In what ways were the Tohunga weakened?

[Fry]

Alright, so apparently, the Tohunga on Mata-Nui are a weakened version of the Tohunga from Metru-Nui. That much has been established in the story cannon, however, in what ways were the Tohunga weakened? 

 

I saw the 2001 Tohunga do just about everything that any of the 2004 Tohunga (or would the word Matoran be more appropriate) could do, so is it like a difference in strength? Can the 2004 Tohunga lift more?

 

I never really got this.

[Regitnui]

 

 

Like that. Size, and general ability.

[Irrie]

They also got funky-shaped heads that creepily stare into your soul.

[Xan]

And those odd hands. I wonder which set designer thought that was a good idea. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by Craig B

[ALVIS]

Why, yes, the word Matoran would be more appropriate. The term "tohunga" was pulled from the saga's lexicon because it offended the Maori people, to whom it rightfully belongs. Continuing to use the term to refer to a LEGO product instead of its actual meaning(s) is disrespectful to their culture and language.

 

The more you know ~

[Irrie]

Why, yes, the word Matoran would be more appropriate. The term "tohunga" was pulled from the saga's lexicon because it offended the Maori people, to whom it rightfully belongs. Continuing to use the term to refer to a LEGO product instead of its actual meaning(s) is disrespectful to their culture and language.

 

The more you know ~

So, when's BZPower going to change the rank name to the correct term? 

[Dallior]

 

Why, yes, the word Matoran would be more appropriate. The term "tohunga" was pulled from the saga's lexicon because it offended the Maori people, to whom it rightfully belongs. Continuing to use the term to refer to a LEGO product instead of its actual meaning(s) is disrespectful to their culture and language.

 

The more you know ~

So, when's BZPower going to change the rank name to the correct term? 

 

NEVER! Tohunga may not be "politically correct", but it fits a lot better with Turaga and Toa that Matoran.

[Zeb]

 

 

Like that. Size, and general ability.

Not to mention they wound up with less flexibility and articuation, as well as part count.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Why, yes, the word Matoran would be more appropriate. The term "tohunga" was pulled from the saga's lexicon because it offended the Maori people, to whom it rightfully belongs. Continuing to use the term to refer to a LEGO product instead of its actual meaning(s) is disrespectful to their culture and language.

 

The more you know ~

 

And calling Umbra, Umbra, is disrespectful to Romans (Italians) because it is derived from a Roman word, and not used with the same meaning and intention in mind? I'm sorry, but telling someone to prohibit which words they use to refer to something, simply on the off-chance that an individual will be offended, comes off as juvenile.

 

Because let's face it, the "Maori v. Lego" incident wasn't about being offended. It was about making money.

That being said, Matoran is the more functional word to use, as it is the one most commonly referenced canonically. I may be misremembering things, but I believe it was later stated, after Kewa and Kohu were returned to the fold, that "Tohunga" is a very specific word which refers to the villagers in their divide, Mata-Nui state, and is meant to represent a lack of unity caused by Makuta's attacks. Or something along those lines. In any case, since we're talking about the species, which is always referred to as "Matoran", that's the better fit.

 

But let's get down to the nitty gritty:

 

Alright, so apparently, the Tohunga on Mata-Nui are a weakened version of the Tohunga from Metru-Nui. That much has been established in the story cannon, however, in what ways were the Tohunga weakened? 

 

I saw the 2001 Tohunga do just about everything that any of the 2004 Tohunga (or would the word Matoran be more appropriate) could do, so is it like a difference in strength? Can the 2004 Tohunga lift more?

 

I never really got this.

 

The Matoran of Metru-Nui were subjected to immense, otherworldly gains, as a result of constant work and labor brought on by the oppressive government which had allowed itself to take root. But that's besides the point; the point is how they were weakened.

 

When Makuta placed the Matoran in pods, hoping to keep them in a semi-conscious animation, he originally planned to use the Vahi to cause the rapid passing of time, thus allowing him to be their "savior" after a "great deal of time" had passed. It is unclear if he originally had measures in place to keep their bodies from decaying, if he was willing to risk it, or if he simply didn't think; in any event, after his defeat, and Visorak occupation of Metru-Nui, the Matoran's bodies and minds began to wane.

 

The result? Complete amnesia upon being awakened, resulting in lowered technical skills and capabilities, and a loss of both size and muscle mass, causing them to be smaller, and much weaker; thus, rather than utilize tools, they were forced to turn to slinging Kanoka disks and the like as a way of defense.

 

Of course, then came along the "rebuilding", a.k.a. "the CEO of LEGO needs a new yacht", which restored most of their strength. And, of course, dealing with Rahi, the Matoran overall became more competent warriors, and gained new technical skills, simply as a requirement to survive.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Dallior]

I may be misremembering things, but I believe it was later stated, after Kewa and Kohu were returned to the fold, that "Tohunga" is a very specific word which refers to the villagers in their divide, Mata-Nui state, and is meant to represent a lack of unity caused by Makuta's attacks. Or something along those lines.

 

Greg Farshtey retconned that.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Greg Farshtey retconned that.

 

Wait, hold up... So, it went from Tohunga only, to Matoran only, to Matoran and Tohunga, and now it's back to Matoran only? So it's a retcon, of a retcon, of a retcon? This couldn't get any deeper if Leonardo DiCaprio showed up and started spinning a top around.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

 

Greg Farshtey retconned that.

Wait, hold up... So, it went from Tohunga only, to Matoran only, to Matoran and Tohunga, and now it's back to Matoran only? So it's a retcon, of a retcon, of a retcon? This couldn't get any deeper if Leonardo DiCaprio showed up and started spinning a top around.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

Retconception.

[Fry]

 

Why, yes, the word Matoran would be more appropriate. The term "tohunga" was pulled from the saga's lexicon because it offended the Maori people, to whom it rightfully belongs. Continuing to use the term to refer to a LEGO product instead of its actual meaning(s) is disrespectful to their culture and language.

 

The more you know ~

 

And calling Umbra, Umbra, is disrespectful to Romans (Italians) because it is derived from a Roman word, and not used with the same meaning and intention in mind? I'm sorry, but telling someone to prohibit which words they use to refer to something, simply on the off-chance that an individual will be offended, comes off as juvenile.

 

Because let's face it, the "Maori v. Lego" incident wasn't about being offended. It was about making money.

That being said, Matoran is the more functional word to use, as it is the one most commonly referenced canonically. I may be misremembering things, but I believe it was later stated, after Kewa and Kohu were returned to the fold, that "Tohunga" is a very specific word which refers to the villagers in their divide, Mata-Nui state, and is meant to represent a lack of unity caused by Makuta's attacks. Or something along those lines. In any case, since we're talking about the species, which is always referred to as "Matoran", that's the better fit.

 

But let's get down to the nitty gritty:

 

Alright, so apparently, the Tohunga on Mata-Nui are a weakened version of the Tohunga from Metru-Nui. That much has been established in the story cannon, however, in what ways were the Tohunga weakened? 

 

I saw the 2001 Tohunga do just about everything that any of the 2004 Tohunga (or would the word Matoran be more appropriate) could do, so is it like a difference in strength? Can the 2004 Tohunga lift more?

 

I never really got this.

 

The Matoran of Metru-Nui were subjected to immense, otherworldly gains, as a result of constant work and labor brought on by the oppressive government which had allowed itself to take root. But that's besides the point; the point is how they were weakened.

 

When Makuta placed the Matoran in pods, hoping to keep them in a semi-conscious animation, he originally planned to use the Vahi to cause the rapid passing of time, thus allowing him to be their "savior" after a "great deal of time" had passed. It is unclear if he originally had measures in place to keep their bodies from decaying, if he was willing to risk it, or if he simply didn't think; in any event, after his defeat, and Visorak occupation of Metru-Nui, the Matoran's bodies and minds began to wane.

 

The result? Complete amnesia upon being awakened, resulting in lowered technical skills and capabilities, and a loss of both size and muscle mass, causing them to be smaller, and much weaker; thus, rather than utilize tools, they were forced to turn to slinging Kanoka disks and the like as a way of defense.

 

Of course, then came along the "rebuilding", a.k.a. "the CEO of LEGO needs a new yacht", which restored most of their strength. And, of course, dealing with Rahi, the Matoran overall became more competent warriors, and gained new technical skills, simply as a requirement to survive.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

 

Hahaha, that yacht joke made my day!

[bonesiii]

Greg Farshtey retconned that.

 

Wait, hold up... So, it went from Tohunga only, to Matoran only, to Matoran and Tohunga, and now it's back to Matoran only?

Not exactly -- it went from Tohunga directly to Matoran after the Maori issue, and they assumed they just wouldn't need to reference the past again, so didn't yet retcon Tohunga, and had the online update giving a story reason for the change. Then when it was decided they would do 2004 as flashbacks, this could no longer work, so they just took Tohunga out entirely then. It's remained out ever since.

 

So, it's more like it went from Tohunga only, to Tohunga renamed Matoran, to always Matoran only.

[Regitnui]

And set-wise, we went from McToran (McDonald's Happy Meal distribution) to MoLtoran (introduced with the Mask of Light movie) to Metruan (Named after the new setting).

[Quisoves Potoo]

And calling Umbra, Umbra, is disrespectful to Romans (Italians) because it is derived from a Roman word, and not used with the same meaning and intention in mind? I'm sorry, but telling someone to prohibit which words they use to refer to something, simply on the off-chance that an individual will be offended, comes off as juvenile.

That's not really a fair comparison. Umbra means merely "shadow." It is not held in any special regard. "Tohunga," on the other hand, means "Priest." I'm not acquainted with the specifics of traditional Maori religion, but apparently the word is accorded a special reverence. Sufficiently so to prompt a particular objection. Note that not all the Maiori-derived names were changed. The original six Toa kept theirs, and they are still being used in 2015.

[Boidoh]

In the culture of the Māori of New Zealand, a tohunga is an expert practitioner of any skill or art, either religious or otherwise. Tohunga include expert priests, healers, navigators, carvers, builders, teachers and advisors.

 

Doesn't have to be a priest...

[Sir Kohran]

In the culture of the Māori of New Zealand, a tohunga is an expert practitioner of any skill or art, either religious or otherwise. Tohunga include expert priests, healers, navigators, carvers, builders, teachers and advisors.

 

Doesn't have to be a priest...

 

Perhaps not exclusively, but 'priest' does seem to be the most common meaning:

 

'Once there was a tohunga, an old priest taught in the ways of the old whare wānanga. His house sat amongst the native bush which blanketed the hills rising high above a small sea side village.

The tohunga had had a long life, filled with magic and knowledge of the universe, of constellations, sea navigation, natural phenomena, trees, plants, and medicines. These were the special gifts handed down to him through a long line of tohunga schooled in the same way.'

 

Source

Edited December 24, 2014 by Sir Kohran

[Toarobot18]

Even if Tohunga does mean "priest," and not "expert," I wonder what people would have thought had the English word for "priest" been used. That is, "priest." I suspect that would have been less of an issue. But since the Matoran are not really priests or experts, so that would not have made a very good species name for English speakers to whom the actual meaning of the word is readily obvious, perhaps Lego should have chosen a French word. On the other hand, that's not very good either. It would spoil the mystery for the French Bionicle fans. I guess the way to go would have been calling them the "sacerdotes." The ancient Romans wouldn't have complained, considering they are long dead. Though, there is the Vatican. And Latin doesn't fit the islander theme.

 

To the question at hand, I would imagine that the original and rebuilt Matoran could indeed lift more, and also could run faster, reach higher, and do other things better as implied by the differences between the sets, and by the fact that the canon says the original and rebuilt forms were superior.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Toarobot18

[Regitnui]

Let's leave it as using the word Tohunga is not allowed, hmm? Better yet, consider it a retcon to the effect that Tohunga was never used.

[Toarobot18]

It was used, though, and as far as I know, it is allowed. I am not familiar with the retconning that took place, but if the theory is that Tohunga only refers to Matoran on Mata Nui in their divided state, and someone wishes to, for example, write a fan fiction that takes place during that exact time period, and they wish to use the word, there shouldn't be a rule against it. They're not copywriting it or selling a product, and if someone is personally offended by the word's use (and not offended on behalf of others they assume would be offended), they can bring it up with the person who uses it. There are at least two perfectly defensible positions in the debate on the "ownership" of words by individuals or cultures.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Toarobot18

[ALVIS]

It was used, though, and as far as I know, it is allowed. I am not familiar with the retconning that took place, but if the theory is that Tohunga only refers to Matoran on Mata Nui in their divided state, and someone wishes to, for example, write a fan fiction that takes place during that exact time period, and they wish to use the word, there shouldn't be a rule against it. They're not copywriting it or selling a product, and if someone is personally offended by the word's use (and not offended on behalf of others they assume would be offended), they can bring it up with the person who uses it. There are at least two perfectly defensible positions in the debate on the "ownership" of words by individuals or cultures.

 

Well, there are no rules for fanfiction, so we can't stop writers from using the term tohunga in their fanfics any more than we can stop them from writing a fanfic where Pridak and Teridax spend a romantic evening at the movies and watch Guardians of the Galaxy.

 

Using "Tohunga" in fanfics is still disrespectful to the actual meaning of the word, but at least it's not as bad as trying to make money off of Maori words (which is what TLG tried to do).

[bonesiii]

And set-wise, we went from McToran (McDonald's Happy Meal distribution) to MoLtoran (introduced with the Mask of Light movie) to Metruan (Named after the new setting).

Just to make sure people reading along are clear on this, those are fan-made nicknames.

 

 

A point to the "English priest" thing above -- the main argument back in the day was that the Maori culture is in some danger of disappearing, so knowledge of its original meaning (or most prominent of them) could be eroded. This is not analogous to common terms like priest.

 

However, Toarobot is absolutely right that fans can still use it without intending any disrespect. For most of us, we fell in love with the word from it being in Bionicle, and that can't be undone. This shouldn't have happened, but the fault for it was on LEGO (which they did their best to fix when it was pointed out. I do use it in my own fanfics (one series of them anyways), on the justification that any alien word chosen at random could accidentally match any real-world word, and there's nothing wrong with liking the sound of the word, etc. However, I think overall it's the better route (not the only good route but still) to avoid it even in fanfics, and I do in my others (like my retelling; that follows the new canon where the term never existed).

 

And fan usage can be done in a disrespectful way, especially if it's done just to spite the people who raised concerns about it, and in those cases the fan is in the wrong. Not for originally liking it, but for how they reacted to their learning of the background. (So, just because fans can use it without being disrespectful doesn't mean all such usage is respectful.)

[Toarobot18]

A point to the "English priest" thing above -- the main argument back in the day was that the Maori culture is in some danger of disappearing, so knowledge of its original meaning (or most prominent of them) could be eroded. This is not analogous to common terms like priest.

I am not very familiar with the arguments made back in the day, or the state of the Maori language then or now, but if the culture is disappearing, Lego's temporary use of "Tohunga" might, hypothetically, even serve to preserve words that would otherwise be lost. For example, I would never have heard of the word "Tohunga" if it were not for Lego. If no one had ever told me it was a Maori word, I might have thought Lego made it up. Yet since I had not previously known the word's original meaning, my use of it in the Bionicle sense does not make me any less likely to use it in its original sense. When usage of the word is considered worldwide, my usage of the word would not reduce usage of the word in the original sense, but add more instances of the new usage to those existing of the old. An argument could be made that using "Tohunga" in the Bionicle sense erodes the original sense if the Maori people began to avoid using the word due to its new association with the Bionicle line. However, since Lego stopped using the name, it has become such a minor term in the Bionicle community that it seems very unlikely that the Bionicle sense would have any negative effect upon the degree to which the original word is used in its original sense. Confusion between the two meanings is also unlikely, not only due to its limited usage in the Bionicle sense, but also due to the obvious differences in context when the word is used.

 

In summary, then, I would say that fan usage of the word "Tohunga" is extremely unlikely to cause its original meaning to erode and perhaps disappear. In fact, I might go so far as to say that our limited usage could have a positive effect on its preservation, in that if "Tohunga" disappeared from every last dictionary, I and others who learned the term and its history due to is short appropriation by Bionicle would still know it meant priest or expert in the Maori tongue. This is not to say that if Bionicle had continued officially and prominently using "Tohunga," as "Toa" is used now, it could not eventually have had a net negative effect, but I think that we shouldn't worry to much when someone starts the occasional topic on BZPower titled "In what ways were the Tohunga weakened?"

Edited December 24, 2014 by Toarobot18

[bonesiii]

I am not very familiar with the arguments made back in the day, or the state of the Maori language then or now, but if the culture is disappearing, Lego's temporary use of "Tohunga" might, hypothetically, even serve to preserve words that would otherwise be lost.

I know, and that was discussed back then too, but it isn't that simple; if all that's preserved is the name and a vague idea of where it came from among some online fans, people felt that isn't really enough of a gain.

 

Sorry I had to skim the rest of your reply (word to the wise... split up large paragraphs... way easier to read that way ). I agree that fan usage is not likely to be a significant problem and if done right the upsides may outweight the down; I was simply trying to report part of the discussion about LEGO's usage, not fans (for the most part), in that part.

[Toarobot18]

Sorry I had to skim the rest of your reply (word to the wise... split up large paragraphs... way easier to read that way ).

Sorry about that. You're right, I probably could have put a couple breaks in there. I edited in one as a start.

 

Thinking about the original topic a little more, I began to wonder if there has ever been any canon reference to the differences in abilities between the Matoran types, though I still think the sets provide more than enough evidence as to what those differences would be. Does anybody remember a statement in any form of media about the loss of Matoran capability caused by their degradation in the Matoran Spheres, or the sort of benefits rebuilding the Matoran provided?

[Sir Kohran]

Even if Tohunga does mean "priest," and not "expert," I wonder what people would have thought had the English word for "priest" been used. That is, "priest." I suspect that would have been less of an issue. But since the Matoran are not really priests or experts, so that would not have made a very good species name for English speakers to whom the actual meaning of the word is readily obvious, perhaps Lego should have chosen a French word. On the other hand, that's not very good either. It would spoil the mystery for the French Bionicle fans. I guess the way to go would have been calling them the "sacerdotes." The ancient Romans wouldn't have complained, considering they are long dead. Though, there is the Vatican. And Latin doesn't fit the islander theme.

 

One problem is that almost any word originating from a European language is going to be recognisable to a considerably large number of people in one part or another of the West, because European words remain in contemporary usage due to the huge influence of Europe on global history. Maori words are a different matter, because the language is no longer used much contemporarily and was never spoken by a very large number of people across a very large area anyway, so nearly all Westerners have no familiarity with it. The consequence is that words that (to Westerners) have no recognisable real-world origin are likely going to be mistaken for made-up names for made-up characters and things. That's obviously not a good thing for those who want to keep their language's words and original meanings intact.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Sir Kohran

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Here's some links in the case you all want to know more about the Maori/LEGO case regarding the word "Tohunga". 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1619406.stm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/31/andrewosborn

 

Maori Opinions on BZP (2002): http://www.bzpower.com/story.php?ID=631

 

-NotS

[Regitnui]

In light of the above, would it not be simpler to not use then word Tohunga in reference to the Matoran at all? It may have been used once, but it doesn't give us the right to use it now. Unlike Toa, which has now lost any meaning in this context other than 'ugly plastic toy', tohunga remains strongly part of Maori culture.

 

If BZP can blur the word , which is an important word in my faith only considered rude because it is the opposite to heaven, surely forum-wide autocorrect can change Tohunga to Matoran

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

In light of the above, would it not be simpler to not use then word Tohunga in reference to the Matoran at all? It may have been used once, but it doesn't give us the right to use it now. Unlike Toa, which has now lost any meaning in this context other than 'ugly plastic toy', tohunga remains strongly part of Maori culture.

 

If BZP can blur the word ######, which is an important word in my faith only considered rude because it is the opposite to heaven, surely forum-wide autocorrect can change Tohunga to Matoran

 

Because it's generally considered to be a word drawn out for swearing. I myself am an absolute connoisseur of swear words and insults, as a result of the local culture being unparalleled in these fields, and the ever-present word filter serves as a constant reminder of how much of a fool one looks posting with a row of pound signs.

 

In light of the above? Nothing changes. Nothing.

 

Why? Because this little twelve year old boy was the wisest person involved in the discussion:

 

""Your language won't be endangered. Because ever since I got into Bionicle I actually know some Maori now. It will help keep your language alive. A Maori dictionary site has been posted hundreds of times for people who want to learn the language. And we aren't insulting your language, we're promoting it so people are more aware of your country. And Bionicle is a great line. LEGO won't cancel it. "

 

If it wasn't for Bionicle, my only knowledge of the Maori, or its culture, is, "Oh, you mean those island dwelling people who I think were mentioned on Planet Earth? Yeah, I know them." But, thanks in no small part to Bionicle, I am actually aware of them, their modern cultural position, and, to some extent (certainly moreso than most of my peer group), their spirituality.

 

The thing is, people nowadays come up with all sorts of misguided buzzwords like "cultural appropriation" in order to justify striking against things they don't like. Now, in this case, was this the case? No, I don't think it was. This was about the money: a quick look at the articles will reveal that to somewhat with just a bit of business sense. Further, there was the publicity. Lawsuits against a big company don't just go away, and we still feel the effects of this one today.

 

And it worked. Now, doubtless, there are people reading this topic who know little to nothing about the Maori, and may just learn a little bit more because of it. All because one person got their word usage confused.

 

So kudos to you, random 12 year old from 2001. Heck, you were even half right on the cancelling aspect.

 

But one final note:

 

You do not encourage children and adults to rewrite our culture for -fun-. Every single book, film and I mean EVERY single one, that has come out of America regarding our people has been stereotypical, demeaning and down right rude. In contrast we have done what wrong to you?

 

This girl (now a woman, I imagine, seeing that we have members who weren't even born when these posts were made) comes from an understandable position. But posts like this are the irony.

 

The people she's criticizing for using name translators and the like? They're kids. The fact they're using a word translator to generate character names is proof of that, in and of itself. Claiming moral superiority over children, and then immediately criticizing them as a collective for being part of a destructive and imperialistic culture... sorry, not feeling that sympathetic.

 

I really want to go on. I really. But no sense tormenting the board with a lengthy rant, so I'll just end it here. I've said what needs to be said with regards to the board itself, and the poster; cultural discussions can stay in PM.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

""Your language won't be endangered. Because ever since I got into Bionicle I actually know some Maori now. It will help keep your language alive. A Maori dictionary site has been posted hundreds of times for people who want to learn the language. And we aren't insulting your language, we're promoting it so people are more aware of your country. And Bionicle is a great line. LEGO won't cancel it. "

If it wasn't for Bionicle, my only knowledge of the Maori, or its culture, is, "Oh, you mean those island dwelling people who I think were mentioned on Planet Earth? Yeah, I know them." But, thanks in no small part to Bionicle, I am actually aware of them, their modern cultural position, and, to some extent (certainly moreso than most of my peer group), their spirituality.

 

That may be the case for you, but is it for others? Does the average 2000s kid associate the word 'Toa' with a Maori warrior or a Bionicle product manufactured by Lego?

[Regitnui]

 

If BZP can blur the word ######, which is an important word in my faith only considered rude because it is the opposite to heaven, surely forum-wide autocorrect can change Tohunga to Matoran

Because it's generally considered to be a word drawn out for swearing. I myself am an absolute connoisseur of swear words and insults, as a result of the local culture being unparalleled in these fields, and the ever-present word filter serves as a constant reminder of how much of a fool one looks posting with a row of pound signs.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

Right, Mr Patriot, you've done precisely what your country is famous for doing; charging in with an opinion without understanding what was said.

 

I said "If we can censor things, surely BZP can automatically autocorrect Tohunga to Matoran?" Of course, being me, I used twice as many words to say that. I never said that opposite-heaven should be uncensored, nor that it is not used as a profanity. But if there's a system in place that automatically censors swearwords (With hashes, in my case), surely that same system can change words to other words? It'd certainly be in keeping with TLG's stance, and the current canon.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Regitnui

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

I said "If we can censor things, surely BZP can automatically autocorrect Tohunga to Matoran?" Of course, being me, I used twice as many words to say that. I never said that opposite-heaven should be uncensored, nor that it is not used as a profanity. But if there's a system in place that automatically censors swearwords (With hashes, in my case), surely that same system can change words to other words? It'd certainly be in keeping with TLG's stance, and the current canon. 

 

Why on earth should 'Tohunga' be censored? There's nothing inherently offensive about the word. Its only distinctive feature is that it belongs to a non-European language.

 

As for TLG's stance, that is simply to not use 'Tohunga' in official media. BZPower don't make or release official media, therefore I don't see why anyone on here shouldn't use the word.

[Regitnui]

I didn't say 'censor'. I said autocorrect, as in the forum automatically changes it from the old, incorrect term to the new, accepted one. And I was asking whether it can be done, rather than whether it should be done.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Regitnui

[Toa Malachives]

Matoran: I'm big strong and cool!

Some pods and a ridiculous reason for sets later.

Matoran: I can't remember a thing

 

I said "If we can censor things, surely BZP can automatically autocorrect Tohunga to Matoran?" Of course, being me, I used twice as many words to say that. I never said that opposite-heaven should be uncensored, nor that it is not used as a profanity. But if there's a system in place that automatically censors swearwords (With hashes, in my case), surely that same system can change words to other words? It'd certainly be in keeping with TLG's stance, and the current canon. 

 

Why on earth should 'Tohunga' be censored? There's nothing inherently offensive about the word. Its only distinctive feature is that it belongs to a non-European language.

 

As for TLG's stance, that is simply to not use 'Tohunga' in official media. BZPower don't make or release official media, therefore I don't see why anyone on here shouldn't use the word.

Yes you can say that, yes you can do what you want. I personally wouldn't out of simple respect

Edited December 28, 2014 by Toa Malachives

[Munty]

Wow I wish I'd read this topic days ago. Just a thought though. Only about 10% of the posts in here are actually relevent to the original question being raised. Is it possible for a Mod to split this discussion into what the original discussion was about and the Maori debate? Because it seems that this is just one big off-topic mess right now!

 

But anyway, the Metru-Nui Matoran were shut away from the air and the light and and everything their bodies were used to. They didn't move or eat or think for a veeery long time. Muscles atrophy when not in use and the Matoran are living muscle so (somehow) the metallic parts of their body seem to have been affected in the same way. Yes it was clearly just a dues ex machina to get the Metru looking Matoran to transform into a 2001 Tohunga form between the different storylines but it's pretty believable I think. Here's a question though. I was ill on boxing day (just 2 glasses of champagne on xmas day and raging headache after!) and I actually spent the day on the sofa watching old movies. Between The Winter Soldier, The Lego Movie (again) and some TTTE for the boys I managed to rewatch the first 2 Bionicle movies. Now the ending already kind of confused me as the Toa Metru go straight to being Turaga while skipping over the whole Hordika/Visorak bit so I can't remember exactly what the timescale is meant to be. Even if we add the 3rd movie after Makuta's 'defeat' though it still seems to me that the Matoran were only in their spheres for a very short time. Can someone kindly jog my memory with regards to the time scale here and how it is they spend so long in the spheres?

 

Off-topic now to the topic being more prevalently discussed in here... I read through some of the comments by Maori people that were linked a little further up and they just come over as absolutely ridiculous. There is literally nothing 'sacred' about language. Even if the word Tohunga DID mean priest, that's not really a special word is it? Would the Western world be so utterly outraged by the Toyota Priest for example? Would it register as a car company making a mockery of Chrsitianity, God and western culture in general? No, I don't think so either... I don't think Lego really needed to back down but of course it made a lot more sense for them to do so and probably saved them millions over the alternative. I for one think the fault was with theMaori as opposed to Lego though. Seriously how sensitive can you get?!

 

On a serious note this is directly quoted from one of the comments on the link above;

Our language was forbidden the use to us in schools. We got beaten for it. We saved our language from extinction 25 years back with an innovative programme adopted by many other cultures who were slaughtered by probably your ancestors. And now something so precious to us and central to our culture is mocked and demeaned by pathetic people role playing and playing games. 

 

 

Their language was forbidden in schools? So what did they use? Oh let me guess OURS! They wonder why their language needs 'saving from extinction'? Maybe because not only do they not teach it in schools but they punish the mere use of it with beatings! What did they expect to happen? It's like a certain Pharoah killing all the newborn boys and then years later wondering why the population is dwindling... I would also like to point out (for the record) my ancestors have never slaughtered anyone. Not recently anyway... And so now all of a sudden the language that they were forbidden to even speak is 'precious' to them and central to their culture. It's so special to them that they're STILL forbidding others to use it! Show me one instance where the language has been mocked and demeaned by Bionicle fans or Lego. As opposed to given new life and put on the global stage... And I fail to see how role-playing and Lego make people 'pathetic' too.

 

I'd suggest more pathetic are those who smother their own culture so close to death it's almost lost to them forever, and then after years spent trying to resuscitate it, grab another pillow...

 

No offence btw 

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

I didn't say 'censor'. I said autocorrect,

 

Is there a particularly big difference?

 

 

 

And I was asking whether it can be done, rather than whether it should be done.

 

Well, if you feel it shouldn't be done, why would you want or need to know whether it can be done?

 

 

 

Wow I wish I'd read this topic days ago. Just a thought though. Only about 10% of the posts in here are actually relevent to the original question being raised.

 

This could've been avoided had PrismWind avoided using the potentially inflammatory word.

 

 

 

Even if the word Tohunga DID mean priest, that's not really a special word is it?

 

It's special to the Maori because it belongs to their language which they wish to preserve.

 

 

 

Would the Western world be so utterly outraged by the Toyota Priest for example? Would it register as a car company making a mockery of Chrsitianity, God and western culture in general?

 

'Priest' is a slightly faulty example because it doesn't belong to one particular culture or religion. A word like 'rabbi' or 'imam' is more what you're getting at, and I think the cultures/religions they belong to probably would see it a mockery.

 

 

 

 

Our language was forbidden the use to us in schools. We got beaten for it. We saved our language from extinction 25 years back with an innovative programme adopted by many other cultures who were slaughtered by probably your ancestors. And now something so precious to us and central to our culture is mocked and demeaned by pathetic people role playing and playing games. 

They wonder why their language needs 'saving from extinction'? Maybe because not only do they not teach it in schools but they punish the mere use of it with beatings! What did they expect to happen? 

 

The quote claims, correctly or not, that punishment of the speaking of Maori was inflicted by non-Maori people, not by the Maori themselves. (Why would they want to stamp out their own language?)

 

 

 

It's like a certain Pharoah killing all the newborn boys and then years later wondering why the population is dwindling

 

That's an inaccurate portrayal, because the killing of the firstborn was intended to make the population dwindle.

[ALVIS]

I'd suggest more pathetic are those who smother their own culture so close to death it's almost lost to them forever, and then after years spent trying to resuscitate it, grab another pillow...

 

No offence btw 

 

Sir Kohran did a good job pointing out the flaw in the assumption on which you based your opinion: the Maori people did not oppress themselves, and it was the British Empire that forced them to speak English and not Maori. Really, I don't understand how you could possibly draw the conclusion that the Maori were responsible for their own suffering. It belies a fundamental lack of knowledge about First World natives and their history with imperialist European nations.

 

But what I really can't stand is your last statement. Your post is a hateful and ignorant rant that makes the Maori out to be a stupid and "pathetic" people -- you CANNOT simply attach "No offence btw" to the end of such a horrible, vitriolic post and expect that to make up for all of your offensive sentiments.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

That may be the case for you, but is it for others? Does the average 2000s kid associate the word 'Toa' with a Maori warrior or a Bionicle product manufactured by Lego?

 

Maybe. Maybe not. But they have a chance, don't they?

 

Right, Mr Patriot, you've done precisely what your country is famous for doing; charging in with an opinion without understanding what was said.

 

I said "If we can censor things, surely BZP can automatically autocorrect Tohunga to Matoran?" Of course, being me, I used twice as many words to say that. I never said that opposite-heaven should be uncensored, nor that it is not used as a profanity. But if there's a system in place that automatically censors swearwords (With hashes, in my case), surely that same system can change words to other words? It'd certainly be in keeping with TLG's stance, and the current canon.

 

Because auto-correcting a word and censoring a word are two different matters. You brought up a specific word which blurs the line between "spiritual" (the Maori words) and "insulting" (the one in question). As a result, I handled the second topic first, and then moved onto the first, giving examples across what followed. To use your own words, with a bit of re-writing:

 

I said, "We shouldn't, because it can actually lead to discussion." Of course, being me, I wrote multiple paragraphs to say that. I never said that the same system can't change words to other words, and I most certainly understood your opinion. Just because there's a system in place that automatically censors swearwords, this does not mean we should change words to other words. It'd only further remove the possible for discussing Maori culture from BIONICLE, and make historical talks more difficult.

 

So I apologize if you assumed that one paragraph was meant to be the be-all, end-all, response, but it was not.

 

I'd suggest more pathetic are those who smother their own culture so close to death it's almost lost to them forever, and then after years spent trying to resuscitate it, grab another pillow...

 

No offence btw 

 

Echoing the others (ALVIS, Sir Kohran): The Maori did not get themselves in their current situation.

 

The Maori themselves handled the matter as could be expected; the most publicity and the most money. And it worked. Fourteen years later, we're talking about them on the internet.

 

The girl herself has her own problems, but any problems with her, are with her. She does not represent all Maori, just as none of us are perfect representatives for our entire cultures. So while we can critique her for inaccuracies, and the errors in her logic, we cannot pin the blame on an entire collective.

 

Likewise, nobody here can accurately speak for the Maori people either. While there are certainly plenty of "enlightened" minds out there who like to think themselves able to speak on behalf of minorities or foreign cultures, they cannot.

 

The Maori people got what they wanted. There is no sense in either blatant misunderstanding of that position, or speaking on their behalf to fight for further reparations.

 

But more on topic:

 

But anyway, the Metru-Nui Matoran were shut away from the air and the light and and everything their bodies were used to. They didn't move or eat or think for a veeery long time. Muscles atrophy when not in use and the Matoran are living muscle so (somehow) the metallic parts of their body seem to have been affected in the same way. Yes it was clearly just a dues ex machina to get the Metru looking Matoran to transform into a 2001 Tohunga form between the different storylines but it's pretty believable I think. Here's a question though. I was ill on boxing day (just 2 glasses of champagne on xmas day and raging headache after!) and I actually spent the day on the sofa watching old movies. Between The Winter Soldier, The Lego Movie (again) and some TTTE for the boys I managed to rewatch the first 2 Bionicle movies. Now the ending already kind of confused me as the Toa Metru go straight to being Turaga while skipping over the whole Hordika/Visorak bit so I can't remember exactly what the timescale is meant to be. Even if we add the 3rd movie after Makuta's 'defeat' though it still seems to me that the Matoran were only in their spheres for a very short time. Can someone kindly jog my memory with regards to the time scale here and how it is they spend so long in the spheres?

 

The fact I can remember this fills me with shame:

 

The 2004 story arc is told via the books in flashback. The Turaga gather everyone together, and go through everything up until Legends of Metru-Nui. Afterwords, some of the important Matoran/Toa want to know just how everyone got to Metru-Nui, so they go through the 5th book (whichever one that was). Nuju doesn't want him to talk about Maze of Shadows, but he does so anyways.

 

The 7th book, something something Visorak, is Vakama telling Tahu about how much deeper the rabbit hole goes. They decided to tell the rest of the story after that, for the 8th book and Web of Shadows. The 2005 story arc is only told to a very small group; Hahli, Takanuva, and the Nuva I believe, but there might be a few more thrown in.

 

The reason for the sudden gap is because 2005 is shoved in between that gap, as a result of the story-telling method. It's mean to resolve the story, but not show all elements of the resolution.

 

Time Trap is the only exception; only Vakama knows what happened.

 

Now, as far as actual time in-story, rather than book time: We don't know. The Metru were Hordika for quite a long time, trying to fight for the rest of the Matoran spheres in the city. How long, we're not sure. Presumably, it was under a year, but we have no way of being certain. Headcanon topic is still up.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Toa Malachives]

Wow I wish I'd read this topic days ago. Just a thought though. Only about 10% of the posts in here are actually relevent to the original question being raised. Is it possible for a Mod to split this discussion into what the original discussion was about and the Maori debate? Because it seems that this is just one big off-topic mess right now!

 

But anyway, the Metru-Nui Matoran were shut away from the air and the light and and everything their bodies were used to. They didn't move or eat or think for a veeery long time. Muscles atrophy when not in use and the Matoran are living muscle so (somehow) the metallic parts of their body seem to have been affected in the same way. Yes it was clearly just a dues ex machina to get the Metru looking Matoran to transform into a 2001 Tohunga form between the different storylines but it's pretty believable I think. Here's a question though. I was ill on boxing day (just 2 glasses of champagne on xmas day and raging headache after!) and I actually spent the day on the sofa watching old movies. Between The Winter Soldier, The Lego Movie (again) and some TTTE for the boys I managed to rewatch the first 2 Bionicle movies. Now the ending already kind of confused me as the Toa Metru go straight to being Turaga while skipping over the whole Hordika/Visorak bit so I can't remember exactly what the timescale is meant to be. Even if we add the 3rd movie after Makuta's 'defeat' though it still seems to me that the Matoran were only in their spheres for a very short time. Can someone kindly jog my memory with regards to the time scale here and how it is they spend so long in the spheres?

 

Off-topic now to the topic being more prevalently discussed in here... I read through some of the comments by Maori people that were linked a little further up and they just come over as absolutely ridiculous. There is literally nothing 'sacred' about language. Even if the word Tohunga DID mean priest, that's not really a special word is it? Would the Western world be so utterly outraged by the Toyota Priest for example? Would it register as a car company making a mockery of Chrsitianity, God and western culture in general? No, I don't think so either... I don't think Lego really needed to back down but of course it made a lot more sense for them to do so and probably saved them millions over the alternative. I for one think the fault was with theMaori as opposed to Lego though. Seriously how sensitive can you get?!

 

On a serious note this is directly quoted from one of the comments on the link above;

 

Our language was forbidden the use to us in schools. We got beaten for it. We saved our language from extinction 25 years back with an innovative programme adopted by many other cultures who were slaughtered by probably your ancestors. And now something so precious to us and central to our culture is mocked and demeaned by pathetic people role playing and playing games.

 

 

Their language was forbidden in schools? So what did they use? Oh let me guess OURS! They wonder why their language needs 'saving from extinction'? Maybe because not only do they not teach it in schools but they punish the mere use of it with beatings! What did they expect to happen? It's like a certain Pharoah killing all the newborn boys and then years later wondering why the population is dwindling... I would also like to point out (for the record) my ancestors have never slaughtered anyone. Not recently anyway... And so now all of a sudden the language that they were forbidden to even speak is 'precious' to them and central to their culture. It's so special to them that they're STILL forbidding others to use it! Show me one instance where the language has been mocked and demeaned by Bionicle fans or Lego. As opposed to given new life and put on the global stage... And I fail to see how role-playing and Lego make people 'pathetic' too.

 

I'd suggest more pathetic are those who smother their own culture so close to death it's almost lost to them forever, and then after years spent trying to resuscitate it, grab another pillow...

 

No offence btw 

First off, the beatings were long ago and made by Pakeha (word for a not Maori New Zealand citizen, generally European). They are not forbidding others to use it, there is Maori language everywhere in New Zealand, they simply don't want their language to be used in the wrong way. Lego was not forbidden, they were simply told to use it in a good fashion, which Lego did and since many were already fine they kept them. In New Zealand we are taught a fair amount of Maori and a lot of their history, after many protests calling for it. In regard to giving them 'new life', the langue has a life. They didn't kill it, the Maori did excellent work to save it. "No offence btw <_<"?! Seriously!? You said really offensive things and just think that no offence will make a diffece?!