What's up w/ the rampant canonization?

[Quasar]

I was wondering what's up with this weird trend I've seen recently where people keep asking Greg Farshtey to canonize little details from the old story (the Toa Mangai of the Green's mask power, for instance, which despite my following the story from 2001-10 didn't actually mean anything to me until I looked it up). I mean, I like these little bits of trivia as much as the next guy, but it seems like it's sort of excessive to the point of being... well, pointless I guess.

 

Since this is the example I have in my mind: why do we need to know that the Toa Mangai of the Green has a certain mask power? Why do we need to know there was a Toa Mangai of the Green in the first place?  Shouldn't these bits be, I dunno, left up to fanon/headcanons or whatever? I'm not asking, like, aggressively or anything (I pretty much ignore whatever happened after Teridax got killed anyway), but it seems odd that we have a bunch of these little details that people have gone out of their way to get canonized after the story ended. The existence of a "Toa Cordak" team and that massive list of Kanohi that never showed up in canon (Mask of Aging, etc.) on BS01 spring to mind also. Why have this made official four years later?

 

I'm not saying it's bad necessarily, it's just... odd. These seem like bits of headcanon that would be neat details in someone's own story, but again I ask, why do they have to be, like, GregF certified or something?

[Pomegranate]

This has been going on for many, many years, basically ever since Greg started directly interacting with the fan community on a regular basis- so, more or less, for a good 10 years straight, with a little break in the middle for his family. The fans like to fill in every little gap, and at this point it's just to have something new and keep the story alive, I guess. It's really not a new trend, and it's never really been a particularly popular one with everyone. I personally don't mind, 'cause a lot of this stuff they canonize is so obscure you wouldn't know or care about it unless you actually went looking to find out about it, and I'm mostly just concerned over how poor Greg has been putting up with this for so long. He's really a blessing for the fandom, being as kind and patient as he is.

Your point comes up basically every time this happens; back in the day, at least it was fans trying to fill in the blanks and make sense of stuff the main media left out, figuring out the story and trying to guess what'll happen next and what's possible for their fanfictions and stuff, so it was never questioned nearly as much. It helped that there were a few official contests to write and design stuff to become canon when the story was kicking.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Dorek]

I like to think this topic I made a while back has a lot of good information regarding the issue; pros, cons, how a lot of people feel, possible solutions, etc. The long and the short of it is that people will continue to do it regardless, and Greg expressly doesn't mind (not that he should, necessarily, but that invariably gets taken advantage of).

 

My problem, and the problem I've always had ever since this became a thing, is that it often becomes a "for glory" activity, rather than serving any meaningful purpose. People have, and will continue to, make these suggestions and get these canonizations solely because they want to make their mark. (I've been contemplating removing some instances of people's names on BS01, because if I'm being blunt, a true fan wouldn't really care whether or not their name isn't on a list somewhere.) But there's also other instances of legitimate worldbuilding or story contextualizing that results; one of the earliest examples of direct fan-canonizing on record is apparently Aanchir inquiring into the combat staves the Toa Hordika use in the playsets, which then became simply a part of the universe.

 

There's plenty of stuff that has been interesting or helpful that has been added, and there's plenty of stuff that's bizarre, out there, or just plain dumb that's been added. Expressing displeasure at it often gets one labeled as a cynic or a gen1er, it seems, which is a shame. As I'm sure I've mentioned before, the best thing to do is be smart about it; be thoughtful, deliberate, and respectful when these types of matters come up. That applies to both sides, too; plenty of examples are a result of bandwagoning, which is essentially the opposite of all of those attitudes I just mentioned. The best way we can respect the story and each other as fans is always to think as critically as possible.

[bonesiii]

Compared to when? When Greg wasn't in contact with fans for the most part, obviously there was a lot less. And now that Gen 2 has been announced, fan activity has gone up and that's undoubtedly brought attention to the new way to talk to Greg about Gen 1. But it really hasn't been that much lately. A few little things here and there. Some probably a bit over the line, but most have been reasonable.

 

BTW, the Toa Mangai aren't a good example as there's been a LOT of interest in filling out the team for many years. It's not like this example is sudden or anything!

 

 

Edit: And while I agree about Toa Cordak, the Mask of Aging DID show up in canon art, which is why we felt it made sense to identify its power. (And how is that a good example? That's ancient by now. Very aged lol.)

Edited December 5, 2014 by bonesiii

[Mjolnitor]

the Mask of Aging DID show up in canon art, which is why we felt it made sense to identify its power.

And that's why we must have a power for every scribble supposed to be a mask?

Edited December 5, 2014 by Mjolnitor

[bonesiii]

No, several of the ones that actually looked more like scribbles were left unused.

 

But why the antagonism to knowing the powers of masks that were shown? This is strange. Bionicle is a worldbuilding story and that's normally what they do. In 2001 every mask that was shown was explained. We felt it made sense to be consistent with that for the clearer Sayger masks and the Av-Matoran masks. And Greg agreed. As we all know, in hindsight, some wanted an opportunity to help select the powers themselves and that was part of what inspired the Story Squad and later approaches to involving more input (but this isn't support for no canonization at all!).

 

And again, if you're not curious what those powers are, due to your personal tastes, then you can just ignore them (as you could ignore the powers of the 2001 masks like the Vahi in Comic 3 -- unused until 2003, Dume's mask, etc.). And same for tons of other details established in the Atlas, the Encyclopedia, etc. It makes no sense to apply this sort of thing to fan involvement to bring some of the areas that were missed up to that level to keep it consistent.

 

Why try to impose that taste impractically on those who are interested? Knowing the powers enables everybody to be happy (other than whether they happen to like the powers or not, but we chose powers closely tied with established and popular Bionicle concepts ) -- those interested satisfy curiosity, those not can still ignore them. The other way around doesn't get that. Just like anything in worldbuilding -- doesn't mean EVERYTHING in a world gets established, but the prominent things generally are.

 

(Not, as I said, that there can't be things that cross a line; like Toa Cordak as most agree.)

[Mjolnitor]

Bionicle is a worldbuilding story and that's normally what they do.

More like "a story of cramping unnecessary facts into the setting 'til it collapses".

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

BTW, the Toa Mangai aren't a good example as there's been a LOT of interest in filling out the team for many years. It's not like this example is sudden or anything!

 

on the contrary, i can't think of anything less interesting in worldbuilding than how many toa of ice Lhikan managed to rope up to join him.

[Archon~]

The Toa of Ice thing has been known for a while, And I don't remember anyone saying anything against ot other than "woah what about the rest of them" when it was first canonized.

 

To be fair some stuff is ridicilous, like the Fikou Nui, but others like establishing unknown masks that have art and giving preexisting names to the many unnamed characters is more or less harmless.

 

It's simply a way to wrap up loose ends to a wonderful story and give it closure, while making sure it doesn't harm preestablished facts. Of the rescent ones, the only thing that irks me to no end is the fact that the Su Toa have a higher heat resistance than Ta Toa. I think that's just... "Disrespectful" to the original story. The Toa Lhikan thing is ridicilous as well, and I believe canonization of stupid facts and contorling rampant fans can be regulated by a checks-n-balances system that we implement here on the S&T forums.

 

Now some people might say "oh but this is driving away from the mysticism of 2001!" Well yes, the story was never meant to be on that island forever. It's always been meant to go into the robot with weird characters, species and other junk.

 

And Mjol, I'm sorry but how does adding names and putting closure to preestablisged characters help collapse the story..? Or were you reffering to something else?

 

To add, I'll restate Bonesiii's question:

Where is this antagonism coming from? Are you truley annoyed with further canonization, or are you just annoyed stuff that you don't like is getting pushed forward?

[bonesiii]

on the contrary, i can't think of anything less interesting

This is not contrary; that would be the fallacy of arguing from your own personal taste to the conclusion that everybody shares that taste. It is always the case that some will be uninterested in things in entertainment (or at least almost always); that's how taste works. People are interested in the Toa Mangai because they have three prominent members in the storyline and we're accustomed to knowing entire teams when their members have such important and popular featuring.

 

More like "a story of cramping unnecessary facts into the setting 'til it collapses".

Two problems here:

 

1) "Need fallacy" -- nothing in fiction is needed. But to have a good worldbuilding story, you do actually "need" in the "people want this" sense to establish many details. And if this is in reference to the masks, out of the thousands of possible mask powers, we had a tiny percentage, and it gets tiring (and implausible) always giving characters the same powers that happen to be worn by the heroes in the main spotlight.

 

2) Remember not to apply the rules for a non-worldbuilding story to a worldbuilding story; my guess is that that's where some are getting confused (as you often see them use arguments that fit this bill, like "if it isn't in main plot, don't decide it" logic. Worldbuilding stories use that to an extent, but also build up a "cloud" of loosely related facts to give a better sense of the world, within reason. Most canonizations, like the worldbuilding that came only from LEGO, have been consistent with this in a reasonable way. Establishing the powers of featured masks especially makes sense. And actually, the problem with "Toa Cordak" was not so much that we got a name anyways -- teams usually do -- it was what the name was.).

 

But there is a gray area in where you draw the line. Tastes may vary on this; keep that in mind. Frankly most arguments that portray where the line is as indisputable seem completely groundless. They seem more like one person's personal tastes being assumed to be close to universal (or a few people, etc.). And there's more to it but that should suffice for now.

[fishers64]

Rampant? It's taking over the S&T forum! We can't have a conversation about anything else in here because the canonization-happy people just won't stop!

 

Besides, this whole argument is in violation of the Inherent Asynchronous Fun Principle. If someone is having fun doing a particular (non-destructive, moral) thing, and it isn't fun for you, do you tell them that they aren't allowed to do that thing? Do you tell your dad that he can't have fun playing golf because you don't like it? Do you tell your little sister that she can't play with her stuffed animals? (No, you go do your own kind of fun somewhere else. Yay!)

 

Then why would you do it on BZPower? Obviously people are getting kicks out of canonizing this stuff (i.e. fun), otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Those people may or may not be named Boidoh, but that's neither here nor there. Point being, people are allowed to have fun doing things around here, including canonization. Otherwise, this website wouldn't even exist.  

[Dorek]

Personally I don't remember much in the way of people asking about the rest of the Toa Mangai thing; if anything, it was the result of some overactive canonization from back in the day (first the actual naming, which was... dubious, and then the attempted grandfathering in of Nihu-Motara, which was thankfully overruled). Chicken and egg.

 

I'd say another key difference between then and now is that ideas actually had a chance of being referenced in the story, or at least acknowledged in some way; however silly Tridax and Nektann might be as retroactively canonized names, they are now established characters, which is something that won't necessarily happen going forward here. Not that it particularly matters anymore, but for people who like their story bible to be in stone (assuming BS01 doesn't count :3), this runs counter to that.

 

 

The Toa Lhikan thing is ridicilous as well, and I believe canonization of stupid facts and contorling rampant fans can be regulated by a checks-n-balances system that we implement here on the S&T forums.

Well, the thing is, it can't really; back in the day, when Greg was on the forum, it was a lot easier to establish checks and balances because it was a community thing. Now that he has shifted over to LMB, which has a very different audience and makeup than BZP does, it's much more of a frontier.

 

Rampant? It's taking over the S&T forum! We can't have a conversation about anything else in here because the canonization-happy people just won't stop!

 

Besides, this whole argument is in violation of the Inherent Asynchronous Fun Principle. If someone is having fun doing a particular (non-destructive, moral) thing, and it isn't fun for you, do you tell them that they aren't allowed to do that thing? Do you tell your dad that he can't have fun playing golf because you don't like it? Do you tell your little sister that she can't play with her stuffed animals? (No, you go do your own kind of fun somewhere else. Yay!)

 

Then why would you do it on BZPower? Obviously people are getting kicks out of canonizing this stuff (i.e. fun), otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Those people may or may not be named Boidoh, but that's neither here nor there. Point being, people are allowed to have fun doing things around here, including canonization. Otherwise, this website wouldn't even exist.

Generally speaking, yes, but you have to remember that we're still a community; everybody doing their own thing regardless of the opinions of others is straight anarchy. That respect is a two-way street. Edited December 5, 2014 by Dorek

[Archon~]

Yes, I do realize that most of the audience doesn't coalign with people on BZP, but have you seen the topic? Half of it is people just asking random questions that have nothing to do with canonization more or less. Heck, I've noticed a good number of them are for Chima and Ninjago.

 

So far everything that has been canonized on LMB was an idea that originated on BZP. This is why I think checks-n-balances could be at least somewhat useful.

 

For example, as far as I remember, quite a few people were against Su-Matoran having stronger heat resistence, and people protested this quite a bit after it was canonized and even pestered Greg about it. This could be possibly said for Turaga Lhikan's form, as well as Toa Cordak (i didn't mind). In these instances, a check-n-balance system would have worked just fine, and in order to prevent future potential canonizations that might be proven ridicilous, I think that a pinned topic should be dedicated to acting as a filter for canonization ideas.

 

EDIT: looks like we have an S&T Civil War on our hands.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Archon~

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

on the contrary, i can't think of anything less interesting

This is not contrary; that would be the fallacy of arguing from your own personal taste to the conclusion that everybody shares that taste. It is always the case that some will be uninterested in things in entertainment (or at least almost always); that's how taste works. People are interested in the Toa Mangai because they have three prominent members in the storyline and we're accustomed to knowing entire teams when their members have such important and popular featuring.

 

I was jsut using that as an example, what i meant was: it doesn't do much of actual worldbuilding, it just gives our cast more blank-faced toa (it already has too many!) with no actual character description.

 

a better use of worldbuilding questions for greg would be, say "what kind of rahi live on voya nui? what is the voya nui landscape like?" stuff that wasn't detailed enough when 2006 was up and running, but is really important to know anyway.

 

meanwhile, we instead have been getting: "sayger drew another mask without checking the actual pool of canon kanohi, is it supposed to look like that? what does it do?"

 

y'know?

[Archon~]

I do agree with that, but I feel like this falls in the scope of things where Greg would just kind of shrug and say something along the lines of "that was 9 years ago, i don't quite remember", which is reasonable, after all. What I'm trying to say Lalonde is that the question you proposed is too general. I'm sure if you asked about specific Rahi he would give it a thought and say "yes" or "no" if it made sense, or leave it as unidentified if he didn't feel particularly strong about either side.

And honestly, you can just go ahead and make an LMD Account and ask him something like that, just make sure you use more-or-less specific wording and check with BS01 (if applicable).

Also, I'd like to add that Voya Nui was visualized very well by the art, and video game we got.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I do agree with that, but I feel like this falls in the scope of things where Greg would just kind of shrug and say something along the lines of "that was 9 years ago, i don't quite remember", which is reasonable, after all. What I'm trying to say Lalonde is that the question you proposed is too general. I'm sure if you asked about specific Rahi he would give it a thought and say "yes" or "no" if it made sense, or leave it as unidentified if he didn't feel particularly strong about either side.

And honestly, you can just go ahead and make an LMD Account and ask him something like that, just make sure you use more-or-less specific wording and check with BS01 (if applicable).

Also, I'd like to add that Voya Nui was visualized very well by the art, and video game we got.

 

i dunno, voya nui never got a canon say on what it looked like, Sayger shows it dark and barren, Piraka animations say kinda lush but very rocky, and VNOG says very lush but also icy and desert and basically just a funny shaped Mata Nui.

 

(i'm also pretty sure the fact greg only answers yes/no questions is a sign we should probably stop relying on him for solid facts. )

[Archon~]

It's not like he doesn't give things thought, he does have other works to focus on, and frankly I'm amazed at the volume of questions he does address on LMB.

Also, stop relying on the guy who wrote the story? Ask yourself if that makes sense in any other fiction story.

 

And the rule usually yields to the comics portraying what is the most accurate, so I would go with that. It's overall geography is shown on the map itself, however if the atmosphere is described as dark and gloomy, then that's what it is: dark and gloomy.

[Rider Of Spiders]

I stumbled upon this canonization much later than the others. Reading Farshtey Feed has been pretty entertaining, and I really don't see a problem here. It's nice for Greg to wrap G1 up, especially when G2 is closing in and he'll most likely move on to other things then.

 

I admire how he has been able to keep it running for four years after the sets stopped. That's some dedication. For example, the Toa Mangai of Plantlife is a nice addition to the main universe as the only other Bo-Toa was in an alternate universe, on which Greg does not shed light.

[believe victims]

I find the view of "if people have fun canonizing things, why stop them?" completely mind-boggling. This isn't some fanfiction festival where everyone throws their ideas into the ring, this is a complete story that people wrote and told from start to finish. When Tolkien finished Lord of the Rings, did people harass him to give names and lifestyles to every last elf? Did they force him to organize a comprehensive profile of what powers hobbits do and do not have? And if people had done those things, would you honestly say it's irrational to dislike this cramming of unnecessary details into a universe that's told its story?

 

It's different when Tolkien expanded on the universe with his other stories, because that was telling new stories in the universe, where these details mattered. This is saying "Yeah, this story is over and done with, but I don't think there's quite enough unnecessary detail forced into every orifice".

 

If you find canonizing worthless things "fun", I think it's time you reevaluate why you're doing it.

[fishers64]

 

The Toa Lhikan thing is ridicilous as well, and I believe canonization of stupid facts and contorling rampant fans can be regulated by a checks-n-balances system that we implement here on the S&T forums.

Well, the thing is, it can't really; back in the day, when Greg was on the forum, it was a lot easier to establish checks and balances because it was a community thing. Now that he has shifted over to LMB, which has a very different audience and makeup than BZP does, it's much more of a frontier.

 

Much as we might long for the Bionicle Story Squad of previous days, we can't presume to control what people do on other websites. That's still not happening.

 

Rampant? It's taking over the S&T forum! We can't have a conversation about anything else in here because the canonization-happy people just won't stop!

 

Besides, this whole argument is in violation of the Inherent Asynchronous Fun Principle. If someone is having fun doing a particular (non-destructive, moral) thing, and it isn't fun for you, do you tell them that they aren't allowed to do that thing? Do you tell your dad that he can't have fun playing golf because you don't like it? Do you tell your little sister that she can't play with her stuffed animals? (No, you go do your own kind of fun somewhere else. Yay!)

 

Then why would you do it on BZPower? Obviously people are getting kicks out of canonizing this stuff (i.e. fun), otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Those people may or may not be named Boidoh, but that's neither here nor there. Point being, people are allowed to have fun doing things around here, including canonization. Otherwise, this website wouldn't even exist.

Generally speaking, yes, but you have to remember that we're still a community; everybody doing their own thing regardless of the opinions of others is straight anarchy. That respect is a two-way street.

Yes, but that has to do with things applicable to logic. This is still a very much preference-based conflict. One side prefers that canon have less established facts and that it be more open to interpretation. The other side prefers that there be a bunch of canonized facts because they like canonizing things for fun.  

 

Both sides have logic base behind their preferences, to be sure. The side preferring less established facts doesn't want Bionicle to become a mess of contradictory facts that other people don't like - a fear of Bionicle becoming something they don't like via these. Canonizations impinging on the fun of Bionicle, in other words, for more people. The other side thinks these canonizations are fun and they feed imagination for fanfic tales. Throw all the preference stuff out, and it becomes two thoughts.

 

1: The possibility that Bionicle could lose basic logical coherence and not longer be pleasing to the people who like it. 

 

2: Having more canon facts simulates the imagination of more people. 

 

Which leads to this thought...

 

3: Having more canon facts impinges on the imagination of those who don't like them and wish to ignore them. 

 

3 and 2 are equally valid possibilities. But they are going to happen regardless of how many canon facts you have. Even if you had a ridiculously low number of canon facts, 3 can still happen. So neither would apply - with any given person and any given canon fact, you have a 50/50 chance of encountering 2 or 3. Someone could see the Mangai of the Green thing and feel inspired to write a fanfic about the Toa Mangai, and then someone else could see the very same thing and get annoyed because they now have to work a Toa of the Green into their Mangai story. It's useless in making a decision. Even if the entire community of BZPower agrees on a certain canon fact, the entire community of this place could change so that we have a bunch of whiners who hate that fact with a deadly passion. Still the same 50/50 odds. 

 

Then we have the possibility of canonizing something that makes everyone unhappy or harms the basic logic of the story thanks to forgetcons. (1) Everyone here I think agrees that is bad. Nobody on BZP or the LMB really wants to wreck the Bionicle story. And neither does Greg, really. Thus, the odds of that happening are relatively low. If someone does make a mistake, it can be ignored (if it blatantly contradicts something official) or reexplained to Greg and fixed.

 

EDIT: Which is just a very long way of saying that people's preferences are making a very big deal of a very low possibility. 

 

And there is the desire for closure, which is also a valid preference. Which Wally just expressed.

 

So far everything that has been canonized on LMB was an idea that originated on BZP. This is why I think checks-n-balances could be at least somewhat useful.

Fikou Nui didn't originate here to my knowledge. Nor did Toa Cordak. BZP members were involved in both of those cases, but it was their own decision, acting independently of us. In the case of Toa Cordak, Bs01 members were involved, but that doesn't imply Bs01's endorsement either.

Edited December 5, 2014 by fishers64

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

It's not like he doesn't give things thought, he does have other works to focus on, and frankly I'm amazed at the volume of questions he does address on LMB.

Also, stop relying on the guy who wrote the story? Ask yourself if that makes sense in any other fiction story.

 

if he's gonna have the general functionality of a Magic 8 Ball? yes.

[Archon~]

@Wally: Honestly, I think it's unfair that you're comparing Tolkien's day and age to today. Yeah he wasn't asked questions due to several reasons many which are attributed to lack of the Internet and general fan-author relations. I think if you give at least a miniscule amount of thought to how your comparison of 20th century and 21st century ability for fans and authors to interact doesn't coalign, you'll see that what you're saying doesn't really make sense. I'm sure if Tolkien were alive and were to have a forum where fans could ask questions, or add suggestions to the story, people would lose it.

 

@Fishers: I meant more along the lines that the people who had these ideas are a part of this community, ands since they are, that's why I believe BZP could make an effort to do checks and balances.

 

@Lalonde: I honestly feel like you're completely ignoring the fact that he does give these things careful thought and explains, most of the time, why stuff would apply or not when it pertains to canon. Does he do the 8-ball when the questions asked are already pre-established? Of course! I don't expect a grown man with a job and kid to explain every detail of every questions, especially when it's been asked a few pages back on LMB.

[Boidoh]

Oh look at the can of worms I opened.

 

"Rampant canonization" is never gonna stop until the day Greg stops answering questions on LMB.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Oh look at the can of worms I opened.

 

"Rampant canonization" is never gonna stop until the day Greg stops answering questions on LMB.

 

ah, there it is:

 

the problem isn't the questions, but the loaded way they're said.

 

for instance "what is the final toa mangai's mask?" would (properly) give greg the ability to name any Bionicle mask.

 

but if i approached him with "can the first toa team be called the toa glokbord" he's kinda cornered in a yes/no situation "yes, they're glokbord" or "no, you're being ridiculous"

 

that's the difference between asking and canonizing. :0

[Mjolnitor]

And Mjol, I'm sorry but how does adding names and putting closure to preestablisged characters help collapse the story..?

An unnamed, elementless, storyless "slot for a toa" isn't a character, especially if that toa is used nowhere and is unlikely to appear somewhere at all.

 

Also, Nitor. Not so much Mjol.

 

To add, I'll restate Bonesiii's question:

Where is this antagonism coming from? Are you truley annoyed with further canonization, or are you just annoyed stuff that you don't like is getting pushed forward?

I'm annoyed with canonization of things that are unlikely to help in or are even destructive to (now stopped) continuation or fanfiction.

[Archon~]

Okay, maybe not a developed character, hat is a good point, but a part of Metru Nui history nonetheless.

 

And because you're annoyed others should stop having fun? Please. And I don't see how anything is destructive to the story really, other than the fact that some fans may find it destructive, which again pertains to personal taste. I personally despise the fact Su Toa have heat resistance, but somehow it made it's way into canon and I'll just go with it, I'm not going to whine about it and try to ruin someone's fun.

[Mjolnitor]

And because you're annoyed others should stop having fun? Please.

Let them have fun without further multiplication of setting issues.

[Archon~]

I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of how fans are "multiplying setting issues". If anything, they're being eliminated.

[believe victims]

@Wally: Honestly, I think it's unfair that you're comparing Tolkien's day and age to today. Yeah he wasn't asked questions due to several reasons many which are attributed to lack of the Internet and general fan-author relations. I think if you give at least a miniscule amount of thought to how your comparison of 20th century and 21st century ability for fans and authors to interact doesn't coalign, you'll see that what you're saying doesn't really make sense. I'm sure if Tolkien were alive and were to have a forum where fans could ask questions, or add suggestions to the story, people would lose it.

 

Are you suggesting nobody ever wrote Tolkien letters? Do you honestly think before the internet was invented there was no way to talk to somebody besides face-to-face? But hey, you're right. I'm not making a completely accurate comparison. (For starters, unlike Tolkien, Greg is not the mastermind behind this universe.) What about Harry Potter? Has J.K. Rowling been taking many fan suggestions for names and talents of background students? Has Suzanne Collins allowed fans to slowly fill in Katniss's entire childhood, or decide the winning district for each and every Hunger Games? They don't have the same limitations you impose on Tolkien, yet still rampant fan canonization hasn't happened, and the stories don't seem much worse off for it.

 

And again, if this is about "fun", then you need to reevaluate why you're looking for things to canonize.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Wally

[Ektris]

I'd really just like to address one of my biggest issues with those trying to defend these actions:

 

If I do not like what is being done, NO I CANNOT JUST IGNORE IT!

 

(Capped for emphasis since I already bold... not necessarily yelling. Or maybe I am.)

 

Because there will always, always be somebody there to "correct" you over something you didn't know got canonized or don't like canonized. And it won't matter that you "chose" not to. Nevermind that you really can't just "choose" not to accept something that is fact...  As an example, I am very passionate about the old Star Wars Expanded Universe. But it's not canon now and I can't just choose to believe it is (as much as I would like to, and I really very much would), because going forward everything will be based on the fact that it's not and doesn't matter. It's a flipped scenario here, but still similar. Because to everyone else it is real and that's all that matters. You will always have to deal with being "wrong."

 

What has been happening here lately IS literally just writing fanfiction and pushing it forward. Go write your stories and enjoy that - the fun wouldn't be any different. But doing it with the canonization agenda shouldn't be happening.

 

~|ET|~

Edited December 5, 2014 by Electric Turahk

[bonesiii]

 

 

I'd say another key difference between then and now is that ideas actually had a chance of being referenced in the story, or at least acknowledged in some way

However, this is not the only driver of worldbuilding, and few things from each year's "cloud" usually get featured the next year, while that year is also adding to the worldbuilding. Expecting it all to eventually be featured is a losing game mathematically.

 

 

For example, as far as I remember, quite a few people were against Su-Matoran having stronger heat resistence, and people protested this quite a bit after it was canonized and even pestered Greg about it.

Yeah, that's a good example of when it goes wrong, but notice that the problem wasn't Greg's interaction with fans but LACK of it due to LEGO's policies, so he wasn't on here participating in the discussions like he used to in the old days. He was thus unaware that a lot of us had pointed out this serious problem with that.
 

 

I was jsut using that as an example, what i meant was: it doesn't do much of actual worldbuilding, it just gives our cast more blank-faced toa (it already has too many!) with no actual character description.

Again, establishing a mask power that they probably picked or at least must deal with is a little bit of characterization, but my main point is, this is assuming Greg can't also establish some of his personality.
 

 

a better use of worldbuilding questions for greg would be, say "what kind of rahi live on voya nui?

I don't know if it's better or worse -- it's also good. Although there's people complaining about the same basic thing with the Fikou Nui (personally I don't care either way on that one).
 

 

stuff that wasn't detailed enough when 2006 was up and running

This is getting off-topic, but VN's landscape was pretty detailed (and Rahi).
 

 

meanwhile, we instead have been getting: "sayger drew another mask without checking the actual pool of canon kanohi

Are you suggesting that he should have once again used the excuse of just using a mask that we already have seen? I do think there's a place for that, even for "overusing" it from a story-only perspective, simply because of the set side of it. But it also makes sense to have some new masks made. That was actually probably the best thing Sayger ever did for Bionicle (the worst MIGHT have been his Piraka spines portrayal... ).
 

 

I find the view of "if people have fun canonizing things, why stop them?" completely mind-boggling. This isn't some fanfiction festival

And... since it isn't... why bring it up? Compared to the amount of worldbuilding LEGO did itself, what has come from fan interaction has been a tiny, tiny percent.

Also keep in mind that that argument is meant to be taken in context of "within reason", and a lot of discussion has gone on to that end. Now we usually try to involve polling, for example. Mistakes have still been made, some recently,  but then there are mistakes in LEGO-produced content too. We're all human. Actually some of the fan content has gone through more rigorous checking than most of what came from LEGO!
 

 

When Tolkien finished Lord of the Rings, did people harass him to give names and lifestyles to every last elf?

Ummmmmmm....

No offense, but I can only guess that you haven't read much Tolkien if you think he's a good example to bring up against worldbuilding (and fan interaction for that matter).

And why do you have to see it in these melodramatic terms like "harass" and "force"? Authors like this ENJOY working with fans to improve the worldbuilding.

Outta time. Hope that suffices for now.

Edited December 6, 2014 by bonesiii

[believe victims]

Ummmmmmm....

No offense, but I can only guess that you haven't read much Tolkien if you think he's a good example to bring up against worldbuilding (and fan interaction for that matter).

 

And why do you have to see it in these melodramatic terms like "harass" and "force"? Authors like this ENJOY working with fans to improve the worldbuilding.

 

I never said he was against worldbuilding and fan-interaction. I said he wouldn't be likely to throw in a bunch of meaningless garbage because people want him to. I even gave other author examples of equivalent situations in other stories that haven't happened.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

     To a point, it's good. The Toa of The Green is a good example, I think. Now that there's a canon Toa of The Green, a fanfiction about him would be much more accessable than without a canon Toa of The Green. It feels more real because we all know there was really a Toa of The Green.

     But get too much past that, and canon becomes a burden to the writer. If he's canonized to have a Fikou Weapon, then a fanfiction writer has to explain just what a Fikou Weapon is, what it does, why he has one. Or a more extreme (ridiculous)  example: if someone gets Greg to canonize a daily routine for him, then that would be severly inhibiting to any sort of story about his life, since it would have to work into that routine or justify the exception. So it really only hampers the _^fanbase.

     (Also, 'ignore it' is not entirely impossible. There's a good percentage of the fanbase that headcanons Huki and Maku, and most of the others will at least understand the concept, even if they disagree with it. True, this won't work for most things, but I'm just pointing out that it can happen, to an extent.)

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

    (Also, 'ignore it' is not entirely impossible. There's a good percentage of the fanbase that headcanons Huki and Maku, and most of the others will at least understand the concept, even if they disagree with it. True, this won't work for most things, but I'm just pointing out that it can happen, to an extent.)

 

that's because we are smart people and don't take retcons of that audacity lightly. :n

 

(also, didn't quote it but yeah, what you said about the toa of the green is important, if we get too much info it becomes restrictive, especially since this is a less-than-background-character level character here.)

[Archon~]

 

Ummmmmmm....

 

No offense, but I can only guess that you haven't read much Tolkien if you think he's a good example to bring up against worldbuilding (and fan interaction for that matter).

And why do you have to see it in these melodramatic terms like "harass" and "force"? Authors like this ENJOY working with fans to improve the worldbuilding.

 

I never said he was against worldbuilding and fan-interaction. I said he wouldn't be likely to throw in a bunch of meaningless garbage because people want him to. I even gave other author examples of equivalent situations in other stories that haven't happened.

The authors you use as an example are pretty ridicilous and irrelevant. You're comparing finished stories where authors don't interact with fans on a daily basis. People aren't going nuts about those stories since everything is wrapped up nicely and ended. Bionicle however, is a frayed knot, and people are just trying to wrap things up. It'd be best if you understand that, because, after all...

Edited December 5, 2014 by Archon~

[believe victims]

 

 

Ummmmmmm....

 

No offense, but I can only guess that you haven't read much Tolkien if you think he's a good example to bring up against worldbuilding (and fan interaction for that matter).

And why do you have to see it in these melodramatic terms like "harass" and "force"? Authors like this ENJOY working with fans to improve the worldbuilding.

I never said he was against worldbuilding and fan-interaction. I said he wouldn't be likely to throw in a bunch of meaningless garbage because people want him to. I even gave other author examples of equivalent situations in other stories that haven't happened.

The authors you use as an example are pretty ridicilous and irrelevant. You're comparing finished stories where authors don't interact with fans on a daily basis. People aren't going nuts about those stories since everything is wrapped up nicely and ended. Bionicle however, is a frayed knot, and people are just trying to wrap things up. It'd be best if you understand that, because, after all...

 

 

Bionicle's end is only a frayed knot because of the wriggling ends of the serials. Otherwise, it's a complete story, start-to-finish.

[Ektris]

(Also, 'ignore it' is not entirely impossible. There's a good percentage of the fanbase that headcanons Huki and Maku, and most of the others will at least understand the concept, even if they disagree with it. True, this won't work for most things, but I'm just pointing out that it can happen, to an extent.)

I'd actually consider that a good example of why you can't (even though I'm firmly in the camp that they did have a relationship... and it's kind of an opposite situation anyways). There are still people who genuinely don't know it is not considered canon, and every time it is brought up ever, there is somebody who has to point out that it isn't canon and doesn't matter.

 

Which was the general point I was getting at - you will always have somebody tell you you're wrong.

 

I could choose not to accept this new Toa Mangai of the Green, for example, and lament in some future topic about how we never had more than one Toa of the Green that wasn't just an off-hand mention despite being an extra element featured relatively early on compared to others added like Iron or Psionics. There will be somebody that will show up to tell me there is. And it's not like I didn't know that, but feigning ignorance doesn't get that point across and can be even counterproductive. You can't just pretend not to know and still discuss the subject.

 

~|ET|~

[Pomegranate]

 

I'd actually consider that a good example of why you can't (even though I'm firmly in the camp that they did have a relationship... and it's kind of an opposite situation anyways). There are still people who genuinely don't know it is not considered canon, and every time it is brought up ever, there is somebody who has to point out that it isn't canon and doesn't matter.

 

Which was the general point I was getting at - you will always have somebody tell you you're wrong.

 

I could choose not to accept this new Toa Mangai of the Green, for example, and lament in some future topic about how we never had more than one Toa of the Green that wasn't just an off-hand mention despite being an extra element featured relatively early on compared to others added like Iron or Psionics. There will be somebody that will show up to tell me there is. And it's not like I didn't know that, but feigning ignorance doesn't get that point across and can be even counterproductive. You can't just pretend not to know and still discuss the subject.

 

~|ET|~

 

That's a very good point, 'cause it leads to things like being talked down to 'cause you were wrong about something that you didn't know got canonized sometime in the last four years of cancellation. The more you canonize bits and pieces, the less and less the general fan supposedly knows (how many people outside of BZPower even know a single thing that becomes "official" here?), and the more high and mighty those who do get to act for little good reason.

[fishers64]

@Fishers: I meant more along the lines that the people who had these ideas are a part of this community, ands since they are, that's why I believe BZP could make an effort to do checks and balances.

BZPower doesn't control what I do elsewhere on other websites - that's just silly*. Actually, I have canonized a really minor detail using the LMB myself that nobody objected to (and now nobody remembers, probably) which would put me in the pro-canonization camp (sort of). If I had posted that detail on BZP before...it was a question that I thought the answer would be "no" to, so I figured it would be a waste of the fanbase's time.  

 

What we're really asking is that anyone who wants to canonize anything should spend a lot of time studying and taking our preferences into account, via a topic, poll, or other means. Unless we really actually don't care about it, in which case go right ahead. Please do not step on our preferences, our wants, or our toes. Thank you and have an excellent day.

 

*unless you badmouth BZPower members, staff, etc on other sites. To my knowledge, that has negative repercussions on-site, as per the rules.  

Edited December 5, 2014 by fishers64

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

I'd actually consider that a good example of why you can't (even though I'm firmly in the camp that they did have a relationship... and it's kind of an opposite situation anyways). There are still people who genuinely don't know it is not considered canon, and every time it is brought up ever, there is somebody who has to point out that it isn't canon and doesn't matter.

 

Which was the general point I was getting at - you will always have somebody tell you you're wrong.

 

I could choose not to accept this new Toa Mangai of the Green, for example, and lament in some future topic about how we never had more than one Toa of the Green that wasn't just an off-hand mention despite being an extra element featured relatively early on compared to others added like Iron or Psionics. There will be somebody that will show up to tell me there is. And it's not like I didn't know that, but feigning ignorance doesn't get that point across and can be even counterproductive. You can't just pretend not to know and still discuss the subject.

 

~|ET|~

 

That's a very good point, 'cause it leads to things like being talked down to 'cause you were wrong about something that you didn't know got canonized sometime in the last four years of cancellation. The more you canonize bits and pieces, the less and less the general fan supposedly knows (how many people outside of BZPower even know a single thing that becomes "official" here?), and the more high and mighty those who do get to act for little good reason.

 

 

agreed here, i've been told off multiple occasions by certain members for not knowing something that was "common knowledge*"

 

*a lego message board answer