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Gen1 Fan Canonization Poll


Gen1 Fan Canonizations  

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So since this has been an issue lately among some fans, I would like to conduct a poll where people can express their opinion regarding fan canonization.

I feel that the questions and answers are reasonable, let me know if you have any complaints. :)

                      Archon                      


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The inability to really canonize significant things makes looking for fan canonizations for gen1 at this stage kinda pointless. The members of the Toa Mangai? Kinda fun. The inability to give them any name that isn't already used? Not so much. The ability to bring a forgotten Rahi into canon? Cool. That the rahi is just a variation on something we've always had? Bleh.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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(Long post incoming! Who says bonesiii is the most longwinded person in S&T?)

 

I wish there were an option that more closely fits my stance on the matter. I am, all things considered, in favor of canonizations. Most of them were pretty harmless, and some contributed positive things to the story. As a BS01 editor, I am especially biased towards the ones that gave us names for background characters or details, such as the Toa Mangai, Nektann (the warlord), and so on and so forth.

 

For example, the Crescent Scythe was assigned no official name, and would probably have been simply referred to as "Blade (Nektann)" by the wiki. The whim of a young fan (who definitely wasn't me;  I'm not blatantly giving a self-promoting example, no sir) gave us a name we could use for future recordkeeping. (Of course, we wouldn't really have needed future recordkeeping if someone hadn't asked if the scythe could channel Nektann's water power, and Greg hadn't said yes. But I digress.)

 

However, I have begun to grow weary of canonizations, especially ones that I see as especially trivial and pointless. For example: I didn't originally care about the elements of the Toa Mangai, but when it got to the point that there was only one unknown left, I was okay with Boidoh's poll to determine the final Toa's element. Call it a compulsion to "complete the set". A poll to determine the Toa's Kanohi, eh, I was fine with that as well, because there were too many masks out there with not enough bearers. The current poll to determine the Toa's weapon, though, is completely frivolous, and I don't see the use of it. Any fan writer or artist who depicts this Toa can choose their weapon for themselves.

 

Besides being weary, I am also wary of some canonizations, because I think they can actually be harmful to the story. I'm not talking about canonizations that contradict previously established canon; Dorek et al. make sure none of those "forgetcons" get recorded on BS01. I'm talking about the times when an innocent yet ignorant fan asks a useless question, ex. "Why do the Toa Metru and Toa Nuva use different set builds? Are they different kinds of Toa?" and gets an annoying, confusing, and needlessly complicated answer, ex. "When a Matoran becomes a Toa, their armor takes the shape of their idea of what a Toa should look like". The answer does explain the difference, but it also complicates the process of becoming a Toa and adds a psychological factor to every Matoran-to-Toa transformation. Subsequent instances that didn't comply with this on-the-fly answer, such as the Toa Inika, were given bizarre explanations to try and bring them in line. The whole thing is a hot mess. The answer to such a pointless question should have been something noncommittal like, "They're wearing different styles of armor. Deal with it", which would have both answered the question and avoided all of the problems that followed. Questions like these are what caused the overcomplication of G1 BIONICLE, and may have contributed to its demise in 2010. This can't be blamed solely on the fans or Greg; it takes two.

 

Thankfully, Greg has recently been more guarded with his responses to such questions in the LMB thread, and has avoided creating more complications like these. I still worry that it could happen again. That's why I am especially wary of the "ask me anything about BIONICLE" vibe Greg encourages. However, on the whole, I think the canonizations are harmless and sometimes even helpful. I ask Greg questions with the intention of tying up loose ends (ex. whether the Toa Mahri were freed in Sahmad's Tale) or clarifying elements of the saga that were unclear. I am not really concerned with acquiring new information, or "leaving my mark on the canon" by naming something or canonizing a theory.

 

As with all things, there are both good and bad things that can come out of canonization, and so it should be handled with caution. We can't expect all of the posters on the LMB thread to be aware of this, but the BZPower and BS01 people who utilize the LMB threads should do with responsibility and restraint.

  • Upvote 10
"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."
-- Harlan Ellison

 

 

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but idk, it seems we're getting niche worldbuilding, instead of actual worldbuilding, and some things that should be known are going unknown while we're getting to learn what color rabbit slippers turaga vakama wore. :t

What should be known that isn't?

 

 

oh, just simple things like nearly the entirety of 2006-2010 locations, cultures and fauna.

Edited by Rahkshi Lalonde
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but idk, it seems we're getting niche worldbuilding, instead of actual worldbuilding, and some things that should be known are going unknown while we're getting to learn what color rabbit slippers turaga vakama wore. :t

What should be known that isn't?

oh, just simple things like nearly the entirety of 2006-2010 locations, cultures and fauna.

The locations are much easier to say than say... 2001 - 5.

The cultures... They could do with a little work.

Fauna... Mostly explained.

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See Lalonde, that's something you prefer. Boidoh, for example likes that promotional sets have some actual use. I'd like to use old Mata Nui names and attribute them to other beings as it was done for Tren Krom and Toa Mangai. Many people just want closure to the 2010 story.

You for example would like to explore more of the fauna and general setting of the vast universe, so why not actually make an LMB account and ask away? I doubt you'll get specifics on cultures, but it doesn't hurt to ask some specific questions if that's what interests you, just don't expect other people who aren't interested in Fauna to ask these questions and advocate for them for you. If you really care about the story, let your voice be heard by the man himself.

And honestly, I feel that Bionicle World and the Rahi book adds QUITE a lot of creatures and describes some minor locations very well. I do think cultures could be worked on, but as I said, I feel that they fall under the scope of things that would be a little harder to convince Greg of as they need description and should be given actual thought.

                      Archon                      


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"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


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You can all guess who voted the first option in both polls.

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I actually made that option with you in mind. You're welcome.

 

Also, Yaldabaoth, I'm just curious, what option would suite you best since you said it isn't on there?

                      Archon                      


***


"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


***Toa Kyraan***

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but idk, it seems we're getting niche worldbuilding, instead of actual worldbuilding, and some things that should be known are going unknown while we're getting to learn what color rabbit slippers turaga vakama wore. :t

What should be known that isn't?

oh, just simple things like nearly the entirety of 2006-2010 locations, cultures and fauna.

The locations are much easier to say than say... 2001 - 5.

The cultures... They could do with a little work.

Fauna... Mostly explained.

 

 

2008 literally had two rahi, and one was just a plot device.

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but idk, it seems we're getting niche worldbuilding, instead of actual worldbuilding, and some things that should be known are going unknown while we're getting to learn what color rabbit slippers turaga vakama wore. :t

What should be known that isn't?

oh, just simple things like nearly the entirety of 2006-2010 locations, cultures and fauna.

The locations are much easier to say than say... 2001 - 5.

The cultures... They could do with a little work.

Fauna... Mostly explained.

 

 

2008 literally had two rahi, and one was just a plot device.

 

 

- Klakk

- Nui-Kopen (mutated)

- Niazesk

- Swamp Stalker

Add me on 3DS: 0516-7750-0068

Add me on Wii U: Boidoh

 

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 4: Never Trust a Snake

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 44: Corridor of Elders

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but idk, it seems we're getting niche worldbuilding, instead of actual worldbuilding, and some things that should be known are going unknown while we're getting to learn what color rabbit slippers turaga vakama wore. :t

What should be known that isn't?

oh, just simple things like nearly the entirety of 2006-2010 locations, cultures and fauna.

The locations are much easier to say than say... 2001 - 5.

The cultures... They could do with a little work.

Fauna... Mostly explained.

 

 

2008 literally had two rahi, and one was just a plot device.

 

 

- Klakk

- Nui-Kopen (mutated)

- Niazesk

- Swamp Stalker

 

 

whoops forgot about the niazesk,

 

don't recall karda nui having any nui-kopen though. (either way, that's a miserable number of rahi for a swamp ecosystem.)

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It was never meant to be a swamp eco system, it just happend to become one, and the Rahi that ended up there fell through the waterfall... That would be a story-wise explaination for "so few" Rahi. You're also forgetting about the Protodites and other microscopic organisms.

Also, how would adding Rahi to Karda Nui help bring closure to the story?

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                      Archon                      


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"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


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How is Karda Nui unfinished? What are you talking about? And it's not a wreck, there have been books, comics and serials that described the events and setting quite well. I'm confused to see what's the issue here.

Identifying details about dead Toa adds to the history of the MU, as well as wraps up loose ends that have been established long ago. They're only being addressed now since there is no way to push the story forward sadly.

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                      Archon                      


***


"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


***Toa Kyraan***

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How is Karda Nui unfinished? What are you talking about? And it's not a wreck, there have been books, comics and serials that described the events and setting quite well. I'm confused to see what's the issue here.

Identifying details about dead Toa adds to the history of the MU, as well as wraps up loose ends that have been established long ago. They're only being addressed now since there is no way to push the story forward sadly.

 

lets just say if we know the weapon and mask of the toa mangai of the green, and the names of every toa of ice in that team as well, then we should maybe at least be able to say we know what karda-nui matoran did aside from cowering in fear and watching mata-nui's heart?

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They did have scareRahi - what are those? :shrugs:

 

...what rahI?

 

See Bionicle Legends #9: Shadows in the Sky. The Matoran in Karda Nui used scareRahi to protect themselves.

 

 

but that's weird 'cause the only flying rahi was the klakk, and that was, if i recall, passive?

 

Even weirder: 

 

2. Are scareRahi like scarecrows?

2a. If so, do they resemble Rahi or Matoran?

 

2) Yes, and they resemble Rahi, as Rahi are not scared of Matoran

 

* * *

 

1. What exactly were they made of? Not entirely sure what resources the Av-Matoran had...

2. Did they resemble actual Rahi breeds, or just some big imaginary monster that would frighten a Rahi?

3. How long would you say it would take to make one? (So I can factor that into my story.)

 

1) Plants from the swamp

2) Both

3) A few hours.

 

Okay, so the scareRahi aren't actually real Rahi. But the Matoran were using them to scare off real flying Rahi, which is really weird.

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This seems like a mountain/molehill argument to me (hence indifferent to both questions). On the one side you have people trying desperately to get every small minuscule thing canonised or clarified. The other side complain that this is somehow eroding the very essence of the story to begin with, that each of these micro-canonisation/clarification things is ruining the ethos as a whole. 

 

But that's the thing. The things that are changing/canonising are so infinitesimally small and insignificant, canonising or not canonising makes no difference whatsoever. I don't understand the need to do it, and I don't understand the need to stop it. If there's ever been a canonisation that has had any significant outcome on the story maybe I could sway one way or another and I would like to know. For now I'm just completely baffled. 

 

That being said, probably half my bafflement is because of being out of touch with the S&T community and the like, so I'm not actually really aware of what is going on most of the time, what the scale is and so on. I dunno.

 

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crickety man.....

good nigh t


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While the story went on, I liked them, mainly because the questions were more pertinent. Fans weren't pestering Greg to canonize their pet theories. In addition, building contests meant that the canonizations were quality. That's the kind of world-building I love and it's the kind that actually makes sense. Having an involved fan base is profoundly important, and up until the end of G1, the line was a paragon of how to make that happen.
 
Unfortunately, it's been a downhill slide ever since. The canonizations that have happened since the end of G1 have been defended by fans who say that it ties up loose ends.
 
Really?
 
A loose end is something that was left a mystery or cliffhanger when the last chapter of the last serial was posted. A loose end would be the story of Velika, Marendar, the Piraka and Mahri, tensions between Matoran and Agori, the fate of the characters on the Red Star. A loose end is not "what mask/weapon did a long-dead, never-to-be-named Toa wear/wield?"
 
Like, if you think that's a valuable addition to the canon, then you're free to have that opinion. I don't understand it.
 
The reveals that happened post-sets is that they ruined parts of the story. The few mysteries remaining from 2001 were revealed, and though I'm not against revealing mysteries, the reveals themselves were underwhelming. The Red Star is a case in point: you take away one of the most mystical aspects of 2001 and reveal that most of the "dead" characters were still alive, all after the story had ended but before Greg could do anything with it. Velika was the same way for me—at least we've still got Kapura as a "lovably odd" character without a "reason" to be the way he is.
 
The problem is not that fans are making additions to the canon—I loved it as long as there was some oversight to the matter—but that there is an overall sense in the fandom that having every whim canonized is some kind of right rather than an astounding privilege.
 
Very few fandoms have any involvement in the canon. Fandoms that do, such as ours, need to have some kind of system left in place so that the canonizations that do occur don't become a free-for-all sprint to get Greg's stamp on pet ideas.
 
The problem is that Greg doesn't care. Greg has better things to do. But if we, as a fandom, keep pestering the man to canonize every detail that sounds valid, he will continue to canonize things because it's easier than remembering the minutiae of a decade-long line that ended five years ago.

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They (can) enrich.

 

But this poll kinda needed a third question about how much, relatively, we felt did that. Some of them I think didn't help. (But then that also applies to LEGO-only produced content. Its being fan-involved really is irrelevant. The real problems in building a fiction's canon have more to do with in-story plausibility issues and some other related things, not who helps, and having more people able to have input enables more sources of good ideas to have a voice. :)) I would vote the majority did.

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The problem is that Greg doesn't care. Greg has better things to do. But if we, as a fandom, keep pestering the man to canonize every detail that sounds valid, he will continue to canonize things because it's easier than remembering the minutiae of a decade-long line that ended five years ago.

From LMB:

 

 

 

 

There's been a debate going on about the canonization of things for old BIONICLE story, and I thought I would share my thoughts on this.

1) First of all, the notion held in some quarters that I no longer care about old BIONICLE and will just canonize anything is wrong and a little insulting. If I did not care about old BIONICLE (or Gen1 as some people call it), I would not be spending my time answering questions on this board. I invested 10 years of my life in Gen1 and wrote over 800,000 words on it. So yes, I care.

2) That said, one of the reasons NOT to add much to canon in the past was the possibility that Gen1 might come back in some form someday. With new BIONICLE officially a reboot, that option is extremely unlikely to happen. So allowing bits into the story here or there is not going to ruin any official plans for the future. Also, since it is also extremely  unlikely that authorization will ever come to write new chapters of old story, the only additions there can be to  old story are these minor canonizations.

3) There are things I do  not want to do. I am not going to add new Toa elements, and I do not want to start doing a lot of retcons which is why I made the rule that if one of my answers is contradicted by pre-established canon, canon takes precedence. The kind of things I have been canonizing -- an extra Rahi for Mata Nui, a name for a Toa team -- are minor and do not ruin or retcon anything from past story. I think the hue and cry over them is a little overblown.

4) Please keep in mind that I do  not own the story -- LEGO Company does, as they own everything to do with BIONICLE. Anything I do is done with their sufferance, and they can, at any point, declare that nothing else can be canonized if they choose to do so. They are the  only ones with the authority to do that. Any segment of the fanbase can choose to  ignore whatever they like, but they do not have the authority to shut the story down

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All of the canonizations I've seen done for Gen 1 Bionicle either took away the imaginative aspect of the series (such as giving side character Official Appearances, or giving side masks never mentioned or used and that are unique in design their own special powers and names, or digging so far down to get into nitty gritty details that don't add to the story but simply make it more convoluted, more complicated and more little things to remember, or to be expected to remember, when it was only the big picture in that instance that mattered). I don't mind some canonizations: the Krakua contest, the Tahtorak, etc... as they're rare and bring a bit more detail to something important that happened in the story... and they're rare.

 

All of the attempts to canonize so many little things, so many little things that have no weight on the overall story and do very little to actually enhance or enrich the world or story, is cumbersome. It's simply more useless details being added to a story already absolutely full to the brim of useless details. It rips out the ability to imagine things differently, to have your own personal theories and explore them.

 

We're also an incredibly niche audience of the Bionicle line. There are many, many others who are a part of the fandom and don't have the say in the lore making we have received in the past; it's not entirely fair for their experience that their experiences might be dictated by fans on a website they've never heard of. That their thoughts, theories, explanations and ideas are already old news since someone canonized that one little detail that nullifies the entire thing.

I'd much rather any canonizations to be done be done through official Lego contests or, at least, with some deliberation on the matter when they're brought up.

 

I definitely do not want to see the Bionicle Story Squad ever exist in any capacity ever again, however.

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They (can) enrich.

How?

 

As I said in my original post, you're certainly entitled to your opinion w/r/t rampant canonization, but I fail to see how a bevy of infinitesimal minutiae qualifies as enrichment when large plot threads have been left dangling for close to half a decade.  :shrugs:

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I voted indifferent for both, because I am. It's never the capacity for canonization, it's the use of it. There have been good things, there have been bad things. It'll continue to be that. But without good intent and critical thinking, it's completely insulting to all fans.
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They (can) enrich.

How?

 

As I said in my original post, you're certainly entitled to your opinion w/r/t rampant canonization, but I fail to see how a bevy of infinitesimal minutiae qualifies as enrichment when large plot threads have been left dangling for close to half a decade. 

:shrugs:

 

I don't like to be the one to point this out, but they can resolve the plot threads. It is technically possible that could happen. Or it could just answer a question and/or resolve a debate. 

 

It doesn't have to be "minutiae". bonesiii said it was possible to enrich, not necessarily that it would.  Yeesh. 

 

Really, the stuff that doesn't enrich will get kicked to the wayside eventually. If this whole thing proves to be an exercise in pointless trivia, people will get bored and move on to other things (like Gen 2, the new and novel distraction). If it does enrich, it will stay.

Edited by fishers64
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Also I just want to say (because I know Greg has read these before, even if he can't comment) that I hope he doesn't take anything negative away from this; I would never want him to stop answering questions, and I think the fact that he cares enough to interact with the fans years after BIONICLE ended is absolutely brilliant. We're a strange, fickle, and oft cantankerous bunch, but we're all bound by the love of BIONICLE, even if we express that in different ways.
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They (can) enrich.

How?

 

As I said in my original post, you're certainly entitled to your opinion w/r/t rampant canonization, but I fail to see how a bevy of infinitesimal minutiae qualifies as enrichment when large plot threads have been left dangling for close to half a decade. 

:shrugs:

 

I don't like to be the one to point this out, but they can resolve the plot threads. It is technically possible that could happen. Or it could just answer a question and/or resolve a debate. 

 

It doesn't have to be "minutiae". bonesiii said it was possible to enrich, not necessarily that it would.  Yeesh. 

 

Really, the stuff that doesn't enrich will get kicked to the wayside eventually. If this whole thing proves to be an exercise in pointless trivia, people will get bored and move on to other things (like Gen 2, the new and novel distraction). If it does enrich, it will stay.

 

Two things:

 

1) The minutiae I mentioned cannot resolve the plot, i.e. there is no way that knowing a never-to-be-named Toa's mask will tell us what happens to the Spherus Magna gang. If there's a way to conclude the story via fan canonizations, I suggest we do that instead of figuring out insignificant details.

 

2) The canonization was kicked into high gear after the main story concluded. It's been five years and there's no real sign of it slowing down. Activity is not a good metric for whether or not something is enriching.

Edited by Sumiki
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Here's a good question:

 

"Would the creation of new Matoran continue on Spherus Magna? If yes, would there be new Toa and Turaga created as well?"

 

Or:

 

"Could the Red Star still be repaired? Did you have any plans to make it so?"

 

These are bad questions:

 

"Did Voya Nui have giant Fikou spiders like Mata Nui?"

 

Or:

 

"Did Gali have latent psionic abilities in MoL when she levitates?"

 

Do we see the difference? One pair tries to tie up loose ends, while the other attempts to fish for inconsequential details. If the Toa Mangai were on the Red Star and could return, then I'd say knowing what their masks/elements/weapons are would be a loose end. But they aren't. Therefore the questions (after a point) about the Bo-Toa become the latter.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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