Toa Mangai of the Green's Kanohi Poll

[Boidoh]

Greg NEVER canonizes in bulk. I asked the conservation status for the Fikou, he said they were fairly common. Then I gave a big list, and he didn't want to answer.

[Irrie]

Greg NEVER canonizes in bulk. I asked the conservation status for the Fikou, he said they were fairly common. Then I gave a big list, and he didn't want to answer.

Does this mean that we're going to have a long, possibly multi-month series of polls to decide the Toas' Kanohi? 

[Boidoh]

Or perhaps it will remain one of BIONICLE's many mysteries.

[Irrie]

That, or it will be clarified by someone else in a few years from now. 

Edited November 30, 2014 by The Irrational Rock

[Boidoh]

If Greg still answers questions on LMB.

 

I find it surprising that more people agree on which Kanohi the Toa of the Green should use than which element the final Toa Mangai should be.

[Dorek]

The reason I picked Rahi Control is specifically because it wouldn't have worked, but that's why they brought him anyway, because they hoped it would. The Toa Hagah, who are present for the battle between Tahtorak and the Kanohi Dragon are unable to effectively stop both beats without a lot of teamwork, and do so apparently without the use of the Mask of Rahi Control, which was in their possession, worn by Kualus. Kanohi have limits; clearly the largest Rahi can't fully be affected, or else their battle would have been much shorter. The same principle could easily apply to the Toa Mangai.

 

It's likely Greg has forgotten these particular details, so I would suggest reminding him and seeing if Rahi Control is still a viable option. (Then probably redoing this poll because it seemed like a lot of stuff is being done on the fly, here.)

Edited November 30, 2014 by Dorek

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Too bad, no Rahi Control.

See, I told you. You're welcome...

 

#MaskofHealing

[bonesiii]

Dorek just stole my thunder -- the reasoning that Rahi Control would make the battle too short is problematic, because this team was assembled specifically to fight the Kanohi Dragon (and the DH that unleashed it). Surely they would seek out Toa who wore this mask. I think the Rahi's immense size, or some mental feature of how the Makuta made this one, would make more sense as the mask not working on it. I feel like this should have been pointed out before Greg ruled it out. (And it could still be used in the battle by controlling other Rahi to send against it.)

 

On the other hand, we don't know what that mask is shaped like, and I prefer to pick powers we know shapes for. I went with Conjuring, because I've been wanting to see a Toa with that (and presumably having memorized several proper 'spells' to avoid the mental backlash for errors, perhaps having a book of them). Healing is another good choice but shape also unknown. (Although I kinda headcanon my own Paracosmos Mask of Healing for that. )

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Or maybe it's rare to see Toa of a Mask of Rahi Control but that just a guess 

Also maybe those other Ice, earth and stone Toa may have a Mask of Conjuring, maybe one of the ice Toa. Actually I hope we can have poll for the other 6 members of the Toa Mangai.

[Master Inika]

I voted for the Mask of Healing. Personal theory: the Brotherhood of Makuta limited the number of Masks of Rahi Control to make their Rahi armies more formidable.

[unknown456]

Along the lines of what ShadowWolfHount said, there are six other Toa on this team, so just because this Toa doesn't have the Mask of Rahi Control doesn't mean that any of the others don't, we just haven't seen what they wear yet.

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Well we do know that none of the other six Toa have the Mask of Rahi Control, I was mainly talking about the Mask of Conjuring.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

     As much as I'd like a Mask of Healing, I think it's going to lose to the Kanohi No-Masks-From-This-Selection.  Everyone voted for that one multiple times.

 

     I agree with the medic concept - note also that it is said the Toa of The Green resided in Ga-Metru later, and Ga-Matoran are the other type of Matoran mentioned as good healers. As a renowned medic, he'd fit right in. If we vote on Kanohi for the other Toa, I'm giving Rahi Control to Earth - think how useful that would be in the Archives.

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

I have just made something, just for the Mask of Healing

#MaskOfHealing

[Dorek]

Along the lines of what ShadowWolfHount said, there are six other Toa on this team, so just because this Toa doesn't have the Mask of Rahi Control doesn't mean that any of the others don't, we just haven't seen what they wear yet.

Doesn't mean we still shouldn't have the option to choose it for this Toa; the fact that my vote was completely invalidated because this poll was too premature and not fully thought through isn't exactly fair.

[Boidoh]

I don't remove options from the poll unless it is contradicted by canon or if Greg says no.

 

https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/11758554/highlight/true#M259817

 

Greg answered and said none of the Mangai had the mask.

[Dorek]

A. We've already established that Greg can be prone to forgetting certain things; presenting all of the facts (which should have been done before the poll was made) is the best way to help him reach an accurate assessment. B. Now that some options have been removed (again, something that could have been prevented), including one I voted for, I can't actually vote in this poll anymore, nor can others who have done the same thing.

 

Granted, the latter is more a BZP software thing, but the point remains; it would have done better to ask these sorts of questions and establish guidelines beforehand, rather than winging it as it goes along.

[Irrie]

Yeah, the poll should probably be reset since the people who voted for rahi control can't vote for another one. 

[bonesiii]

If Boidoh wants to start over, I'll close this one and we can do that. The results of this can always be somewhat factored if we think a lot of people won't re-vote.

 

But those were some good points up there about Makuta possibly making sure few if any Toa have Rahi Control... and maybe few Toa want it anyways (it is associated with Makuta, after all; they might deem it close enough to the immoral masks for that reason?).

[Dorek]

I think it'd be a bit silly to classify it as immoral just like that, but the relationship of Makuta powers and Kanohi powers is always an interesting one. They had their own power of Rahi Control, but how would they feel about other people being able to interfere with their creations like that? Chirox and Mutran probably would have something to say, but I doubt other Makuta would really care.

[Irrie]

I'm probably forgetting something here, but didn't this take place before The Brotherhood's treason? Did Toa start classifying Makuta-related masks as immoral before they knew of their rebellion? If so, I think that that point needs to be taken up to Greg, because something doesn't seem right about that. 

[hawkeye90]

I'm thinking the mask of biomechanics, just for the ironic factor, also if you took him (quite literally) out of his element, he would still have it covered. And it is just cool to think of the technology of Metru-Nui itself attacking the dragon. But I do also like the mask of healing for a Toa of Plantlife.

Edited December 1, 2014 by hawkeye90

[Boidoh]

How about this. The 6 people who voted for Mask of Rahi Control can just manually say their votes and I'll add it to the first post, then when enough people have voted, I just add the sum.

[Master Inika]

I didn't mean the Mask of Rahi Control would be considered immoral; I meant the Brotherhood would just force mask makers to not create that mask.

 

It would make sense for Kualus to have one, also, since he was a Toa Hagah.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Master Inika

[Dorek]

How about this. The 6 people who voted for Mask of Rahi Control can just manually say their votes and I'll add it to the first post, then when enough people have voted, I just add the sum.

Have we officially ruled out Mask of Rahi Control? Since there's already an example of a nigh-identical scenario, I think it should be still be presented as a choice.

 

I'm probably forgetting something here, but didn't this take place before The Brotherhood's treason? Did Toa start classifying Makuta-related masks as immoral before they knew of their rebellion? If so, I think that that point needs to be taken up to Greg, because something doesn't seem right about that.

Fair point; while the Brotherhood could have killed off people with the mask in their run-up to the Great Cataclysm (given the timespan, I would say it's close enough to that...), they wouldn't have necessarily had any reason to do so.

[Shadow Destroyer]

Dorek just stole my thunder -- the reasoning that Rahi Control would make the battle too short is problematic, because this team was assembled specifically to fight the Kanohi Dragon (and the DH that unleashed it). Surely they would seek out Toa who wore this mask. I think the Rahi's immense size, or some mental feature of how the Makuta made this one, would make more sense as the mask not working on it. I feel like this should have been pointed out before Greg ruled it out. (And it could still be used in the battle by controlling other Rahi to send against it.)

 

Couldn't one of the other Toa Mangai have been wearing it? One of the other team members whose mask is still unknown?

 

Edit: I finally ended up voting for the Mask of Healing. I really like the idea of this Toa member being the medic for the group, and I think the Mask of Rahi control would be a better fit for one of the other unnamed Toa on the team.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Shadow Destroyer

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I don't know, I kind of picture him wearing a Kiril for some reason.

 

-NotS

[Boidoh]

 

How about this. The 6 people who voted for Mask of Rahi Control can just manually say their votes and I'll add it to the first post, then when enough people have voted, I just add the sum.

Have we officially ruled out Mask of Rahi Control? Since there's already an example of a nigh-identical scenario, I think it should be still be presented as a choice.

 

I'm probably forgetting something here, but didn't this take place before The Brotherhood's treason? Did Toa start classifying Makuta-related masks as immoral before they knew of their rebellion? If so, I think that that point needs to be taken up to Greg, because something doesn't seem right about that.

Fair point; while the Brotherhood could have killed off people with the mask in their run-up to the Great Cataclysm (given the timespan, I would say it's close enough to that...), they wouldn't have necessarily had any reason to do so.

 

 

Until someone else convinces Greg to retract his statement, it still isn't applicable.

[bonesiii]

Good point that the Brotherhood as immoral wasn't widely known at the time. Okay, that's out. That leaves either bad luck (nobody who happened to come happened to have it), it wouldn't apply to this Rahi (admittedly unlikely), or the Brotherhood secretly getting rid of users of it and/or their masks. Last point would seem best, but if Greg sees that as a stretch, I guess bad luck is reasonable enough. Still seems weird that the problem is a Rahi and Lhikan doesn't get a Toa with that mask.

 

Aaaaactually... how early do we have confirmation that that power existed as a mix-able mask? That would be another option I suppose -- maybe it was a recent mix? Kualus owned it as a Toa Hagah. But was the way to mix it known? If it was an original, maybe he was the only known Toa to have it... or that others weren't available, and nobody knew how to mix another. Maybe they still don't for all I know. I don't see anything on the BS01 page about it.

 

Couldn't one of the other Toa Mangai have been wearing it? One of the other team members whose mask is still unknown?

Greg ruled it out for any team member. Why would his reasoning only apply to this Toa and not others who were there? Doesn't make sense.

Edited December 1, 2014 by bonesiii

[Boidoh]

He stated that he didn't think that any of them would have it.

[Dorek]

For the people voting Healing, I think it might be good to note that Bo-Matoran are already established as healers so the mask would be redundant to a degree. But we've seen those kinds of examples before (Lewa with the Miru, for instance =P) so it's not completely ludicrous. Just something to consider.

 

Until someone else convinces Greg to retract his statement, it still isn't applicable.

Shouldn't that be you? =P

 

Good point that the Brotherhood as immoral wasn't widely known at the time. Okay, that's out. That leaves either bad luck (nobody who happened to come happened to have it), it wouldn't apply to this Rahi (admittedly unlikely), or the Brotherhood secretly getting rid of users of it and/or their masks. Last point would seem best, but if Greg sees that as a stretch, I guess bad luck is reasonable enough. Still seems weird that the problem is a Rahi and Lhikan doesn't get a Toa with that mask.

 

Aaaaactually... how early do we have confirmation that that power existed as a mix-able mask? That would be another option I suppose -- maybe it was a recent mix? Kualus owned it as a Toa Hagah. But was the way to mix it known? If it was an original, maybe he was the only known Toa to have it... or that others weren't available, and nobody knew how to mix another. Maybe they still don't for all I know. I don't see anything on the BS01 page about it.

Define "mixable" =P. We don't know the combination yet, which could just mean that no Kanoka combination for it exists at all (is it mathematically possible to create all masks with Kanoka permutations, mathematically speaking, anyway?), but that obviously doesn't mean it can't be made. So it would make more sense to seek out somebody who had it already, in that case. Some Hagah are given masks honoring past heroes, so that's a potential set of later users right there (unless this IS the past hero dun dun dunnnnn!), so I wouldn't call it "rare", but it's not "common".

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Would a Komau work, or would that be as OP as the Mask Of Rahi Control?

[Master Inika]

For the people voting Healing, I think it might be good to note that Bo-Matoran are already established as healers so the mask would be redundant to a degree. But we've seen those kinds of examples before (Lewa with the Miru, for instance =P) so it's not completely ludicrous. Just something to consider.

Bo-Matoran have a better understanding of how to heal others, but no actual innate healing abilities. The Mask of Healing only works if the user has a basic knowledge of what needs healing, so the two actually complement each other: the mask allows a Bo-Toa to heal any of the problems he knows of without having to gather materials.

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Would a Komau work, or would that be as OP as the Mask Of Rahi Control?

Well the Komau is useless against robots and some types of Rahi. I guessing that the Kanohi Dragon is one of the type of Rahi.

[WOLKsite]

Well, seems like it is going to be the first known being to were a Mask of Healing. (Dume had a Kiril, Mask of Regeneration)

I like it, but I voted for Calix, I like agility.

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

Would a Komau work, or would that be as OP as the Mask Of Rahi Control?

I think it was never specifically stated by Greg but my guess is that the Komau works only on sentient minds capable of advanced thoughts like matoran and toa.

[Makuta_of_Oz]

 

Would a Komau work, or would that be as OP as the Mask Of Rahi Control?

 

I think it was never specifically stated by Greg but my guess is that the Komau works only on sentient minds capable of advanced thoughts like matoran and toa.

Doubt it. A noble Komau can control a Nui-Kopen. An insect.

[Irrie]

 

 

Would a Komau work, or would that be as OP as the Mask Of Rahi Control?

I think it was never specifically stated by Greg but my guess is that the Komau works only on sentient minds capable of advanced thoughts like matoran and toa.

Doubt it. A noble Komau can control a Nui-Kopen. An insect.

 

Remember, not all of the scenes from MNOG are canon (i.e. almost the entire Mata Nui population of Ga-Matoran fitting into one hut). 

[bonesiii]

Would a Komau work, or would that be as OP as the Mask Of Rahi Control?

I think it was never specifically stated by Greg but my guess is that the Komau works only on sentient minds capable of advanced thoughts like matoran and toa.

It needs a mind, but many Rahi do have minds, and that includes the Kanohi Dragon. Quote from the Komau page:

 

Because the mask only works on beings with minds, it is useless against robots and some types of Rahi.

 

 

Remember, not all of the scenes from MNOG are canon

But they are canon unless contradicted by other canon, and nothing else contradicts that scene. There was also a similar scene in one of the books (Voyage of Fear methinks) where Toa Onewa uses it on a Rahi, and if badmem serves, it only fails because that particular one was really dumb. But he expected it to work on Rahi.

[Irrie]

There was also a similar scene in one of the books (Voyage of Fear methinks) where Toa Onewa uses it on a Rahi, and if badmem serves, it only fails because that particular one was really dumb. But he expected it to work on Rahi.

Did he use it before on any Rahi, or was he just taking a guess that it could work?

 

Also, a wee bit off topic, but was it canon or not that the Toa collected Noble Masks? I've heard so many contradicting opinions on that subject.