Real-life physics in Bionicle

[Toa Of Virtues]

Time and time again, we have heard Greg say how real-life physics do not apply to the world of Bionicle, but what if they did? What would the real-life implications be of controlling things like light, gravity, or even time? Can it even be done?

 

Basically, ask a question about a power or event in Bionicle, and I (or anyone else who would like to join in) will explain why it is or isn't possible. Think of this as the Mythbusters for Bionicle. Be warned, though, there will be a LOT of heavy science here.

 

 

To start off, let's talk about one of Umbra's powers.

 

Umbra has the ability to turn himself into a beam of light, is this even possible? Actually, it is. Thanks to Einstein's famous equation E=mc^2, matter can freely turn into energy. The way this is done in real life is by making a piece of matter touch a piece of antimatter. The two cancel each other out, and all that's left is energy in the form of light. Although Umbra doesn't seem to be carrying around a large sack of antimatter with him, we can give that to advanced technology. The real trouble comes when he is a beam of light.

 

Einstein (again, smart guy) says that anything traveling at the speed of light can not experience time. For a particle of light (a photon), its entire journey would be happening all at once. If we were to look at light-beam Umbra, we would see him frozen in a single moment of time, so he would have no control over the light. He would have to plan out his entire journey, start to finish, before he turned into light by aiming himself in just the right direction. Not that efficient in battle, but still possible. Given that he has successfully turned himself into a beam of light and aimed himself in the right direction, he now has to turn back, and this is the tricky part.

 

Although light can turn back into matter, it's very difficult. There is a machine called the photon-photon collider that can actually do this by shining two very powerful beams of light at each other. If any of the photons collide, it will create a piece of matter and antimatter. So if Umbra wanted to turn back into his old self, he would have to fire himself into a very, VERY advanced version of this machine.

 

So in all, Umbra's power to turn himself into light and back again is technically possible, but very difficult. Although taking a small piece of matter, turning it into a beam of light, and turning it back again can and has been done, doing that for something the size of Umbra is near impossible. Still, who knows what technology the Great Beings have?

[-Windrider-]

S&Tee time.

[ALVIS]

I like it. Now try to explain Nuhvok-Kal.

[Toa Borox]

Explain Makuta's powers in general, lol.

[Toa Of Virtues]

Explain Makuta's powers in general, lol.

Well, he has 47, so which one do you want to start with?

 

 

I like it. Now try to explain Nuhvok-Kal.

Oooh, gravity control! This one might take a while. I'll try to write it up tomorrow.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, so is this a XKCD: What If? sorta thing? Because this sounds like a lot of fun.

Do you think you can explain how Lehvak-Kal's vacuum powers overloading could cause it to rocket into space and how that would have to happen for it to end up in a stable low orbit? This has been nagging me for a decade. I'd like to see some numbers

Edited December 18, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Toa Of Virtues]

Oh, so is this a XKCD: What If? sorta thing? Because this sounds like a lot of fun.

 

Do you think you can explain how Lehvak-Kal's vacuum powers overloading could cause it to rocket into space and how that would have to happen for it to end up in a stable low orbit? This has been nagging me for a decade. I'd like to see some numbers

This one should be pretty simple, using only classical physics. I'll have to estimate a few of the numbers, though.

[Letagi]

Mind if I give Nuhvok-Kal a try?

 

Gravity can be explained as objects falling into "folds" in space. These folds occur wherever an object with mass is present (i.e. an object made of particles with Higgs interactions). Nuhvok-Kal and any other beings with the same or similar powers might control gravity by messing with the local Higgs field, thereby increasing the number of Higgs bosons created via interactions. How he does that I'm not sure, but that might be the mechanism.

 

This might be part of the explanation for control over time, since time moves slower near gravitational sources. But the problem would be the gravity variations and tidal forces that result from folding space. We've never seen any gravitational effects from the Vahi though. Maybe the gravitational and tidal forces are concentrated at the boundary between normal time and altered time.

 

How about mask powers?

 

-Letagi

Edited December 18, 2014 by Letagi

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

This might be part of the explanation for control over time, since time moves slower near gravitational sources. But the problem would be the gravity variations and tidal forces that result from folding space. We've never seen any gravitational effects from the Vahi though. Maybe the gravitational and tidal forces are concentrated at the boundary between normal time and altered time.

 

How about mask powers?

 

-Letagi

 

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I do know that, like you said, time moves slower around objects with a greater gravity.  

 

That being said, might the opposite be true?  That objects with less gravity move through time faster?  

 

If that is the case, then the Vahi may actually be able to increase or decrease gravity, therefore making those under its effect perceive time as faster or slower (eventually until time stops or they reach the speed of light, at which point time is so fast it also stops, basically)  The only problem with this theory is that people would begin to float away under the effects of the Vahi, which we never see. 

[Akavakaku]

If Umbra converted his entire mass to light, wouldn't that be enough light to completely blast open the 777 steps? If he weighs, let's estimate, 500 kg (he's like 2-3 m tall and made of metal so it's not too unlikely) he'd become 45,000,000 terajoules of light, which is 100 times the maximum possible strength of the most powerful nuclear weapon ever tested. My hypothesis: He only instantaneously reaches lightspeed, in other words, for no time at all, and therefore is back to a baryonic state before he'd destroy anything. The difference in travel time is negligible since he's going such a short distance.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Akavakaku

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

So basically he would just phase in and out of existence, with maybe a bright flash accompanying it?  Since he travels so fast, you would not see a beam of light moving around, but rather a burst of light and then boom, Umbra is suddenly in a different spot.  

[Letagi]

The problem there is that, no matter how short the distance is, it still requires some time to traverse. He has to be at lightspeed for some tiny amount of time in order to get anywhere, since the speed of light is finite. It can't be truly instantaneous.

 

-Letagi

[Mjolnitor]

Widespread misconception: Bionicle powers can be explained with science.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Mjolnitor

[Toa Of Virtues]

I just ran the numbers for the Lehvak-kal problem. If he created an entire vacumn above his head and angled himself at 45 degrees, he would leave the atmosphere at about 32783 meters per second, which would actually throw him away from the planet entirely. However, he didn't have to use a pure vacumn, which would decrease his exit speed allowing him to fall in orbit. But there is no doubt that Lehvak kal has the ability to shoot himself into orbit.

 

I love the Higgs explanation, but you could give a target more mass just by giving them energy. If you give a target 90 megajoules of energy in any way, their mass will increase by 1 microgram.

Edited December 18, 2014 by TuragaOfVirtues

[bioniclepluslotr]

*sees science*

kthnxbai

[Toa Of Virtues]

*sees science*

kthnxbai

I warned you! Lol

[Letagi]

Widespread misconception: Bionicle powers can be explained with science.

What's the harm in having some fun with it? Besides, we're showing that a lot of those powers can be explained with science.

 

I just ran the numbers for the Lehvak-kal problem. If he created an entire vacumn above his head and angled himself at 45 degrees, he would leave the atmosphere at about 32783 meters per second, which would actually throw him away from the planet entirely. However, he didn't have to use a pure vacumn, which would decrease his exit speed allowing him to fall in orbit. But there is no doubt that Lehvak kal has the ability to shoot himself into orbit.

 

I love the Higgs explanation, but you could give a target more mass just by giving them energy. If you give a target 90 megajoules of energy in any way, their mass will increase by 1 microgram.

Why would he need to angle himself? If he's in a vacuum it shouldn't matter.

 

90 megajoules is a lot of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Creating artificial Higgs interactions might be trickier to explain, but probably wouldn't use so much energy.

 

The other idea I had was to increase graviton interactions. That way, you could increase the gravitational attraction between two very specific objects without affecting anything else, which I'm pretty sure is something a Toa of Gravity can do in the story.

 

-Letagi

[Regitnui]

The problem there is that, no matter how short the distance is, it still requires some time to traverse. He has to be at lightspeed for some tiny amount of time in order to get anywhere, since the speed of light is finite. It can't be truly instantaneous.

 

-Letagi

For any visible distance (i.e. you can see both the start and endpoints of his movement) c is fast enough that it will seem instantaneous. Standing on a flat plain you can see for roughly 12km in any direction. C is 1,080 million km/hr. so 24km (horizon to horizon past the viewer) is just on two seconds. (I think).

[Letagi]

The point is that despite only needing to exist as light for a tiny duration, the fact that there's any amount of time involved at all will mean that there's time for a massive amount of energy to be released. Umbra would need to transition from a baryonic state to a photonic state and back in zero time in order to avoid a release of energy.

 

But if that were the case, he wouldn't be able to travel any distance, because he can't use up any time to traverse that distance.

 

-Letagi

[Regitnui]

So Umbra in real-life physics is a walking matter-antimatter bomb. He should have annihilated most of the southern continent the first time he defended the ignika.

[Letagi]

If his travel time is anything more than instantaneous, which it has to be for this particular explanation, then yes.

 

-Letagi

[Toa Of Virtues]

Well, he had to be at an angle or else he always fly away or get pulled back to the planet. There must be some horizontal velocity or he will just be going straight up and down.

 

Messing with gravitonal interactions is tricky and entirely theoretical. We dont even know if gravitons are real or not, so its not that fun theorizing about that.

 

And for umbra, i imagined his light form would be a laser. If he just turned into a ball of light, no doubt he would roast the planet, but if he was a laser all that energy would be focused. Granted, it would still be difficult to deal with, but better than an explosion.

Edited December 18, 2014 by TuragaOfVirtues

[Boidoh]

 

Do you think you can explain how Lehvak-Kal's vacuum powers overloading could cause it to rocket into space and how that would have to happen for it to end up in a stable low orbit? This has been nagging me for a decade. I'd like to see some numbers

My friend and I tried to do that once.

 

What I REALLY want to know, is how he stayed in that orbit for over a year, and how he is still orbiting SM.

[Toa Of Virtues]

Well, staying in orbit doesnt defy any physics, its just very unlikely. As for Spherus Magna, it's even more of a stretch but it is still possible if he got shot at it with the right angle and velocity.

[Regitnui]

Personally, I'm wondering if the Krana-Kal piloting Lehvak-Kal has died or if it's really bored.

[Boidoh]

I think it launched itself out before the body going into space.

[Toa Of Virtues]

This topic is going much better than what I would have expected! Does anyone want to tackle Umbra's solid-light powers? I can think of 20 reasons why it would be impossible, but any theories?

[LegoSWfan]

Personally, I think Lego relied too much on Greg to say what is canon and what isn't. I'm honestly glad he's gone. In my opinion.

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

The entire story wouldn't happen because Mata Nui would collapse under its own weight before it was even 1% finished.

 

Also note that lumps of metal shaped like faces do not grant cyborgs magical powers within any real-life physics.

[Regitnui]

Are we even sure protodermis is metallic? Perhaps it's a polymer, or a clay.

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

Looking at the way it can imitate water, minerals, metals, organic compounds to the point of functional tissue and plant matter, I'd say protodermis is a clear case of unobtainium with a case of "does what the writer feels like it should do"

[Mailli]

Looking at the way it can imitate water, minerals, metals, organic compounds to the point of functional tissue and plant matter, I'd say protodermis is a clear case of unobtainium with a case of "does what the writer feels like it should do"

Maybe protodermis is an element, but can easily change it's protons, electrons, etc. and therefore its electronegativity, intermolecular forces, etc. with ease, allowing it to take on almost any form.

A bit of a leap, but it could work.

[Owlexander]

lolnope.jpg

[Iblis]

Maybe protodermis is an element, but can easily change it's protons, electrons, etc. and therefore its electronegativity, intermolecular forces, etc. with ease, allowing it to take on almost any form.

A bit of a leap, but it could work.

 

Maybe, but considering that human science hasn't yet explained everything, there ""might"" be a plausible scientific answer for aspects of Bionicle but it's not entirely impossible that there is an invisible elephant-like thing right behind you right now & it reads everything on the internet as it is uploaded... but exploiting-gaps...

 

Protodermis might have technically not be impossible but how would it change it's defining feautures in a consistent enough method for it to do all the things it does? Sure if you take into account that it's got some sort of coding but this is one of a huge class of questions which that sort of answer opens. It's a Non-Answer; sure it's an answer but it raises so many questions one might dare call it a Voodoo Shark if it was presented as a serious & final answer, & not such a minor point. So maybe a moon-leap?

 

It's actually kind of not-easy to find something that can't be wiggled out of in some way *cough*_{^{alternate_physics}}*cough* that isn't just a non-sequitor or includes a premise already at odds with whatever extrapolation system being used (beyond logic itself) that isn't a non-sequitor or create a plethora of jarring questions if the hand-wave didn't work...

 

Nice thought though, it 'could' work in a sense & under some methods.

[Letagi]

Just to add, I'm pretty sure Greg said at some point that protodermis is a molecule. So its bizarre properties could be explainable with conventional science.

 

Bonesiii came up with a neat explanation, which he uses here.

 

-Letagi

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

 

Looking at the way it can imitate water, minerals, metals, organic compounds to the point of functional tissue and plant matter, I'd say protodermis is a clear case of unobtainium with a case of "does what the writer feels like it should do"

Maybe protodermis is an element, but can easily change it's protons, electrons, etc. and therefore its electronegativity, intermolecular forces, etc. with ease, allowing it to take on almost any form.

A bit of a leap, but it could work.

 

 

Well all elements can change states.  Protodermis, like all other elements, has a solid state, a liquid state, and presumably a gas state.  However, while atoms regularly gain and lose electrons, protons cannot be lost or gained without changing the element to a completely different one.  (Hydrogen has only one proton, if it were to somehow gain a proton, it would become Helium).  

 

The fact that it can be shaped into any form is not really a problem, since liquid protodermis is just poured into molds and solidifies to that shape (i.e maskmaking) 

 

As for electronegativity, protodermis would simply have to be an element that has a charge in its most stable ion/isotope, either positive or negative.  This can be changed simply by gaining or losing electrons, which, as I stated before, is a natural and common process.  

Edited December 19, 2014 by Spicy Salmon Samurai

[Mailli]

 

 

Looking at the way it can imitate water, minerals, metals, organic compounds to the point of functional tissue and plant matter, I'd say protodermis is a clear case of unobtainium with a case of "does what the writer feels like it should do"

Maybe protodermis is an element, but can easily change it's protons, electrons, etc. and therefore its electronegativity, intermolecular forces, etc. with ease, allowing it to take on almost any form.

A bit of a leap, but it could work.

 

 

Well all elements can change states.  Protodermis, like all other elements, has a solid state, a liquid state, and presumably a gas state.  However, while atoms regularly gain and lose electrons, protons cannot be lost or gained without changing the element to a completely different one.  (Hydrogen has only one proton, if it were to somehow gain a proton, it would become Helium).  

 

The fact that it can be shaped into any form is not really a problem, since liquid protodermis is just poured into molds and solidifies to that shape (i.e maskmaking) 

 

As for electronegativity, protodermis would simply have to be an element that has a charge in its most stable ion/isotope, either positive or negative.  This can be changed simply by gaining or losing electrons, which, as I stated before, is a natural and common process.  

 

It's certainly (theoretically) possible (except for energised protodermis), it's just we haven't seen any real substance that behaves like it.

My point with the protons thing is that maybe proton removal or addition is easier than in our universe, and so under our definition of an element, protodermis can change element, which is how it constitutes everything in the MU.

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

 

 

Looking at the way it can imitate water, minerals, metals, organic compounds to the point of functional tissue and plant matter, I'd say protodermis is a clear case of unobtainium with a case of "does what the writer feels like it should do"

Maybe protodermis is an element, but can easily change it's protons, electrons, etc. and therefore its electronegativity, intermolecular forces, etc. with ease, allowing it to take on almost any form.

A bit of a leap, but it could work.

 

 

Well all elements can change states.  Protodermis, like all other elements, has a solid state, a liquid state, and presumably a gas state.  However, while atoms regularly gain and lose electrons, protons cannot be lost or gained without changing the element to a completely different one.  (Hydrogen has only one proton, if it were to somehow gain a proton, it would become Helium).  

 

The fact that it can be shaped into any form is not really a problem, since liquid protodermis is just poured into molds and solidifies to that shape (i.e maskmaking) 

 

As for electronegativity, protodermis would simply have to be an element that has a charge in its most stable ion/isotope, either positive or negative.  This can be changed simply by gaining or losing electrons, which, as I stated before, is a natural and common process.  

 

I'd argue protodermis is a bit more complicated than just having a solid, liquid and a gas state seeing as it has multiple distinct solid AND liquid states. The water around Metru Nui and the lava-like molten metal in Metru Nui? Same stuff. The molten protodermis by the way? Being held in giant cups. Made of protodermis. So that's more than one solid state too.

 

It's Imitation Everything: The Substance.

[abstractAgamid]

One thing I've thought about: you know how if you were intangible in real life, you would go straight throuh the planet, since gravity would have no effect on you? Well, one would assume the Mata Nui robot has some special gravity fields, so maybe that could provide an explanation to intangibility powers. (It still wouldn't explain how they could still breathe, I think)

 

I'd also like to hear one for Magnetism powers.

 

Or the Tunneler (the lizard Rahi that transformed into anything it was hit with).

[bonesiii]

One thing I've thought about: you know how if you were intangible in real life, you would go straight throuh the planet, since gravity would have no effect on you? Well, one would assume the Mata Nui robot has some special gravity fields, so maybe that could provide an explanation to intangibility powers.

Not sure if this answer will be in the vein the topic starter has in mind, as I'm not limiting this to real-world known physics, but for most stories with intangibility, it's much more reasonable that something in the power itself is selective about what you go through. That especially works for Bionicle where the powers are programmed. Another option some variants have is that thicker objects can't be passed through, or not very far, so the ground is too thick, but a wall could work.

 

Appealing to a special gravity field that stops at the floor may work in some stories, like with "gravity plating" in Star Trek, though. Wouldn't work for the Matoran Universe though; while the gravity field does have a 'floor', that is well beneath the Silver Sea and probably everything else inside the giant robot, so you'd basically sink to the hull of the back.

 

(It still wouldn't explain how they could still breathe, I think)

For Bionicle, the power's instructions being intelligently selective works. For most others, probably some kind of a particle size natural selectivity.

 

Most of this is pretty much impossible at least with current real-world tech or tech we have any real idea how to make in the future. To make intangibility work, you'd really have to have an incredibly powerful and super-detailed forcefield limiting the lines of connective force energy to point right at each atom, rather than radiate in all directions, for both the wall and the user, and this would have to be accurate for pretty much every single atom in question. Even if such a thing were possible it would probably take a power source on the level of antimatter reactors (or more), and problems would probably arise from containing antimatter when you're intangible... you'd probably blow up the planet on your first attempt.

 

In short: In real life, try doors.