Creating an Okoto Language

[RahiSpeak]

Just a day or two ago, a topic started by -Takua- on deciphering the Gen2 runes made the front page. Naturally, it got a lot of traffic and many replies. There was, and still is, a great amount of excitement over a new BIONICLE language. Unfortunately, among many of the objective posts (most posts were either off topic or approval of adding a new language), the general concensus is that these symbols do not, as of this time, have any meaning and are simply decoration. Given the LEGO Group's aptness to heavily incorporate the old Matoran Language into the first generation before it became expected to do so, if these symbols do not mean anything, it is unlikely that they ever will. However, at least from what I have heard, LEGO has been known to accept fan input for the BIONICLE story from time to time. What I suggest is the creation of a fan-developed language, one using few other symbols outside of the ones featured in the shorts and inscribed on the Mask of Creation. This is really a time to be creative, so don't feel confined to the English alphabet (or grammar, for that matter). Get creative enough, and we just might be able to give a meaning to that endlessly repeating string of non-repeating characters. Before attempting to start this puzzler, I recommend seeing -Takua-'s post as well as SkullKid's (towards the end) as they are the most informative (there are a lot of posts). Even if LEGO still never gives the runes a meaning, this could be a sort of ongoing project/puzzle to give meaning to the meaningless; a "fanonical" language if you will, which is better than none at all. Feel free to post your thoughts even if they only are half baked. A fragment of an idea just may prove inspirational to someone else.

 

NOTE: There still is a chance that these symbols do indeed currently have a meaning, it is just unlikely.

Edited December 24, 2014 by RahiSpeak

[Fry]

I highly doubt that they are a language of any kind.

[Cambion]

I highly doubt that they are a language of any kind.

what part of "What I suggest is the creation of a fan-developed language" didn't you get? this isn't about speculating whether they're intended to be a language or not; we have another topic for that. this thread is for potentially putting one together ourselves.

 

on topic; i suspect Tolkien's already started on something involving the Okoto runes...i've kind of been waiting for him to post something about it and then build on that. of course, i might just get left hanging if he hasn't been working on anything, heh.

[Fry]

 

I highly doubt that they are a language of any kind.

what part of "What I suggest is the creation of a fan-developed language" didn't you get? this isn't about speculating whether they're intended to be a language or not; we have another topic for that. this thread is for potentially putting one together ourselves.

 

on topic; i suspect Tolkien's already started on something involving the Okoto runes...i've kind of been waiting for him to post something about it and then build on that. of course, i might just get left hanging if he hasn't been working on anything, heh.

 

Why would you want to make a language? What exactly is the point?

[bonesiii]

Fun, creativity, mental exercise... things like that.

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

Yeah, I've made up a few languages myself (half-languages, really.  I get the phonology and usually can't finish off the grammar)  

 

What kind of feel do we want for this new Okotan language?  The Matoran language, as we all know, was based mainly on Maori and other Polynesian languages, giving it a very island-y sound.  I fear that if we go in this direction again, the new language will end up being too similar to Matoran, but that if we choose a different inspiration, it won't fit with the Gen2 island theme.   

 

I would suggest a sort of Mayan language, since the symbols in the videos look mayan-inspired.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Spicy Salmon Samurai

[RahiSpeak]

Yes, indeed, they do look like Mayan symbols. For that reason I would like to do a little research on the Mayan language, specificaly, grammar. Currently, I am not too worried about phonetics as they can easily be added to the language's structure, whereas it is hard to add structure to sounds. As mentioned in the Okoto written language topic, there appear to be different symbols or strings of symbols on the golden-mask pedestals pictured on the new toa sets than those featured in the shorts. The most complete picture of these is on Tahu's packaging, although the picture on the BIONICLE website is not good enough to make them out. Also, until a comprehensive story is finally released, it will be impossible to actually give these symbols a meaning. After it is determined how these symbols should be read, words will be seperated from each other based upon agreed grammar. Meaning could be assigned to these new words only after more of the story is known. This should not be a problem, however, because syntax is the difficult part while the words themselves (other than for the all important stylistic purposes) can be quite arbitrary. I will be sure to give this subject some more thought. Hopefully, my next post will have some cronstructive ideas contained within it. Personally, I like puzzles, so I think a puzzle-like language would be interesting, but we shall see if such a thing is too complicated or if simple is simply better.

[RahiSpeak]

NOTE: I do not know how to post links to websites. If I think it is important, I will make a reference.

 

Honestly, when I typed the previous post, I only knew what the Mayan numerals looked like. All else was a mystery. But, I did my homework, and I found that the simple, small, blocky symbols in the videos look nothing like the elaborate, large, curly symbols featured in Mayan texts. With that in mind, I decided to learn more about Mayan scripts anyway. I cannot say that I completely understand it myself, but there are actually some interesting concepts that should be considered.

 

For starters, the Mayan languge was written in the form of logograms and syllables.Logograms are just symbols representing words. Given the simplicity and number of these Gen2 symbols, this probably is not a reasonable or even viable option. However, the idea of using syllables rather than an alphabet, to me, is a rather intruiging idea. Individual syllables would start with a consonant and end with a vowel. Often times, when two or more of these syllables were put together to make a word, if they ended in the same vowel, then the vowel was dropped from the last of them. Example: "ba" + "ka" = "bak" or "vo" + "ba" + "ka" = "vobak". Of course, some names start with vowels, so we would have to take some liberties with that. Keep in mind, this post is just what I have read. Another interesting tid-bit is that there were many ways to write the same thing; almost always the difference was solely stylistic. This often occured by combining the logograms with their syllabilic counterparts, sometimes for clarification, but again, mostly for style. Since, as I said, logograms are probably not ideal, this is more just something to keep in mind, although I would be interested to see a creative alternative to them. Perhaps a readily applicable fact is that the Mayans would write in blocks representing phrases. If you were paying attention to the BIONICLE shorts and examining the pedestals on the packaging, you may have noticed that the symbols were sometimes engraved within rectangular boxes, some of which were vertical and others horizontal. I have not examined these closely yet, so I cannot make any further conjectures. This post was meant to share some of the things I had learned about Mayan script to serve as a starting point to get some creative (and somewhat educated) juices flowing. However, I probably forgot some things and I didn't make as much headway as I would have liked, so when I have more information I will edit this post rather than create a new one. Also, I should probably mention that I have not yet found a language that resembles the Okotan one (then again, what did the Matoran language look like?). Still, I will keep looking. It would be helpful, however, to look up really any language to get inspiration on language structure to share with everyone else, which may just consist of me. Regardless, there are a lot of languages and it is hard for me to do it all by myself. I recommend searching for more ancient languages as they can be strange compared to modern languages and seem to fit the theme quite nicely. This is a really good site:

www.ancientscripts.com

Again, I will update this post later with either more information or with some more ideas directly pertaining to an Okoto language.

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean that they looked like Mayan script as much as they look like Mayan Motifs.  Kind of like the individual parts of some of the logograms, albeit less curved, but it definitely gives me a Mayan impression at least.  

 

As for the grammar, Mayan languages are agglutinative and polysynthetic, in which independent words like nouns are built upon with smaller parts which have independent meaning, but do not function as words on their own.  This makes long words with very specific meanings due to the number of "modifiers" placed on a single noun.  It also has a Verb-Object-Subject sentence structure.

 

For a simple example, lets say the word Oko in means island, and -to means big/great.  -to cannot stand by itself, but when added to Oko, it changes the meaning slightly. 

Oko + -to = Okoto (Great Island)

 

To take it a step further, we could say that:

 Ki = I

Tsuya = to travel

-k = 1st person past tense marker

-tok = intensifier

-wa = definite article (the)

 

Tsuyaktok ki Okotowa = I travelled the great island long ago (lit. travel.PAST.long  I  island.great.DEF)

 

I realize this probably doesn't sound very Mayan, but this is basically how the grammar would work.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Spicy Salmon Samurai

[SailorQuaoar]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean that they looked like Mayan script as much as they look like Mayan Motifs.  Kind of like the individual parts of some of the logograms, albeit less curved, but it definitely gives me a Mayan impression at least.  

 

As for the grammar, Mayan languages are agglutinative and polysynthetic, in which independent words like nouns are built upon with smaller parts which have independent meaning, but do not function as words on their own.  This makes long words with very specific meanings due to the number of "modifiers" placed on a single noun.  It also has a Verb-Object-Subject sentence structure.

 

For a simple example, lets say the word Oko in means island, and -to means big/great.  -to cannot stand by itself, but when added to Oko, it changes the meaning slightly. 

Oko + -to = Okoto (Great Island)

 

To take it a step further, we could say that:

 Ki = I

Tsuya = to travel

-k = 1st person past tense marker

-tok = intensifier

-wa = definite article (the)

 

Tsuyaktok ki Okotowa = I travelled the great island long ago (lit. travel.PAST.long  I  island.great.DEF)

 

I realize this probably doesn't sound very Mayan, but this is basically how the grammar would work.

This isn't Nahuatl at all. This is Japanese.

 

Making an Okotan language is pointless because there are little to no special terms being used this time around. There would be nothing to draw from.

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

Sorry, I really have no experience with agglutinative languages at all.  However, if Bionicle somehow became viking-based, I'd be set

[IcarusBen]

Earlier Matoran language was so much easier. Just assuming Rahi is a compound word and adding in a word for island (say, Oko) we get this lovely gem here.

 

Voyahi Okonui.

 

Or... Voyara Okonui.

 

Voyahi (Voya, meaning "voyage," hi or ra meaning "us") Okonui (Oko meaning "island" and "nui" meaning great) literally translate to "Voyage us island great) but can be better translated to "We travel to the Great Island."

 

With the words we see here, on the other hand... sheesh. Okoto. That's all we get. Okoto and Toa.

 

LAME.

[RahiSpeak]

Well, I said that I would edit my previous post rather than create a new one, but it appears that this topic has gotten some new activity. Thus, new post.

 

I must say, Spicy Salmon Samurai, you certainly have a much better handle on the subject than I do. Those were some pretty interesting observations and I think they would make an Okotan language much more interesting as well.

 

Since I posted last I have rewatched those BIONICLE shorts and I have come to a troubling, yet somewhat obvious, realization. What I had expected to find on the walls of the Temple of Time and other such places is blocks of symbols each containg two vertical rows; mirrors of each other but with a random offset. Instead, these vertical rows were perfect mirrors of each other and simply flipped upside-down. Each block was of match to another. Now that alone does not cripple or undermine the developement of an Okotan language. If each symbol were assigned a number, a mathematical procedure might be able to turn the repeating pattern into something usable, which would be fun to try. Unfortunately, these blocks of symbols are the same EVERYWHERE on Okoto. Unless someone can think of a reliable way to give these symbols a contextual meaning, that just may put an end to this endeavor. But then again, why couldn't the inscriptions in the Temple of Time be the same as those on some desert ruin? They are all related, right? So anyway, things to think about.

 

Quick recap:

-Symbols are in the same pattern everywhere.

-Need a mathematical proceedure to jumble up the pattern.

-Must be either contextual or a repetition.

 

To SailorQuaoar:

I already mentioned earlier that we don't need to know anything about the story to begin forming the language structure; the way it is read. Can we give that any meaning at this time? No, but meaning can be completely arbitrary; dog could mean cat and 2+2 could equal five (the word or representation, not the value).

 

And to IcarusBen:

Perhaps "Okoto" is not the most interesting word in the world, but of course, "pan" or "sheet" are not too much fun to say are they? Not every word is going to be as exciting as "Voyahi Okonui", but some can be even more so. The thing is, we haven't really been given any words other than "Okoto" and "Toa"; that's a lot of wiggle-room!

[Akavakaku]

We could say "Krata" means spider, just for laughs.

[Kayori alias Equalize]

Im doing a dictionary here and add new words when they are invented.

Please tell me in your next replies (or per personal message) if you have ideas for new OkoFanLang words (or english words) and/or approve/disapprove words.

(Scroll down for Legend)

 

Okoto Fan Language Official Dictionary:

English - Okoto Speak

OkoFanLang - None

??? - Toa (By Lego) R: (/)

??? - Okoto (By Lego) R: (/)

Spider - Krata (By Akavakaku) R: (/)

Placeholder - None (By - ) R: (/)

Placeholder - None (By - ) R: (/)

Placeholder - None (By - ) R: (/)

Placeholder - None (By - ) R: (/)

Placeholder - None (By - ) R: (/)

 

Legend:

Placeholder = This is a Placeholder for new words.

Word = This is the English word.

None = Has to be invented yet.

Word = I dont like it. But if the majority likes it its okay. (Only disapproved by me)

Word = This word is bad. Has to be reinvented. (Disapproved by multiple people)

Word = I like it. Still needs Community - approvement. (Only approved by me)

Word = Good. (Approved by multiple people)

Word = Perfect. This is probably the best we can come up with. (Approved by very much people)

Word = We dont have a real english word for that yet./This word is meaningless right now.

??? = Help! Im not sure what this means in English.

R: (/) = Rating (None)

R: (++/--) = Rating (Some)

+ = Approved rated

- = Disapproved rated

(By: Username/Real Name) = Who invented the Word.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Kayori alias Equalize

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

I think we can reasonably assume Toa means Master in Gen2. Tahu, Toa of Fire = Tahu, Master of Fire.

[IcarusBen]

I think Masters are a specific subset of Toa, i.e. all Masters are Toa, not all Toa are Masters.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

Good thought, but what is the difference? As soon as Tahu lands in Episode 2, the Protector of Fire tells him that he is "Tahu, Master of Fire." However, the character animations say "become Master of [insert element here]. So there's a bit of a contradiction that obscures things somewhat.

 

Anyway, getting a bit off-topic here, this debate might fit better in bonesiii's video findings thread.

[RahiSpeak]

Kayori, this is a good idea and a very necessary one at that. Unfortunately, I think it is just a little early. I say this because it may be rather difficult to match up the words with the Okotan script. Nonetheless, the language does need a sort of phonetic style. In that respect, your endeavor could prove quite fruitful immediately, so I encourage you to go ahead, but it is too early to give meaning to specific words. I'm not sure how much of this topic you have read, however, it may give you a better understanding of the direction this "project" has been taking. But really, keep compiling your dictionary and taking votes on (currently meaningless) words. I would actually like to make some suggestions myself, but I don't have any ideas at the moment. If this post is somehow confusing to you, I'll be happy to clarify.

Edited January 2, 2015 by RahiSpeak

[Kayori alias Equalize]

@All Topic: Grammar Idea: ["persons"]

I dont want to be lazy but we could say we have a verb: reyo (lets say that means to be) and for the ["persons"]

(is that the right word if no i must have forget what that means in english)

we just add an ["ending"](i mean the negative of prefix).

So ta reyoki means i am ,za reyole means you are and ke reyosu means he/she/it is and so on...

 

@RahiSpeak Topic: Im okay with that

Kayori, this is a good idea and a very necessary one at that. Unfortunately, I think it is just a little early. I say this because it may be rather difficult to match up the words with the Okotan script. Nonetheless, the language does need a sort of phonetic style. In that respect, your endeavor could prove quite fruitful immediately, so I encourage you to go ahead, but it is too early to give meaning to specific words. I'm not sure how much of this topic you have read, however, it may give you a better understanding of the direction this "project" has been taking. But really, keep compiling your dictionary and taking votes on (currently meaningless) words. I would actually like to make some suggestions myself, but I don't have any ideas at the moment. If this post is somehow confusing to you, I'll be happy to clarify.

Yeah you´re right it might be too early but we can leave the dictionary behind for later and go on with inventing the grammar and

style of the language itself. I dont have any Problem with that , its just the thing i would do since i dont have

any experience with languages (and the grammar of these [except english and german]) and inventing a language.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Kayori alias Equalize

[IcarusBen]

I think we need a Gen 1 dictionary first (made by the community, building upon Tolkien's project) and hopefully, by the time we've finished that, hopefully Gen2 has some new words we can use. Right now, we only have Okoto (a proper noun) and Toa (which, in Gen2, has no meaning other than fan intrepretation)

[RahiSpeak]

Here's news for you everone: the new BIONICLE app is out and there is a plethora of new symbols to be had. They are easiest to see in the Gali levels and on the gates. As I am typing this, it occurs to me that I did not write them down, so I do not know how many there are or what they look like... yet. If I remember correctly, there are some symbols that are similar to the ones in the shorts. Still a repeating pattern, but what else is new? Anyway, haven't had a chance to crank out that "mathematical procedure" yet. Nonetheless, keep those ideas comin'!

[Akavakaku]

Ok, I think based on what we have so far we can start looking for the language's basic building blocks. One thing that seems likely is that consonant sounds must be followed by vowels, and vowels may not be followed by vowels. Based on our tiny sample size, of course. But that's not all! We can also start sorting out which sounds are and aren't used. One thing that stood out is that in the videos, the E in "Lewa" was pronounced the same as the I in "Gali" and "Ekimu," but differently from the E in "Ekimu." Since the Toa appear to be foreign to Okoto, it would then seem likely that the result of this mixup is that the Okoto language has an E sound, but one that can only be used at the beginning of a word, and it seems to sound like the I in the English "big." When faced with pronouncing Lewa's name, originally "lay-wa", the Okotans choose not to try and say the difficult (as well as incorrect) "lih-wa" and instead make the approximation "lee-wa."

 

This, in turn, implies that Okotan is a language with both written vowels and consonants. Now, the next part is pure speculation, but what if the titles "The Mask Maker" and "The Mask Hoarder" aren't mere titles but translations of their names, much as "The Great Spirit" was? In this case it's more difficult to translate between the two, especially since they share the word "mask" but "Ekimu" and "Makuta" share no obvious group of letters. Any ideas on possibilities of this would be appreciated.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Akavakaku

[IcarusBen]

EKIMU - noun  - Corruption of Makimu - Derived from ma, the, eki, maker, and mu, mask.

 

MAKUTA - noun - Derived from ma, the, mu, mask, and kita, hoarder.

[Akavakaku]

Ooh, nice! But it might still take some explaining as to why "mask" follows "maker" but precedes "hoarder." And then what would "to make" and "to hoard" be?

 

Here's my own take.

 

eki-mu: mask maker. From eki: mask, and mu: doer, maker

eki-mu > ekimu

 

mu-eki-uta: mask hoarder. From mu: doer, maker, eki: mask, and uta: to keep, to hoard

mu-eki-uta > makuta

 

The contraction of these words follows a defined rule set. When a vowel joins a consonant, no change is necessary. When a vowel joins a vowel, only the second vowel is retained. If the second vowel is E, which cannot be inside an Okotan word, it changes, in this case to A. But the precedent of "lee-wa" suggests it can also become an I.

 

This also gives us some insight into Okotan grammar. Here are some rules we can derive:

 

Affixes such as "mu" change in meaning as prefixes or suffixes. As a suffix, mu is "maker," while as a prefix it is the more general "doer." Perhaps suffixes add concrete, literal meanings, while prefixes add abstract meanings.

 

As far as we can tell, nouns precede verbs. More data is necessary before we can say that with certainty.

[JRRT]

There seems to be some inconsistency between the original intent of the topic-poster in this topic and the direction that the discussion has taken, and I guess it’s mainly due to a failure to define the word “language”. Looking at RahiSpeak’s original post, the intent of this topic was to derive a workable, fan-made writing-system based on the set of symbols/glyphs evidenced in the new Bionicle media. To be clear, a writing-system is very different from a language: the former is a systematic means of representing the latter graphically, and the two are by no means equivalent. As far as I can see, the topic seems to have veered away from developing a writing-system and toward trying to develop a language itself, which is a completely different task.

 

Personally, I’d say the original goal of the topic—i.e. the development of a non-canon writing-system that is usable by Bionicle fans—is definitely an achievable one, with the resources available. The goal of creating a language for the inhabitants of Okoto, on the other hand, is less feasible, simply because we have very little to work with at this time. At the very least, there are three authentically Okotoan names (Ekimu, Makuta, Okoto), but with no indications as to what these names might mean. We could also include the names of the six Toa, despite their ostensibly foreign origin, since the name of Makuta seems to have been carried over unchanged from G1 to G2. However, until we have more information about the relation between G1 and G2 (is G2 connected to G1 at all? Are the Toa of G2 the same as the Toa Mata from G1?), no definite conclusions can be made there.

 

That said, there’s some really interesting discussion here! For what it’s worth, I suppose I've made a slight contribution to the original goal of developing a writing-system in this recent blog post. As for the newly-emergent second goal, let it not be said that I have anything against fan-creativity. =p The idea that the names Ekimu and Makuta could be translated as “Mask Maker” and “Mask Hoarder” feels like it could have some traction, and IcarusBen and Akavakaku have already given some proposals on that subject, so here is some critique of those proposals, followed by an account that builds on what’s already been discussed:

 

IcarusBen derives ekimu from makimu < ma-eki-mu (eki “maker”, ma an additional morpheme “the”) and makuta from mamukuta < ma-mu-kuta (kuta “hoarder”, which I assume was typo’d as kita in the original post). These derivations require some rather complex phonological rules. First, a rule that deletes /m/ in initial position in some cases (*maekimu > *aekimu > ekimu) but not all cases (mamukuta > makuta, unless the deletion affects the entire morpheme ma after it has influenced the vowel of mu, mamukuta > mamakuta > makuta). Also, I don’t feel like it’s necessary to assume an extra morpheme to signify “the”, since the only purpose it serves is to (presumably) alter the vowel of mu in ma-mukuta. Otherwise, it isn’t very well-supported.

 

Akavakaku goes a different route: ekimu < eki-mu (eki “mask”, mu “doer, maker”), makuta < muakiuta < mu-eki-uta (mu “doer, maker”, eki “mask”, uta “to keep, hoard”). Two phonological rules are required: (1) the first vowel in a sequence of two vowels is deleted, and (2) /e/ becomes /a/ word-internally. This is a more optimal version of the facts. However, the assumption that there is a phonotactic restriction on the appearance of /e/ word-internally seems pretty tenuous, since it’s based only on the observation that /e/ doesn’t appear word-internally in any of the three Okotoan names in evidence thus far, and also on the observation that the narrator in the Bionicle media pronounces Lewa’s name as “lee-wah” (phonetically: ['li.wa]) rather than the expected “leh-wah” or “lay-wah”. Personally, I wouldn’t put much stock in the pronunciation of character names in media, since there has always been inconsistency there (The pronunciation of Lewa’s name in particular has ranged from “lee-wah” to “lay-wah” to “loo-wah”, and that is clearly due to interference from English pronunciation, accent, and spelling). That said, Akavakaku brings up the important point that there is a syntactic contrast between the names ekimu and makuta that must be accounted for, and that this might line up with a semantic contrast like concrete vs. abstract (similar to how it worked in the Matoran Language).

 

Alright, now that I’ve reviewed the previous accounts, here’s an alternate version of the facts which draws upon some elements of both. The first challenge is, of course, to identify a common element in both names to signify the morpheme “mask”. I’ll start by noting that both names incorporate a discrete sequence /m+vowel/: mu in eki-mu and ma in ma-kuta. We can postulate that these in fact represent manifestations of a single morpheme mu/ma, which would then provide an optimal candidate for “mask”. In order to make this connection a bit more solid, it might be prudent to devise some minor sound changes which derive the two variants mu and ma from an older common form, say *mau “mask”.

 

Rule 1a: /au/ becomes /u/ at the ends of words (*eki-mau > ekimu)

Rule 1b: /au/ becomes /a/ elsewhere (*mau-kuta > makuta)

 

I think these rules are a bit simpler and more general than rules that have been proposed thus far, since they are based on a single sound change (the postulated sequence /au/ becoming something else), rather than multiple disconnected sound changes (deletion of word-initial /m/; deletion of the first vowel in a sequence of two vowels; /e/ > /a/ word-internally, etc.).

 

So, having identified a morpheme for “mask”, all that’s left is to identify morphemes signifying “maker” in the case of ekimu and “hoarder” in the case of makuta. This task is in some ways simpler, since we need only take the remainder after removing mu/ma: eki “maker” in the former case and kuta “hoarder” in the latter. Slightly more difficult is reconciling the semantic and syntactic properties of these (alleged) compounds. For example, semantically, the compound “mask-maker” is equivalent to that of “mask-hoarder”, since both indicate concepts where an agent (a maker or hoarder) affects an object; namely, masks. However, according to the assumptions made above with ma/mu (deriving it from *mau as the common element “mask”), both of these words have contrasting syntactic compositions, despite their assumedly similar semantic composition. That is, the word ekimu places the element eki “maker” before the element mu “mask”, while the word makuta places the element kuta “hoarder” after the element ma “mask”. How can we resolve this issue?

 

One way is to devise some additional rules of syntactic and semantic composition for the Okotoan language, taking as inspiration the rules which apply in the Matoran Language with respect to how adjectives modify nouns; namely the fact that adjectives placed before a noun appear to have a “concrete” or “physical” interpretation (e.g. nui-jaga “big scorpion”) while adjectives placed after a noun appear to have an “abstract” or “non-physical” interpretation (e.g. mata-nui “great spirit”). If we transplant these rules from Matoran into Okotoan, we can actually get some pretty good results, as follows:

 

Rule 2a: A modifying element placed before another element receives a concrete/physical interpretation (eki-mu “mask maker”; eki is to be interpreted as a “maker”, “creator”, or “fabricator”, in a physical sense, of masks)

Rule 2b: A modifying element placed after another element receives an abstract/non-physical interpretation (ma-kuta “mask hoarder”; kuta is to be interpreted as a “hoarder”, “keeper”, or “collector”, in an abstract sense, of masks)

 

With these two rules in place, we can explain the differing syntactic structure of eki-mu “mask maker” and ma-kuta “mask hoarder” without sacrificing the previous two phonological sound-change rules which allowed us to identify the common element *mau “mask” in the first place. Furthermore, if we were to reverse the situation for each name (i.e. place eki after *mau and kuta before *mau), we could derive some slightly different results:

 

1. *mau-eki > maeki? “mask initiator/originator” (assuming that the abstract/non-physical interpretation of eki would be something like “initiator/originator” as opposed to its concrete/physical interpretation of “maker/creator/fabricator”)

 

2. *kuta-mau > kutamu “mask holder/grasper” (assuming that the concrete/physical interpretation of kuta would be something like “holder/grasper” as opposed to its abstract/non-physical interpretation of “hoarder/keeper/collector”)

 

I think the next step would be to take the two resulting terms eki “maker/originator” and kuta “hoarder/keeper”, both of which are clearly agentive in that they express agents which are related to concepts of “making” on the one hand and “hoarding” on the other, and try to dissolve them a bit more (common element /k+vowel/, ki in e-ki, ku in ku-ta, perhaps a couple more phonological rules to derive ki/ku from a common form kui “agentivity; -er”, leaving e- “making/originating” and -ta “hoard, group”, which might provide a basis for a noun-verb distinction...). But I’ll leave that for a later post, perhaps, and see what people think of this rather verbose alternative account instead. =p

 

JRRT

Edited January 10, 2015 by Tolkien

[IcarusBen]

SNIP!

 

Actually, the idea behind my corruption of Makuta is that it's originally spelled Mamukita, but the mu and kita are merged into kuta, a corrupted form after centuries of mispronunciation and misspelling of mukita, literally "mask hoarder." ma is the Okotan word for "the." Kita isn't misspelled, it just got fudged up after a few hundred years.

 

Ekimu is another corruption, this time derived from ma ekimu, literally "the creator of masks." Again, centuries of linguistic evolution corrupted it first into mekimu, then finally into ekimu.

 

Therefore, the basic word for mask is mu. Makes sense to me, but Tolkien appears to be more well versed in linguistics. I'd like to believe kanohi was still a word, but considering I just deduced that mu meant mask, in order for kanohi to still be a word, it'd have to mean something different.

 

Why don't we create a new topic for discussing linguistics and leave this one for discussing what the symbols actually mean.

[Akavakaku]

But there's already another thread trying to decode the symbols. Anyway, I'd first like to say that I'm a huge fan of your work on Matoran, Tolkien, and it inspired my choice of the literal/figurative split for prefixes and suffixes.

 

As for the meanings of Makuta and Ekimu, I don't think we can at this point say any specific interpretation is most likely, and I freely concede that name pronunciations had no intended meaning. But then, neither did the names themselves (except those derived from real words).

 

But the main reason for preferring my own system is that it has standardized rules and gets a connection out of both the "m_" and "k_" syllables found in Makuta and Ekimu. After all, the (supposed) translations both contain the ideas "mask" and "agent," so I thought assigning the two phonetic links to the two meaning links would be appropriate.

 

Anyway, just for fun here are the reversed names using my interpretation:

 

mu-eki: masker; mask giver. From eki: mask, and mu: doer, maker

mu-eki > maki/ variant miki

 

eki-uta-mu: mask gatherer; mask collector. From mu: doer, maker, eki: mask, and uta: to keep, to hoard

eki-uta-mu > ekutamu

Edited January 11, 2015 by Akavakaku

[Toa Komali]

Well now this is a cool idea. I've toyed with a notion of trying to create a fictional language. I'd love to help but linguistics is not a subject I know too well. Hmm but from the sound of it its far simpler a task than I thought. 

 

By no means do I mean it'll be easy but it will be fun. Hmm the way things are shaping so far Okoto is sounding much live Dohvazul. The language of the elder scrolls dragons. With each syllable being part of a larger word.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

This is really cool. I've never really thought about the linguistics of what I had been reading. True there are examples even for the borrowed words for the English language. Me personally I don't think I could ever do that myself. Then again, I've never tried. I guess making a possible language from scratch could be easier as one could make up their own rules as I have seen here. Deciphering a language is a but harder as you have to pick at every single word and how it relates to every other word. Be it in a sentence, or paragraph. Then format it into a legible manner for your own language and syntax.

[RahiSpeak]

Sorry for not posting anything for a while; busy, busy, busy! I have been checking in every day to see if there has been any new activity, but I did not want to post anything until I had something worth sharing. Now it seems that there has been more activity since my last post than, well, ever, so there is a lot of ground to cover.

 

IcarusBen, Akavakaku, and Tolkien, I have to say that I like the way that you all think! If we continue to think things through in a similar way, this project stands a good chance of success. Obviously, and as Tolkien pointed out, I was on a completely different page and was talking about the Okotoan script rather than the linguistics, which leads me to share the results of my endeavor to jumble up those repeating symbols. It seemed like a good idea at the time to use some math or logic to mix them up. Then when I began to think about the actual theory behind it, some things became apparent. To start, most of the ways that I could think of would require someone to read the script from the beginning to understand it. Others would begin to repeat sequence after a few iterations. After much thought, it became apparent that the laws of logic (and by association, the universe) declare that such a thing is both impractical and more importantly impossible. Good news is that while this sequence of symbols does repeat, we could simply stagger the length of words to make it more non-repeat in meaning. Why the villagers would do this could have any number of story reasons. I do not remember the number of symbols in the Temple of Time, but if there are six, then there could be some symbolic reference to the Toa. That's just speculation, it really could be for any reason but the point is one can give it a reason.

 

As far as starting a new topic goes, IcarusBen, this would be a really good idea, except that my idea for scrambling the sequence has pretty much died and therefore is wholly dependent on words and grammar, which would be the subject of any new topic created. So great idea, but no longer necessary.

 

And for those of you who don't have any experience in creating a language but want to help anyway, you're really like the rest of us (except maybe Tolkien). Just use similar trains of logical thought and representation that the above posts used if you can and remember that it does not have to be anything like English.

 

I'm sorry that I have not been more productive here, but this new direction should change that. However, it should be noted that I have a busy schedule the next five weeks.

 

Keep up the fantastic work everyone! Hopefully I will be able to bring some meat to the table soon!

[IcarusBen]

Here's one;

 

TAHU - noun - from tah, fire and mu, mask - lit. Fire Mask - corruption of tahmu

[Akavakaku]

I don't think the Toa's names are Okotan, since they don't appear to be native. But maybe...

 

toa: master; adept. 

 

If "Toa" is the Okotan word for "master," then it would explain the Okotans calling them by those two titles interchangeably. Furthermore, since the Toa themselves regard "Toa" and "master" as two separate things, it would explain their intentions to become the masters of their respective elements.

[Regitnui]

Here's one;

 

TAHU - noun - from tah, fire and mu, mask - lit. Fire Mask - corruption of tahmu

I meant to being this up. In this iteration, the Toa are told their names by the protectors, meaning that Tahu, Gali, Lewa, Pohatu, Onua and Kopaka could be Okotonese words too. In-universe, the names aren't recycled, but new

[Prowl Nightwolf]

I agree to an extent. Seeing as how we only see Tahu's intro and not the others we can only assume the other Toa had similar interactions with their respective Protectors. Thus it could easily be thought that the Toa were given their names from the locals. Thus names that derive themselves from the native language. So ask yourself. Are the element names their full name or the first segment as with the Matoran variant? Ta-Fire, Onu-Earth, Po-sand/stone, Ga-Water, ect...

 

On this side of the forth wall we know that they are so named because they are the orginal Toa names from Gen1. But what does that say for the possible new language. Again we need more knowledge. Do the separate villages/tribes have names and do they relate to their respective elements? If so how do they relate if at all to their respective Toa. So far all I know is that this time the masks are as of yet not called Kanohi only "masks of power". Also what do these masks provide as a power? Are they only elemental or do they have other uses.

 

And I think I forgot where I was going with this. Anyway. To speculate if the Toa names are native for their respective element that may also mean that the mask is named Mask of Tahu... lol. Are the Toa's names given to them by the Protectors or whomever made up the legend? Is Tahu so named because that is what the Protected said or because that is who the legend said he was.

 

A better example could be my name. If I was a toa from Japan would I be called Prowl Nightwolf there because that is my name or would they call me Yoru Ouka a possible rough translation.

[IcarusBen]

If Tahu washed up with the Mask of Fire, a good name for him might be Fire Mask or, perhaps, Oh-My-Gosh-Why-Is-He-So-Dang-Tall-Compared-To-Us.

 

Yeah, my money's on Fire Mask.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

well he didn't wash up he crashed either in a lava spring or flaming crater based on the fire-ish glow behind him. So... Don't know...

[IcarusBen]

Sorry, my brain autocorrected to Gen1 logic. I forget these Toa come FROM SPACE! instead of from across the sea.

[RahiSpeak]

 

Here's one;

TAHU - noun - from tah, fire and mu, mask - lit. Fire Mask - corruption of tahmu

I meant to being this up. In this iteration, the Toa are told their names by the protectors, meaning that Tahu, Gali, Lewa, Pohatu, Onua and Kopaka could be Okotonese words too. In-universe, the names aren't recycled, but new

I would say that this is probably right. The Toa were told their names and are therefore probably Okotan, which is good because it gives us something to work with.

 

Anyway, I thought that I would point out that the names of the Toa appear to hint at this being a gendered language. If you take a look at their names, five of the Toa have names that end in "a" or "u", but Gali's name ends in "i" (pronounced "ee"). This could be one of the feminine endings while "a" and "u" could be some of the masculine ones.

 

As a slight detour, I have noticed the interchangeable use of "Okotan" and "Okotoan". We will probably never misunderstand each other because of this, but it is probably a good idea to have some agreed upon terminology.

 

I would like to also point out that these are all English translations. Therefore, it is not necessary to corrupt certain words for their components and pronunciation to match. As an example: tah + mu> tahmu. This could actually work if that were a soft "m" (don't let your lips touch). Since no such sound exists in English, we would naturally say it as close as we can using English sounds (which would be "Tahu"). Furthermore, Kopaka could be "Kopakh", Lewa could be "Leheewa", Pohatu could be "Pohatzu", and Gali could be "Gaiali". I know that one of these conflicts with my "gendered language" theory, but I am just trying to make a point. The point is that these words and names may contain non-English sounds.

 

If all of the Toa had some form of "mu"(mask) within their names, IcarusBen's idea of "Tahmu" would actually be a good idea providing that "mu" meant both mask and master/controller (rather than "Toa"). After all, the Toa must become masters and from the videos it appears that their masks are what have the real power. So the masks are both masks and masters/controllers while the Toa by wearing the masks become masters. "Mu" essentially would be something along the line of a Gen1 "mask of power" but could also refer to a being. Exactly which one is talking about if only one can be refered to would be determined by context. Still, "mu" doesn't seem to repeat too often within Toa names.

Edited January 14, 2015 by RahiSpeak

[IcarusBen]

Tahu, Onua, Pohatu.

 

I'd imagine TAH is fire, PO is stone (and HA means something like Warrior, so Po+Ha+T/Mu=Mask of the Stone Warrior) and... Well, I'm not quite sure about Onua.