Would You Like the Rest of the Toa Mangai's Kanohi to be known?

[shadow pridak money gang]

This is why the S&T crowd on this forum generally bugs me as a whole. There are entire sections of this website devoted to fanfiction and RPing, filling in the blanks in unique and creative ways and giving life to characters that Greg never gave life to. Those sections are where I've spent six years working and writing...and then the S&T guys throw at Greg until finally it sticks, because he has more important questions to answer and you guys will ravenously swallow any "yes" he gives you.

 

There's a point where you should just let fans have what's left of the G1 story and do what they want with it. Having a few more community members say "yes" over community members saying "no" is disrespectful to the people who actively enjoy plotting out their headcanons for what's left of G1. You're ruining it for those people, and if you actually cared about people's interpretations of the story you'd give it a break already.

 

-Tyler

[Irrie]

 

 

 

 I and those who agree with me will continue to make the story better. 

 

 

You're not making anything "better", certainly not any story, because they have no story. They fought a dragon. That's their story. Knowing the masks they wore while doing so doesn't change it, for better or for worse. Paint me as the villain all you want, but you're no hero for throwing suggestions at a children's book author until one sticks.

 

Yes, but they could be given one. Just because they don't have a story now doesn't mean that there is no potential for one to fill the gap.

 

 

No, what does mean there's no potential to fill the gap is Greg saying he's not writing any more stories for Bionicle G1, unless some idiot decides to throw together a list of questions to get specific details on the blow-by-blow of the Kanohi Dragon fight. Otherwise, that entire gap is dead space. Because Bionicle Gen 1 is over and no more story is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever being written about it.

 

Do you think that I don't know that? I am well aware of the fact that there's no more story. 

However we were given the rare privilege to be the writers of the story via this canonization process. Throwing that away would be a waste of an opportunity! 

Are you afraid of knowledge? Because that's what this is looking like. 

 

There's a point where you should just let fans have what's left of the G1 story and do what they want with it. Having a few more community members say "yes" over community members saying "no" is disrespectful to the people who actively enjoy plotting out their headcanons for what's left of G1. You're ruining it for those people, and if you actually cared about people's interpretations of the story you'd give it a break already.

 

 

Yes, let's overlook that fact that your lust for ignorance is ruining it for people that want answers, rather than having to create a make-believe scenarios that can't be confirmed. 

Edited December 7, 2014 by The Irrational Rock

[believe victims]

 

 

 

 

 I and those who agree with me will continue to make the story better. 

 

 

You're not making anything "better", certainly not any story, because they have no story. They fought a dragon. That's their story. Knowing the masks they wore while doing so doesn't change it, for better or for worse. Paint me as the villain all you want, but you're no hero for throwing suggestions at a children's book author until one sticks.

 

Yes, but they could be given one. Just because they don't have a story now doesn't mean that there is no potential for one to fill the gap.

 

 

No, what does mean there's no potential to fill the gap is Greg saying he's not writing any more stories for Bionicle G1, unless some idiot decides to throw together a list of questions to get specific details on the blow-by-blow of the Kanohi Dragon fight. Otherwise, that entire gap is dead space. Because Bionicle Gen 1 is over and no more story is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever being written about it.

 

Do you think that I don't know that? I am well aware of the fact that there's no more story. 

However we were given the rare privilege to be the writers of the story via this canonization process. Throwing that away would be a waste of an opportunity! 

Are you afraid of knowledge? Because that's what this is looking like. 

 

You're not writing story, you're filling in Trivial Pursuit cards.

 

I'm not afraid of knowledge, I'm tired of people making up knowledge and pretending they're doing something worthwhile. Lording over other people about it, even.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

If they were not intended to be characters, why did Greg allow us to give them characteristics? 

It enriches the story because it gives us knowledge! It solves unknowns! It gives fact to uncertainty!

Because Greg is indifferent by now, and willing to throw a shrug at those pestering him? That does nothing to change how they are not characters in the story.

 

Why is certainty needed? Plenty of works have ambiguity for central plot areas, for which the direct word of the author is that things are meant to be ambiguous. That ambiguity doesn't diminish anything, but removing it certainly could because it reduces the scope of interpretation. This case is on a tremendously smaller scale, because the ambiguity of trivial background cutouts has no bearing on any of the story. If you feel so strongly that ambiguity needs resolution, why can't fanfiction suffice? The only thing that distinguishes these cases from fanfiction is that Greg apparently is apathetic enough to say "Sure okay" to most suggestions these days.

 

~B~

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ballom

[shadow pridak money gang]

I was gonna write up a whole 'nother post but thanks Jess

 

-Tyler

[Archon~]

 

It irratates me that the reason why people dislike canonizations is because they are insignificant. If they are insignificant why do they bother you?

 

 

I'll see you're question and raise you a question: if they're insignificant, what's the point in the first place?

 

And, more importantly, if somebody went into a story you enjoyed and decided they knew best how to write it, even better than the people who created it in the first place, and their mark on canon is more important than letting the story finally rest and be over with, would you honestly feel you have no right to complain, just because they find such meddling "fun"?

One person's meddling is anothers fun, and we're "meddling with deceasd characters. In what way does this bother you, I mean seriously, are you just stubborn regarding the issue or do you actually think there's a solid reason that these shouldn't be pushed foreward? Also, I've noticed your wording, in this topic and others, is wuite strong while the rest of us keep it more or less civil, you use a lot of sarcasm, it's annoying. If you have something to say with solid vacking, do that instead of just rambling on.

[shadow pridak money gang]

There's a point where you should just let fans have what's left of the G1 story and do what they want with it. Having a few more community members say "yes" over community members saying "no" is disrespectful to the people who actively enjoy plotting out their headcanons for what's left of G1. You're ruining it for those people, and if you actually cared about people's interpretations of the story you'd give it a break already.

 

 

Yes, let's overlook that fact that your lust for ignorance is ruining it for people that want answers, rather than having to create a make-believe scenarios that can't be confirmed. 

 

 

Coming from the guy who told ET to stick to his headcanons just a page ago I find this rebuttal almost as sad as it is ironically funny

 

-Tyler

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tyler Durden

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

Bionicle Gen 1 is over and no more story is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever being written about it.

 

     Fanfictions.

     Obviously, these are not canon. But I've read a handful of good fanfictions and pretty much assimilated them into my headcanon. And canon aspects of the story used in them can make them feel more canon. There are fewer disputable details. This is why I support further canonizations.

     At the same time, they can inhibit fanfiction as well. Imagine if Greg canonized that the Toa of The Green's mask was an Elda. That would just be in any fanfiction.

[Irrie]

You're not writing story, you're filling in Trivial Pursuit cards.

 

 

I'm not afraid of knowledge, I'm tired of people making up knowledge and pretending they're doing something worthwhile. Lording over other people about it, even.

 

Trivial information isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

 

 

If they were not intended to be characters, why did Greg allow us to give them characteristics? 

It enriches the story because it gives us knowledge! It solves unknowns! It gives fact to uncertainty!

Because Greg is indifferent by now, and willing to throw a shrug at those pestering him? That does nothing to change how they are not characters in the story.

 

Why is certainty needed? Plenty of works have ambiguity for central plot areas, for which the direct word of the author is that things are meant to be ambiguous. That ambiguity doesn't diminish anything, but removing it certainly could because it reduces the scope of interpretation. This case is on a tremendously smaller scale, because the ambiguity of trivial background cutouts has no bearing on any of the story. If you feel so strongly that ambiguity needs resolution, why can't fanfiction suffice? The only thing that distinguishes these cases from fanfiction is that Greg apparently is apathetic enough to say "Sure okay" to most suggestions these days.

 

~B~

 

"Make a fanfiction".

If that's the solution to everything, why do you even follow a storyline that's already made? Why not go off and make your own book? 

 

 

There's a point where you should just let fans have what's left of the G1 story and do what they want with it. Having a few more community members say "yes" over community members saying "no" is disrespectful to the people who actively enjoy plotting out their headcanons for what's left of G1. You're ruining it for those people, and if you actually cared about people's interpretations of the story you'd give it a break already.

 

 

Yes, let's overlook that fact that your lust for ignorance is ruining it for people that want answers, rather than having to create a make-believe scenarios that can't be confirmed. 

 

 

Coming from the guy who told ET to stick to his headcanons just a page ago I find this rebuttal almost as sad as it is ironically funny

 

-Tyler

 

I'm talking about making fanfictions for myself, thank you very much. 

[shadow pridak money gang]

Exactly. You're not leaving anything up to Greg, really, you're just pestering him to make polls, clutter S&T, and when members vote on a mask arbitrarily it gets slapped onto BS01 and it's another fanfiction screwball.

 

-Tyler

[Irrie]

Exactly. You're not leaving anything up to Greg, really, you're just pestering him to make polls, clutter S&T, and when members vote on a mask arbitrarily it gets slapped onto BS01 and it's another fanfiction screwball.

 

-Tyler

Actually, I do. Greg was the one that gave this the green light in the first place. If you don't want this to happen, talk to him about it. 

[believe victims]

 

 

Bionicle Gen 1 is over and no more story is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever being written about it.

 

     Fanfictions.

     Obviously, these are not canon. But I've read a handful of good fanfictions and pretty much assimilated them into my headcanon. And canon aspects of the story used in them can make them feel more canon. There are fewer disputable details. This is why I support further canonizations.

     At the same time, they can inhibit fanfiction as well. Imagine if Greg canonized that the Toa of The Green's mask was an Elda. That would just be in any fanfiction.

 

 

The best thing about fanfiction is you can write whatever you want.

 

And honestly, if you're writing fanfiction about the unnamed Toa of the Green who was mentioned once at most, knowing what mask he wore isn't going to help you write him any better.

 

 

One person's meddling is anothers fun, and we're "meddling with deceasd characters. In what way does this bother you, I mean seriously, are you just stubborn regarding the issue or do you actually think there's a solid reason that these shouldn't be pushed foreward?

 

I just laid out quite clearly why I object to this meddling numerous times. It's just apparently not enough for you, because you desire a signed, notarized document from the Queen or something?

 

 

 

 

If they were not intended to be characters, why did Greg allow us to give them characteristics? 

It enriches the story because it gives us knowledge! It solves unknowns! It gives fact to uncertainty!

Because Greg is indifferent by now, and willing to throw a shrug at those pestering him? That does nothing to change how they are not characters in the story.

 

Why is certainty needed? Plenty of works have ambiguity for central plot areas, for which the direct word of the author is that things are meant to be ambiguous. That ambiguity doesn't diminish anything, but removing it certainly could because it reduces the scope of interpretation. This case is on a tremendously smaller scale, because the ambiguity of trivial background cutouts has no bearing on any of the story. If you feel so strongly that ambiguity needs resolution, why can't fanfiction suffice? The only thing that distinguishes these cases from fanfiction is that Greg apparently is apathetic enough to say "Sure okay" to most suggestions these days.

 

~B~

 

"Make a fanfiction".

If that's the solution to everything, why do you even follow a storyline that's already made? Why not go off and make your own book? 

 

 That doesn't even make any sense as a rebuttal? At this moment, what you are advocating is writing your own thing anyway, not following one that's already written. You are, essentially, writing fanfiction already. You just want it to have the official stamp of approval so you can feel important about it.

[Irrie]

 

 

 

 

If they were not intended to be characters, why did Greg allow us to give them characteristics? 

It enriches the story because it gives us knowledge! It solves unknowns! It gives fact to uncertainty!

Because Greg is indifferent by now, and willing to throw a shrug at those pestering him? That does nothing to change how they are not characters in the story.

 

Why is certainty needed? Plenty of works have ambiguity for central plot areas, for which the direct word of the author is that things are meant to be ambiguous. That ambiguity doesn't diminish anything, but removing it certainly could because it reduces the scope of interpretation. This case is on a tremendously smaller scale, because the ambiguity of trivial background cutouts has no bearing on any of the story. If you feel so strongly that ambiguity needs resolution, why can't fanfiction suffice? The only thing that distinguishes these cases from fanfiction is that Greg apparently is apathetic enough to say "Sure okay" to most suggestions these days.

 

~B~

 

"Make a fanfiction".

If that's the solution to everything, why do you even follow a storyline that's already made? Why not go off and make your own book? 

 

 That doesn't even make any sense as a rebuttal? At this moment, what you are advocating is writing your own thing anyway, not following one that's already written. You are, essentially, writing fanfiction already. You just want it to have the official stamp of approval so you can feel important about it.

 

The reason why I'm doing this is because I am doing what I can to make the story better. I'm not trying to do this to 'feel important', I'm doing this for the sake of others that want to know more about the Bionicle lore.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

 

 

 

 

If they were not intended to be characters, why did Greg allow us to give them characteristics? 

It enriches the story because it gives us knowledge! It solves unknowns! It gives fact to uncertainty!

Because Greg is indifferent by now, and willing to throw a shrug at those pestering him? That does nothing to change how they are not characters in the story.

 

Why is certainty needed? Plenty of works have ambiguity for central plot areas, for which the direct word of the author is that things are meant to be ambiguous. That ambiguity doesn't diminish anything, but removing it certainly could because it reduces the scope of interpretation. This case is on a tremendously smaller scale, because the ambiguity of trivial background cutouts has no bearing on any of the story. If you feel so strongly that ambiguity needs resolution, why can't fanfiction suffice? The only thing that distinguishes these cases from fanfiction is that Greg apparently is apathetic enough to say "Sure okay" to most suggestions these days.

 

~B~

 

"Make a fanfiction".

If that's the solution to everything, why do you even follow a storyline that's already made? Why not go off and make your own book?

 

 

 That doesn't even make any sense as a rebuttal? At this moment, what you are advocating is writing your own thing anyway, not following one that's already written. You are, essentially, writing fanfiction already. You just want it to have the official stamp of approval so you can feel important about it.

 

The reason why I'm doing this is because I am doing what I can to make the story better. I'm not trying to do this to 'feel important', I'm doing this for the sake of others that want to know more about the Bionicle lore.

 

It's your opinion that it makes the story better. You have no idea what all of the fans desire. Why do facts like these need to be reflected in the official storyline? It only cheapens the original story, muddying the waters by making it difficult to discern what facts were the actual careful planning of the creators and what were fans throwing darts at a target until they stuck.

 

~B~

[fishers64]

 

No, what does mean there's no potential to fill the gap is Greg saying he's not writing any more stories for Bionicle G1, unless some idiot decides to throw together a list of questions to get specific details on the blow-by-blow of the Kanohi Dragon fight. Otherwise, that entire gap is dead space. Because Bionicle Gen 1 is over and no more story is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever being written about it.

 

Except for fanfiction. And honestly, we can't say that Greg or Lego will NEVER EVER EVER decide to revisit Gen 1. At this point, it is extremely unlikely. But not impossible. 

 

Exactly. You're not leaving anything up to Greg, really, you're just pestering him to make polls, clutter S&T, and when members vote on a mask arbitrarily it gets slapped onto BS01 and it's another fanfiction screwball.

 

-Tyler

 

The best thing about fanfiction is you can write whatever you want.

 

And honestly, if you're writing fanfiction about the unnamed Toa of the Green who was mentioned once at most, knowing what mask he wore isn't going to help you write him any better.

Actually, these are out and out untruths. It's 200% easier to write about a Toa of the Green with a mask of healing than "random unknown Toa Mangai". I can get inside the former's head and imagine his life - the reasons why he picked the mask of healing, the reasons why he joined Lhikan and came to Metru Nui. The latter is just a blank space, a historical footnote. With this canonization, a footnote becomes a character that I can write about. 

 

Footnotes don't write stories. Characters write stories. 

 

The conflict you're referring to is if I planned out a Toa Mangai fanfiction prior to this, and had decided that he was a different element. Then I might feel annoyed, yes. But does anyone here have a fanfiction running currently that uses the Toa Mangai that established the eleventh as something else? If so, please stand up.  Otherwise there is no need to defend fanfiction that doesn't even exist, and instead choose to further future fanfiction writers of tomorrow by giving them something to work with. 

 

 

 

Again: Go write your own stories if you want to decide these things. Group stories, even, to have the same level of collaboration and input.

 

You are "ruining the fun" for people who want this openness and freedom in storytelling. It's a two way street. Nevermind that "it's fun" is the worst possible rationale for why one should be attempting to canonize anything.

 

~|ET|~

So let me get this straight...YOU can have fun, but WE can't?

 

This should NOT even be about "fun"! The concept of "fun" shouldn't be coming up anywhere in these discussions.

 

That's not a reason to want to make things canon for a story that everyone absorbs, not just yourselves. It's one of the most egotistical reasons for wanting to get things canonized - so the story you decided on is what matters and nobody else can write their own.

 

~|ET|~

 

The concept of fun is why stories exist in the first place. 

 

Okay, I know someone will argue that stories exist to teach moral lessons/do themes/etc. But having fun is at least part of the reason all of us follow Bionicle - if it wasn't fun, why bother?

[Snelly]

Honestly I think one of these unnamed Toa should have a Mask of Genderbending. 

[shadow pridak money gang]

 

 

No, what does mean there's no potential to fill the gap is Greg saying he's not writing any more stories for Bionicle G1, unless some idiot decides to throw together a list of questions to get specific details on the blow-by-blow of the Kanohi Dragon fight. Otherwise, that entire gap is dead space. Because Bionicle Gen 1 is over and no more story is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever being written about it.

 

Except for fanfiction. And honestly, we can't say that Greg or Lego will NEVER EVER EVER decide to revisit Gen 1. At this point, it is extremely unlikely. But not impossible. 

 

Exactly. You're not leaving anything up to Greg, really, you're just pestering him to make polls, clutter S&T, and when members vote on a mask arbitrarily it gets slapped onto BS01 and it's another fanfiction screwball.

 

-Tyler

 

The best thing about fanfiction is you can write whatever you want.

 

And honestly, if you're writing fanfiction about the unnamed Toa of the Green who was mentioned once at most, knowing what mask he wore isn't going to help you write him any better.

Actually, these are out and out untruths. It's 200% easier to write about a Toa of the Green with a mask of healing than "random unknown Toa Mangai". I can get inside the former's head and imagine his life - the reasons why he picked the mask of healing, the reasons why he joined Lhikan and came to Metru Nui. The latter is just a blank space, a historical footnote. With this canonization, a footnote becomes a character that I can write about. 

 

Footnotes don't write stories. Characters write stories. 

 

 

Or, conversely, I could give a character one of three dozen different masks - including some immoral masks - and give them a set of reasons for why they picked it. It's not the easy road, but it's more satisfying and gives a wider potential pool of characterization.

 

-Tyler

[25K Now!]

There are probably more important things to ask Greg about than canonising some footnote's mask.

[Snelly]

There are probably more important things to ask Greg about than canonising some footnote's mask.

 

Yeah Greg is probably busy doing something that's actually important to him instead of you know, catering to a bunch of G1 fan's desire to catalog everything.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Skitty

[Black Six]

Everyone here needs to take a deep breath and calm down. If you don't agree with the approach people are taking, that's fine. Vote or don't vote depending on your preferences. Do not attack other people and have a borderline flaming match over this. We're talking about a children's toy line here - it's not the end of the world.

 

If people keep arguing as they have been in this topic, it will be closed and Administrative Action will be taken.

[Constructelf]

There are probably more important things to ask Greg about than canonising some footnote's mask.

^

 

While I'm normally a trivia fanatic for any story that I follow, this time... It just seems "meh", given that:

 

1) Bioncle Gen 1 is probably not going to come back soon, if at all.

2) Most of the Toa Mangai were pretty much bit players.

3) Which mask the Toa Mangai wore didn't have much of an impact on the plot

 

... I could try to rationalize it further but at its core, I just feel that there are other things that are more worth canonizing at the very least, and at the very most feel that it's time to move on.

 

Might just be this moodiness I've been going through lately tough...

Edited December 7, 2014 by namcurtsnoC

[Ektris]

The concept of fun is why stories exist in the first place. 

 

Okay, I know someone will argue that stories exist to teach moral lessons/do themes/etc. But having fun is at least part of the reason all of us follow Bionicle - if it wasn't fun, why bother?

Yeah I realized I did an incredibly poor job at explaining myself there... Sorry about that guys.

 

I would like to encourage people to have fun writing stories. And certainly enjoy debating story aspects - most should know I am certainly no stranger to that. I wouldn't have done it for so long (and now be returning to it) if I didn't like to.

 

But if your only reason for coming up with things to be canon is "it's fun," I don't feel like that's a good starting point. It should be to actually fill plot holes* and explain things really needing it. It's the type of thing that shouldn't be happening just for the sake of it.

 

*Which I understand is being used by some also for their rationale. But what one views as "plot holes" can definitely vary. I'm just on the side of the fence now that sees topics like the current one as not holes that need filled.

 

~|ET|~

[Palm]

As far as learning more about the world, I'd rather hear Greg's thoughts on things instead of asking him to lay things out in stone (based upon our votes no less).

Arbitrary masks are alright I guess, but ambiguity is a fan-fiction writer's GOLD MINE. Yes, they need structure, and yes they need world-building context, but the more limitations there are on a specific place, the less likely people are going to creatively come up with interesting ideas or write about those ideas.

As an writer I enjoy looking at the places that are unclear. Like, what did Greg think about all the Makuta in the universe? What roles did they all play? What interesting characters could we create out of the 100 Makuta that existed at one time? And Greg coming in an making those decisions FOR me would be fine I guess, but it takes away the power of us as a community. Which is sort of ironic, cause it's our choice to do this or not.

I can think of far worse things to canonize, but there's plenty of reasons not to.

That's my two cents anyways.

EDIT:
That being said, there's a lot of cool stuff out there I wouldn't mind finding out more about.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Palm

[fishers64]

 

Or, conversely, I could give a character one of three dozen different masks - including some immoral masks - and give them a set of reasons for why they picked it. It's not the easy road, but it's more satisfying and gives a wider potential pool of characterization.

 

-Tyler

I think there are more important things to a character than what mask power and elemental power they have, but rather the reasons why. 

 

Honestly, you make it seem like "write a character that has been limited by canonization into something you don't like" and "embrace the wide possibility range offered by not canonizing something". There is two more options: "write fanfiction about something else" and "not write fanfiction at all". And this canonization brings something out that I had not previously noticed or noted to write about, which I now can. Previously I had not even considered it. 

 

(Which may be a matter of writing preferences. I find settling ambiguity and deciding which ideas fit together for the best result to be the hardest part of writing stories. Others may not.)

 

Now if we were going to say, come up with all the elements and masks for all 45 some-odd Toa that exist right now, I would say that the concern is valid - there's no need to limit creativity like that. But we're talking about one Toa team that's dead, and there's stuff we know about them that makes certain elements and masks more likely than others. It helps people focus their fanfiction so they know which canon rules they want to follow and which ones to break. And that's a good thing. 

 

Please, everyone, this is still a highly preferential debate. IMO insulting people won't suddenly make you have more logic than the opposing side. Not that I'm feeling great confidence in my preference for a certain possibility either, but still. 

[Dorek]

I suppose an "indifferent" option wouldn't hurt, but then again, if often ends up being a yes or no issue. I'd say no, I don't need to know. I don't even want to know who the Kakama belonged to, really, I liked that it was a forgotten relic of a forgotten Toa. More poetic that way.

[ALVIS]

I suppose an "indifferent" option wouldn't hurt, but then again, if often ends up being a yes or no issue. I'd say no, I don't need to know. I don't even want to know who the Kakama belonged to, really, I liked that it was a forgotten relic of a forgotten Toa. More poetic that way.

 

That's a really good point. Currently, the Kakama in Time Trap is the only thing that remains of a long-serving Toa Mangai, whose life's struggle was certainly worthwhile but ultimately forgotten. It's quite a tragedy.

 

Now, suppose we run our poll and determine that it was a Kanohi Kakama belonging to, I don't know, the Toa of Earth.

 

What does that contribute to the emotional significance of the scene? Absolutely nothing. The Shadowed One doesn't know what the Toa's element was, nor does the reader, and neither of them needs to. The scene was about the efforts of unsung heroes and the inexorable march of time. While the reader was probably meant to wonder who this Toa was and how they lived their life, worrying about which element they wielded is egregiously missing the point.

 

This is one of the reasons I'm reconsidering my views of canonization. Knowing who wore the Kanohi Kakama does not contribute anything to the lore. It doesn't solve a long-running mystery or fill in a plot hole. It just completes a chart on a BS01 article.

 

Taking all of that into consideration, I've made up my mind, and I'm going to vote "no". This is an unnecessary use of canonization that has lost sight of the original allure of the Toa Mangai.

[Regitnui]

People were warned to calm down. Everyone else did. You did not. Your choice of phrasing was extremely poor and intolerant. See you next week. -B6 Edited December 7, 2014 by Black Six

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I'm okay with Kanohi masks, that does not bug me. I'm a little more iffy on specific details like the weapons because that in itself just feels more insignificant, whereas Masks are a defining part of a Toa character. 

 

-NotS

[Banana Gunz]

Oh dang, this subject really hits a soft spot in the community, doesn't it?

 

I'm on the fence. It's real nice up here, because I can watch all of you fight and squabble angrily down below.

 

By the way, when I say nice, the only thing nice about it is that I'm not having my own skin torn off. It's really upsetting to the people who can't seem to control their language snap at others.

 

Perhaps I haven't voted, simply because I don't ultimately care. I find it intriguing what they could be, because such details are kind of a treat to those who've craved to hear something from a story lost and ended so long ago. At the same time, it won't change the world. It won't make things different. I'm never one for clumsy details that take up random space, but I guess it applies more to environment and world setting than characters. So perhaps the idea of seeing just a little glimpse of these characters through the masks they chose to wear and nothing more makes things interesting. I guess I'm alright with the mask canonizations, as long as that's the limit. Unless the detail has some sort of vague reflection towards what the character is, there's no need for it. Like giving the weapons. Needless, unless one of them like the leader had a special sword or such that they held close to them and meant more to them than a weapon.

[Dorek]

Quote removed. -B6

I think Apartheid references and civil are about as far away from each other as you can get.

 

This is a sensitive subject, clearly, but the need to respect each other applies to both sides, as well as (in meta-contextualizing), the indifferent people who are judging on the nature of the discourse itself - people like me, for instance.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Black Six

[Archon~]

Quote removed. -B6

To add to this, can the people who use sarcasm as a way to get a point across cut that out? Think of a better way to rephrase your point, and if snarky sarcasm gives you some feeling of superiority, then there's some bigger problem there that's mostly in nature of character.

 

Plus not only is sarcasm disrespectful, it causes flame wars.

Also, to better the debate grounds, please try to stick to nice worsing, for example the kind of wording bonesiii and fishers use.

I don't care what your age or mental state is, but please, please everyone chill out

 

On the ither hand, I left the topic for like a few hours and it turned upside down into a battlefield, so I have to say I LOVE YOU ALL AND YOUR ENTHUSIASM FOR THE DEAD STORY. It's a real tear jerker. :')

Edited December 7, 2014 by Black Six

[Doctor Makuta]

Yes, why not?

[Swert]

This will probably matter to nobody, but I voted no. I agree with the belief that headcanon and roleplaying are powerful tools in the fandom, even more so than Word of Greg canonization.

 

The other problem I have with knowing the rest of the masks is the uselessness of it. The original point behind Kanohi was to have multiple masks; Each Toa Mata used 12 masks (not all at once, of course). Of course, this does mean each Toa of the team needs their own Suva, but it's not unreasonable to assume they had one stashed somewhere like the Great Temple in Ga-Metru. Just because Toa after 2003 didn't use more than one mask doesn't mean they couldn't.

 

So with that said, knowing what their "default" mask is useless, since you can use -any- mask for the circumstance, hence RPGs and headcanon.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I wish there was 'indifferent' option, because that is the one I would've chosen. On the one hand, it would be cool to know what masks they wore. On the other, I kind of like not knowing what masks they had and let my headcanon fill me those blanks for me. Either way, it really doesn't bother me if Kanohi are chosen for them or not. I will vote for which masks I think will be cool for them to have if polls are made for them, because I would like to have a say in them if I could. But again, it doesn't really matter to me. I have more interest in other areas of the Bionicle story. 

 

Edit: Well, I got so caught up in my original post that I forgot what topic I was posting this in. So I edited my post to better answer the poll.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Toa Smoke Monster

[Noxryn]

I would not, personally, like a fan canonization of the rest of the Toa Mangai. There is no point to it, at present, and it only takes away the creative freedom other fans may wish to have to reimagine, or simply imagine, the Mangai as they would see fit. The only people really benefited by the knowledge, at present, are people who have an urge to collect and archive every possible tidbit of trivia and information, no matter how large or how small. In my opinion, something like this is best left to the writers to decide on: it's best left to their discretion and whether they would ever wish to tell the story of the Toa Mangai, or if they would rather keep them shrouded in a sense of mystery the fans can ponder over and create their own interpretations of. Either way, fans can be quite creative and create better interpretations than the story team would create on their own, though it is a little unfair to uphold one fan interpretation as canon when there was no reason to do so. No purpose.

 

The old story is done, for now. There's no point in going back to revisit and create, canonically, things that only serve to affect the history and atmosphere of the world -- things that many fans prefer to do on their own, to have some artistic freedom to do and to create. The amount of possibilities are endless, so why not allow them to be so? Why put a period on something that has so much potential, so much variance, so many different stories that could be told and drawn? Why rip away the creative freedom people have in order to sate an insatiable knowledge for something, while at the same time forcing through a "canon" perspective not everyone may like or agree with? There really isn't a point to it.

 

A lot of people seem very passionate to have it, and while they're free to have their opinion, I'm free to disagree with that position. I, personally, feel more would be harmed story-wise than not if this was canonically done by the fans as more aspects free for fan interpretation and creative expression would be stripped away. And, after all, Lego is about imagination and creation, so why shouldn't a prior story it had stay true to such a view point? To keep some things off the record, shrouded in mystery, in unknowing, so the fans can fill in the blanks as they wish with their own creative imaginings?

[The 1st Shadow]

Having looked through this whole topic, I notice that only Swert has mentioned this one incredible fact about Kanohi that was established back on Day 1--

 

You can take them off and switch them with other Kanohi.

 

I'll elaborate on it a little more, however. And, to be clear, I am talking to everyone on BOTH sides of the argument. Lets say, for the sake of this topic, that some of the Toa Mangai switched masks to specifically combat the Kanohi Dragon, or some other set of circumstances. We'll say right now that perhaps this topic is deciding what masks they selected during those circumstances. Once we're done here, we can say,

 

"For the battle with the Kanohi Dragon, Joe the Toa of the Green, donned a Mask of Healing in order to ensure the lives of his teammates."

"During the Toa Mangai's battle with the Dark Hunters, Naho took on a Kanohi Kakama to help her get past the blockades and quickly acquire help from other lands."

 

And then, we can say,

 

"And when all that was over, they went home and put on whatever mask they'd been wearing for most of their lives."

 

Toa are not limited to one Kanohi. So, perhaps this sort of topic is just letting us look at the team from the perspective of one event. One of the Toa of Ice could have worn a Mask of Water Breathing. Why? Because that is probably what he wore as a Matoran, and he never felt a need to change it, because it was his mask. Then, when he and the others went to fight the Kanohi Dragon, he realized it would be beneficial to use a different mask with a more suitable power. The above examples make a lot of sense from a story perspective, since it lets us focus on the details of just one or two specific events in the entirety of the history of the BIONICLE Universe.

 

Does this please everyone? Because it sounds like a great idea to me. The way some of you have been going at it, one might think you're saying that the Toa Mata never needed to seek out the other masks because they each had their own individual mask that was (at the time) unique to them. Toa change masks, and I'm all for deciding that Peter the Toa of Ice wore a Kanohi Kadin for a few days during their battle with the Kanohi Dragon, and then went right back to his favorite old Kaukau and never took it off again.

 

I'm really not sure where I stand on the original question (even though I voted yes because I lean more in that direction). What I am certain of is that I am against the idea of all of you turning the S&T forums into an all out war. It's childish and unnecessary.

 

EDIT: This concept applies to their weapons, as well!

Edited December 7, 2014 by ~T1S~

[AdaptingChaos]

I was going to make Toa Mangai Mocs pretty soon.. I really dont want to paint pieces or customize my own mask for the sake of it being canon.

[The Skakdi Chronicler]

I said yes. As long as we have characters, we might as well know what they look like.

[Boidoh]

To whoever was gonna make a MOC of the Mangai - Kanohi masks can be in the shapes of other Kanohi

 

To those fanfic writers - Greg once said that every fan-fic can be treated as an alternate universe. So if you wanted the final Toa Mangai to be a Toa of Gravity, well in that AU that you're writing about, a Toa of Gravity joined rather than a Toa of the Green. Or if you wanted Mr. the Green to wear a Iden, well he could, in your AU. Nothing stops you from doing that.

 

 

It irratates me that the reason why people dislike canonizations is because they are insignificant. If they are insignificant why do they bother you?

 

I'll see you're question and raise you a question: if they're insignificant, what's the point in the first place?

 

I don't think they are insignificant. Maybe I should have used quotation marks. I'm just repeating what the other side of this argument thinks. I personally don't like to go to a BS01 page and see a ton of "unknown"s all around the place. 

[maletoaofwater]

 

With that intro, I would like to point out that a member of BZP, Boidoh, has been quite active of LMB and has managed to give BZP the gift of choosing the Kanohi of the rest of the 7 Toa Mangai.

 

actually, that was me that asked about doing that...

 

so naturally i voted yes. i don't think clarifying small story details like which toa wore which masks are in any way harmful to the story.