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Would You Like the Rest of the Toa Mangai's Kanohi to be known?

Mangai Kanohi Decision  

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Read this first before voting.

Lately, there has been quite a lot of debate regarding fans canonizing Gen1 Bionicle details. While these canonizations usually don't provide any insight into the future of the story, mostly due to the fact that Greg doesn't outline his web serials thus cannot provide us with this information, they do provide interesting factual information that helps enrich the in-world history in Bionicle (ex. elements of all the Toa Mangai), however some fans feel that they backfire, myself included in the case of Su-Matoran/Toa/Turaga heat resistance.
The fans that don't like these canonizations feel as if they are pointless, trivial, and don't offer any real insight into the story.
I would also feel inclined to point out that this is the only medium we have at our disposal to find out anything new and interesting about Gen1 Bionicle, a story that was sadly cut short.

With that intro, I would like to point out that a member of BZP, maletoaofwatee, has been quite active of LMB and has managed to give BZP the gift of choosing the Kanohi of the rest of the 7 Toa Mangai. Since some people feel that the Kanohi should be left undetermined, I would like to host a poll and ask people the question above.

Finally, I would ask you to explain why you picked the answer you picked.
HOWEVER if your explaination is going to be filled with sarcasm, ridicule, offensiveness to other members based on their standpoint, I advise that you do not post in this topic. Edited by Archon~
  • Upvote 1

                      Archon                      


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Yes, obviously. It fills in all those "unknown" stuff on BS01. 


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When is this ending?


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Yes, because I want to know as much as I can about these characters. 

Each character has a unique personality, even if they don't have a significant role in the grand scheme of things. After all, that makes the story more interesting. 

Although masks and elements and tools don't offer direct insight to how they behaved, it can give us clues that we can use later on. These trivial facts are what gives Gen 1 life, even though it ended long ago. 

 

When is this ending?

Probably once the many scholarly minds of BZPower decide on a verdict. 


bZpOwEr

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When we get a significant amount of votes. So possibly in a few days at least.

In the meantime, I suggest you seek to close the Toa of Ice Mangai Kanohi Poll until we settle this issue first.

  • Upvote 2

                      Archon                      


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"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

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I find extensive canonization pointless and antithetical to the idea of leaving the universe open to fan interpretation.
 
Continuing these canonizations means more bloat to an extensively bloated G1 story. We gain no information about the personality or names of these characters, nor what they did in the story.
 
Knowing their masks does not enrich the story. It can't.

  • Upvote 6

avatar by Lady Kopaka


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I'm on the fence.

 

In this specific case, I don't really mind. Assigning Kanohi to the other Toa Mangai would both give them some individuality and give some neglected Kanohi more bearers. Some fan artists/writers might complain that their creativity is being stifled, and I hear and understand that perspective. However, other fan artists/writers who are less interested in choosing all the details of the Toa Mangai might find that official mask/element combinations would give them more direction. It certainly is true that "a Toa of Ice with a Kanohi Garai" has a stronger personality and mental image than "a Toa of Ice".

 

However, looking at the big picture, I am becoming somewhat disillusioned with the intense level of canonization going on here and in the LMB thread. Are we going to have a similar poll to determine the masks of all the Toa Cordak now? I am not sure I want that to happen. I don't think G1 canon should be viewed as some sort of puzzle where we have to fit in all the little pieces. I would rather picture it as a painting left unfinished. A better use for canonization would be to finish the broad strokes of the painting, rather than adding more details to what has been done.

 

I haven't voted, and I won't be voting until I come to a conclusion -- which I may not do. In the meantime, I am doing some thinking about how much G1 minutiae means to me, and I would encourage everyone else to do the same.

  • Upvote 4

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."

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Why not?

 

When we get a significant amount of votes. So possibly in a few days at least.

In the meantime, I suggest you seek to close the Toa of Ice Mangai Kanohi Poll until we settle this issue first.

I think that is a little drastic. Said poll isn't doing anybody any harm. We can simply reject the results of the poll if we don't want to know. 

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When we get a significant amount of votes. So possibly in a few days at least.

In the meantime, I suggest you seek to close the Toa of Ice Mangai Kanohi Poll until we settle this issue first.

Or keep it going, then take the results to Greg when we decide something here. Two birds with one stone.


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I find extensive canonization pointless and antithetical to the idea of leaving the universe open to fan interpretation.

 

Continuing these canonizations means more bloat to an extensively bloated G1 story. We gain no information about the personality or names of these characters, nor what they did in the story.

 

Knowing their masks does not enrich the story. It can't.

This might be a matter of opinion, but I love Bionicle's "bloated" story. 

Real life is like that. There's a huge cast of characters, each with their own history, personality, and tools. To be frank, I find this mentality of "it's not helping the story" to be rather hardheaded. It's not like you or the story is being harmed by this canonization. It reduces the unknowns in the Bionicle Universe, making it better and more life-like. 

  • Upvote 5

bZpOwEr

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Yeah, I guess what you two said makes some sense. I just think more care should be taken in the future when posting these polls and maybe organizing them a little bit better.


                      Archon                      


***


"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


***Toa Kyraan***

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I find extensive canonization pointless and antithetical to the idea of leaving the universe open to fan interpretation.

 

Continuing these canonizations means more bloat to an extensively bloated G1 story. We gain no information about the personality or names of these characters, nor what they did in the story.

 

Knowing their masks does not enrich the story. It can't.

This might be a matter of opinion, but I love Bionicle's "bloated" story. 

Real life is like that. There's a huge cast of characters, each with their own history, personality, and tools. To be frank, I find this mentality of "it's not helping the story" to be rather hardheaded. It's not like you or the story is being harmed by this canonization. It reduces the unknowns in the Bionicle Universe, making it better and more life-like.

 

Not all stories have to be like real life. That's part of the appeal of fictional universes—there can be much ambiguity in their presentation to encourage fan theories.

 

Imagine if C.S. Lewis, after writing the Chronicles of Narnia, somehow had access to the Internet and began canonizing endless, pointless details which had no impact on the stories from the books. It doesn't improve the story. At best, it doesn't help, and at worst, the implications of such canonizations can ruin existing canon events.

  • Upvote 1

avatar by Lady Kopaka


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So how does this ruin any events?


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I find extensive canonization pointless and antithetical to the idea of leaving the universe open to fan interpretation.

 

Continuing these canonizations means more bloat to an extensively bloated G1 story. We gain no information about the personality or names of these characters, nor what they did in the story.

 

Knowing their masks does not enrich the story. It can't.

This might be a matter of opinion, but I love Bionicle's "bloated" story. 

Real life is like that. There's a huge cast of characters, each with their own history, personality, and tools. To be frank, I find this mentality of "it's not helping the story" to be rather hardheaded. It's not like you or the story is being harmed by this canonization. It reduces the unknowns in the Bionicle Universe, making it better and more life-like.

 

Not all stories have to be like real life. That's part of the appeal of fictional universes—there can be much ambiguity in their presentation to encourage fan theories.

 

Imagine if C.S. Lewis, after writing the Chronicles of Narnia, somehow had access to the Internet and began canonizing endless, pointless details which had no impact on the stories from the books. It doesn't improve the story. At best, it doesn't help, and at worst, the implications of such canonizations can ruin existing canon events.

 

If it has no impact on the story, how is it a bad thing? If it doesn't do anything significant, why do people despise its existence?

Edited by The Irrational Rock
  • Upvote 2

bZpOwEr

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Really, what does canonizing what a mask does do to affect anything? I hate to repeat what others have said a lot, but that is just ruining people's fun for the sake of it.


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Again: Go write your own stories if you want to decide these things. Group stories, even, to have the same level of collaboration and input.

 

You are "ruining the fun" for people who want this openness and freedom in storytelling. It's a two way street. Nevermind that "it's fun" is the worst possible rationale for why one should be attempting to canonize anything.

 

~|ET|~

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E-T... Phone home.

 

"He walks among us, but he is not one of us."

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Again: Go write your own stories if you want to decide these things. Group stories, even, to have the same level of collaboration and input.

 

You are "ruining the fun" for people who want this openness and freedom in storytelling. It's a two way street. Nevermind that "it's fun" is the worst possible rationale for why one should be attempting to canonize anything.

 

~|ET|~

So let me get this straight...YOU can have fun, but WE can't? 


bZpOwEr

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Again: Go write your own stories if you want to decide these things. Group stories, even, to have the same level of collaboration and input.

 

You are "ruining the fun" for people who want this openness and freedom in storytelling. It's a two way street. Nevermind that "it's fun" is the worst possible rationale for why one should be attempting to canonize anything.

 

~|ET|~

So let me get this straight...YOU can have fun, but WE can't?

 

This should NOT even be about "fun"! The concept of "fun" shouldn't be coming up anywhere in these discussions.

 

That's not a reason to want to make things canon for a story that everyone absorbs, not just yourselves. It's one of the most egotistical reasons for wanting to get things canonized - so the story you decided on is what matters and nobody else can write their own.

 

~|ET|~

Edited by Electric Turahk
  • Upvote 3

E-T... Phone home.

 

"He walks among us, but he is not one of us."

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Again: Go write your own stories if you want to decide these things. Group stories, even, to have the same level of collaboration and input.

 

You are "ruining the fun" for people who want this openness and freedom in storytelling. It's a two way street. Nevermind that "it's fun" is the worst possible rationale for why one should be attempting to canonize anything.

 

~|ET|~

So let me get this straight...YOU can have fun, but WE can't?

 

This should NOT even be about "fun"! The concept of "fun" shouldn't be coming up anywhere in these discussions.

 

That's not a reason to want to make things canon for a story that everyone absorbs, not just yourselves. It's one of the most egotistical reasons for wanting to get things canonized - so the story you decided on is what matters and nobody else can write their own.

 

~|ET|~

 

 

There are these cool things called headcanons. You might want to try one. 

Edited by The Irrational Rock
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bZpOwEr

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

There are these cool things called headcanons. You might want to try one.

 

An excellent suggestion to everyone trying to canonize useless things. Headcanons don't clutter things up with useless detail yet still let you have what weird enjoyment you get from it.

Edited by Wally

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There are these cool things called headcanons. You might want to try one.

Hey, maybe you should too with all the things being brought up for vote lately. Just decide for yourself what they carry.

 

I've already explained elsewhere why once something is "canon," one cannot just "headcanon" it out of existence whilst still continuing to discuss and engage in the storyline. It doesn't work like that.

 

~|ET|~

Edited by Electric Turahk
  • Upvote 1

E-T... Phone home.

 

"He walks among us, but he is not one of us."

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

And you seem to want them to stay that way. By canonizing them, they evolve from that simple state. Not by very much, but it does help some. 

 

 

Hey, maybe you should too with all the things being brought up for vote lately. Just decide for yourself what they carry.

 

I've already explained elsewhere why once something is "canon," one cannot just "headcanon" it out of existence whilst still continuing to discuss and engage in the storyline. It doesn't work like that.

 

~|ET|~

 

There's a reason why they're called "votes". The recent canonization has happened because the community wanted it so. Just look at the results at this poll! I know, not many people have voted in it, but this can still show that the Bionicle community wants things canonized. 


bZpOwEr

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

And you seem to want them to stay that way. By canonizing them, they evolve from that simple state. Not by very much, but it does help some. 

 

 

If you slap a mask and a tool on a cardboard cutout it's still a cardboard cutout.

Edited by Wally

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

And you seem to want them to stay that way. By canonizing them, they evolve from that simple state. Not by very much, but it does help some. 

 

 

If you slap a mask and a tool on a cardboard cutout it's still a cardboard cutout.

 

But it's a cardboard cutout with a mask, not just a cutout. There's a difference. 

Edited by The Irrational Rock
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bZpOwEr

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

And you seem to want them to stay that way. By canonizing them, they evolve from that simple state. Not by very much, but it does help some. 

 

 

If you slap a mask and a tool on a cardboard cutout it's still a cardboard cutout.

 

But it's a cardboard cutout with a mask, not just a cutout. There's a difference. 

 

 

Cool. Can we get sparkles put on it too? That way it's a cardboard cutout with a mask and ~*~sparkles~*~. Even MORE different.

  • Upvote 1

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

And you seem to want them to stay that way. By canonizing them, they evolve from that simple state. Not by very much, but it does help some. 

 

 

If you slap a mask and a tool on a cardboard cutout it's still a cardboard cutout.

 

But it's a cardboard cutout with a mask, not just a cutout. There's a difference. 

 

 

Cool. Can we get sparkles put on it too? That way it's a cardboard cutout with a mask and ~*~sparkles~*~. Even MORE different.

 

Yeah! And while we're at it, let's remove every single detail that separates him from the rest of the cutouts! Let's make him even MORE insignificant like the overzealous purists that we are! 


bZpOwEr

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

And you seem to want them to stay that way. By canonizing them, they evolve from that simple state. Not by very much, but it does help some. 

 

 

If you slap a mask and a tool on a cardboard cutout it's still a cardboard cutout.

 

But it's a cardboard cutout with a mask, not just a cutout. There's a difference. 

 

 

Cool. Can we get sparkles put on it too? That way it's a cardboard cutout with a mask and ~*~sparkles~*~. Even MORE different.

 

Yeah! And while we're at it, let's remove every single detail that separates him from the rest of the cutouts! Let's make him even MORE insignificant like the overzealous purists that we are! 

 

Why are you so emotionally attached to him? He didn't even do anything in the story, and never will, because despite what people seem to believe, it's over, finished, done, THE END, close the book, no afterword or epilogue, finito. Why is the mask of a character who will never even have a name so important? When reading Lord of the Rings, did you wonder what rings the elf in the third row picking his nose on the ships to the Grey Havens wore? When reading Harry Potter, did you wonder the explicit details of every single painting lining the walls of Hogwarts, no matter how small and insignificant? None of this has the slightest bearing on anything except peoples own desires to feel like they're contributing something to the story, even though in the end, they aren't.

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No, obviously. They're meaningless clutter about irrelevant characters.

 

~B~

 

Even calling them "characters" feels like giving it too much credit. They have no personalities, no story, no relevance. They were cardboard cutouts to fill some gaps in a historical event.

 

And you seem to want them to stay that way. By canonizing them, they evolve from that simple state. Not by very much, but it does help some. 

 

 

If you slap a mask and a tool on a cardboard cutout it's still a cardboard cutout.

 

But it's a cardboard cutout with a mask, not just a cutout. There's a difference. 

 

 

Cool. Can we get sparkles put on it too? That way it's a cardboard cutout with a mask and ~*~sparkles~*~. Even MORE different.

 

Yeah! And while we're at it, let's remove every single detail that separates him from the rest of the cutouts! Let's make him even MORE insignificant like the overzealous purists that we are! 

 

Why are you so emotionally attached to him? He didn't even do anything in the story, and never will, because despite what people seem to believe, it's over, finished, done, THE END, close the book, no afterword or epilogue, finito. Why is the mask of a character who will never even have a name so important? When reading Lord of the Rings, did you wonder what rings the elf in the third row picking his nose on the ships to the Grey Havens wore? When reading Harry Potter, did you wonder the explicit details of every single painting lining the walls of Hogwarts, no matter how small and insignificant? None of this has the slightest bearing on anything except peoples own desires to feel like they're contributing something to the story, even though in the end, they aren't.

 

Actually, I think about those things quite often. 

  • Upvote 2

bZpOwEr

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     I like it, to an extent. Canon is helpful because it's common ground for the fans, but at some point it becomes inhibitive to headcanon. Of course, what that point is varies for everyone. I think they'd have to go far past Kanohi to reach it for me, but as others have made clear, they feel we have already past it. This is why I so strongly support an unspecified option, on all polls - those who prefer things left alone deserve a chance to say so before they feel it gets stuffed down their throats.


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It irratates me that the reason why people dislike canonizations is because they are insignificant. If they are insignificant why do they bother you?

  • Upvote 3

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It irratates me that the reason why people dislike canonizations is because they are insignificant. If they are insignificant why do they bother you?

 

I'll see you're question and raise you a question: if they're insignificant, what's the point in the first place?

 

And, more importantly, if somebody went into a story you enjoyed and decided they knew best how to write it, even better than the people who created it in the first place, and their mark on canon is more important than letting the story finally rest and be over with, would you honestly feel you have no right to complain, just because they find such meddling "fun"?

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As far as I can tell, the only thing it really affects at this point is fan-fics. Serials are probably not continuing and probably won't feature the Mangai (I would say since they're all dead, and then I remembered Red Star), and Lego isn't going to be doing much, if anything, with G1. I think it's good to have some designations for fanfics so you don't have to carefully word your story so nothing that isn't canon shows up. Though it is causing quite a bit of controversy about how trivial it is, but why should anyone care? If they're not going to use the characters for anything, it won't matter whether the Toa Mangai of Green wears a Mask of Healing or if it isn't established.

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It irratates me that the reason why people dislike canonizations is because they are insignificant. If they are insignificant why do they bother you?

 

I'll see you're question and raise you a question: if they're insignificant, what's the point in the first place?

 

And, more importantly, if somebody went into a story you enjoyed and decided they knew best how to write it, even better than the people who created it in the first place, and their mark on canon is more important than letting the story finally rest and be over with, would you honestly feel you have no right to complain, just because they find such meddling "fun"?

 

So... by your logic, the other Toa Mangai never existed because of their significance? Seems legit. 

 

I know that this question wasn't directed at me, but the lack of rationality in what you're saying is ridiculous. If you don't like canonization, take it up with Greg. As long as he still allows it, I and those who agree with me will continue to make the story better. 


bZpOwEr

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It's worth nothing most of these Toa technically don't even exist from a story perspective. Greg gave us Lhikan, Nidhiki, Tuyet, Naho, and then four Toa who were notable only because there was a throwaway mention of four Toa of Ice. Three other Toa didn't even get that much detail. These were not characters. They were never intended to be given detail. Bugging Greg to hand out Kanohi powers to seven or eight Toa who he never intended to use in any respect, or even acknowledge more than once, is laughable when there's a lot more enriching things you could ask him that could do some actual worldbuilding.

 

I voted no.

 

Edit: But how? How are you making the story any better? You can't improve on characters who never existed for all intents and purposes. You're just saying "there was once a Toa with a Mask of Derp." How is that enriching anything? I've been seeing you spout this same dumb line all topic and I still haven't seen a shred of real argument that supports it.

 

-Tyler

Edited by Tyler Durden
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whats up doc

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 I and those who agree with me will continue to make the story better. 

 

 

You're not making anything "better", certainly not any story, because they have no story. They fought a dragon. That's their story. Knowing the masks they wore while doing so doesn't change it, for better or for worse. Paint me as the villain all you want, but you're no hero for throwing suggestions at a children's book author until one sticks.

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It's worth nothing most of these Toa technically don't even exist from a story perspective. Greg gave us Lhikan, Nidhiki, Tuyet, Naho, and then four Toa who were notable only because there was a throwaway mention of four Toa of Ice. Three other Toa didn't even get that much detail. These were not characters. They were never intended to be given detail. Bugging Greg to hand out Kanohi powers to seven or eight Toa who he never intended to use in any respect, or even acknowledge more than once, is laughable when there's a lot more enriching things you could ask him that could do some actual worldbuilding.

 

I voted no.

 

Edit: But how? How are you making the story any better? You can't improve on characters who never existed for all intents and purposes. You're just saying "there was once a Toa with a Mask of Derp." How is that enriching anything? I've been seeing you spout this same dumb line all topic and I still haven't seen a shred of real argument that supports it.

 

-Tyler

If they were not intended to be characters, why did Greg allow us to give them characteristics? 

It enriches the story because it gives us knowledge! It solves unknowns! It gives fact to uncertainty! A story with several dozen characters that had no information about them that are given attributes fills the gaps within it. 

 

 

 I and those who agree with me will continue to make the story better. 

 

 

You're not making anything "better", certainly not any story, because they have no story. They fought a dragon. That's their story. Knowing the masks they wore while doing so doesn't change it, for better or for worse. Paint me as the villain all you want, but you're no hero for throwing suggestions at a children's book author until one sticks.

 

Yes, but they could be given one. Just because they don't have a story now doesn't mean that there is no potential for one to fill the gap.

Edited by The Irrational Rock

bZpOwEr

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 I and those who agree with me will continue to make the story better. 

 

 

You're not making anything "better", certainly not any story, because they have no story. They fought a dragon. That's their story. Knowing the masks they wore while doing so doesn't change it, for better or for worse. Paint me as the villain all you want, but you're no hero for throwing suggestions at a children's book author until one sticks.

 

Yes, but they could be given one. Just because they don't have a story now doesn't mean that there is no potential for one to fill the gap.

 

 

No, what does mean there's no potential to fill the gap is Greg saying he's not writing any more stories for Bionicle G1, unless some idiot decides to throw together a list of questions to get specific details on the blow-by-blow of the Kanohi Dragon fight. Otherwise, that entire gap is dead space. Because Bionicle Gen 1 is over and no more story is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever being written about it.

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