Krakua un Vakama's vision

[Vraiment]

In Time Trap Vakama has a vision of Krakua where the later asks Vakama to allow six matorans to depart in a travel the might die or something like that or he might not come to exist. Who was Krakua referring to? The Toa Inika? If so, why they were so important in the conversion of Krakua to a Toa? I can't find the relationship

[Boidoh]

Probably. Maybe in the future the Toa Mahri are needed for something important. Maybe someone went back in time to stop them from ever becoming Toa or something.

[ALVIS]

My original theory was that Krakua would become a Toa when one of those Toa sacrificed their power, but since Greg had Krakua become a Toa offstage before the Destiny War, that theory's shot.

 

The whole vision thing is a classic example of how Greg's "never plan anything" style was more trouble than it was worth, because Vakama didn't even have anything to do with sending the Toa Inika on their mission. Nokama was the one who told them about Voya Nui, but even she didn't expect them to actually go out and try to rescue them. None of it makes any sense in retrospect, which is probably why Greg was always opposed to introducing time travel to the story.

 

It's possible that, in this case, Vakama's vision didn't mean much of anything. Recall that he had that vision while he was trapped in one of Makuta's illusions; that might have interfered with his clairvoyance.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I believe Krakua was talking about the Toa Inika, since he says that they would have to 'walk through the fire.' Which I believe is the Chamber of Life on Voya Nui. 

 

As for Krakua saying that he might not come into existence if Vakama failed, I believe that was something not related to the Toa Inika. Upon rereading that section of Time Trap, Krakua says that if Vakama fails at his current mission (getting the Mask of Time, if I'm not mistaken) that he wouldn't come to be. Then he brings up the Toa Inika after that. So I think those two reveals are not connected.

 

I'm sure that, if the Gen 1 story continued, more light would've eventually been shed on Krakua and his 'vision' to Vakama. But the story ending put an end to that.  

[Archon~]

I think that the line regarding coming into existence might have referred to his existence as it is in the future: guarding the fortress. He could have also been hinting at the fact that if the Inika/Mahri didn't go on with their mission, the faith of the universe would have been jeopardized and he wouldn't exist because he would have possibly died during the evacuation.

Another idea is that it could have just been another one of Vakama's blurry visions; not great with detail, but outline the main jist.

[Vraiment]

Oh, it's a shame as I thought it would be a cool subplot and I was missing it. The option that sounds more accurate it seems that the vision was affected by being inside Makuta's illusion.

 

 

The whole vision thing is a classic example of how Greg's "never plan anything" style was more trouble than it was worth

 I didn't know that, I think it makes cooler the Bionicle universe?

[fishers64]

I think he was referring to the idea that if time was broken or the Shadowed One got the Vahi, Krakua would not exist. If either faction got the Vahi, I think they would get enough control over the universe to stop the action by the Order that made Krakua a Toa. 

[Dorek]

The Toa he was referring to were the Inika, but the whole "guarding the fortress bit" technically has yet to happen, despite a solid case having been made for him to do it during the Metru Nui siege in Destiny War.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

It's a good point. What did the Toa Inika have to do with his or Vakama's destiny?

 

And just to add to this, why does Toa Krakua exist in the Toa Empire alternate Universe?

 

-NotS

[Toa Smoke Monster]

It's a good point. What did the Toa Inika have to do with his or Vakama's destiny?

 

And just to add to this, why does Toa Krakua exist in the Toa Empire alternate Universe?

 

-NotS

1. I personally think Krakua mentioning the Toa Inika to Vakama was just a teaser in Time Trap for the Voya Nui story that next year. It was something for fans to speculate on until it was revealed in 2006. I could be wrong on that though.

 

2. Since it is an alternate universe, there could be a number of ways for Krakua to exist in it. It's anyone's guess how he became a Toa in that universe.

[ALVIS]

 

It's a good point. What did the Toa Inika have to do with his or Vakama's destiny?

 

And just to add to this, why does Toa Krakua exist in the Toa Empire alternate Universe?

 

-NotS

1. I personally think Krakua mentioning the Toa Inika to Vakama was just a teaser in Time Trap for the Voya Nui story that next year. It was something for fans to speculate on until it was revealed in 2006. I could be wrong on that though.

 

2. Since it is an alternate universe, there could be a number of ways for Krakua to exist in it. It's anyone's guess how he became a Toa in that universe.

 

 

Yes, but if you're going to put a teaser in official media, it should at least make sense in the context of the story!

[Boidoh]

I think it is something like when Brutaka kept babbling on about the three that must become one and stuff like that or in 2006 when the Voya Nui Matoran were talking about the fragment that broke off and they throw gifts below every month or something.

[Quisoves Potoo]

The whole vision thing is a classic example of how Greg's "never plan anything" style was more trouble than it was worth, because Vakama didn't even have anything to do with sending the Toa Inika on their mission. Nokama was the one who told them about Voya Nui, but even she didn't expect them to actually go out and try to rescue them. None of it makes any sense in retrospect, which is probably why Greg was always opposed to introducing time travel to the story.

To be fair, it is possible that when he wrote Time Trap, Vakama was planned to be the one to send the Inika. Greg may not have been one for planning when it came to world-building, but I think he wouldn't have simply assumed that Vakama would send them on their mission without any confirmation on the matter.

 

Another question that occurs to me is why Krakua saw fit to tell Vakama of his apparent future. Obviously the vision was intended as both a way to incorporate a contest-winner and tease the next year's story, but from a narrative-perspective, one has to wonder. Perhaps Krakua was actually hoping to change the past? Makuta interrupted the vision, after all. Maybe Krakua, if he had been able to continue, would have said something to the effect of "And make sure the Ice Toa freezes a certain underwater jail-robot in a very secluded place."

[Collector1]

The Toa he was referring to were the Inika, but the whole "guarding the fortress bit" technically has yet to happen, despite a solid case having been made for him to do it during the Metru Nui siege in Destiny War.

What if the fortress future Krakau was referring to was the fortress of the Golden Skinned Being? That's the only one I know of that exists in the future. 

[Quisoves Potoo]

 

The Toa he was referring to were the Inika, but the whole "guarding the fortress bit" technically has yet to happen, despite a solid case having been made for him to do it during the Metru Nui siege in Destiny War.

What if the fortress future Krakau was referring to was the fortress of the Golden Skinned Being? That's the only one I know of that exists in the future. 

 

That fortress wasn't an island, the last we saw of it, though it could have been reformed that way, I suppose. That said, there is no particular reason why it should be that fortress. It could be any number of fortresses in the BIONICLE universe.

 

A thought occurred to me about the heroes Krakua mentioned. Could they be the Toa Nuva? Granted, Dume was the one who summoned them initially in Island of Doom, but Vakama could be said to have had a part in sending them to Voya Nui, no? If we ignore the Word of Greg, and assume that Krakua made contact with Vakama during the Siege of Metru Nui, then mention of them makes more sense than the Mahri, given their mission in Karda Nui. "Walk through the fire" could be a reference to the energy storms which Krakua knew would erupt when their task was complete.

[Dorek]

 

 

The Toa he was referring to were the Inika, but the whole "guarding the fortress bit" technically has yet to happen, despite a solid case having been made for him to do it during the Metru Nui siege in Destiny War.

What if the fortress future Krakau was referring to was the fortress of the Golden Skinned Being? That's the only one I know of that exists in the future.

 

That fortress wasn't an island, the last we saw of it, though it could have been reformed that way, I suppose. That said, there is no particular reason why it should be that fortress. It could be any number of fortresses in the BIONICLE universe.

 

A thought occurred to me about the heroes Krakua mentioned. Could they be the Toa Nuva? Granted, Dume was the one who summoned them initially in Island of Doom, but Vakama could be said to have had a part in sending them to Voya Nui, no? If we ignore the Word of Greg, and assume that Krakua made contact with Vakama during the Siege of Metru Nui, then mention of them makes more sense than the Mahri, given their mission in Karda Nui. "Walk through the fire" could be a reference to the energy storms which Krakua knew would erupt when their task was complete.

 

(As much as I dislike the term "word of Greg", it's especially out of place here; he told us what the intent was when he wrote it)

 

I suppose you could draw the parallels, but the Toa he was referring to were definitely the Inika, that was always part of the plan. I actually enjoyed how the Toa Nuva are seemingly going to be the heroes of the story, only to be unceremoniously defeated and paved over for the Inika.

[unknown456]

So out of curiosity/ clarification purposes, can someone who has Time Trap post the relevant section(s) from the story? 

Edited December 14, 2014 by unknown456

[Quisoves Potoo]

(As much as I dislike the term "word of Greg", it's especially out of place here; he told us what the intent was when he wrote it)

 

I suppose you could draw the parallels, but the Toa he was referring to were definitely the Inika, that was always part of the plan. I actually enjoyed how the Toa Nuva are seemingly going to be the heroes of the story, only to be unceremoniously defeated and paved over for the Inika.

 

Out of place? By "Word of Greg," I am including things such as him clarifying his intent. My point is that although he intended for the Toa to be the Inika, there is nothing in the actual story to suggest this. Despite authorial intent, the heroes Krakua describes are not, given the version of events that we have, the Inika. Is it possible that Krakua was attempting to change history by lying to Vakama? Of course. Ditto his interaction with Vakama changing history to the version seen in Island of Doom. But going strictly by authorial intent simply does not work, in this case.

[Dorek]

The term "word of Greg" is fairly new, and more relates to his arbitration on the canon as it exists now. It's not like he wrote an open-ended scene and then ascribed a meaning to it later; it had a point when it was written, and by all accounts should still have the same point now.

 

Honestly, if we're trying to change the actual meaning of the books at this point, I think we're pretty far gone as a fanbase.

[Quisoves Potoo]

The term "word of Greg" is fairly new, and more relates to his arbitration on the canon as it exists now. It's not like he wrote an open-ended scene and then ascribed a meaning to it later; it had a point when it was written, and by all accounts should still have the same point now.

As I said before, I was using it to refer to both his authorial fiats and clarifications. I was unaware that the term had a more specific meaning.

 

Honestly, if we're trying to change the actual meaning of the books at this point, I think we're pretty far gone as a fanbase.

The problem is that the meaning of the Krakua scene is seemingly at odds with the rest of BIONICLE canon. I am simply trying to make sense of it.

Besides, what's so new about fans trying to resolve continuity errors?

[Dorek]

 

Honestly, if we're trying to change the actual meaning of the books at this point, I think we're pretty far gone as a fanbase.

The problem is that the meaning of the Krakua scene is seemingly at odds with the rest of BIONICLE canon. I am simply trying to make sense of it.

Besides, what's so new about fans trying to resolve continuity errors?

 

Not sure quite how it's at odds?

 

 

They will brave the lightning ... they will walk through the fire ... they will stare into the eyes of evil ... and if they waver even once, they will die.

Granted, it's pretty generic, but the lightning obviously refers to the Inika, and the walking through fire jives with the whole "Ignition" sub-branding. Edited December 14, 2014 by Dorek

[Quisoves Potoo]

Not sure quite how it's at odds?'

Krakua tells Vakama that he will send the heroes on their quest, knowing that they may never return. In Island of Doom, the Inika-to-be are not sent by Vakama. They leave of their own accord once Nokama, in defiance of the other Turagas' wishes, tells them the truth about Mata Nui's health.

 

 

They will brave the lightning ... they will walk through the fire ... they will stare into the eyes of evil ... and if they waver even once, they will die.

Granted, it's pretty generic, but the lightning obviously refers to the Inika, and the walking through fire jives with the whole "Ignition" sub-branding.

It's obviously supposed to be a reference to the Inika, but it also works nicely for the Nuva, given the fire and lightning of the energy storm.

[Zeb]

 

Not sure quite how it's at odds?'

Krakua tells Vakama that he will send the heroes on their quest, knowing that they may never return. In Island of Doom, the Inika-to-be are not sent by Vakama. They leave of their own accord once Nokama, in defiance of the other Turagas' wishes, tells them the truth about Mata Nui's health.

 

 

They will brave the lightning ... they will walk through the fire ... they will stare into the eyes of evil ... and if they waver even once, they will die.

Granted, it's pretty generic, but the lightning obviously refers to the Inika, and the walking through fire jives with the whole "Ignition" sub-branding.

It's obviously supposed to be a reference to the Inika, but it also works nicely for the Nuva, given the fire and lightning of the energy storm.

 

What if Krakua was talking about BOTH? What if it was a double message with 2 meanings?

[Quisoves Potoo]

What if Krakua was talking about BOTH? What if it was a double message with 2 meanings?

It rather depends on how he was hoping to change history. Though I find it odd that he'd be so cryptic.

[Regitnui]

When you're sending messages back in time, you're practically obligated to be cryptic to stop your past being changed, and therefore your present. 

[Quisoves Potoo]

When you're sending messages back in time, you're practically obligated to be cryptic to stop your past being changed, and therefore your present. 

But if you're sending a message back in time, for a sane, serious reason, then you must have one of two motivations: Changing history, or preserving a closed loop (in which case history has already been changed, and you are simply maintaining the changes.) In fact, Krakua even states that Vakama's success may come at the cost of him never existing.

[fishers64]

I'm pretty sure the message was about Vakama's showdown between Vakama and Teridax later in that book:
 

I have a theory about this. (It's sort of based on Orson Scott Card's Pathfinder series, so if you've read that it will make a bit more sense.)
 
My theory is that there is a future where Krakua did not deliver his message to Vakama. If you'll recall, it was Krakua's message that inspired Vakama to risk destroying the Vahi in that confrontation with Makuta, and it told Vakama that he was going to have to send the Nuva and the Inika on their way, and "wait and hope."
 
This means that there is a future in which Vakama did NOT risk destroying the Vahi, but instead fled Metru Nui with the Vahi in terror or whatever he did. In THAT future, Toa Krakua ended up defending an island fortress somewhere (maybe on Mata Nui?) and realized that he was in trouble, and that all of his current problems and inevitable disaster was caused by that one moment between Vakama and Makuta. So he sent the message to Vakama, in that past. 
 
Now, there is a reality where Vakama received the message. This message is sent from his future, his future that would have been if he had NOT received the message, but now that he has received the message, the future changes so that message is never sent. There is no island fortress and no Krakua defending it because the future has changed so those things don't exist or happen. 
 
Does that make sense?

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Makes sense... but then why would Krakua happen to know that pivotal moment was caused by a slight hesitation on Vakama's part almost 1000 years earlier?

 

-NotS

[Collector1]

Makes sense... but then why would Krakua happen to know that pivotal moment was caused by a slight hesitation on Vakama's part almost 1000 years earlier?

 

-NotS

Well, there is the Olisi, the mask of alternate futures. Maybe Krakua got a hold of this mask? I know that Karzahni is murdered in the future but since we're assuming that the Future Krakua is from an alternate universe you can never know what makes this future different than the core one. 

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

 

Makes sense... but then why would Krakua happen to know that pivotal moment was caused by a slight hesitation on Vakama's part almost 1000 years earlier?

 

-NotS

Well, there is the Olisi, the mask of alternate futures. Maybe Krakua got a hold of this mask? I know that Karzahni is murdered in the future but since we're assuming that the Future Krakua is from an alternate universe you can never know what makes this future different than the core one. 

 

Would it get that specific though? I thought the Olisi only showed an alternate future based on the events the individual has been through (that's what it seemed at least, throughout its uses in the story)

 

-NotS

Edited December 16, 2014 by Nidhiki of the Shadows

[Collector1]

 

 

Makes sense... but then why would Krakua happen to know that pivotal moment was caused by a slight hesitation on Vakama's part almost 1000 years earlier?

 

-NotS

Well, there is the Olisi, the mask of alternate futures. Maybe Krakua got a hold of this mask? I know that Karzahni is murdered in the future but since we're assuming that the Future Krakua is from an alternate universe you can never know what makes this future different than the core one. 

 

Would it get that specific though? I thought the Olisi only showed an alternate future based on the events the individual has been through (that's what it seemed at least, throughout its uses in the story)

 

-NotS

 

I don't think it was ever stated how specific the possible futures could be. I might need to look through the old novels and story serials again. 

[Quisoves Potoo]

 

I'm pretty sure the message was about Vakama's showdown between Vakama and Teridax later in that book:

 

I have a theory about this. (It's sort of based on Orson Scott Card's Pathfinder series, so if you've read that it will make a bit more sense.)

 

My theory is that there is a future where Krakua did not deliver his message to Vakama. If you'll recall, it was Krakua's message that inspired Vakama to risk destroying the Vahi in that confrontation with Makuta, and it told Vakama that he was going to have to send the Nuva and the Inika on their way, and "wait and hope."

 

This means that there is a future in which Vakama did NOT risk destroying the Vahi, but instead fled Metru Nui with the Vahi in terror or whatever he did. In THAT future, Toa Krakua ended up defending an island fortress somewhere (maybe on Mata Nui?) and realized that he was in trouble, and that all of his current problems and inevitable disaster was caused by that one moment between Vakama and Makuta. So he sent the message to Vakama, in that past. 

 

Now, there is a reality where Vakama received the message. This message is sent from his future, his future that would have been if he had NOT received the message, but now that he has received the message, the future changes so that message is never sent. There is no island fortress and no Krakua defending it because the future has changed so those things don't exist or happen. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

It is also worth noting that there is one other tangible effect of Krakua's message:

 

Jaller looked around. In his days as captain of the Ta-Koro Guard, he had learned a thing or two about battle strategy. A quick glance was enough to tell him that the Order had badly underestimated the ferocity of the Makuta attack. The Rahkshi had already gained the tops of the walls in three or four places, and in one southern section, had made it inside the walls as well. As he watched, the defenders of the wall fell back, and the invaders began pouring through.

"We need an edge," said Jaller. "Something the Rahkshi wouldn't expect."

"There are more Toa coming, but they won't get here in time," said Vakama. "But there might be one Toa here now who could help us. Listen well…"

It was Hahli who found the Toa in question, a Toa of Sonics named Krakua. When he heard Vakama's plan, he looked at her as if she had lost her mind."

"Let me get this straight," he said while blasting Rahkshi with sonic beams. "Vakama wants me to cycle through multiple frequencies until I find the one that will awaken something called the Bohrok?"

 

Perhaps in the original timeline, Vakama, not knowing of Krakua, never formulated his plan, and Metru Nui fell to the Brotherhood's onslaught (which, while intended primarily as a distraction, was not designed to automatically fail.) Krakua sent his message, and Vakama, because he knew of him in the new timeline, formulated his plan.

[fishers64]

But the message refers specifically to events that could lead to Krakua not existing, however, so he thought he needed to include both information about the Toa Inika and the Mask of Time. We don't see either of those reasons occur in the main story. If Vakama breaks time, Krakua doesn't exist, if Makuta gets the Vahi, Krakua probably doesn't exist. 

 

So it's entirely possible that the plan was a side effect of the message that wasn't intended by Krakua. It's possible that someone would have thought of some other solution, or the Order might have thought of the solution that was used. Also keep in mind that Vakama might have had the chance to see Krakua "around" during the battle - a cryptic message from the future doesn't tell him that this Toa exists NOW. So he would have had to have had more information...and knowing that Krakua exists now and has a means to raise the Bohrok could happen to Vakama even if he never saw the vision of Krakua in the past. It's actually independent of each other.