Jump to content

Is Tahu Start still Nuva?


Recommended Posts

Back when the Stars line came out what I understood that happened to Tahu is that the Ignika "denuvafied" Tahu so he could wield the golden armor. But recently I read somewhere that his adaptive armor changed so he could use the golden armor, but if that's the case there is no reason for Tahu to be outraged when the Ignika changed how he looked... I'm confused, was Tahu still Nuva (improved elemental powers, Nuva mask and adaptive armor) after the Ignika converted him to his Nuva form or not?

Came for the sets, stayed for the story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

  • Upvote 1

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

That's a confusing way to put it. As I understand it, he only has those powers when he's wearing the armor. He himself didn't gain any new powers, so he's not a hybrid of any sort, it's just the armor giving him those powers.

  • Upvote 1

AXKP5KC.png


 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But recently I read somewhere that his adaptive armor changed so he could use the golden armor

I don't recall that, but mightn't it just be talking about the adaptive armor changing shape so the golden armor would fit, physically?

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

That's a confusing way to put it. As I understand it, he only has those powers when he's wearing the armor. He himself didn't gain any new powers, so he's not a hybrid of any sort, it's just the armor giving him those powers.

 

That's what I meant. He has almost all the powers of a Makuta, something you can't say for anyone else except Brutaka. Nothing confusing about it. And, yes, the armor gave him the power. The armor itself was a channel, sucking the life and power out of the kraata, and feeding it back into its wearer--Tahu.

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

That's a confusing way to put it. As I understand it, he only has those powers when he's wearing the armor. He himself didn't gain any new powers, so he's not a hybrid of any sort, it's just the armor giving him those powers.

 

That's what I meant. He has almost all the powers of a Makuta, something you can't say for anyone else except Brutaka. Nothing confusing about it. And, yes, the armor gave him the power. The armor itself was a channel, sucking the life and power out of the kraata, and feeding it back into its wearer--Tahu.

 

It was the "turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid" line that I think could be confusing, it's just sort of a weird way to put it.

AXKP5KC.png


 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

But recently I read somewhere that his adaptive armor changed so he could use the golden armor

I don't recall that, but mightn't it just be talking about the adaptive armor changing shape so the golden armor would fit, physically?

 

Yeah, that I meant

 

 

 

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

That's a confusing way to put it. As I understand it, he only has those powers when he's wearing the armor. He himself didn't gain any new powers, so he's not a hybrid of any sort, it's just the armor giving him those powers.

 

Wasn't the armor supposed to be a "one-shot-thing"?

Came for the sets, stayed for the story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

That's a confusing way to put it. As I understand it, he only has those powers when he's wearing the armor. He himself didn't gain any new powers, so he's not a hybrid of any sort, it's just the armor giving him those powers.

 

Wasn't the armor supposed to be a "one-shot-thing"?

 

Well, yes. It destroyed all the Rahkshi and kraata, and then fed their power back into Tahu. The armor is now just that--armor. The power is in him.

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

That's a confusing way to put it. As I understand it, he only has those powers when he's wearing the armor. He himself didn't gain any new powers, so he's not a hybrid of any sort, it's just the armor giving him those powers.

 

Wasn't the armor supposed to be a "one-shot-thing"?

 

Well, yes. It destroyed all the Rahkshi and kraata, and then fed their power back into Tahu. The armor is now just that--armor. The power is in him.

 

What? No, man, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. That's the armor that allows him to use those powers. The power is not his, it's the armor.

AXKP5KC.png


 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must say, being the only one of the six who's been de-Nuva-nated could lead to some fascinating story possibilities as far as intrateam relationships are concerned...

 

Is he in permanent possession of the armor now, or was that a one-time thing?

15863836330_7c7ce4fb30.jpg


"And at the closing of the day              


                     She loosed the chain, and down she lay;              


                The broad stream bore her far away,              


           The Lady of Shalott."              


+

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

His Nuva power level was not compatible with the Golden Armor.

 

Also, the armor gave him all the powers of the Rahkshi it destroyed, essentially turning him into a Toa/Makuta hybrid. Despite being Mata again, he is now the most powerful Toa in existence.

That's a confusing way to put it. As I understand it, he only has those powers when he's wearing the armor. He himself didn't gain any new powers, so he's not a hybrid of any sort, it's just the armor giving him those powers.

 

Wasn't the armor supposed to be a "one-shot-thing"?

 

Well, yes. It destroyed all the Rahkshi and kraata, and then fed their power back into Tahu. The armor is now just that--armor. The power is in him.

 

What? No, man, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. That's the armor that allows him to use those powers. The power is not his, it's the armor.

 

Please read: http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Golden_Armor#Functionality

 

Or:

The Golden Armor was also able to bestow upon Tahu all of the Kraata powers that belonged to Kraata destroyed by the armor

 

 

 

However, the Tahu page provides a link to a recent word from Greg that if Tahu removed the armor, he would lose the power. This contradicts what was stated in years before, as shown by the Golden Armor page. Despite this retcon, I will look at it this way--Tahu was the one who used the armor, and therefore, no one else can use the Makuta powers that it gives him while he's wearing it. Make sense? Think of it as being symbiotic--the armor contains the power, but only Tahu can use it, and he must be connected to it in order to access it.

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please read: http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Golden_Armor#Functionality

 

 

Or:

The Golden Armor was also able to bestow upon Tahu all of the Kraata powers that belonged to Kraata destroyed by the armor

 

 

 

However, the Tahu page provides a link to a recent word from Greg that if Tahu removed the armor, he would lose the power. This contradicts what was stated in years before, as shown by the Golden Armor page. Despite this retcon, I will look at it this way--Tahu was the one who used the armor, and therefore, no one else can use the Makuta powers that it gives him while he's wearing it. Make sense? Think of it as being symbiotic--the armor contains the power, but only Tahu can use it, and he must be connected to it in order to access it.

 

I think you're taking the word "bestow" too literally. I think it means more in the same way the Hau bestows on him the power of Shielding. It doesn't literally give the powers to him, but it allows him to use them, It's not really a retcon, if we look at it that way. Or I could be all wrong about this, it's all a lot more vague and strange than I thought. The question of whether he would be the only one that can use those powers, or really, the armor in general, is definitely an interesting one, too...

Edited by farmstink buttlass

AXKP5KC.png


 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Please read: http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Golden_Armor#Functionality

 

 

Or:

The Golden Armor was also able to bestow upon Tahu all of the Kraata powers that belonged to Kraata destroyed by the armor

 

 

 

However, the Tahu page provides a link to a recent word from Greg that if Tahu removed the armor, he would lose the power. This contradicts what was stated in years before, as shown by the Golden Armor page. Despite this retcon, I will look at it this way--Tahu was the one who used the armor, and therefore, no one else can use the Makuta powers that it gives him while he's wearing it. Make sense? Think of it as being symbiotic--the armor contains the power, but only Tahu can use it, and he must be connected to it in order to access it.

 

I think you're taking the word "bestow" too literally. I think it means more in the same way the Hau bestows on him the power of Shielding. It doesn't literally give the powers to him, but it allows him to use them, It's not really a retcon, if we look at it that way. Or I could be all wrong about this, it's all a lot more vague and strange than I thought. The question of whether he would be the only one that can use those powers, or really, the armor in general, is definitely an interesting one, too...

 

Back in '10/'11, Greg stated that the armor became useless metal after it did its job, saying that the armor gave the power to Tahu rather than becoming a powered tool. This was apparently retconned over on the LMB a few months ago. Someone asked if Tahu would lose the powers after removing the armor, and he said yes, contrary to his multiple answers in the past saying otherwise. This is why I say the power is in him.

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't the man himself say to disregard any answers that contradict what he said before?

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't the man himself say to disregard any answers that contradict what he said before?

That, he did. Which makes me wonder how this one slipped past our notice. The date on the LMB post was from earlier this summer, before he made that official announcement on what is to be taken as canon from now on, so I don't know what to say.

 

I'm tempted to go over there now and ask about it.

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure the adaptive armor was replaced by the golden armor, but he kept the adaptive weapon. Also I'm pretty sure that the power resides in the golden armor. Greg said Tahu would be way too OP if it was located in him.

                      Archon                      


***


"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


***Toa Kyraan***

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure the adaptive armor was replaced by the golden armor, but he kept the adaptive weapon. Also I'm pretty sure that the power resides in the golden armor. Greg said Tahu would be way too OP if it was located in him.

That was the point. He was supposed to be that way. He has to learn how to control it all. Having the elemental powers of a Toa is one thing--the greater power of a Nuva quite another. But to suddenly become the Toa equivalent of a Makuta, that's a lot to handle, and I would expect him to have to struggle to contain it all. Overpowered, yes, but not without drawbacks.

 

That's also like saying the Makuta and tons of OoMN members are overpowered. Besides, he doesn't have access to ALL of the powers. I believe shapeshifting and telepathy were out, meaning he doesn't have as many advantages. Was Vakama and his arsenal of multipowered disks "overpowered?" Not really. And even if the power was in the armor, Tahu is still able to access it, meaning either way, he's overpowered. 

Edited by ~T1S~

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't the man himself say to disregard any answers that contradict what he said before?

Yes, but it's not completely ironclad. There (naturally) were follow-ups to the Golden Armor question where he stuck to his guns on the new definition.

 

And really, for those kinds of things, I think it's fine; it's not like we have an in-story example of Tahu removing the armor and then being powerless (or empowered), so if Greg wants to tweak the definition, I think it's okay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a confirmed shape for the armor now? Does it look the Stars armor, or is it possible it that just like Tahu himself the armor doesn't look exactly like the 2010 set and might have a shape closer to his old Nuva armor? Unless I'm mistaken about his Stars form not being his actual canon appearance?

pomegranate-banner-sm.png .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2. Did the golden armor give new powers to tahu, or is it the armor which has the power?

2) Tahu, not the armor

 

Forgetfulness retcon. Dang it. :( This means that someone could destroy the GA and make Tahu less powerful. The Toa has an obvious weakness. 

 

I still agree with myself. 

 

Also, the Toa so far in the story are at a rather ambiguous power level anyway. Since this is a hard reboot, I don't think any of them are Nuva or have the Golden Armor. Otherwise they wouldn't need elemental masks.  

Edited by fishers64
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

2. Did the golden armor give new powers to tahu, or is it the armor which has the power?

2) Tahu, not the armor

 

Forgetfulness retcon. Dang it. :( This means that someone could destroy the GA and make Tahu less powerful. The Toa has an obvious weakness. 

 

I still agree with myself. 

 

Also, the Toa so far in the story are at a rather ambiguous power level anyway. Since this is a hard reboot, I don't think any of them are Nuva or have the Golden Armor. Otherwise they wouldn't need elemental masks.  

 

There it is! I knew someone had asked about it!

  • Upvote 1

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait so he DOES still have his adaptive armour? Or not?... Because if he has he should have taken a fourth new form instead of reverting to his Mata appearance. Nuva was mata + protodermis. Phan/mist were mata + proto + adaptive armour. Taking away the powers bestowed by the energised protodermis would result in mata + adaptive armour which would give him another totally new form. So surely he loses the adaptive armour too?

 

Of course all of this is just fluff really when we consider the facts. Tahu was re-released as a quick cash-grab. Then for some reason they decided to come up with a contrived story in order to canonise the set as a new form... What is with Bionicle and OTT canonisation???


Check out my Bionicle store on Bricklink here!

> > > Bionic Bricks < < <

 

Let me know if you can help me find these last few collectibles!

Masks%20footer4_zpspqs4myrt.png

Also looking for WILD KRAATA and a VMKK Yo!!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait so he DOES still have his adaptive armour? Or not?... Because if he has he should have taken a fourth new form instead of reverting to his Mata appearance. Nuva was mata + protodermis. Phan/mist were mata + proto + adaptive armour. Taking away the powers bestowed by the energised protodermis would result in mata + adaptive armour which would give him another totally new form. So surely he loses the adaptive armour too?

 

Of course all of this is just fluff really when we consider the facts. Tahu was re-released as a quick cash-grab. Then for some reason they decided to come up with a contrived story in order to canonise the set as a new form... What is with Bionicle and OTT canonisation???

 

 

4)When Tahu transformed back to Toa Mata, what happened to launcher weapon that came with Adaptive Armor (the one which used to be a Nynrah Ghost Launcher)?

 

4) He still had an adaptive weapon and adaptive armor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Space flight destiny thing?

 

I'm not following.

 

You might be confused that Gen1 and Gen2 are connected.

They're not as we know of yet.

Also I have no idea what power you're talking about, sooo.... Yeah.

 

And he still has it. I don't think that's something that should/could be argued.

                      Archon                      


***


"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


***Toa Kyraan***

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4)When Tahu transformed back to Toa Mata, what happened to launcher weapon that came with Adaptive Armor (the one which used to be a Nynrah Ghost Launcher)?

 

4) He still had an adaptive weapon and adaptive armor

 

That's a TERRIBLE answer from Greg. One of a whole lot of terrible answers if I may say so (hopefully without invoking the wrath of, well everybody!) It's as if he's got so tired of answering fanboys he just doesn't even think about the answers anymore. In fact, it's eactly how I respond to my 6 year old when he's had two bites of food and asked 1million questions at dinner... "He still has it" Where? Because he can't have adaptive armour AND the gold armour at the same time surely? Besides, if you take away his golden armour he IS Tahu Mata so if indeed he DOES still have the adaptive weapon and armour it can't be denied that it isn't adaptive at all. In fact it's doing LITERALLY nothing so what's Greg's answer for that?

 

Of course I can't argue it because 'Greg said' and for some reason we still blindly follow his word as law even so many years after the story ended and when his response is given in private messages and FAQs and such. Maybe some of his 'answers' should be more closely examined before being set in stone as fact. Though personally (as other threads are currently discussing) I think this whole canonisation debacle is already way out of hands. Better we don't ask him any more questions than we do and get ridiculous answers...

 

Seriously, canon or not, this is a bum call. He does NOT have adaptive armour or weapon in his Stars form, he has golden armour and an elemental sword. That's it...


Check out my Bionicle store on Bricklink here!

> > > Bionic Bricks < < <

 

Let me know if you can help me find these last few collectibles!

Masks%20footer4_zpspqs4myrt.png

Also looking for WILD KRAATA and a VMKK Yo!!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

4)When Tahu transformed back to Toa Mata, what happened to launcher weapon that came with Adaptive Armor (the one which used to be a Nynrah Ghost Launcher)?

 

4) He still had an adaptive weapon and adaptive armor

 

That's a TERRIBLE answer from Greg. One of a whole lot of terrible answers if I may say so (hopefully without invoking the wrath of, well everybody!) It's as if he's got so tired of answering fanboys he just doesn't even think about the answers anymore. In fact, it's eactly how I respond to my 6 year old when he's had two bites of food and asked 1million questions at dinner... "He still has it" Where? Because he can't have adaptive armour AND the gold armour at the same time surely? Besides, if you take away his golden armour he IS Tahu Mata so if indeed he DOES still have the adaptive weapon and armour it can't be denied that it isn't adaptive at all. In fact it's doing LITERALLY nothing so what's Greg's answer for that?

 

Of course I can't argue it because 'Greg said' and for some reason we still blindly follow his word as law even so many years after the story ended and when his response is given in private messages and FAQs and such. Maybe some of his 'answers' should be more closely examined before being set in stone as fact. Though personally (as other threads are currently discussing) I think this whole canonisation debacle is already way out of hands. Better we don't ask him any more questions than we do and get ridiculous answers...

 

Seriously, canon or not, this is a bum call. He does NOT have adaptive armour or weapon in his Stars form, he has golden armour and an elemental sword. That's it...

 

Actually, yes he does. The body underneath the armor was reverted to Mata form, and the armor 'adapted' to fit him. That's why he looks so much different from his '01 form. The differences are the Adaptive Armor.

  • Upvote 1

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But look at the changes he went through when he received that armour as a Nuva. There was literally not a single part of him that was unchanged. And let's not forget how similar the Mata and Nuva forms are. So if anything he should still look much more like his Mistika incarnation than the original Mata. Point is the Stars line was just a cash-grab no matter how you colour it. They didn't need to canonise the sets, it just makes no sense...


Check out my Bionicle store on Bricklink here!

> > > Bionic Bricks < < <

 

Let me know if you can help me find these last few collectibles!

Masks%20footer4_zpspqs4myrt.png

Also looking for WILD KRAATA and a VMKK Yo!!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything in Bionicle is a "cash-grab".The story-team HAS to use the sets they sell in the story. Like it or not, they don't have a choice.

 

Also, you are acting like the story takes precedence over set-design. It does not. Stars were to celebrate the 10 years Bionicle had been running by bringing back familiar and popular character designs. Mistika were designed per setting and not necessarily meant to mirror the 2002 Nuva. There is a world of difference in the design. The story team's job is to write a story around that. 

 

Also, Greg did alleviate this discrepancy early on by saying the Adaptive Armour's Neutral form is more akin to his original Nuva appearance. So it's not 100% inconsistent.

 

Also, even if that was the case, no one would be happy if Tahu Stars looked like Tahu Mistika, bar rabid "stick-to-the-canon" fans.

 

-NotS

  • Upvote 1

tahubanner.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything in Bionicle is a "cash-grab".The story-team HAS to use the sets they sell in the story. Like it or not, they don't have a choice.

 

Also, you are acting like the story takes precedence over set-design. It does not. Stars were to celebrate the 10 years Bionicle had been running by bringing back familiar and popular character designs. Mistika were designed per setting and not necessarily meant to mirror the 2002 Nuva. There is a world of difference in the design. The story team's job is to write a story around that. 

 

Also, Greg did alleviate this discrepancy early on by saying the Adaptive Armour's Neutral form is more akin to his original Nuva appearance. So it's not 100% inconsistent.

 

Also, even if that was the case, no one would be happy if Tahu Stars looked like Tahu Mistika, bar rabid "stick-to-the-canon" fans.

 

-NotS

 

Quite right.  This is why story pacing was so awkward at times--tough to keep a good flow going when you have six villains in January and six heroes in July.

15863836330_7c7ce4fb30.jpg


"And at the closing of the day              


                     She loosed the chain, and down she lay;              


                The broad stream bore her far away,              


           The Lady of Shalott."              


+

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But look at the changes he went through when he received that armour as a Nuva. There was literally not a single part of him that was unchanged. And let's not forget how similar the Mata and Nuva forms are. So if anything he should still look much more like his Mistika incarnation than the original Mata. Point is the Stars line was just a cash-grab no matter how you colour it. They didn't need to canonise the sets, it just makes no sense...

Not quite. There was a topic about this a while back, and it prompted me to confirm my theory with Greg.

 

See, we know the characters in-story are partially organic, yes? Well, the sets don't represent that at all. There's a lot of things the sets don't do. The Adaptive armor is like your clothing. It fits to your body. So, in-story, the '08 Nuva looked exactly like they did in '02, but with many external changes. Their bodies did not become so wide and flat, but retained their original shape. The sets were like that because of the parts available during that era.

 

Like this: You're wearing a leather jacket and jeans. You take this off and replace it with a fancy suit. Has your body underneath changed? Nope. Just the outside details. Same concept applies here.

 

Make sense? 

  • Upvote 1

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...Also, you are acting like the story takes precedence over set-design. It does not. Stars were to celebrate the 10 years Bionicle had been running by bringing back familiar and popular character designs. ...

 

Very good point. I guess what sucks is that they absolutely HAD to include things like the stars sets in actual ongoing canon as it just makes such a mess of the stuff that's already happening. They could've just left that bit out and I doubt anyone would've been too torn up about it as they're all just rehashes of previous designs anyway. No new story really came from making them canon...

 

Alternatively, and slightly more back on topic, it would have also made much less of a mess of things if the canon take on things was 'all the Toa lost their nuva powers and adaptive armour when they left the matoran universe then they defeated the rahkshi and Tahu got gold armour. Bleh, done...

Like this: You're wearing a leather jacket and jeans. You take this off and replace it with a fancy suit. Has your body underneath changed? Nope. Just the outside details. Same concept applies here.

 

Make sense? 

 

 

Kapura'd!

 

But that doesn't quite cover it all does it? I get the small change from Mata to Nuva due to the protodermis. It was a bit cheap on Lego's part but I enjoyed the nuva almost as much as the mata (if only those masks...) So essentially the protodermis gives them new armour, augments their masks (?) and enhances their weapons. Fine. The adaptive armour isn't so much like a change of clothes though is it as that's when almost every aspect of their build changes. They even change colour which seems strange. Still nothing a change of clothes wouldn't explain but there's a serious amount of padding in adaptive armour to make those changes from nuva to phan/mist and my point is, if they STILL have adaptive armour then they should not look so like the Mata form.

 

So Greg said the adaptive armour had a 'neutral form'? What's that though if not just another get out of jail free card. It's not an answer so much as another excuse. The tail end of Bionicle is just one huge deus ex machina... 


Check out my Bionicle store on Bricklink here!

> > > Bionic Bricks < < <

 

Let me know if you can help me find these last few collectibles!

Masks%20footer4_zpspqs4myrt.png

Also looking for WILD KRAATA and a VMKK Yo!!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Like this: You're wearing a leather jacket and jeans. You take this off and replace it with a fancy suit. Has your body underneath changed? Nope. Just the outside details. Same concept applies here.

 

Make sense? 

 

 

Kapura'd!

 

But that doesn't quite cover it all does it? I get the small change from Mata to Nuva due to the protodermis. It was a bit cheap on Lego's part but I enjoyed the nuva almost as much as the mata (if only those masks...) So essentially the protodermis gives them new armour, augments their masks (?) and enhances their weapons. Fine. The adaptive armour isn't so much like a change of clothes though is it as that's when almost every aspect of their build changes. They even change colour which seems strange. Still nothing a change of clothes wouldn't explain but there's a serious amount of padding in adaptive armour to make those changes from nuva to phan/mist and my point is, if they STILL have adaptive armour then they should not look so like the Mata form.

 

So Greg said the adaptive armour had a 'neutral form'? What's that though if not just another get out of jail free card. It's not an answer so much as another excuse. The tail end of Bionicle is just one huge deus ex machina... 

 

You're still assuming that the sets are an exact representation of their story counterparts. The evolution of the parts over the years is what contributed to the fact that the '08 Nuva looked so different. In-story, there would have been little difference.

 

I'll give a few examples of this:

 

  • Toa Mata/Nuva/Metru--These sets had huge gears sticking out their backs. Picture that in-story: "Sorry, guys. I can't fit through this gap; my gear is in the way!"
  • Nivawk--Notice how the set "flaps" its wings. Any ideas as to how that would actually help it fly? The movie depiction made much more sense.
  • Most sets in general--How many of them could turn at the waist?
  • Most sets in general--The books occasionally describe hands with fingers. Besides Axonn and Hydraxon, what sets had moving fingers?
  • Turaga--The sets had levers sticking out their backs, and the arms and legs had one point of movement each, and that was limited.
  • Muaka--remember that scene from MNOG when Kopaka fought one? It's head turned and it was able to move it's paws around to attack. Can the set do either of these?
  • Basically any Toa/Turaga/Matoran set for the first few years. Not one of them could turn their heads.
  • Notice the inconsistencies in height over the years. Example 1, Example 2, Example 3. See? 

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. The sets don't show what the characters actually look like in-story. They are just there to say "Mistika Tahu has dark red and silver armor, little jets on his torso, fins to keep him stable in the air, and a shield with rotating blades. That's it. Beyond that, no set was ever story-accurate. They were just designed that way to fit LEGO's budget. 

 

Another example is the Transformers toys. Vehicle mode is usually accurate, but when you switch them to robot mode, you realize that they aren't perfect replicas of their forms in the movies or TV shows.

 

The neutral form is basically the '02 sets, but with the new colors. 

Edited by ~T1S~

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ACtually I think I have to disagree there... If there weren't dozens of comics, games, movies and who only knows how many other forms of Bionicle media I could probably swallow the 'not accurate depictions' thing but they ARE accurate depictions as they appear in eactly the same way every time they appear. There was never an image of Tahu Mata where he didn't look like the set. Same with his nuva and Mistika variants, the comics show them the same way as the sets do. Sure we see that in other media the Mata Toa can bend their elbows and turn at the waist but of course they can! 

 

I think there was a topic regarding this recently 'how do you imagine the sets' but in their actual form. Things like the pinholes and gears are odd but they keep them in the media. Things like heads that don't turn and arms that don't bend however are ridiculous and so artistic license is applied to other representations of these characters to allow them to do things the sets don't (due to current technology as you say) My argument would be, if the actual characters looked very different from the sets, they could have drawn them that way in the comics and then said "yeah the sets were as close as we could get to how we really wanted them" but that's clearly ridiculous from any point of view. Instead they just made the sets the best they could and then THAT was the official appearance of those characters. I don't know where the idea that the actual Toa Mata don't look like the Toa Mata sets is coming from but I certainly disagree.

 

As for height discrepancies? You said yourself, the Mata and other early sets were pretty limited by the available tech. It's not possible to add more parts to the following lines without making them bigger. So we take them with a pinch of salt and we agree that Tahu Mistika wasn't meant to be 50% taller than Tahu Nuva. It's just common sense and I don't think anyone would argue that because the sets aren't the same size the characters aren't the same size. They're all relative to each other but the earlier sets are a different scale, that's a pretty simple concept to grasp I think.

 

The point, as far as I see it, is this... While the characters we see in the comics and movies can do things that the sets cannot, that is only because it was not possible to make the sets do those things. If they could have given the toa heads that turned then they would have (like the Gen2 Toa have because that tech exists now) To say that the sets aren't accurate representations of the actual characters simply because each one isn't an actual bio-mechanical being is like saying a model railway isn't an accurate representation of a real one because I can't fit in the carriages  ;)


Check out my Bionicle store on Bricklink here!

> > > Bionic Bricks < < <

 

Let me know if you can help me find these last few collectibles!

Masks%20footer4_zpspqs4myrt.png

Also looking for WILD KRAATA and a VMKK Yo!!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ACtually I think I have to disagree there... If there weren't dozens of comics, games, movies and who only knows how many other forms of Bionicle media I could probably swallow the 'not accurate depictions' thing but they ARE accurate depictions as they appear in eactly the same way every time they appear. There was never an image of Tahu Mata where he didn't look like the set. Same with his nuva and Mistika variants, the comics show them the same way as the sets do. Sure we see that in other media the Mata Toa can bend their elbows and turn at the waist but of course they can! 

 

Bear in mind, for the comics, the artists were given the sets to draw. They were intended to promote set sales. 

Check the movies again. How many changes were made? Sure, you can still tell what they are, but there are dozens of changes (hands, full mobility, etc) that set them apart from, well, the sets.

 

Also, it's been stated before, and many of us concur, that the sets are not fully accurate representations, nor are the versions in the movies. Please explain what you mean by the set heights, though. We both agree that the sets, though different heights in plastic, are the same size in story. The depictions of the sets are fallible in that one regard. Why not in others? The sets do not show organics.

 

On that note, look at the Glatorian and Agori! In story, they were fully organic with mechanical implants! Do the sets reflect this in any way? Not at all! Care to explain that one away? The artists drew those characters one way in the comics to be able to relate them to the sets. The comics were meant to sell toys.

 

Another point is the Toa Nuva. What would happen if they took off their Nuva armor? Any changes made to their Mata forms was part of the Nuva transformation. Including legs and arms. What would happen if they removed their armor? Would their legs disappear? No. Look at their depiction in the movie--the Nuva limbs were armor plating over the old Mata limbs. If the armor came off, they would look like their original forms again. Now, what would happen if they put new armor (perhaps, Adaptive Armor?) would their appearance underneath change? Why would putting on a new suit of armor change their body shape? 

 

See, here's the problem between us. You see the line starting at the sets, and I see it starting at the story. To you, the story sells the sets. To me, the sets sell the story. It's supposed to work both ways. 

 

From a story perspective, though, the sets are not entirely accurate.

Edited by ~T1S~

~Your friendly, neighborhood Shadow

 

sotpbanner.png

~Credit for Avatar and Banner goes to

NickonAquaMagna~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Official Greg Dialogue said

4)When Tahu transformed back to Toa Mata, what happened to launcher weapon that came with Adaptive Armor (the one which used to be a Nynrah Ghost Launcher)?
 
4) He still had an adaptive weapon and adaptive armor

 

That's a TERRIBLE answer from Greg.

?? It answers the question, and is what we would expect. Greg has given a few pretty awful answers before, but this seems completely random to pick on this one?

 

One of a whole lot of terrible answers if I may say so (hopefully without invoking the wrath of, well everybody!) It's as if he's got so tired of answering fanboys he just doesn't even think about the answers anymore. In fact, it's eactly how I respond to my 6 year old when he's had two bites of food and asked 1million questions at dinner... "He still has it" Where?

Is this about how concise it was? People whine about long posts too (believe me :P). You need to keep in mind that to spend time answering tons of fan questions, each answer has to be short.

 

And since it's adaptive, seems like "where" is a second question entirely, and not likely something they would want to pin down. Except that presumably he's holding it, whatever form it is, in a hand. Yeah? (At least most likely...)

 

Because he can't have adaptive armour AND the gold armour at the same time surely?

I don't see how you figure. Why not? Isn't adaptive armor the one thing you could definitely wear in addition to any other armor, since it changes shape? :)

 

my point is, if they STILL have adaptive armour then they should not look so like the Mata form.

That's arbitrary. That idea came from your mind, not from the canon. This looks like a mistake I've seen a few fans make over the years, in making a guess, and treating it as absolute (not sure why), even in the face of contrary canon evidence. It should be the other way around; first you factor the canon evidence and then you form the best-fit theory (or range of theories :P). :)

 

If the adaptive armor senses that looking like the Mata form is the best adaptation in a particular situation, it'll change to that, pretty simple.

 

So Greg said the adaptive armour had a 'neutral form'? What's that though if not just another get out of jail free card. It's not an answer so much as another excuse. The tail end of Bionicle is just one huge deus ex machina...

No offense, but the end had plenty of legitimate problems -- we don't need to stretch things to add to perception of them. It makes sense and is pretty standard in fiction that shapeshifting beings/things have standard forms. And there's plenty of precedent for that just in Bionicle alone. (Although neutral is a bit different; it lets the user's own normal form be the standard form, but same basic idea.) But even if it wasn't an intended default, shapeshifting armor should still be able to take that shape!

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FTR, that's not the only answer from Greg that confirms that particular canon fact - that's the one I could most easily find in backsearching my own posts (that is possible, I have discovered, and it's much faster than searching the raw dialogue if I know that I've already posted it once). If your issue is in the wording of that particular answer, I can find you a new one - although that one seems rather simple, doesn't it?

 

Usually if Greg gives the same answer to the same question multiple times, it's canon beyond any reasonable shadow. This is one of those cases. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bear in mind, for the comics, the artists were given the sets to draw. They were intended to promote set sales. 

Check the movies again. How many changes were made? Sure, you can still tell what they are, but there are dozens of changes (hands, full mobility, etc) that set them apart from, well, the sets.

 

Also, it's been stated before, and many of us concur, that the sets are not fully accurate representations, nor are the versions in the movies. Please explain what you mean by the set heights, though. We both agree that the sets, though different heights in plastic, are the same size in story. The depictions of the sets are fallible in that one regard. Why not in others? The sets do not show organics.

 

On that note, look at the Glatorian and Agori! In story, they were fully organic with mechanical implants! Do the sets reflect this in any way? Not at all! Care to explain that one away? The artists drew those characters one way in the comics to be able to relate them to the sets. The comics were meant to sell toys.

 

Another point is the Toa Nuva. What would happen if they took off their Nuva armor? Any changes made to their Mata forms was part of the Nuva transformation. Including legs and arms. What would happen if they removed their armor? Would their legs disappear? No. Look at their depiction in the movie--the Nuva limbs were armor plating over the old Mata limbs. If the armor came off, they would look like their original forms again. Now, what would happen if they put new armor (perhaps, Adaptive Armor?) would their appearance underneath change? Why would putting on a new suit of armor change their body shape? 

 

See, here's the problem between us. You see the line starting at the sets, and I see it starting at the story. To you, the story sells the sets. To me, the sets sell the story. It's supposed to work both ways. 

 

From a story perspective, though, the sets are not entirely accurate.

 

 

I want to address the end of this post first because I think you're quite right. I totally see the story selling the sets as opposed to the reverse. After all it's not like Lergo made the story for free then charged money for the sets so people would get more involved in the story. They released the sets as a financial gambit and then used additional media like the comics and games (and the entire additional layer provided by the story in general) to help hook people into the franchise and develop an attachment to the material. I'm not really sure how the sets could sell the story to be honest. I bet there are plenty of people with Bionicle sets out there who have never read the story because it's not strictly necessary. Any child who reads the comics and watches the movies is going to want the toys in said media though because that's how good advertising is done. And that's really the whole point of a narrative storyline, to get consumers from one product onto the next. (Note, I'm not misreading the word 'sell' to have a strictly financial implication, I think my response reads a little like I am so should clarify that now!)

 

Although you did say this...

Bear in mind, for the comics, the artists were given the sets to draw. They were intended to promote set sales.

 

......

 To you, the story sells the sets. To me, the sets sell the story.

Which is entirely contradictory...

 

I don't really understand your argument regarding the sets as I think I already covered all of your counterpoints but I'll try again! The movie and comic representations were the TRUE representations of the characters. We'll ignore the fact that the Agori and Glatorian didn't appear anything like they should've done in either set or comic book form for now! The fact that the movie and comic representations differ is that they use completely different animation methods. Comic books don't need to display things like moving mouths because it's a series of still images. As for grasping hands, I guess initially they didn't see the need for them in the additional media as it's not animated. Therefore it's easy to simply draw a scene that 'imples' a character is holding, pushing, or otherwise manipulating an object. This would probably look rather odd in an animated 3D movie so it was added in. And let's be honest it looks better anyway. Hand pieces were incorporated in all the later sets anyway, once again it's simply down to the technology. They had probably wanted to give the original Toa hands but not wanted to invest in that new piece for a fledgling franchise. 

 

I think the set/comic/movie discrepancies all come down to a little artistic license and proves us both a little bit right on our opinions regarding the matter. The fact that the comic toa can turn their heads and the movie toa have opposable thumbs DOES show that the sets aren't entirely accurate depictions of the actual characters. It's also pretty clear that the only reason these things weren't included in the sets is because they couldn't be for technical or financial reasons. If we had to choose a definitive appearance for the Toa Mata I guess I would suggest it be the movie versions as they're as detailed as they needed to be while still being almost identical in outward appearance to the original sets. 

 

I don't understand why you're asking me to explain their height difference again when I did so in my last post. The sets are different sizes because they have very few small, simple pieces. Later sets have more detail and significantly more parts making them much bigger. It's progress, it all comes down to the technology available as has been mentioned dozens of times now. Thankfully this is one thing they decided not to canonise for a change in some weird 'mask of growth' saga. We know the different Toa are the same size in other media, we know they are not in set form. The sets are not all to the same scale simple. I'm not arguing that these sets are entirely accurate you must be able to see that from my posts so far. I'm just trying to limit the extent to which you seem to be suggesting they're inaccurate. By your reasoning, Lego could turn around and say the new 2015 Masters are exactly the same as the Toa Mata and this is what they looked like all along, just because - technology... We KNOW some things about the mata sets are wrong like the lack of hands, waist, neck, elbows, knees, basically EVERY joint except shoulders and hips... But once you rectify those problems then that's it surely? No other media has ever mentioned any other differences nor shown them. Yet you seem to be taking the stance that nothing is even remotely as it seems which essentially leaves everything open to wild interpretation. That's my point...

 

So the scale of Mata and Inika is wrong, yes other things are wrong too. I've conceded to that fact so many times I'm not even going to bother doing it anymore. My point is, some things are different but we still KNOW what their true forms are from media representations (though individual interpretation will always exist to a degree) Your point seems to be, "if their hands are different then maybe EVERYTHING is different!"

 

Last point was the Toa Nuva armour. Of course they don't take their legs off if they remove the nuva armour! The sets are not intricately detailed but that doesn't mean they are inaccurate. Limitations of the technology at the time... Again!...

 

I think I'm kind of tapped out on this back and forth as you seem to be absolutely certain that absolutely nothing is certain. I think almost everything is certain with a few exceptions. 

 

That's a TERRIBLE answer from Greg.

?? It answers the question, and is what we would expect. Greg has given a few pretty awful answers before, but this seems completely random to pick on this one?

 

Because he can't have adaptive armour AND the gold armour at the same time surely?

I don't see how you figure. Why not? Isn't adaptive armor the one thing you could definitely wear in addition to any other armor, since it changes shape? :)

 

my point is, if they STILL have adaptive armour then they should not look so like the Mata form.

That's arbitrary. That idea came from your mind, not from the canon. This looks like a mistake I've seen a few fans make over the years, in making a guess, and treating it as absolute (not sure why), even in the face of contrary canon evidence. It should be the other way around; first you factor the canon evidence and then you form the best-fit theory (or range of theories :P). :)

 

If the adaptive armor senses that looking like the Mata form is the best adaptation in a particular situation, it'll change to that, pretty simple.

 

So Greg said the adaptive armour had a 'neutral form'? What's that though if not just another get out of jail free card. It's not an answer so much as another excuse. The tail end of Bionicle is just one huge deus ex machina...

No offense, but the end had plenty of legitimate problems -- we don't need to stretch things to add to perception of them. It makes sense and is pretty standard in fiction that shapeshifting beings/things have standard forms. And there's plenty of precedent for that just in Bionicle alone. (Although neutral is a bit different; it lets the user's own normal form be the standard form, but same basic idea.) But even if it wasn't an intended default, shapeshifting armor should still be able to take that shape!

 

 

The fact the answer bugs me is exactly because it is too concise as you say. If his other answers (that fishers just mentioned) make a bit more of an effort to eplain this stuff I'd certainly be interested in hearing a little more than what seems very much like a 'not now I'm busy' answer from him!

 

I don't mean to assume that my idea is correct regarding his de-nuva-d form. It was born of logic as shown above rather than just being 'what I think'. I see no point in trying to convince the Bionicle fanbase that Greg is wrong and I know better!!! My point is that it simply makes sense for Mata + Adaptive armour to be equal to something significantly more unusual than the Stars version we got. Especially considering how different Tahu Mist was from Tahu Nuva. 

 

I CAN get my head around the way things are explained taking the 'neutral armour' into account. After all, stars Tahu has a different torso, limbs and feet from his Mata version so I guess it's as was stated previously and the armour simply doesn't feel a need to adapt to the current environment! 

 

TANGENT : This raises an interesting question though... When exactly does the adaptive armour adapt? I forget when in the story they got it but it was before entering KArda Nui wasn't it? And then it adapted once they entered the region IIRC... But it doesn't revert back once they leave the area does it? Something made especially odd given that the entire area is then destroyed rendering the adaptation to it completely pointless. Does it not adapt to Spherus Magna when they leave the MU? If they stay 'adapted' on Spherus Magna as opposed to neutral, how come Tahu's armour is in that state?

 

Anyway, yeah... Also just to top it off. If Mata Nui could just fix the planet in the end of the story, couldn't he have done it in the beginning before the robot launched? Or am I messing my times up and the separation happened after he left?


Check out my Bionicle store on Bricklink here!

> > > Bionic Bricks < < <

 

Let me know if you can help me find these last few collectibles!

Masks%20footer4_zpspqs4myrt.png

Also looking for WILD KRAATA and a VMKK Yo!!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...