leadership skills, etc. But the other half of me thinks they'll all be male because that's the way things tend to work around here.

 

I don't think they'll all be male. But I'm sure a lot of them will be...         :l:       :e:

[Iblis]

• ...changed the elemental affiliation of the green sets from "air" to "jungle".

 

Although possibly the Air bit is also an error; I think it's interesting that there is "unleash the huge Air Elemental Flame Bow’s rapid shooter".

 

_{I suspect that we may see Air showing up in a few places; like here I think it makes sense (just cut 'Flame' out) as shooting something which is hitting harder (because faster) because of 'Elemental Air' as opposed to Elemental Jungle will go down a bit better; but ultimately that Air will be conflated with Flora/Plants to make Jungle.}

_{Also showing up if you count Sand Vortexes as being related to Air; but ultimately; Air seems to be a part of the Jungle Element which I think is awesome :3}

[Munty]

So they can reproduce, let's just say I expect an increase in shall I say disturbing images. Beyond that it seems like an interesting new world.

 

A sad inevitability... To be fair though it would happen anyway. I mean if they're going to do it with Roodaka then noone is safe 

[Aanchir]

 

• ...changed the elemental affiliation of the green sets from "air" to "jungle".

 

Although possibly the Air bit is also an error; I think it's interesting that there is "unleash the huge Air Elemental Flame Bow’s rapid shooter[/size]

 

_{I suspect that we may see Air showing up in a few places; like here I think it makes sense (just cut 'Flame' out) as shooting something which is hitting harder (because faster) because of 'Elemental Air' as opposed to Elemental Jungle will go down a bit better; but ultimately that Air will be conflated with Flora/Plants to make Jungle.}

_{Also showing up if you count Sand Vortexes as being related to Air; but ultimately; Air seems to be a part of the Jungle Element which I think is awesome :3}

 

Yep, I noticed that as well. The Jungle element in the BIONICLE reboot seems to encompass both air and plantlife, hence why Lewa's powers are described as "Communes with plants and the wind". If that's the case, then what the LEGO Group did, essentially, is replace the Indo-European classical element of Air with the Chinese classical element of Wood (which covers both plants and the wind).

 

But the same thing was true to a certain extent in 2009. When characters like Gresh and Vastus were granted elemental powers by Mata Nui, they were granted air powers rather than plantlife powers. And even though this was explained after-the-fact as Mata Nui associating air with the color green, it's more likely that the shift from air to jungle was always meant as mostly a nominal change. This achieved two important things. It allowed the characters' and locations' elemental affiliations in marketing to be more consistent with the sets' appearances. And it granted the element a physical shape that the character designs could reflect (after all, it's much easier to make green armor and weapons clearly resemble leaves or vines than to make them clearly resemble clouds or gusts of wind).

Edited November 28, 2014 by Aanchir

[Zidonaro]

Are they even still biomechanical ? I know they can still be but, do we have an actual solid proof that they are still robots like G1 ?

[believe victims]

I don't see your point. Patriarchy isn't inherently evil. Plus, I'm sure if a father Protector deemed his son unworthy, he could just as easily select somebody from the tribe who stands out as worthy to him. I doubt it's as rigid as you're making it out to be. And even if it is, that doesn't necessarily make it evil. 

 

 

I could be reading this wrong, but I'm pretty sure what you just said was "there is nothing inherently bad about a system than puts men before women".

[Aanchir]

Are they even still biomechanical ? I know they can still be but, do we have an actual solid proof that they are still robots like G1 ?

We have no confirmation of what percentage organic/what percentage mechanical they are, but it's a near-certainty that they're not 100% organic, since they are designed with mechanical pistons and hinges even more obvious than those on most of the Glatorian.

 

It's possible that they're mostly organic with mechanical implants like the Glatorian. It's possible that they're mostly mechanical with organic internal organs like the Matoran. It's even possible that they're 100% mechanical. After all, this is a fantasy story, so self-replicating robots may very well be within the realm of possibility in the BIONICLE 2015 universe.

[Zidonaro]

 

Are they even still biomechanical ? I know they can still be but, do we have an actual solid proof that they are still robots like G1 ?

We have no confirmation of what percentage organic/what percentage mechanical they are, but it's a near-certainty that they're not 100% organic, since they are designed with mechanical pistons and hinges even more obvious than those on most of the Glatorian.

 

It's possible that they're mostly organic with mechanical implants like the Glatorian. It's possible that they're mostly mechanical with organic internal organs like the Matoran. It's even possible that they're 100% mechanical. After all, this is a fantasy story, so self-replicating robots may very well be within the realm of possibility in the BIONICLE 2015 universe.

 

 

Yeah, I believe this to be the case, their heads seem a little bit organic too, like they have mouths and something I think might be a nose.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

 

 

• ...changed the elemental affiliation of the green sets from "air" to "jungle".

 

Although possibly the Air bit is also an error; I think it's interesting that there is "unleash the huge Air Elemental Flame Bow’s rapid shooter[/size]

 

_{I suspect that we may see Air showing up in a few places; like here I think it makes sense (just cut 'Flame' out) as shooting something which is hitting harder (because faster) because of 'Elemental Air' as opposed to Elemental Jungle will go down a bit better; but ultimately that Air will be conflated with Flora/Plants to make Jungle.}

_{Also showing up if you count Sand Vortexes as being related to Air; but ultimately; Air seems to be a part of the Jungle Element which I think is awesome :3}

 

Yep, I noticed that as well. The Jungle element in the BIONICLE reboot seems to encompass both air and plantlife, hence why Lewa's powers are described as "Communes with plants and the wind". If that's the case, then what the LEGO Group did, essentially, is replace the Indo-European classical element of Air with the Chinese classical element of Wood (which covers both plants and the wind).

True, though wasn't it said that they intended to use air as the element but focus-testing proved that jungle was a more successful term among the target audience? In that case it may just be an unchanged previous name (not saying it doesn't work though).

 

-NotS

[Alyska]

 

What I don't get is why explicitly father to son? Why make a society who are meant to be good guys have a political system that is rigidly patriarchal? Why could the masks not be passed down "from generation to generation"?

 

I don't see your point. Patriarchy isn't inherently evil. Plus, I'm sure if a father Protector deemed his son unworthy, he could just as easily select somebody from the tribe who stands out as worthy to him. I doubt it's as rigid as you're making it out to be. And even if it is, that doesn't necessarily make it evil. 

 

"Evil"? Well, no, not exactly, but let's just say that it could come across as problematic if the tribes explicitly never allow female leaders...

[fishers64]

For every male-dominated system, there's always at least one female who tries to break it. That person may be named Gali, but we'll have to see. 

 

Male-dominated systems are realistic. However, if they try to make it so the female characters are passive weaklings who are happy with it and never challenge anything, that's when I may have something to say about it.

[Aanchir]

True, though wasn't it said that they intended to use air as the element but focus-testing proved that jungle was a more successful term among the target audience? In that case it may just be an unchanged previous name (not saying it doesn't work though).

 

-NotS

From what I heard at NYCC, it wasn't about jungle being more popular so much as "green=jungle" making more sense to the target audience than "green=air". Which I think is fair. If I were to pick up the original Lewa set without seeing any prior story information, I certainly would have thought of him as a jungle character rather than an air character, on account of his colors, design, and environment. Even places in East Asia where the "wind is green" trope is common would probably be able to make the "jungle is green" connection a lot more easily.

[The Meta Knight]

 

I don't see your point. Patriarchy isn't inherently evil. Plus, I'm sure if a father Protector deemed his son unworthy, he could just as easily select somebody from the tribe who stands out as worthy to him. I doubt it's as rigid as you're making it out to be. And even if it is, that doesn't necessarily make it evil. 

 

 

I could be reading this wrong, but I'm pretty sure what you just said was "there is nothing inherently bad about a system than puts men before women".

 

 

You're not necessarily getting what I'm saying. As Alyska said, it isn't evil in itself. But let's say if an elder Protector's firstborn daughter shows strong leadership skills and a more keen interest in ruling, while his firstborn son proves to be lazy and has no interest in ruling at all, but the elder Protector chooses the son anyway just for the sake of tradition, then there is a problem. It's not necessarily the the elder Protector's initial decision that's evil, (even if it is just stupid,) it's more what will come of that decision that's evil.

Edited November 29, 2014 by The Meta Knight

[believe victims]

Male-dominated systems are realistic.

 

And isn't that just frightening?

 

also I think this is one case where the line that shirks realisticity at every turn (robotic characters, wonky physics, ridiculously skewed gender ratios) could have done to shirk it once again.

 

 

 

 

I don't see your point. Patriarchy isn't inherently evil. Plus, I'm sure if a father Protector deemed his son unworthy, he could just as easily select somebody from the tribe who stands out as worthy to him. I doubt it's as rigid as you're making it out to be.   And even if it is, that doesn't necessarily make it evil. 

 

 

I could be reading this wrong, but I'm pretty sure what you just said was "there is nothing inherently bad about a system than puts men before women".

 

 

You're not necessarily getting what I'm saying. As Alyska said, it isn't evil in itself. But let's say if an elder Protector's firstborn daughter shows strong leadership skills and a more keen interest in ruling, while his firstborn son proves to be lazy and has no interest in ruing at all, but the elder Protector chooses the son anyway just for the sake of tradition, then there is a problem. It's not necessarily the the elder Protector's initial decision that's evil, (even if it is just stupid,) it's more what will come of that decision that's evil.

 

 

I'd say there's definitely a problem with a tradition that would encourage the decision to put someone shiftless and lazy in power over someone far more qualified simply on the basis of gender. I can't say that I understand the argument that there is no issue whatsoever with allowing gender to be the sole deciding factor of worthiness to lead, considering that in and of itself is based in the idea that one is better than the other.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Wally