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Theory: G2 a Far Future Continuation of G1


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What follows is a theory I've been thinking about since the release of the first BIONICLE 2015 videos, and for that reason the post may be quite long. It is also my first thread so if the writing style is hard to read, I apologise. Anyway:

 

THE BASIC IDEA

My theory is that Generation 2 is actually set in the same universe and continuity as Generation 1, but enough years forward in the future that the events of G1 will not need to be mentioned in order to understand G2.

 

BUT, DIDN'T LEGO SAY G2 IS A REBOOT?

I think many fans of G1 would like G2 to be canonically related somehow to the previous story. LEGO know this, so are likely to have done this somehow. Although they have stated this is a "reboot", I believe that is wordplay to mean "you don't need to know G1 to understand G2, and you would not know that there was a G1 just by following the story of G2".

 

THE MAIN THEORY, AND EVIDENCE

 

1) Teridax, the Golden Skinned Being and Makuta

My first point regards the Golden Skinned Being (GSB) from G1, and how its golden colouration and powers of control are similar to G2's "Makuta".

-Teridax created the GSB before the final battle, however it did not take part in that battle. That implies it had another purpose, which I believe could be a backup body, in case Teridax lost the battle and had to leave the GSR. However, Teridax didn't plan to be defeated in a way that destroyed the Core Processor holding his Antidermis. That destruction meant some Antidermis was lost. After some time composing himself, Teridax in Antidermis form heads to find the GSB, losing more Antidermis on the way. He manages to take over the mind of the GSB, but the Antidermis he lost earlier encoded many of his memories. He now thinks his name is "Makuta", and only remembers his original purpose of helping the Matoran. He becomes a mask maker and forges a mask for himself that embodies his power of Control. (As a side note, the GSB took control of the Toa Mahri, so if this theory is accurate then Makuta in G2 may control five corrupted Toa.)

 

2) The island of Okoto and Spherus Magna

-Okoto could be anywhere. However, this theory suggests that it is an island off the coast of the Spherus Magna mainland. It appears to have formed from its volcano, so requires some tectonic activity. It would be a nice reference if it was in the huge circle of ocean where Aqua Magna rejoined the planet (which would presumably have residual tectonic activity from the heat of Aqua Magna being reshaped to fit into the hole in Spherus Magna), so that Okoto floats in the same (now not so) Endless Ocean that Mata Nui did.

 

3) The villagers, and why "Air" is now "Jungle"

This regards how the Protectors seem more similar to Agori than Matoran.

-Firstly, the Protectors can give birth, grow from children and age. This suggests that they are organic beings like Agori, who could also reproduce etc. Matoran are biomechanical and can not reproduce etc. (As an aside, this is good evidence that G2 is not a rerun of the G1 story as some theorise, because if it were, why not use Matoran?) The armour and Earth Elemental Blaster fit the description of "technological implants" like the Agori got.

-Secondly, the G1 Jungle Tribe has passed on its name to the Jungle villagers, despite them having Air elemental powers (evidenced by Air Elemental Blaster and Protector "Jungle Mask", not "Mask of Jungle" as with the other masks).

-Thirdly, enough time has passed since G1 in order for the intelligent Zesk to have evolved back to their non-beast form. They became known as Stone villagers to avoid the association with their beast-like Sand Tribe past and to reflect the elemental abilities Ekimu granted them. The similar armour that all the tribes wear hides any remaining differences.

 

4) Why the Toa are even more familiar than they currently seem

Concerning their arrival

-Firstly, the G2 Toa look like upgrades of the G1 Toa, not rebuilds. The addition of gold armour parts in G1 indicated a disinguished Toa team, something the Mata definitely would have counted as after the reforming of Spherus Magna, and were possibly given new armour before G2 to recognise that.

-Secondly, the references to the past, and the Vahi, imply that this is the same Toa team from the past.

-Thirdly, the Toa in G2 have memory loss and that could include forgetting that their masks have avilities like shielding etc.

-Fouthly, the Toa according to this theory are still biomechanical. Therefore they are immortal, which explains why the mortal Protectors see them as "timeless" heroes. It also explains why the Protectors are surprised that the Toa survived a crash-landing - biological Protectors are more fragile beings, so would not survive a similar landing.

-Lastly, as a side note, in G1 astrology was not a thing. If that holds true for G2, then the requirements that the "planets align" could have a non-mystical explanation. The "Toa Planets" could actually have been the Toa themselves, orbiting Spherus Magna in canisters or space stations (a similar idea to G1's Red Star - I imagine that the planets did not disappear when the Toa arrived, so something must remain that the Toa were ejected from). The "planets" must align overhead before you summon the Toa, because otherwise they will fall from space onto the wrong island!

 

5) Ekimu and his love of elemental masks

This section is about the fact that gold elemental masks are supposedly better than non-gold elemental masks.

-The regular Toa masks do not have to actually be masks of their elements. As mentioned above, they could be the G1 masks. The masks still enhance the natural elemental abilities of the users, but that is because any Kanohi helps channel a Toa's elemental abilities. The Protectors have mistakenly told the Toa that their regular masks are elemental because the protector masks ARE elemental.

-If the regular Toa masks aren't elemental, then that leaves it free for the golden masks to be the Elemental Great Kanohi that were even possible to exist in G1. They need not be of a new, higher power level above the regular Kanohi. These masks will of course boost the Toa's elemental ability because it gives the Toa access to more power on top of what they have innately. However, future plot lines could involve the Toa remembering that their basic masks have different abilities, and they may wish to switch back to them.

 

 

...And that's the theory so far! My last point is that I do not think LEGO will confirm that G2 is a continuation, even if it is, until after G2 finishes. They do not want to confuse new fans, as we know. :P Instead, it could be the final surprise to keep fans talking once the theme is gone.

 

Anyway, thanks for reading! Please give me your thoughts and I'd love to hear of if I have got any plot details wrong - this is supposed to perfectly link the two canons. And if no one reads all this, then at least I won't look so stupid when the theory is proved wrong! :D

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I agree with and endorse this theory. Only thing I'd add, though, is that the Protectors "Invoke the power of Past and Future". What I think this could mean (And also all the Vahi scattered around Okoto) is that the Protectors actually brought the Toa forward in time from the end of G1, and that them crashing into the island is a result of time travel (As in, the vortexamabob opened in the sky, like in Ninjago season 3 in "Wrong Place, Wrong Time")*. This theory also leaves Ekimu unexplained- maybe the Ignika reached out and resurrected Artakha using the MOCr's imprint after Velika blew up the fortress, and then relocated him to Okoto under a different identity. :) But other than that, I like it!

 

*The Vahi could be a sign of time travel as well- like the marks on the ground in Marvel when someone gets sent to one of the Nine Realms via the Bifrost.

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I agree with and endorse this theory. Only thing I'd add, though, is that the Protectors "Invoke the power of Past and Future". What I think this could mean (And also all the Vahi scattered around Okoto) is that the Protectors actually brought the Toa forward in time from the end of G1, and that them crashing into the island is a result of time travel (As in, the vortexamabob opened in the sky, like in Ninjago season 3 in "Wrong Place, Wrong Time")*. This theory also leaves Ekimu unexplained- maybe the Ignika reached out and resurrected Artakha using the MOCr's imprint after Velika blew up the fortress, and then relocated him to Okoto under a different identity. :) But other than that, I like it!

 

*The Vahi could be a sign of time travel as well- like the marks on the ground in Marvel when someone gets sent to one of the Nine Realms via the Bifrost.

I was debating whether to theorise about who Ekimu is, but I decided that it was likely he was a previously unknown villager who happened to find the Mask of Creation in the rubble of that fortress. But I like your theory that the Mask of Life resurrected a wearer for the Mask of Creation.

 

I considered time travel, but it seems somewhat unnecessary when the Toa are immortal anyway. Plus, if the Toa were dormant in canisters all that time, that could explain why they have memory loss - they didn't access it for ages so it decayed. But I admit the Vahi does imply something "timey wimey"...

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Sorry but I don't think this flies. There's a few really good reasons to think this is definitely a reimagining:

-The blatant repetition of certain key themes from 2001 (but thankfully not looking like the same story repeated) -- Toa shot from space, having lost their memories, six elder figures, villain named Makuta, lone tropical island with six elemental regions, mask searches, etc. It is a serious stretch to think all these things would be repeated so obviously if this was a far-future thing set in the same universe.

-This Greg quote:

 

It's been confirmed at the BIONICLE panel in New York that this is a reboot, not a continuation of the old storyline.


Emphasis mine. (You're correct that "reboot" can mean a type of continuation and the term was used in 2008 as such, as Greg had also suggested the possibility, which I supported, of a far-future continuation. However, this quote makes it clear LEGO isn't using the term that way this time.)

-That Generation 1 already clearly opened the door for this with the alternate universe explorations in which alternate versions of events but with familiar names used in different ways (Toa, Makuta, etc.) were encountered. Gen 2 easily fits this pattern, with no need to try to force it into the same universe.



To some of your details (as you wrote so much and there's limits on quote tags, I'll use quote marks instead, and bullet points):

-First, on the plus side I applaud your not doing the cliche thing and relying on the Vahi to connect the two generations. You do mention it but it seems to be a side detail of your theory. Your theory is at least a little more plausible than the typical attempts.

-And this is actually not an entirely bad idea, but as a fanfic. In order to make it work you'd have to ignore several things about Gen 1 canon (as I'll get into in following points), so it can't work officially. (Without some retcons anyways.)

"My first point regards the Golden Skinned Being (GSB) from G1, and how its golden colouration and powers of control are similar to G2's "Makuta"."

The resemblance pretty much ends there -- Goldiflocks is "skinned", and G2Mak seems golden armored. (And purple armored!) Goldy is a fusion of mostly Skakdi. Makuta doesn't resemble a Skakdi at all. Goldy was "blissful to a fault" -- Makuta is envious (another clear repeated pattern from G1 evidencing a reimagining BTW), annoyed, perturbed... basically the opposite of Goldy's personality. Goldiflocks could wave his hand and make a castle, Makuta has to work hard, groaning as he hammers, to make a mask, and relies apparently on a system of "getting elemental forces from the island" same as Ekimu did to imbue the mask with power. And Goldy could control, as you mentioned, without a mask.

Not to mention, Greg confirmed Makuta was dead! Truly dead, not just mostly. :P

"Teridax created the GSB before the final battle"

I think a recent topic brought out that this was a myth based on a theory that we had somehow taken as fact, and we don't actually know who was behind it. I forget the details, though. But I think people were suggesting Velika instead.

"However, Teridax didn't plan to be defeated in a way that destroyed the Core Processor holding his Antidermis. That destruction meant some Antidermis was lost. After some time composing himself, Teridax in Antidermis form heads to find the GSB, losing more Antidermis on the way. He manages to take over the mind of the GSB"

I'd just point out that in addition of this requiring a retcon of Makuta's death certificate signed by Dr. Farshtey (:P), there was already an opportunity to have Makuta start this, albeit earlier, because a small green cloud was described as entering and for a while we didn't know who that was. Yet, Greg later confirmed it was Zaktan.

Why do that, if this is really all about having Makuta be revived? Why not leave it unanswered who that was? Now we know that couldn't have been Teridax, so this would require (albeit now at two different times, one pre-fusion, one after), TWO little green clouds going to this fusion. Slightly repetitive story much? :P

"but the Antidermis he lost earlier encoded many of his memories. He now thinks his name is "Makuta", and only remembers his original purpose of helping the Matoran."

This is not a bad idea, but as a theory it's mighty convenient. :P Just the right memories just so happen to get erased, and no others, so that he goes back to a state matching what some people popularly and inaccurately guessed he was like in 2001? Sounds much more like LEGO wants to give multiple tastes what they want by having a version of Makuta as they'd intended, in 2001-2010, and a reimagined version like that popular theory for 2015.

"(As a side note, the GSB took control of the Toa Mahri, so if this theory is accurate then Makuta in G2 may control five corrupted Toa.)"

Note that his control was broken and they were freed during the fight with Annona. Whether they were recaptured is unclear, but seems unlikely to me. (Knowing what they were dealing with, I doubt they would stick around.)

-Your Okoto point is pretty reasonable, but doesn't explain why it reminds so well of Mata Nui island in form, and why there have been lines implying the island actually has elemental forces making the six regions this time (another popular theory about 2001 that was not confirmed, so probably another reason to have a reimagining).

-I do see tidbits of evidence for your basic elements theory. If they're Agori, we would expect to see three elements the same -- Fire, Water, and Ice, and we do. And three elements different -- Jungle (check), Sand (read on), and Rock (read). Canonically there were other tribes, like Iron and Earth, but we wouldn't necessarily expect to see those as they were obscure.

Your logic about Jungle seems mostly solid, but we don't actually know much yet about the elemental power, and I have some nitpicks (read yo yo).

Sand? Yeah, the tan colored Toa is seen blatantly controlling sand. (Stone.)

Rock? Mostly no. However, there is a line that says Onua is tunneling through solid rock. Which as I've pointed out, was possible anyways in Gen1 with mask of Strength, natural strength, and claws, and Gen 2 Onua looks super strong and has metal claw/shovel-ish things, so this doesn't necessarily mean anything. But it's still interesting that there is evidence for your theory here.

However, these things work just as well for a reimagining. In fact, originally sand was to be in the purview of Stone, which is probably why there's so much of it in Po-Wahi. Later this was retconned so Sand was in the middle and part of neither (possibly with plans to use it later, which didn't happen for the MU but did for SM, obviously). And Lewa was often confused for a Toa of Plants by fans early on, due to promo art showing him swinging through vines and the green color. And the tunneling thing, as mentioned, works in either generation, as far as we know so far.

"This regards how the Protectors seem more similar to Agori than Matoran.
-Firstly, the Protectors can give birth, grow from children and age. This suggests that they are organic beings like Agori, who could also reproduce etc. Matoran are biomechanical and can not reproduce etc. (As an aside, this is good evidence that G2 is not a rerun of the G1 story as some theorise, because if it were, why not use Matoran?)"

How do you know they're not?

I remember a popular fanfic when I was new to BZP back in the day, where somebody reimagined Matoran as aging like us and reproducing basically like us, having fathers and sons. It seems clear to me somebody had the same idea with Gen 2.

They're not using the name Matoran, but:

1) They're not using the name Agori either, so that's irrelevant so far.

2) They're avoiding overuse* of fictional names this time clearly on purpose.

3) I had been expecting them to do this anyways, because it makes a lot of sense to avoid confusing new fans (and have been using it as a rule, not to this extent but still, in my retelling for the same reasons).

*Overuse is subjective and depends on the audience. Gen 1 intentionally targeted kids who wanted a story that took a lot of work to understand. However, "populating the field of variety" means we should expect a version that goes the other route.

Plus, times have changed. Kids during Gen 1 may have had more time, or just less access to more stories, so just more room in their heads. :P They didn't spend a lot of time on "social media" (yeah, we had forums which do the same thing but Twitter and Bookface weren't a thing... well, there was that MyVoid or whatever it was... but yeah, now kids spend a lot of time on those things). Attention spans have gone down, and people have noticed.


So, these can easily BE Matoran, with Agori-like elements, and working more like us.

"(evidenced by Air Elemental Blaster and Protector "Jungle Mask", not "Mask of Jungle" as with the other masks)"

But by this logic, the theory falls apart since Lewa IS called the Master of Jungle.


"the G2 Toa look like upgrades of the G1 Toa, not rebuilds."

This seems subjective to me. A rebuild (reimagining) could look like anything the reimaginers wanted it to be.

"Secondly, the references to the past, and the Vahi, imply that this is the same Toa team from the past."

Uh... that just does not follow at all. Of course there is a past in a reimagining. :P And we would also expect to see some masks re-used (and already have, with the Mask of Creation).

But this is at least, as said, a better way to incorporate the Vahi into a connection theory than the attempts thus far.

"Thirdly, the Toa in G2 have memory loss and that could include forgetting that their masks have avilities like shielding etc."

I don't think this works even in your theory. Surely they would notice when trying to call on a Mask of Fire and a shield appears. Gen 2's story, at least in first half of 2015, is focused on these masks, so I doubt they could fail to notice what the powers are!

I think you would have to say that they wanted elemental masks like Takanuva has, and since their faces as their normal masks are so well known, and in Gen 1 masks can be made in any shape, they got something similar to the dealio with the Toa Hagah, and got elemental masks similar to their normal faces.

(But then, why do that? Those mask powers made sense for those Toa in Gen 1 and elemental masks are superfluous for them. Admittedly it's not clear yet that the Gen 2 Toa have NO powers without the masks, but if they're the same people as Gen 1, this would be strange. Takanuva had an excuse; the Mask of Light made thematic sense in-universe as an object passed around and protected to be used to Toa-ize an Av-Matoran if things got dark enough. I'm not seeing it for the Toa Mata... although admittedly their being named after their elements does give a thematic reason, but enough of a motive to do it? Eh...)

"Fouthly, the Toa according to this theory are still biomechanical. Therefore they are immortal"

Okay that really doesn't follow...

Not only were the biomechanical beings of Gen 1 mortal anyways (although advances in the future, before these characters died, could admittedly be made), having some mechanical parts does nothing to make the biological parts age any differently!

Very long lifespans (seen in Gen 1 in both the Agori and the Matoran, and relatives of each) are more about the design of the organic parts, than whether or not you have mechanical parts. (Plus, anything technological is actually a problem for lifespan as tech is less self-healing normally than organics, so you need some more advanced methods to deal with that problem, which "mechanical" does not imply.)

"It also explains why the Protectors are surprised that the Toa survived a crash-landing"

I'm curious where you're getting this? I don't recall seeing evidence of this when I did my Okoto Video Findings project. Maybe I missed it? Or another source?

"biological Protectors are more fragile beings, so would not survive a similar landing."

This would only be evidence they were robotic (and I have suspected this based on it), not biomechanical, since this very argument should mean the organic parts get too damaged. (And why can't organic Toa with implant tech get just the right implants to survive it, if this is how they survived?)

"Lastly, as a side note, in G1 astrology was not a thing."

??

Meet Nixie, the Astrologer:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Nixie

"The "Toa Planets" could actually have been the Toa themselves, orbiting Spherus Magna in canisters or space stations (a similar idea to G1's Red Star - I imagine that the planets did not disappear when the Toa arrived, so something must remain that the Toa were ejected from)."

The idea that the Toa Planets are Red Star type spacecraft owned by each Toa Okoto is freaking awesome. :)

Not sure it really fits the rest of your theory, though. It seems unlikely for Gen 1, in any time period. The Gen 1 Toa were all about the theme of teamwork, so if they got their own spacecraft, I think it would be one craft most likely.

And I don't think it fits the G2 evidence anyways -- a spacecraft with a comet's tail is one thing, but a Saturnian ring??
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I don't get why people see a need to connect the two lines. Look at Transformers. The Generation 1 series told the story of the Autobots fighting a war against the Decepticons, which brought them all to Earth. The newer live-action series portrays the same characters (Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, Megatron, etc), but in different forms, with different voices (except Optimus, of course), and under completely different circumstances. The characters bear some similarities, personality-wise, to their G1 counterparts:

 

-Optimus= leader of the Autobots, protective of humans, and transforms into a semi-truck, among other things.

-Bumblebee= younger, smaller member of the Autobots that becomes fast friends with the human characters.

-Starscream=Megatron's second-in-command, scheming, a bit cowardly, and such.

-Just to name a few.

 

See? Similar characters, different story, different circumstances. It's not unheard of. All it is is a new continuity under the same name. 

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Thanks for your feedback - I do think most of your points are solid. Just a couple of objections though:

 

-That Greg quote looks more like he is saying "I can confirm that the new story team says it is a reboot," which doesn't add much more weight to the idea. If it is secretly a continuation, then he wouldn't be allowed to reveal that anyway and "the new team says it is such and such" is the sort of language you would expect of someone trying not to explicitly lie. (Not that I'm claiming that that is likely. :P )

 

-Also, I don't see a problem with the story repeating certain elements. A lot of mythological stories contain cyclic and repeated parts.

 

-I intended to say that Teridax took control of the GSB after the events in the story serials, so personality comparisons don't disprove the idea. However you are right that the GSB-Makuta would have had to get a lot more armour from somewhere. Usefully, though, his armour is similar to that of the Protectors so maybe he got it where they got theirs.

 

-"Call on Mask of Fire" seems an odd idea. I don't think the Toa would go "mask, attack!" and get whatever power, rather they would go "flame, attack!", because they "know" that that is their power. Most Kanohi powers explicitly state that they require concentration to operate; you cannot concentrate on the power when you have no idea you posess it. ;)

 

- My use of "immortal" Toa was clumsy. I meant to convey "do not age" to contrast with the Protectors who appear to grow from children, up to old age. My use of "astrology" was also clumsy. I meant astrology as in supernatural insight gained from space, which I wouldn't count watching the Red Star as because it was a physical mechanism and related to the GSR. However, somehow actual distant planets aligning and giving information about Toa would be too supernatural, and out of keeping with established themes of G1.

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My use of "astrology" was also clumsy. I meant astrology as in supernatural insight gained from space, which I wouldn't count watching the Red Star as because it was a physical mechanism and related to the GSR. However, somehow actual distant planets aligning and giving information about Toa would be too supernatural, and out of keeping with established themes of G1.

However, the Red Star and the other celestial mechanisms, such as Toa stars, initially seemed supernatural. They weren't confirmed as otherwise until 2009. Similarly, the "distant planets" might well turn out to be space-stations, or synthetic worlds, or what-you-might.

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-That Greg quote looks more like he is saying "I can confirm that the new story team says it is a reboot," which doesn't add much more weight to the idea. If it is secretly a continuation, then he wouldn't be allowed to reveal that anyway and "the new team says it is such and such" is the sort of language you would expect of someone trying not to explicitly lie. (Not that I'm claiming that that is likely. :P )

I don't think it is. It sounds like the sort of language of somebody denying that it's set in the same universe in the future. :) He didn't have to add the "not a continuation" part, if we wanted to do that; he could have just said it's a reboot. And I don't know if he was paraphrasing them or what, but if they said it isn't, and it is, all this does is change who lied. :P

 

Also, I don't see a problem with the story repeating certain elements. A lot of mythological stories contain cyclic and repeated parts.

They do, and Gen 1 did (canisters arrive on an island needing help = Voya Nui, or simply the existence in BTW the same year of two bad guy characters who are clouds of green gas, heh), but so many and so blatant, no. That's why I didn't say it's about certain elements repeating, but a pervasive, encompassing pattern, just like many other reimaginings in other story franchises. (And at least one clear alternate timeline reboot in the case of Star Trek.)

 

Most Kanohi powers explicitly state that they require concentration to operate; you cannot concentrate on the power when you have no idea you posess it. ;)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but it sounds like you're thinking they would simply fail to activate mask powers at all because they're trying the wrong type (similar to LoMN?). But if masks don't work for them, why would so much emphasis be placed on confidence that collecting the Golden Masks is a good idea? Rather than figuring these out? I'd expect something like "we tried to use our elemental masks, but they didn't seem to work. So we hoped these Golden Masks would work. But we fear they, too, may fail for us." Instead it seems more like "you have these elemental masks, and yes, you're using them, but you need these even more powerful ones!" There's no hint of doubt so far that the masks don't do what it says on the tin.

 

My use of "immortal" Toa was clumsy. I meant to convey "do not age" to contrast with the Protectors who appear to grow from children, up to old age.

I... see... Okay. Yeah, that wouldn't be even close to the right word to convey that. :P But thanks for clarifying.

 

My use of "astrology" was also clumsy. I meant astrology as in supernatural insight gained from space, which I wouldn't count watching the Red Star as because it was a physical mechanism and related to the GSR. However, somehow actual distant planets aligning and giving information about Toa would be too supernatural, and out of keeping with established themes of G1.

I suspected so. Problem is this is a fictional universe (both as the separate G2 universe we've been led to believe it is, and if it is really the G1 universe), so both how things work, and what the meaning of the term "translated" as "astrology" is, need not be like our world. It seems clear there is something systematic that applies "magic" in a wider realm-based sense in G2 (such as "elemental forces of the island" being apparently harnessed to make elemental masks), and there's no real reason in such a world that planets aligning couldn't be given meaning to certain events, especially with a "Temple of Time" being involved.

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Most Kanohi powers explicitly state that they require concentration to operate; you cannot concentrate on the power when you have no idea you posess it. ;)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but it sounds like you're thinking they would simply fail to activate mask powers at all because they're trying the wrong type (similar to LoMN?). But if masks don't work for them, why would so much emphasis be placed on confidence that collecting the Golden Masks is a good idea? Rather than figuring these out? I'd expect something like "we tried to use our elemental masks, but they didn't seem to work. So we hoped these Golden Masks would work. But we fear they, too, may fail for us." Instead it seems more like "you have these elemental masks, and yes, you're using them, but you need these even more powerful ones!" There's no hint of doubt so far that the masks don't do what it says on the tin.

Yes, I think Legends of Metru Nui is a good analogy. Except here, the Toa think they already know what their masks do so aren't actively trying to "activate" some sort of mask power.

 

The Toa think that their masks are just masks that passively give them extra elemental power, because that IS what the Protector masks do. And the masks do work in that respect, because wearing any Kanohi amplifies a Toa's natural elemental ability, so the Toa would not think "these masks are not working", instead "this is great, my elemental power is twice as much when I wear this".

 

Then the point of finding the Golden Masks then is the same as if you don't agree with this theory - the Toa need even stronger elemental powers for whatever story reason. :) The Golden Masks ARE just masks of each element, analogous to the Mask of Light, so wearing one will give the Toa additional elemental power on top of their natural power, as the material so far released suggests.

 

P.S. Something I theorised in another thread was that the Toa may "discover" that their basic masks have different powers after 2015's main story and then have a reason to switch between the two. (Because frankly, why even include the basic masks in the sets if they are permanently discarded after a month?) That could involve them being possessed by a Skull Spider that has the same ability as their original mask power, which could then "awaken the lost memories" or something. (I'm referring to how the Skull Spider powers of X-ray vision and speed seem familiar, although "strength" is a bit tenuous...)

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Yes, I think Legends of Metru Nui is a good analogy. Except here, the Toa think they already know what their masks do so aren't actively trying to "activate" some sort of mask power.

 

The Toa think that their masks are just masks that passively give them extra elemental power, because that IS what the Protector masks do. And the masks do work in that respect, because wearing any Kanohi amplifies a Toa's natural elemental ability, so the Toa would not think "these masks are not working", instead "this is great, my elemental power is twice as much when I wear this".

Okay. That can work, but I don't think it quite works canonically. Not wearing a mask doesn't lessen elemental ability, as far as I know. BS01 says:

 

When a Matoran, Toa, or Turaga has their Kanohi removed, they suffer weakness - Toa feel weak and dizzy, Turaga suffer extreme weakness, and Matoran lapse into a coma-like state if the mask is not replaced within an extended period of time.

 

I'm pretty sure "weak" here means physically and mentally so, rather than their power being less. Admittedly, this gives them a reason to still use the masks, but wouldn't it be more of a "Mask of not feeling dizzy"? :P

 

So... to make that idea work I think you once again have to retcon things.

 

I suppose there could be some kind of "things changed in the future" way to explain it away... but we're getting on pretty shaky ground there.

 

(Because frankly, why even include the basic masks in the sets if they are permanently discarded after a month?)

Well, if the above Gen 1 rule applies in Gen 2, there's an obvious reason. :) Plus, if they are indeed elemental masks that grant them their powers, they still make sense to use for a while -- the fact that they'll be "discarded" (or stored as a backup probably) is irrelevant to the here and now before they've gotten the golden masks. They still need something to boost (or supply) their power before that, in order to even get that far. (Possibly/probably. :P)

 

And keep in mind Gen 1 did the same sort of thing; the original masks were "discarded" (in the interpretation that ended up being canon, used to unlock the golden masks), but necessary to earn the replacements.

 

 

 

I'd think it would be confusing to have elemental masks (gold masks in your theory here) being in the same shape as the Gen1-powered masks, even though both colors of each Gen 2 mask is already in a modified shape from the Gen 1 original shapes. Not that Gen 1 masks couldn't have different shapes, but it's confusing under your theory.

 

The way it appears is much less confusing -- they're elemental masks, so the shape differences help you tell the difference, but also resemble their original faces because that's what fans expect to see as those characters' faces. :) And Gold is a powerup. (Of some sort.)

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Yes, I think Legends of Metru Nui is a good analogy. Except here, the Toa think they already know what their masks do so aren't actively trying to "activate" some sort of mask power.

 

The Toa think that their masks are just masks that passively give them extra elemental power, because that IS what the Protector masks do. And the masks do work in that respect, because wearing any Kanohi amplifies a Toa's natural elemental ability, so the Toa would not think "these masks are not working", instead "this is great, my elemental power is twice as much when I wear this".

Okay. That can work, but I don't think it quite works canonically. Not wearing a mask doesn't lessen elemental ability, as far as I know. BS01 says:

 

When a Matoran, Toa, or Turaga has their Kanohi removed, they suffer weakness - Toa feel weak and dizzy, Turaga suffer extreme weakness, and Matoran lapse into a coma-like state if the mask is not replaced within an extended period of time.

 

I'm pretty sure "weak" here means physically and mentally so, rather than their power being less. Admittedly, this gives them a reason to still use the masks, but wouldn't it be more of a "Mask of not feeling dizzy"? :P

 

You might want to read Dark Destiny again. When the Nuva were escaping the lava flow, Pohatu was instructed to put up protective barriers, but was only able to do a few small ones, rather than something that would have longer-lasting effects. (Note: this was after their defeat at the hands of the Piraka, and their masks and tools had been taken by Zaktan). Later on, when confronted by the Voya Nui Resistance Team, the Toa tried to defend themselves (without harming the villagers), but had difficulty doing so due to their limited powers, while the VNRT had fully-powered weapons.

 

Also, in Tale of the Toa, Tahu didn't realize his power of fire until he put the mask on.

 

So, yes. Elemental power is weakened by the removal of masks. :)

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If so, BS01's Kanohi page needs an edit. :) Are you 100% sure those things aren't just poor usage due to mental problems? That would, after all, get in the way. :P

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If so, BS01's Kanohi page needs an edit. :) Are you 100% sure those things aren't just poor usage due to mental problems? That would, after all, get in the way. :P

I'll have to check the exact wording in the book, but I recall one of them saying something to the effects of "Without our masks, our powers are useless."

 

Give me a few minutes, and I'll try to find the page it's on.

 

EDIT: Found it. There's actually a few passages that mention it.

 

"It all came back to [Tahu]. The Piraka... The sword fight... defeat. With their masks, the Toa Nuva had been unable to defeat these new enemies. What chance did they have without them?"

 

 

This one is a bit vague, and could mean either way. Then, we go to the next paragraph...

 

...The only way out was to unleash whatever he could of his elemental power against Reidak, and hope it was enough to down the Piraka...

 

 

 

This one is more suggestive that the Toa have less access to their powers at this point, the only clear cause being the lack of Kanohi. This is repeated with Pohatu moments later...

 

Summoning what elemental power he could, he raised a wall of stone to block the molten flow.

 

 

Again, it is suggested that the Toa have less of their powers to call upon. This is confirmed when Lewa says they need a bigger barricade.

 

"I can't!" said Pohatu, helping Onua to his feet. "Without the mask, my power is too weak."

"Then make... small ones," the Toa of Earth muttered. "Lots of them."

........

All along the way, Pohatu used his waning power to throw up stone barriers to check the magma's progress.

 

 

Here, Pohatu confirms that he can do little with his powers while his mask is removed.

 

As for the mention during the battle with the VNRT, I was mistaken. That scene goes too fast and shifts POV enough that there's almost no time to bring it up. Besides, it had already been established two chapters earlier, so I don't think there was any need to make any major comments on it well after the fact.

 

Besides chapter 1 of Tale of the Toa, we have no other scenes by which to determine what the situation is. Not that I can remember, anyway. The comics weren't very descriptive of these things, and none of the books make mention of it. Tales of the Masks might say something, but I can't imagine when or where it would have done so.

 

Given this information, I'd say that elemental powers can work without masks, but maybe at only 50%, like their physical strength.

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That could be them being less able to channel their available power due to mental weakness. Think of it like stacking cups. When you're tired, it's more difficult to stack cups quickly and efficiently than whenyou're rested. Pohatu was feeling weak and dizzy, and so could not concentrate on raising a bigger barrier; the elemental power slipping from his mental grasp before he could summon enough of it.

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That could be them being less able to channel their available power due to mental weakness. Think of it like stacking cups. When you're tired, it's more difficult to stack cups quickly and efficiently than whenyou're rested. Pohatu was feeling weak and dizzy, and so could not concentrate on raising a bigger barrier; the elemental power slipping from his mental grasp before he could summon enough of it.

That may very well be part of it, but so far nothing has denied that the removal of a mask weakens the powers themselves, while we've had a few examples that do confirm it.

 

There were some bits in that chapter that I read that might help us out, though it doesn't have as much to do with elemental powers. At the sight of the oncoming lava, Tahu instinctively tried to shield the others. Pohatu almost tried to speed them all away. Neither situation worked. By now, their powers (both Kanohi and elemental) should be entirely second nature , especially for simple things like making a wall. 

 

For example, I'm a runner. Been running since high school. Nowadays, I can go out for a 5-mile run without thinking about keeping proper form or anything. I just do it because my body knows how to respond to the situation. Second nature. The Toa have been practicing with their powers since they woke up on the shores of Mata Nui. Anything they do should be easy for them, and require very little planning ahead. They know what it feels like to fire a beam of ice or raise up a mound of dirt, and should be able to respond immediately should the situation require it. A little dizziness shouldn't be too difficult an obstacle to overcome. If that is the case, then why did Pohatu have such a hard time making his powers work? 

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I like this theory. Outside of that one Greg quote (which is up for interpretation anyway as has been mentioned), I doubt it will ever be proven or disproven one way or another. Though I do hope/like the idea of this being the equivalent to the "You are not the first Toa!" plot twist bomb we got at the end of '03, or the "WHAAAAT!? We live in a giant robot?" (+1 internet points if you get the reference :P) twist from '08.

 

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So, yes. Elemental power is weakened by the removal of masks. :)

There's a point you overlooked. Their tools were taken. And most Toa use their Toa Tools to channel their elemental energies. It's more likely they had problems with their Elemental Powers because of that. Edited by maxim21
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Thanks for the quotes, T1S, although maxim's point makes sense up there. (But doesn't fit Pohatu's wording. :shrugs: Actually it's weird they don't mention difficulty due to the lack of tool focus. Maybe Greg forgot about that then??)

 

I like this theory. Outside of that one Greg quote (which is up for interpretation anyway as has been mentioned)

I don't think it is. It was suggested it might be, but the logic doesn't seem to hold up, unless you have an alternate interpretation? This theory is that G2 is a continuation of G1. Greg and the new story team agree it isn't. Where's the room for interpretation here, exactly?

 

And saying they might be lying isn't really an interpretation, since the words of the lie still literally mean what it appears, they just wouldn't be true. :P And we have no basis for such a conspiracy theory.

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Thanks for the quotes, T1S, although maxim's point makes sense up there. (But doesn't fit Pohatu's wording. :shrugs: Actually it's weird they don't mention difficulty due to the lack of tool focus. Maybe Greg forgot about that then??)

I'll throw my (slightly long) quote in for consideration, too:

 

But when he swung the sword, it felt heavy and awkward.

He scowled. "Useless hunk of metal," he muttered, jabbing the blade into the sand.

Then he noticed the mask. It stared up at him with gaping eyeholes, its surface catching the sunlight so that it appeared to come alive in his hands. Taking a deep breath, Tahu lifted the mask to his face.

A surge of power coursed through him. Yes! This was more like it!

Tahu grabbed the flame sword and lifted it. This time, to his surprise, the blade was glowing with crimson fire. When he swung the sword, it sizzled through the air, trailing sparks in its wake.

—BIONICLE Chronicles 1: Tale of the Toa

 

I'd say that one is pretty conclusive. No mask = not enough elemental power to light his sword; with mask = enough elemental power to light his sword. The quote can't be explained by saying that Tahu couldn't concentrate on summoning fire without his mask, because he didn't intend to summon fire when he put it on (the sword seems to draw it automatically only when Tahu has enough elemental power). The quote also debunks the above idea that it was lack of Toa tools that weakened the Toa Nuva's powers after their defeat by the Piraka - here, maskless Tahu has less power even when holding his Toa tool.

 

You see what I mean in my theory - Tahu's mask didn't need to be the Mask of Fire to increase his power of fire. So neither do the G2 basic Toa masks *necessarily* have to be masks of elements. ;)

 

And just as a bonus, another quote:

 

"You must not remove your masks, unless you are replacing one with another. Without them, your strength is halved."

—Toa Helryx, BIONICLE Legends 10: Swamp of Secrets

Edited by Xelphene
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Yeah, as Xelphene said, the lack of Toa Tools does nothing to hinder their power. All the tool does is focus it. The power is still there and available for use no matter what. The lack of weapons didn't do a thing. Remember, Greg has said multiple times that Toa can switch out weapons. If Toa actually relied on their weapons for their power, don't you think that switching to a different tool might hinder their use of powers?

 

Example: Tahu relies on Magma swords for his use of power --> loses tools --> picks up a copy of Matoro's ice claws --> does power get confused? or does it function just fine regardless of what is in his hand?

 

Let me quote Kopaka from the first comic: "Interesting. The sword is but the focus--the power is in me."

 

Lack of weapons? Not a problem. :)

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May I interject a thought? Regarding the masks in regards to the Toa's elemental power. Now mind you I have not exactly followed the story as closely as virtually anyone else on this site due to lack of owned resources back when Bionicle came out and until recently I had no knowledge of the "Great beings" or other Toa teams story wise. My knowledge consisted of "Ok, new versions of the Toa, Eh, don't really like how they look so wont get them." As a child with no income of my own while I heard about the comics and books, I didn't know they continued the story of the Online game and the movies.

 

Now that I have basically discredited anything I am about to say lets get started :P. From what I understand the Toa's masks are not pinnacle to their elemental powers in regards to what mask they are currently wearing. Only that they are wearing any mask at all. Now seeing as how there are several ranks of masks (Great > Noble > powerless) I do not know if wearing a different ranked mask would limit a Toa's natural elemental power. Now mind you I am referring to my limited knowledge of the Toa Mata. Regarding the other Toa teams this may be the case, however seeing as how a Toa of (Element) has to be created from a Matoran of that same element It seems unlikely changing ones mask would change their element. I say this in response to who said, "Mask of Fire"

 

The Masks themselves grant an ability associated with it. Taho's Mask of Shielding, Pohatu's ask of Speed. Naturally Anyone who puts on the mask of speed and has the ability to access that power will move fast. Pohatu himself is not inherently fast just because that is his Original Mask. He only become fast when activating that mask power; As would any Toa or Turaga respectively. So why would one think as such? Am I wrong in Assuming this?

 

Now regarding Activation of their elemental powers. Yes As each Toa are made from Matoran (Toa Mata may be an exception as I don't know if there is any story regarding them being Matoran or if they were created as Toa, thus the element related names.) They would already have inactive or suppressed elemental powers. Again the masks are not required to have this power, only to access it. Think of it like the Transformation to great ape in DBZ. All Sayins have this power in them, however they cannot access it without their tail. The same can be true here.

 

Regarding Tahu's dislike of his weapon prior to putting on his mask. Yes it would seem that the mask activated his power as is seen when his sword ignites. However I have to ask... Did Tahu dislike his sword prior because he could not get it to light or perhaps because it was unwieldy due to him being in a weakened state both from his trip and not having his mask on? This question in itself can lead to the answer you seek regarding if a Toa's elemental power is repressed without their mask or if it is just a matter of being too physically weak to access without a mask on.

 

Now if you read up on the differences between the Matoran Toa and Turaga in regards to their ability to access their elemental powers you can get a hint at this answer.

  • Matoran: Have latent elemental power that manifests itself in different ways
    • Fire = Resistance to heat.
    • Ice = Resistance to cold.
    • Water = Enhances lung capacity.
    • Earth = Night vision, strength
    • Stone = Strength, durability
    • Air = Enhanced Agility
  • Toa: Usually something to do with controlling the element or creating it.
  • Turaga: Limited version of Toa's ability.

Now we can see here that as the body changes so does the individual's abilities with their element. Now if you read up on the Masks themselves all they say is that their respective powers diminish from Great to Noble. Nothing to do with one's element. That being said, wearing a specific level of mask doesn't modify one's elemental ability only their body does. Now what does that mean regarding a Toa's ability regarding having a Mask or not? Well if I may I think it is a physical weakness not a mental one. The mental aspect only conforms to accessing a masks power, not the element of the individual. Being that the mask is a biological part of the Matoran species and thus all "evolutions" there after. Now over time I suspect not wearing a mask would physically weaken the Toa, they need a mask period to access their elemental power.

 

I guess in all it means both answers are correct unless otherwise stated by a character themselves or somebody in authority on the subject in question says otherwise. Not having a mask weakens the Toa and their access to their elemental power as shown with Pohatu and his barriers. While the mask in question does not matter, though I don't think a Toa would ever be caught wearing a powerless mask. Having any mask on at all is the key.

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Actually it had been confirmed that changing Toa Tools require some time to adapt (see this post of fishers64 on a previous topic, quoting the old OGD)

Assuming an adaptation time is needed to use their elemental powers with full effectiveness without any weapons seem pretty logical.

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Thanks, Xelphene. That does help. Two cautions, though:

 

1) The Helryx quote doesn't define "strength" (unless it's in the context?).

 

2) And it should be kept in mind that the first quote is from a Hapka book, so it may need independent confirmation, as Hapka did some non-canon things. (And some canon things, but we know about those mainly from Greg confirming them.) Did Greg anywhere actually confirm or deny this? 'Cuz I can't help but wonder why the BS01 page doesn't say it (though maybe a different page does... this was the Kanohi page FTR). Usually things that were non-canon are kept out of those pages, so that's one possible reason it doesn't.

 

Either way, your theory works under that interpretation, whether it was G1-canon or not, yes. :) (Well, that part of it. :P)

 

However, I think the point about dizziness stands still. And keep in mind this does not prove that G2 is using the G1 system, even if the G1 system could be interpreted this way. Let's face it, that's a really convoluted way to get the same effect as the G2 masks actually being "what it says on the tin". :P So... actually I'd say you end up with the same problem I mentioned about Makuta... it ends up being so convenient as to be suspect. Combined with all the other evidence of the repeated, reimagining-style patterns, and everything else I mentioned, I'd say "G2 is a different universe" is still far, far more likely.

 

Short answer: It beggars belief to think LEGO will want to explain this kind of complexity to the G2 audience. :P Much simpler to just have them wearing elemental masks (whichever universe it is).

 

All the tool does is focus it. The power is still there and available for use no matter what. The lack of weapons didn't do a thing.

Well, it should, actually. If you can't focus the power, you won't make effective walls, for example. Your power might "miss" a little, or you might sense it about to and cut it off, and wait until you sense it focusing somewhat more, randomly. But Greg may have decided there wasn't space to get into that there. :shrugs: Or maybe the Toa Mata had already been trained in power usage without tools (as they can focus just through hands, but it takes practice), by Hydraxon, and retained the "muscle" memory.

 

Let me quote Kopaka from the first comic: "Interesting. The sword is but the focus--the power is in me."

 

Lack of weapons? Not a problem. :)

I'm confused why you're wording it that way. That doesn't follow; the Kopaka quote describes by implication the problem he would have (lack of focus... this, plus some Greg quotes clarifying it, inspired the title of my first Paracosmos fanfic, The Sword is But the Focus, in which Kopaka loses his sword).

 

Now seeing as how there are several ranks of masks (Great > Noble > powerless) I do not know if wearing a different ranked mask would limit a Toa's natural elemental power.

Interesting question. I would have to say no. The limits we're talking about seem to be the Toa's version of what Matoran experience when they lose masks (which for them is a coma), and this effect is stopped by wearing powerless masks (and wearing powered ones makes no difference with Matoran). It's possible for Toa it's different, but Greg would have had opportunities to invoke it; he has said Toa don't use Noble mask powers much because their powers are weaker. If he could have added that the elemental powers are lessened to, I suspect he would have, at some point. (Of course, maybe he did, but not as far as I recall.)

 

On the other hand, he does opt for brevity a lot. Still...

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That could be them being less able to channel their available power due to mental weakness. Think of it like stacking cups. When you're tired, it's more difficult to stack cups quickly and efficiently than whenyou're rested. Pohatu was feeling weak and dizzy, and so could not concentrate on raising a bigger barrier; the elemental power slipping from his mental grasp before he could summon enough of it.

That may very well be part of it, but so far nothing has denied that the removal of a mask weakens the powers themselves, while we've had a few examples that do confirm it.

 

There were some bits in that chapter that I read that might help us out, though it doesn't have as much to do with elemental powers. At the sight of the oncoming lava, Tahu instinctively tried to shield the others. Pohatu almost tried to speed them all away. Neither situation worked. By now, their powers (both Kanohi and elemental) should be entirely second nature , especially for simple things like making a wall.

 

For example, I'm a runner. Been running since high school. Nowadays, I can go out for a 5-mile run without thinking about keeping proper form or anything. I just do it because my body knows how to respond to the situation. Second nature. The Toa have been practicing with their powers since they woke up on the shores of Mata Nui. Anything they do should be easy for them, and require very little planning ahead. They know what it feels like to fire a beam of ice or raise up a mound of dirt, and should be able to respond immediately should the situation require it. A little dizziness shouldn't be too difficult an obstacle to overcome. If that is the case, then why did Pohatu have such a hard time making his powers work?

How often do you go for a five-mile run when you have the flu? I imagine the heaviness of your limbs and shortness of breath cuts your athletic ability somewhat. That's what I interpret the 'weakness' as; being very sick; well enough to move around and talk, but hard work is nigh-impossible. Considering that matoran are rendered comatose without a mask, I can certainly picture the Nuva getting dangerously dizzy, short of breath, and weak enough that lifting their own limbs is an effort.

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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Wow, I'm glad I didn't dedicate my evening to reading through this topic :P I got through the first chapter about Makuta, Teridax and the GSB (even the title of which doesn't really make sense) and decided the rest of this theory would probably be similarly flawed so skipped ahead and saw Bonesii stepping in to save the day as usual :D

 

I laos agree with other posters above, though I only skimmed the responses too, I don't understand what it is with Bionicle fans that sees so many of them so desperate to tie the reboot into the Gen1 story. It's one of the great curses of Bionicle followers right now, along with the rampant canonisation of course :D 

 

Just let it go and stop with the theories already, there are a million ways that this COULD be a continuation/alternate universe/different time or whatever. But hopefully it's not and I really hope these topics don't keep popping up for the duration of Gen 2. That's going to get old real fast!

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Interesting question. I would have to say no. The limits we're talking about seem to be the Toa's version of what Matoran experience when they lose masks (which for them is a coma), and this effect is stopped by wearing powerless masks (and wearing powered ones makes no difference with Matoran). It's possible for Toa it's different, but Greg would have had opportunities to invoke it; he has said Toa don't use Noble mask powers much because their powers are weaker. If he could have added that the elemental powers are lessened to, I suspect he would have, at some point. (Of course, maybe he did, but not as far as I recall.)

 

 

 

On the other hand, he does opt for brevity a lot. Still...

 

Well while I agree in that the noble masks are weaker and thus I do not foresee Tahu using a noble Hou over his great one as that would be just silly. I do remember a scene in the online game where pohatu used on of the current Turaga at the time's masks to speak telepathically to one of the Matoran who were trying to stop the invading Barok swarm for getting to po-koro. While one could argue that due to it being the first release they did not yet have designs for the great version of the mask, thus Pohatu could not use/access the Grate version and used what was available at the time. Being the Noble version where if available he would have gone with it's Great variant being a Toa.

 

Also the reason if I remember reading it right that the Matoran use "Powerless" Masks and why Turaga downgrade and use the limited "Noble" has to do with the bodies natural ability to access or otherwise control and handle a specific mask's power. Turaga while having a natural elemental ability as described in my prior post, their bodies cannot handle the power of Noble or Great Masks. It would be like putting a Jet engine on a paper airplane. Once lit "BOOM!" no more airplane. Also I think it said somewhere that if exposed to a Great mask or Toa energy respectively the Matoran in question evolves into a Toa themselves. This has been seen with Takua when he put on the Mask of light.

 

Now I suspect that there very well may be a connection between the mask and the elemental powers of the wearer. Due also in part of what I posted above as the body evolves (or "upgrades" however that works in lore) The Matoran get a boost to their elemental powers. Then as Toa when they sacrifice their power and become Turaga their elemental power diminishes in return. So it is a good possibility that to a certain extent the level of mask could contribute to how much of the Toa's power is unlocked or otherwise usable. So other than the part about the mask being part of their anatomy and is required for proper function it is possible that if by chance a Toa was wearing a "powerless" Mask then their elemental abilities would be no better than if they had no mask at all. However just the same as they would be in fact still wearing a mask, they would not be weakened Physically or otherwise from the lack of one.

 

Now that is not saying that a Toa wearing a "Powerless" mask would have no greater elemental power than a Matoran, it is just saying that the level of mask would have an effect not what mask it is. That is unless there is or will be a Mask of (insert element here) control. Then naturally the wearer would gain the masks power and thus control of that element for the duration. Just the same it is the body of the individual that manages the elemental power, not the mask itself. Now could that mean that a Toa or Turaga could possess control over two elements at once? Not sure regarding Gen 1 if that was allowed short of the fusion "builds", but in Gen 2 from what I understand someone cannot or rather should not have control over more than one element. Thus what happened to makuta when he tried.

 

In that regard I take it that the masks held/hold elemental power maybe not so much the individual themselves. So while in Gen 1 it was the individual thus the different tribes in Gen 2 maybe one's tribe is directly linked to what mask is warn? Seems weird to me. Like would Tahu Toa of Fire, become Tahu Toa of Water if he put on Gali's mask? what would become of his color pallet? Would there be a red Toa of water or would his body change with the mask? Further on that note if you really want to see similarities between possablities of Gen 2 being the same universe or timeline as Gen 2, remember that to become a Toa of an element you have to first be from that tribe. Thus a Le-Matoran would only become a Le-Toa and then a Le-Turaga not say a Po-Toa.

 

Does this work in Gen 2? I'm not sure yet. If the Masks in question are the source of the elemental power then whoever puts on the Mask of (element) becomes a Toa of that element? Seems there is a continuum discrepancy right there.

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Wow, I'm glad I didn't dedicate my evening to reading through this topic :P I got through the first chapter about Makuta, Teridax and the GSB (even the title of which doesn't really make sense) and decided the rest of this theory would probably be similarly flawed so skipped ahead and saw Bonesii stepping in to save the day as usual :D

 

I laos agree with other posters above, though I only skimmed the responses too, I don't understand what it is with Bionicle fans that sees so many of them so desperate to tie the reboot into the Gen1 story. It's one of the great curses of Bionicle followers right now, along with the rampant canonisation of course :D 

 

Just let it go and stop with the theories already, there are a million ways that this COULD be a continuation/alternate universe/different time or whatever. But hopefully it's not and I really hope these topics don't keep popping up for the duration of Gen 2. That's going to get old real fast!

Well, thanks for the constructive feedback!

 

Personally, I am not that bothered whether the generations are linked or not. But the references to the old Vahi and time in the videos imply that there may be some sort of link. Hence why people construct theories on the matter (if you don't like theories, maybe avoid the "Storyline and Theories" section of the forum? ;) ).

 

Again, I do apologise for being a curse upon your community and would love it if you could point out what was flawed about my GSB hypothesis (or what, in fact, the title was that didn't even make sense), so that we may have a constructive discussion. :)

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I'd not say that it was so much that your GSB that was flawed as the whole thing. Your theory, like most Gen2-1 link-fics, retcons many fundamentals of the Gen1 story, while missing other points entirely.

 

Don't complain about someone pushing a loose pillar when the foundation is flawed.

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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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All the tool does is focus it. The power is still there and available for use no matter what. The lack of weapons didn't do a thing.

Well, it should, actually. If you can't focus the power, you won't make effective walls, for example. Your power might "miss" a little, or you might sense it about to and cut it off, and wait until you sense it focusing somewhat more, randomly. But Greg may have decided there wasn't space to get into that there. :shrugs: Or maybe the Toa Mata had already been trained in power usage without tools (as they can focus just through hands, but it takes practice), by Hydraxon, and retained the "muscle" memory.

 

Let me quote Kopaka from the first comic: "Interesting. The sword is but the focus--the power is in me."

 

Lack of weapons? Not a problem. :)

I'm confused why you're wording it that way. That doesn't follow; the Kopaka quote describes by implication the problem he would have (lack of focus... this, plus some Greg quotes clarifying it, inspired the title of my first Paracosmos fanfic, The Sword is But the Focus, in which Kopaka loses his sword).

 

Sorry. I guess I didn't specify what I meant. Maxim suggested that the lack of Toa tools weakened their power. I was saying that the tool is a separate object, not connected to their power.

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I'd not say that it was so much that your GSB that was flawed as the whole thing. Your theory, like most Gen2-1 link-fics, retcons many fundamentals of the Gen1 story, while missing other points entirely.

Don't complain about someone pushing a loose pillar when the foundation is flawed.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's retconning. Although this theory is unlikely, I tried not to contradict any canon. So please, do point out what I've inadvertently retconned and I'll retcon the retcon, or if I can't I'll admit my theory is wrong and leave it at that. ;)

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Let's start with the fact that both GregF and the new story team have said that there's no link between gen1 and gen2. That's a pretty solid argument against your theory. If anyone would know, it'd be the new story team.

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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Also I think it said somewhere that if exposed to a Great mask or Toa energy respectively the Matoran in question evolves into a Toa themselves. This has been seen with Takua when he put on the Mask of light.

Not sure where you're going with this as I read, but it's Toa Energy, not anything about it being a mask (any object can be charged with Toa Energy to act like a Toa Stone; the Mask of Light was simply the object that did in this case, chosen for its thematic value).

*reads on* I guess you're just elaborating on the idea that it's possible Noble Masks weaken Toa power. If no mask does indeed weaken power (versus mental issues alone... which almost seems irrelevant if it does the same thing but still a point I'm curious about, heh), then I agree this is possible, but it's also possible, and appears more likely, that the weakening thing is about the consciousness side of what all masks do equally, and unrelated to mask powers.



Just one point I'd like to make quickly (shortontime) about the elemental masks -- which is that we know this from the website stating it, not just in-story. So, thinking about it, this would again require Gen 2 canon sources to be lying to us.

I sincerely hope they don't do that, as that would open the door up to gobs of confusions from here on out. It was a great thing that no matter how clever Greg got with his answers, he didn't lie. I highly doubt the new story team is going to start doing that. I only don't reject it outright because unlike Greg we have no history with the new team yet. But I don't consider this a possibility to take seriously at all.


And... sorry, outta time. Will catch up if needed later.
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The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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Let's start with the fact that both GregF and the new story team have said that there's no link between gen1 and gen2. That's a pretty solid argument against your theory. If anyone would know, it'd be the new story team.

Okay, that is a very good point, however not game breaking in my opinion. As I said above, the term "reboot" could be used to mean that the new story will not require knowledge of G1 to understand, or make any reference to G1. Similarly, "not a continuation" could mean that it will not continue Greg's story serials or pick up from where 2010 left off, which is something the new team would have wanted to make clear to fans who were hoping that it would be a direct continuation.

That (admittedly unlikely) interpretation of phrases would still leave room for a brand new story that makes no reference to G1, yet obeys all previously established rules of G1 (as G2 does currently) and does not contradict any existing character back stories (such as reintroducing a character called "Takua", who has "gone back to" being a villager).

 

A different way I look at it is; if Greg was asked in 2003 if Mata Nui was the consciousness of a giant robot within which the Matoran lived, what would he say? Surely he would deny it in order to keep the surprise for later. Very few would mind that he lied.

In fact, he did a similar thing in 2013 when asked if BIONICLE was returning. He said no, even though we now know BIONICLE G2 was already in development at that point. He did it to preserve the surprise (and was probably under an NDA too :P ) so that's fine.

 

Anyway, sorry for such a long reply but I agree that your point deserves a good answer - it definitely makes me question this theory too.

Feel free to post any details I've "retconned" in the theory itself - I'll see if they are fixable or not!

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Let's start with the fact that both GregF and the new story team have said that there's no link between gen1 and gen2. That's a pretty solid argument against your theory. If anyone would know, it'd be the new story team.

Okay, that is a very good point, however not game breaking in my opinion. As I said above, the term "reboot" could be used to mean that the new story will not require knowledge of G1 to understand, or make any reference to G1.

Could, but doesn't. A hard reboot means nothing is the same besides the basic concepts. A soft reboot is 2008; taking the story put of established settings and restarting without ignoring the past.

 

The fact that "there is no connection" is not only game-breaking, but directly contradicts your basic premise. You say there is a connection, they say there isn't. They're the official story team. You're some random guy on a forum somewhere. I think their statement holds enough weight on its own to sink your theory.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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If I may, do we know the exact timeline between when Greg said that Bionicle was not returning and when we found out they already had plans? The reason I ask this and I may be grasping at straws here but maybe he didn't know? Again maybe but not sure myself. I don't think it is fare to say he outright lied. Though I guess you could say he didn't lie so much as the Lego team made him out to be a liar. Like he didn't know or otherwise or personally did not want it returning or was otherwise in denial. That is to say that maybe he heard rumors circulating that there could be a return but did not hold them in high regard and didn't want to get our hopes up until he was sure. Then otherwise got the go-ahead.

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Similarly, "not a continuation" could mean that it will not continue Greg's story serials or pick up from where 2010 left off

 

I think you would need to show some evidence for this unusual idea. To be fair, one BZP member once used the term this way. But that's a fan and it was an abnormal definition. In every other topic I've seen, everybody takes "continuation" to refer to any future story in the same universe.

 

Especially because Greg himself had publicly suggested the idea of a far future continuation as a reboot. By saying "not a continuation", he is clearly saying "it's not that kind of reboot I once suggested; it's a real reboot." Otherwise, again, if he wanted to be ambiguous, all he had to do is leave off that "not a continuation" phrase.

 

I'm glad you admit your interpretation is unlikely, though. :)

 

 

A different way I look at it is; if Greg was asked in 2003 if Mata Nui was the consciousness of a giant robot within which the Matoran lived, what would he say? Surely he would deny it in order to keep the surprise for later. Very few would mind that he lied.

 

I'm guessing you haven't spent a lot of time following Greg's answers over the years?

 

Clearly he would just say "I can't discuss the nature of the Great Spirit." This is apparently a false dichotomy where you think he can only either answer yes or no -- no, he can (and often did) just not answer.

 

And yes, of course we would mind that he lied. It would make every other answer suspect.

 

 

 

In fact, he did a similar thing in 2013 when asked if BIONICLE was returning. He said no, even though we now know BIONICLE G2 was already in development at that point. He did it to preserve the surprise (and was probably under an NDA too :P ) so that's fine.

 

Exact quote, please? Otherwise, this is hearsay. Please be aware that at one point LEGO did not have plans for a return so far as employees were told. Did he say it would never return? Or are you exaggerating what he said?

 

Please note this would not be the first time somebody misinterpreted one of his clever answers as a lie. In every case so far, when it was examined (rather than paraphrased as hearsay), the claim fell apart. So claims that Greg has lied have a horrible track record... you'll pardon my skepticism. ;)

Edited by bonesiii
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Let's start with the fact that both GregF and the new story team have said that there's no link between gen1 and gen2. That's a pretty solid argument against your theory. If anyone would know, it'd be the new story team.

Okay, that is a very good point, however not game breaking in my opinion. As I said above, the term "reboot" could be used to mean that the new story will not require knowledge of G1 to understand, or make any reference to G1.

Could, but doesn't. A hard reboot means nothing is the same besides the basic concepts. A soft reboot is 2008; taking the story put of established settings and restarting without ignoring the past.

The fact that "there is no connection" is not only game-breaking, but directly contradicts your basic premise. You say there is a connection, they say there isn't. They're the official story team. You're some random guy on a forum somewhere. I think their statement holds enough weight on its own to sink your theory.

No, my theory's basic premise is that G2 could "secretly" be a continuation of G1. So of course the story team will say it is a reboot. At no point did they say "hard reboot", as you suggest. I also gave my interpretation of "no connection" although you seem to have accidentally cut it out of the quote you used. ;)

 

I would prefer to talk about the theory itself anyway, rather than obsessing over one quote. You suggested earlier that you had a list of errors in my theory and I would still very much like to hear them.

 

Sincerely, "some random guy on a forum somewhere"

 

 

P.S. @ bonesiii

Sorry, I could not find the exact quote. As you say, I am most likely misremembering, although I believe TTV mentioned the incident in their recent "BIONICLE Autopsy" video.

And yes, the Mata Nui question was a bad example. I meant if you were to ask Greg a question that he had to give a yes or no answer to, for example "Is 2015 *really* a hard reboot?", where arguably saying "I can't tell you" would hint that it actually wasn't.

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P.S. @ bonesiii

Sorry, I could not find the exact quote. As you say, I am most likely misremembering, although I believe TTV mentioned the incident in their recent "BIONICLE Autopsy" video.

And yes, the Mata Nui question was a bad example. I meant if you were to ask Greg a question that he had to give a yes or no answer to, for example "Is 2015 *really* a hard reboot?", where arguably saying "I can't tell you" would hint that it actually wasn't.

Well, can you provide the TTV quote, then? They have been found making errors before, but curious anyways.

 

And anybody who follows Greg answers knows that "I can't tell you" is the standard answer no matter what for such things, and it would NOT be possible to read anything into it. (Besides, only somebody's bias toward an answer could make them think that no answer hints toward that side. Somebody wanting to read the opposite in could just take it as hinting the opposite. :P)

 

 

Ballom, I agree with you it's futile to argue that it's a continuation, but the second half of your question seems to miss what's been discussed in the topic about how 2008 was called a "reboot", etc. It is actually reasonable to need a bit more... but we do have that more, so yeah.

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