Theory: G2 a Far Future Continuation of G1

[Regitnui]

"It's secretly a continuation, but they'll actively deny this because they want to make a reboot. In fact, it's such a secret that the in-house expert on the last generation's lore has not been included. But it is a continuation, see, I've made a story that links the two, so it's obviously a continuation"

 

Isn't that what you're saying, Xel? I never had a long list of what was wrong with your theory. I had the one big objection that you're acknowledging and ignoring.

 

My point is that I can say that the story of bionicle this time around is based on a floating island, and the overarching story will be the Okotoans being invaded by the next continent their island collides with, but it would be as much unsubstantiated speculation as your theory is.

[Votuko]

"I never had a long list of what was wrong with your theory. I had the one big objection that you're acknowledging and ignoring.

Interesting...

I'd not say that it was so much that your GSB that was flawed as the whole thing. Your theory, like most Gen2-1 link-fics, retcons many fundamentals of the Gen1 story, while missing other points entirely.

Don't complain about someone pushing a loose pillar when the foundation is flawed.

Oops, now who put that quote there?

 

I do not think that it would be a secret from Greg, obviously. The new team would need his input to ensure there are no continuity errors. But when asked, Greg would have to say it is a reboot to avoid confusing the new fans. (Also remember that his "confirmation" was second-hand, ie he said something along the lines of "I can confirm that the new team has said it is a reboot and not a continuation.")

 

My theory is just a suggestion of how to explain the smiliarities between G1 and G2, while your new island example doesn't explain anything so isn't comparable. I think the biggest evidence in favour of a continuation right now is that currently, G2 doesn't seem to directly contradict any G1 canon. That may change as the story progresses (for example if Mata Nui turns up as a new mask maker that would sink this theory), but how many "hard reboots" of other franchises can you think of that didn't alter some detail of the original so as to make a continuation actually impossible?

[Archon~]

Honestly, I'd be with you trying to connect the few clues we have, but the fact that they have altered the Mata's personalities so much, reset them to their Mata-lookalikes, given Pohatu control over sand and I guess air/tornados and also made Lewa a Toa of Jungle points that this is in fact a fresh start. Actually, the fact that they gave Lewa Jungle is what convinced me.

Now, could you argue that this is some alternate universe? Of course. You could make all sorts of theories, but I don't think there is enough substance to make a story connection between the two. They both share the Toa, Masks, and Makuta, all which was the essence of Bionicle in its inception, but I think that's about it.

[Regitnui]

I do not think that it would be a secret from Greg, obviously. The new team would need his input to ensure there are no continuity errors. But when asked, Greg would have to say it is a reboot to avoid confusing the new fans. (Also remember that his "confirmation" was second-hand, ie he said something along the lines of "I can confirm that the new team has said it is a reboot and not a continuation.")

First off, stop being a smart Aleck.

 

Secondly, you're starting to sound desperate. GregF is not involved. The only way he would have any information is to ask for it. Who would tell him? The new story team. The new story team told him it was a reboot. Fine. Done. Link-fics like this torpedoed, sunk and left to be rediscovered centuries from now when future archeologists find it and marvel at the relics within.

 

Thirdly, let's look at your underlying logic, and that of all link-fic writers: The story team has said it is a reboot to attract new fans. How better to attract new fans then leave the tangled story of the previous iteration behind? Of course, we want to keep the old fans happy, so let's use some iconic names and have an easter egg hunt. There, sound logic. This isn't a continuation. It doesn't need to be a continuation. It just needs to evoke nostalgia for the old fans and give the new ones a sense of wonder.

 

Fourthly, the guy before the post of mine you latched onto had a long list. I was referring to his list, and how you complained about that when your whole idea is flawed from the get-go.

 

Fifthly, and before I wash my hands of you, when did you become a fan of gen1? I have a theory of my own to confirm.

[Votuko]

Secondly, you're starting to sound desperate. GregF is not involved. The only way he would have any information is to ask for it. Who would tell him? The new story team. The new story team told him it was a reboot. Fine. Done. Link-fics like this torpedoed, sunk and left to be rediscovered centuries from now when future archeologists find it and marvel at the relics within.

Ah, so your only objection to the theory is a Greg quote, but now you accept that he is not involved so interpreting what he said is a sign of desperation? Seems more like you are insulting yourself there, friend.

But for the record, Greg was consulted by the new story team, so should know whether it is a "hard reboot", or a "soft reboot" or a "medium-rare reboot" etc.

 

Fourthly, the guy before the post of mine you latched onto had a long list. I was referring to his list, and how you complained about that when your whole idea is flawed from the get-go.

Sorry, my mistake. I assumed you had some of your own evidence to back up the general insults that your post entirely consisted of.

Although I'm not sure which guy you mean. I was happy to answer bonesiii's good points, if that is who you mean, and I felt that my responses were pretty reasonable. But I agree that it is more fun to piggyback on someone else's objections that have already been answered, in order to make a "haha you are terrible post" which may or may not be against the rules of the forum.

 

Lastly, I have been a fan of BIONICLE since it started in 2001.

I wish you good luck on your hand-washing and your mildly pointed-sounding theory.

[Regitnui]

I never insulted you. I severly dislike link-fics like this, so I may have been dismissive, but I never insulted you.

 

Listen to Archon~. They list the main problems with link-fics, both yours and others'.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Regitnui

[bonesiii]

Guys, please be respectful. Both Regit and Xelphene's latest few posts have been a bit combative.

 

FTR, Xelphene, Regit's logic does seem pretty sound, so I'm really not sure what your posts are trying to drive at. It seems we all agree that what Greg told us is true -- that he was consulted by the new team, so knows what he's talking about when he says it isn't a continuation. I don't see how that helps your case...

 

And I thought this was the topic where I asked for the TTV quote about Greg allegedly lying. Did that get lost? I'd really like to know the answer to that. I feel I should clarify that point, BTW, because you said "few would mind" if he lied there. I should have made this clearer -- the issue isn't about numbers of people or minding, but that if Greg feels it's valid to lie about what's the case in canon, what else did he lie about? His answers would then all become mere suggestions instead of what's canon. Now, some might even not care about that, as a few don't seem to like the idea of canon anyways. But again, minding isn't the issue, it's confusion.

 

You're actually giving us an example here, apparently. A definitive quote was provided, that would seem to debunk your theory. In the old days I might even be closing the topic because of that, but as there were more details to discuss for clarification and it's true that it is, this time, an indirect source, so not quite as absolute as if the new story team had said it. Anyways, point is, you seem to be attempting, or did earlier, to say that the quote cannot be relied on by virtue of Greg allegedly having lied. Well, this is a good example of what people would do on anything where Greg gave an answer and why it should be bad.

 

So... figuring this case out should be top priority in this topic. Please inform.

 

A few nitpicks:

 

G2 doesn't seem to directly contradict any G1 canon.

I cited several in my first post. You did give a plausible way to wiggle out of it for the masks, but the rest appears to stand. And I wasn't even trying to make a complete list (I second Archon's post up there BTW).

 

for example if Mata Nui turns up as a new mask maker that would sink this theory

This statement confused me. Why would it? If this is the far future, couldn't Mata Nui's role change due to unknown events? More to the point, your theory even revived a confirmed-permanently-dead character who is a mask maker (Makuta) here, so it seems to me that by the same logic the theory is already sunk. (I'm just not sure the logic works anyways. The whole idea of your theory is to find explanations that make any of these things work despite their appearances, and I'd think Mata Nui is easier to explain than Makuta...)

 

But I agree that it is more fun to piggyback on someone else's objections that have already been answered, in order to make a "haha you are terrible post" which may or may not be against the rules of the forum.

Hopefully you see from above why your tone here is inadviseable. That aside, there's nothing wrong with somebody else agreeing that the issues I or others raised are issues, without making that the main point of their responses. (Regit's tone could have been a bit gentler too, though.)

 

I felt your response to me directly was respectful, though, so that's good. However, I'm not sure anything but the masks thing has really been answered. A few of the others have been tempered somewhat but I think on the whole they stand. I bring it up because of your above wording of "no direct contradiction" which I thought my post did point out several of. I can't help but wonder if you thought none of my points stand, in that wording. I'm probably reading too much into word choice, though.

[Votuko]

I never insulted you. I severly dislike link-fics like this, so I may have been dismissive, but I never insulted you.

Listen to Archon~. They list the main problems with link-fics, both yours and others'.

Ok, no hard feelings I hope. I was going to reply to Archon~ anyway so here we go.

 

Honestly, I'd be with you trying to connect the few clues we have, but the fact that they have altered the Mata's personalities so much, reset them to their Mata-lookalikes, given Pohatu control over sand and I guess air/tornados and also made Lewa a Toa of Jungle points that this is in fact a fresh start. Actually, the fact that they gave Lewa Jungle is what convinced me.

Well, the altered personalities are consistent with the Toa having lost their memories, including the wisdom that would have shaped their behaviour. The amnesia makes the Toa seem less mature, bringing up character flaws which are emphasised in the new story in order to help new fans to relate to the heroes.

 

I'd argue that the Toa don't really look like their Mata forms more than any other of their forms. They are more armoured than any previous versions (the armour being steadily increased over the years, starting with minimal armour on the Mata) and there is also the none (Mata) -> silver (Nuva / Adaptive Armour) -> gold (Okoto) armour "progression" going on. Similarly, the masks draw inspiration from both the basic and Nuva versions.

 

Pohatu does seem to have control of sand and sandstorms, but that makes sense because sand is smashed up stone. He can also fly about a bit using his Jetarangs, but that doesn't imply air control.

 

Lewa is not necessarily a Toa of Jungle - he could still be a Toa of Air. His webpage says "he communes with plants and the wind" and his mask is the "Jungle Mask" rather than the "Mask of (Element)" that all the other Toa have. The Protector of Jungle's elemental weapon is also the "Air Elemental Blaster", rather than "Jungle Elemental Blaster". Although I'm still waiting for more information, I suspect that "Jungle" is just the village title (inherited from the Jungle Agori tribe, or from living in a jungle) and if Lewa has any plant powers at all, they will be derived from his Air elemental powers (eg communing with plants could be by feeling the air they breathe or something).

 

As a side note, I just noticed the spikes on the Protector of Stone's armour. They seem appropriate for if the Stone village descended from Zesk, who had similar spikes. (They also fit desert hunter-gatherers but whatever... )

 

Edit: I will reply to your post, bonesiii, I will just have to try to find that quote (to be honest I forgot - sorry).

Edited January 11, 2015 by Xelphene

[derhenson]

I highly doubt that it was intended to be a continuation. It seems like too big of a stretch for LEGO. Anything's possible, though, and I really admire your theory and evidence. I can at last rest easy now by convincing myself that G2 is the same storyline. It's kind of like Daniel in BSG. Even though Ron Moore said straight up that Daniel had nothing to do with the events in the series, I still reconcile a lot of the mysteries in the show by telling myself that the seventh cylon was Kara's father. Basically headcanon.

 

Impressive work, my friend.

[Votuko]

@bonesiii I managed to find the original forum post (not easy since TTV's screenshot didn't show the page number ). It appears I was wrong about him saying "no", rather he said "don't know" when he actually did know. (Thirteenth post down the page.)

 

https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/td-p/6605180/highlight/true/page/587

 

If you don't mind, I will try to clarify what I think about the "reboot" Greg quote - hopefully I don't sound too repetitive. What Greg said amounted to "I can confirm that the new team has said 2015 is a reboot, not a continuation." What that seems to me is just a transmission of information - Greg was only passing on the message given at New York to fans who weren't there. Therefore even if it turned out to not be a reboot at all, Greg would not have lied because he said "the new guys said so", which they definitely did. I don't hope to expose Greg as a liar and call into question everything else he has said - I have a lot of respect for how he has kept a dialogue with the community over the years.

 

What I do believe is open to interpretation though, is whether this is a "hard reboot" or a "soft reboot". One possible "soft reboot" is a far-future continuation, if you interpret Greg's phrase "not a continuation" to mean "not a direct continuation of his 2010 story" (that was an issue a lot of fans wanted to know the answer to, so could be what he was referring to).

I agree that the counter-arguments you have put forward are very convincing, and highlight the unlikeliness of a theory such as mine, but seeing as I was able to give some reply to each point (I don't think I missed any) I feel that it would be too soon to say the theory was disproven. Perhaps each point you brought up divided the probability of the theory's correctness by ten (for example).

 

 

With regards to that section you quoted of my post to Regitnui, I admit that I was over-the-top and I regret posting it - I had been attempting to be polite up to that point although I may have come off as sarcastic at times. I suppose it shows that it's true that you shouldn't get too emotionally invested in a theory in case you start objecting to certain criticism! I will try to be more civil and I hope that Regitnui and I can put it behind us.

 

 

Finally, less relevant, but it may be of interest that on this page Greg says that he doesn't know if the G1 and G2 canons are linked:

https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/td-p/6605180/highlight/true/page/600

Suggesting that no quote from him can be used to prove that 2015 is a "hard reboot", as some people have tried to do on this forum (although I don't believe anyone on this thread has tried it).

[fishers64]

 

I want to say that there's a text version of it somewhere, but I can't find it. 

[bonesiii]

Thanks. Here's the quote:

 

Brikkyy wrote:

In October 2013 when TTV interviewed you, you said that you did not know if BIONICLE was coming back. Earlier you said that you've known since mid 2012. Were you lying to TTV or the user who asked the question?

I knew in spring 2013, but as a LEGO employee, I certainly could not discuss it in fall of 2013 - if I had leaked the news or even said I couldn't comment on it, which would have certainly implied that something was going on, I could have been fired. Asking a LEGO employee questions about future product plans is basically not a good idea, because we can't give honest answers. We're not allowed to give out that information.

 

Notice he doesn't admit that he lied, but he does seem to imply it. Sounds like the original quote was in that interview. I'm pretty sure this is the interview I heard, and I don't recall the quote. And I question whether "I don't know" is a lie, considering early plans could be indefinite, and even if they're planned as definite, things could change. He does say "we can't give honest answers", but I'm not sure if this means a lie or a clever answer. But at least it looks like now we know where to go to track down the original quote...

 

I don't have time to listen through that interview again, though, if it's the long one I'm recalling.

 

And now, headaches that may open up aside, we must ask if this helps your case here. Even if he felt that his bosses would require him to lie about a future LEGO line coming or not coming, is that the same as lying (or the new story team lying and his just passing it on) about a detail about this line once it's public? I don't think so, but I'd be interested to hear a case.

 

Basically, is there any reason they would have to lie about this being "not a continuation"?

 

If you don't mind, I will try to clarify what I think about the "reboot" Greg quote - hopefully I don't sound too repetitive. What Greg said amounted to "I can confirm that the new team has said 2015 is a reboot, not a continuation." What that seems to me is just a transmission of information - Greg was only passing on the message given at New York to fans who weren't there.

Yes, I'm clear on all that. But as I said, even if he doesn't know that it's a continuation and it is, letting him off the hook, if they know it is and said it isn't, then we still have a lying problem. This just means a different person besides Greg lied (or people), if your interpretation is correct.

 

Therefore even if it turned out to not be a reboot at all, Greg would not have lied because he said "the new guys said so", which they definitely did. I don't hope to expose Greg as a liar and call into question everything else he has said - I have a lot of respect for how he has kept a dialogue with the community over the years.

I know, but the issue is coming up here, regardless of your intent. And I did say earlier that Greg would not necessarily have lied in this case. Still, you brought up the example of a past alleged lie, so yeah.

 

And it isn't about "Greg being a liar" per se, but the fact that (at least outside this example? maybe? remains to be seen IMO but just for sake of analysis) he's proven himself reliable; when he words something as certain, it has always turned out to be the case. It's not that one lie would overturn all that per se, but that all of that makes the chances that this is a lie very unlikely, yanno? Now again, this doesn't mean the new story team will be so reliable, but I certainly hope they will be.

 

Admittedly, it's possible he misremembered their wording, and "not a continuation" may be his wording and not theirs. I dunno.

 

One possible "soft reboot" is a far-future continuation, if you interpret Greg's phrase "not a continuation" to mean "not a direct continuation of his 2010 story" (that was an issue a lot of fans wanted to know the answer to, so could be what he was referring to).

I agree that the counter-arguments you have put forward are very convincing, and highlight the unlikeliness of a theory such as mine, but seeing as I was able to give some reply to each point (I don't think I missed any) I feel that it would be too soon to say the theory was disproven.

I agree with all of this. Hence my not closing the topic. (Among other reasons mentioned.)

 

I think we just have to agree on the unlikeliness as the main point. Yeah, I wouldn't totally rule this out either, but since it's so unlikely, and the common understanding is so strongly evidenced, I think we're also pretty justified in this case in taking the common understanding of it as not the G1 universe as "almost certainly the case."

 

it may be of interest that on this page Greg says that he doesn't know if the G1 and G2 canons are linked

Keep in mind an alternate universe can be a link, or one in which some minor crossover event occurs. So even if they are said at any point to be linked, that doesn't say much... and doesn't mean they're the same universe. (I don't think you meant to say it does, but just for the record. )

 

BTW, two things about posting quotes from sources like Greg. First, you can link directly to the posts on LMB from that options button on each post. Second, I prefer that posts in S&T quote the statements in the post, in case there would in the future be a problem with the LMB (or other source sites) removing access to it, so the statements are in multiple places and more likely to be preserved.

 

Here's that quote:

 

 

Is the new Bionicle cannon conected to the old one.

You would need to ask someone from the new BIONICLE story team this question, cause I don't know the answer.

 

Incidentally, I'd add this as evidence against it being the same universe. You'd think something that basic would have been brought up in their discussions with Greg. (Of course, here's where the theory that when Greg says he doesn't know something he's lying comes in... but still... given his track record, and I'm not seeing a necessarily clear motive for hiding the answer here, I'm inclined to suspect not, strongly. )

[maxim21]

For what Greg said in TTV interview, it's around 8 minutes in.

I don't know if they are planning to bring it back, nobody have told me they are planning to bring it back but if they ever were going to, this would probably be the smartest thing to do.

[bonesiii]

Hm. Well, that makes "not a lie" even harder to see. Not knowing for sure it would happen doesn't get him off the hook as "planning" doesn't require that.

 

So... do we know for sure they had "planned to bring it back" at that point? Or was it just something they were kicking around as a possibility?

[maxim21]

Well, in the question you quoted in the post just above, Greg stated he knew by spring 2013 and this interview took place in october 2013.

[bonesiii]

I agree -- but still, did he know they were kicking around the idea, versus being dead-set against it? Or did he know they were definitely planning to bring it back? That quote isn't crystal clear about it.

 

The idea that it was a lie certainly seems best evidenced, though.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

Pohatu does seem to have control of sand and sandstorms, but that makes sense because sand is smashed up stone. He can also fly about a bit using his Jetarangs, but that doesn't imply air control.

 

Just want to point out: 

 

Although sand is made up of tiny rock particles, it cannot be controlled by Stone users of the Matoran Universe. However, Sand is its own Element on Spherus Magna.

 

Even if Agori and Matoran have somewhat merged and now the villagers are of sand, I don't think we can give Pohatu this power without retcons.

[fishers64]

I don't think that retcons apply in a reboot. Unless a definite connection to Gen 1 is established, we're not retconning anything. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by fishers64

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

Yes, I was using that as evidence against a connection. Sorry if that was unclear.

[Votuko]

 

 

 

 

Pohatu does seem to have control of sand and sandstorms, but that makes sense because sand is smashed up stone. He can also fly about a bit using his Jetarangs, but that doesn't imply air control.

 

 

Just want to point out: 

 

Although sand is made up of tiny rock particles, it cannot be controlled by Stone users of the Matoran Universe. However, Sand is its own Element on Spherus Magna.

 

 

Even if Agori and Matoran have somewhat merged and now the villagers are of sand, I don't think we can give Pohatu this power without retcons.

Thanks, I hadn't heard the "no control of sand" thing before - I had assumed that sand control could be an emergent ability from controlling stone, but this would say otherwise (I guess controlling each sand particle as if it were a single stone would be a bit much even for a Toa ). I'll have a look later and see if the article mentions the original source for that information (I don't fully trust BS01 - see earlier Kanohi discussion - but I hear that it is generally reliable).

 

Assuming that it is correct, I suppose we will have to wait and see whether Pohatu does any sand control in official media other than that which can be explained as a function of his Jetarangs (tenuous I know, but so far all the sandstorms he has produced have been around him while flying using his Jetarangs).

 

 

@bonesiii What you've said all seems fair to me. I will try to put the actual quotes in my posts in future - I'm still getting used to the quotes feature! (He says while failing to include a quote of the post he is replying to. )

Incidentally, I wonder if anyone has footage of the BIONICLE panel at which the team confirmed it is a reboot, to compare whether any wording (regarding "not a continuation") changed when Greg passed the message on.

[bonesiii]

Xel, I had mentioned the sand thing in my original post. I guess you missed it:

 

originally sand was to be in the purview of Stone, which is probably why there's so much of it in Po-Wahi. Later this was retconned so Sand was in the middle and part of neither (possibly with plans to use it later, which didn't happen for the MU but did for SM, obviously).

Source is Greg; it's canon. I remember so clearly because the original answer that it was part of Stone came in response to a debate I had with another member back in the day. And the later answer making it part of neither comes up all the time because Earth/Stone confusion does, so hard to forget. (Even for me lol.)

 

 

However, this does not absolutely disprove the theory either, since we're talking distant future, and the rules could change (esp. if Great Beings were contacted and resolution to their mysterious problems brought). But... unlikely. Just saying, it doesn't absolutely require a retcon of the past.

[Votuko]

Ah, I think I misunderstood what you meant by "in the middle and part of neither" and didn't realise the significance of it at the time. I see what you meant now.

 

Edit: I thought I'd visit the official website to check the extent of G2 Pohatu's sand control. I'd say it may still be open to interpretation.

Powers: Breaks and hurls rocks with unspeakable strength

Which is basic Stone stuff.

When thrown, these powerful weapons generate sandstorms along their path.

Suggesting the sandstorms in flight could be explained as a special ability of the Toa tools, but whether they require to draw Sand elemental energy to function is open to question. Edited January 13, 2015 by Xelphene

[Munty]

How this topic is still running is beyond me, I just want to mention one thing. NDAs.

 

An NDA, or Non-Disclosure Agreement, is a legally binding contract between two or more parties. In this case Greg was under an NDA from Lego regarding the return of Bionicle. If, when asked, he had been truthful about the return of Bionicle he would've broken his NDA, ruined all of Lego's planning, diminished the significance of the official reveal and as he mentioned himself LOST HIS JOB! Yes he DID lie, I don't think that can be debated. But he did so because he had literally no say in the matter. He was legally obliged to lie.

 

Now please stop relying on your 'Greg lied' argument while the rest of your reasoning is so utterly flawed.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Munty

[Lyichir]

How this topic is still running is beyond me, I just want to mention one thing. NDAs.

 

An NDA, or Non-Disclosure Agreement, is a legally binding contract between two or more parties. In this case Greg was under an NDA from Lego regarding the return of Bionicle. If, when asked, he had been truthful about the return of Bionicle he would've broken his NDA, ruined all of Lego's planning, diminished the significance of the official reveal and as he mentioned himself LOST HIS JOB! Yes he DID lie, I don't think that can be debated. But he did so because he had literally no say in the matter. He was legally obliged to lie.

 

Now please stop relying on your 'Greg lied' argument while the rest of your reasoning is so utterly flawed.

Whether or not he did literally lie (frankly, there's still no evidence he did since we don't know exactly when he started consulting on the rebooted story, or if he was involved with the set design at all), this is an important point. Equally important is the fact that anything short of a lie ("I'm not allowed to discuss that", etc.), would almost invariably amount to breaking the NDA in all but the most literal sense. I don't think any other Lego employee has to worry about this, but since such a huge number of classic Bionicle fans hold onto his every word as gospel, any minute change in Greg's answer to the same question he's been asked constantly since the original theme's end would pretty much confirm that Lego was bringing back the theme.

 

People talk like Greg's super-deceptive or something, but when fans have backed him into a corner where his only options are lying, losing his job, or cutting off communication with fans entirely, which would YOU prefer he did?

[Votuko]

Now please stop relying on your 'Greg lied' argument while the rest of your reasoning is so utterly flawed.

I never claimed that Greg lied in order to support this theory. It makes me sad how many times I have to restate that.

 

Edit: Seeing as all this talk of Greg lying once, ages ago, is getting a bit off-topic (maybe make a separate thread for it if you think it still needs discussion), it won't hurt if I mention my new theory:

 

You know how every time we watch BIONICLE videos the Vahi keeps appearing to us... What if it isn't really there at all? Maybe we are actually having a vision like Vakama had in Legends of Metru Nui and we have to go out and forge the Vahi in real life.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Xelphene

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

You know how every time we watch BIONICLE videos the Vahi keeps appearing to us... What if it isn't really there at all? Maybe we are actually having a vision like Vakama had in Legends of Metru Nui and we have to go out and forge the Vahi in real life.

 

...what ...

 

No, I don't think so.

[Munty]

...we have to go out and forge the Vahi in real life.

 

Wait, you mean actually go and make a mask? Like walk out my door right now and create some headgear that can control the flow of time?... I think I liked your last theory better man...

[Prowl Nightwolf]

May I ask a few questions regarding possible connections here with G1 and g2. I ask these because I have not followed the story as well as most of you.

• What is being defined here as a reboot? Not to rehash the "Greg" deal but I have to ask. What is he defining as coming or not coming back? I mean we already know this is not a direct continuation of whatever happened in 2010 right? So does/did his referral to Bionicle include that or the franchise as a hole?
  • If I may bring up another series that has another possible "not-connected; wait now it is?" deal and that is the Beast Wars series. Not sure how many here followed transformers back then but I see similarities here. By that I mean that when it was first concept and released it was just another Transformers series like the ones we get latter. Had no real connection to G1 accept for some similarities in names (Optimus, Megatron, Dinobot) and maybe something like being from Cybertron. I don't think the factions were even stated as being descendants of their G1 counterparts until much later. But like how Gen2 Bionicle has core aspects of its own G1 counterpart in the names department. With Beast Wars it was not designed as a continuation of the original G1 story at concept or even the first few episodes. However due perhaps to fan speculation or alike they started connecting the past and future even going as far as playing G1 content in the show(Actual depictions of the G1 characters at the end of season2 and also having the actual Starscream take over Waspinator's body.).
  •  
  • Anyway, such is a possibility here. Not only in regards to Greg's involvement but what could become of the story later. 
• So what exactly happened to the Original Toa-Mata in the story? Did they get destroyed, go back home, still existing, just vanish without a trace?
  • I ask in reference to how they came about in Gen2. Coming from the stars makes one think of how they may have come to this "planet" over wherever they were prior. Be it a Gen1 SM, or perhaps some other celestial body. Seeing as how the Toa-Mata got their names from their respective elemental villages and don't know if any of the other Toa did as well. Seeing as how from what I understand it, the Toa-Mata were never Matoran and possibly the only Toa to be able to make this claim. They would not have Matoran names to carry into their stages. This brings me to another point in maybe it is, maybe it isn't a far future rendition of Gen1.
• If by chance these so named Toa are the original Toa-Mata sent to this planet by some spell or ritual their design and memory loss could be directly liked in Gen1 with the Matoran pods. When a Matoran was placed in a pod their bodies shrunk and whether it is due to time or just being placed in a pod period, they lost their memory. This can be transferred theoretically to the Toa as well. So depending on how long they were up there in the heavens their shape and memories of their past could be called into question. Or... like in Beastwars (Megatron. Optimus, Dinobot) their names could be just artistic choice to entice older fans as well as new one. Unless defined in story both options are up in the air.
• I heard that the protector masks are passed down from father to son in the Lego.com video. So there is some form of reproduction going on but to what extent eludes me. As is the case with many mechanical beings they may not reproduce the same what we do. Other than this term of "father to son" is there really any speak of genetics or family groups outside of the tribes themselves as a whole? If not maybe this is a general term meaning the next generation. Also if they keep with the Gen1 of Gali being Female what becomes of the water tribe?
  this leads be to my next question.
• Have they yet to define genders of any kind in the story? I mean is it possible that regardless of vocal patterns being more feminine (Yet I have not heard) is there a possibility that this time around they are only all male or perhaps gender neutral using the general male terms. Now it is easy to speculate that due to gen1 Gali and any water tribe will be inherently female. But if by chance this is not the case?
• What was the reproduction rule if any in gen1? I mean in the game and maybe the movies it was seen that a male character found favor with a Ga-Matoran in what could be deemed a relationship manner. This could prelude to "puppy love" and nothing more as there was no reproduction in gen1. Or perhaps any actual was done by a forge or machine. Was a finite number of matoran and if they died off or were otherwise destroyed that was it?
• The reason I ask these is to pick apart any possible ideas that this is a possible distant future of 2001-2010 for approval or disproval alike. By asking seemingly simple questions you could come to a bigger conclusion than just stabbing in the dark.

 

So have covered Greg, I have covered possibilities of the Toa being the same characters or just homages, I've also covered the possibility that the new tribes could be direct descendants of the Matoran of old or maybe a whole new species on a completely different planet. We already know the island is not Mata-nui or any gen1 that we know of. So it is safe to say that they are on a different planet all together. Now the whole universe alternate universe thing can still be brought up to question. If it is proven that not only are these new Toa not the original, they are not even homages to them then it still remains that it could be in the same universe just a vastly different part of it. This is up to one's opinion unless completely discredited by writers.

 

Me personally I like the idea of them being in the same universe even if they do look different just because it is the "Bionicle Universe" as a whole. Unless something that happened in gen1 specifically effected every part of the universe and thus must have affected the planet and island gen2 is based on we cannot simply use that as a speculation to say it is not the same universe. It is at all possible that whatever if anything did span the universe as a whole you still run into the whole timeline deal. Perhaps Gen2 is based way before the events of gen1 and not so much in the future.

 

Anyway I think I am done here for now. Thanks for your time and hopefully the questions I asked can be addressed to help further along this topic idea.

[Votuko]

@ProwlNightwolf

I think I can answer most of your questions, if not all of them.

1. So far G2 has been described just as a "reboot" and we know that it is not carrying on the story of G1 from where it was left off in 2010. So something happening in the same universe as G1 hasn't been ruled out, just is very unlikely.

2. The Toa Mata existed up until the end of G1 - they were helping the Matoran settle on Spherus Magna among other activities. In G2 they didn't necessarily "come from the stars", but they definitely fell from very high up. (I theorise that they were in orbit around the planet, in Toa canisters of some sort.)

3. In G1, the Toa arrived on Mata Nui with memory loss too. It had been wiped by the Order of Mata Nui (someone correct me if I'm remembering wrong) using some technology other than the Matoran pods, so even in G1 there were multiple ways to lose your memory.

4. It seems like there is some sort of reproduction in the G2 villagers because there is that one fire villager who looks like a child who is shown in the videos.

5. Protector genders haven't been confirmed yet, and as the videos on BIONICLE.com are narrated by the same male narrator that doesn't give any clues. (But I would hope that there are equal numbers of villagers of each gender in each tribe, which is what we had with the Agori, the inhabitants of Spherus Magna from G1. However, that brings up the problem of the prophesy being passed from "father to son", which would seem unnecessarily sexist if are also mothers and daughters. Hopefully that is just a figure of speech, but time will tell...)

6. Greg has stated that there was no "romantic" love in G1, because as you say, Matoran did not reproduce, so had no need for it. Greg said that scenes that imply romance in sources like MNOG are non-canon, and were added by animators who didn't know it was incorrect. And yes, there were a finite number of Matoran. The Red Star was intended to "repair" Matoran who died, so that the number in the universe didn't dwindle, but that system didn't function correctly.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Thank you for your reply Xelphene,

 

Based on your answers I can surmise the following

 

1) Based on the premise of this topic asking if G2 is a far future of G1 it can be surmised that the Toa-Mata these are named after remained so while this does not inherently disprove the possibility of them being the same it cannot prove it either without more information. So let's continue.

 

2) This "story" while similar to what we got in G1 can be just that as we are told this does not directly continue the G1 story as it left off. Now because of this and knowledge of prehistoric man supposedly knowing about astrological events not on earth we can say that this being a separate planet within the same universe. You did not answer if there was or wasn't a universally spread event that these inhabitants would know about from Gen1. Now taking a page from our own pre-history regarding multiple civilizations having very similar stories about such events as a great flood or Dragons, ect. While confined to our planet we can surmise that it is not at all impossible that cross planet individuals could know about events on other planets and have myths or legends about them. Thus why both stories have similar legends.

 

3) There was in fact a finite number of the Matoran species and they were created or rebuilt by this red star. Possibly sent back in Toa-pods or alike? So no actual reproduction took place in the romantic sense. This brings up another question. Once rebuilt do they return as Matoran or whatever they died as? Also how does that bring the Bohrok who are said to be dead Matoran into play? Anyway if Gen2 follows this pattern and reproduction is based on rebuilding rather than creating new life. Then it can be surmised that the term "Father to son" is just that, a term. As one's "son" could actually be their great-grandfather or something. Depending on that the lifespan is. More info is needed on gender roles in regard to tribes first.

 

Is that basically it then?

[bonesiii]

Prowl:

 

1) Yes, that's possible, but it could work with alternate universes, so that doesn't say much. (Reminds me of an episode of the Hawaii Five-0 reimagining, in which brief clips apparently from an original episode were played as if, if badmem miraculously serves today, that episode had been in the same universe, even though the rest of the reimagining series clearly cannot.)

 

2) I presume you're asking how Xel's theory would answer this? Any number of events could alter them in many ways, knowing Bionicle's traditions of transformations (and memory loss). If you're asking canonically, they're alive on SM (but methinks you weren't asking that so yeah).

 

Note that in-story the Toa weren't named after villages, but the elemental prefixes in general. Out-story I'm not sure which came first, but probably the Toa's names.

 

And no, they're not the only Toa to be made as Toa from the start -- Helryx was too. There was also Orde, and possibly others.

 

4) G1 beings do die of old age eventually, so generations in that sense are possible. It would have one major hole, since the Toa Mata were some of the oldest MU beings... except the "timeless" description and the emphasis on the Vahi being involved somehow may imply they were preserved in some kind of stasis, which would actually make sense for Xel's theory (but a stasis of time slowing, to avoid the gradual rotting effect of the original canisters' stasis). And again, I think the theory has already fallen apart for other reasons, so these clues are probably a G2-specific thing unrelated to G1, same as Makuta being here with details changed.

 

5) I think you're now asking in context of the normal view of G2 as a reimagining. Seems pretty unlikely LEGO will repeat the issues G1 had with that, and especially make it much worse by making them all one gender. It's possible they'll do the Ga thing of G1, but I suspect it will be like Agori.

 

6) The G1 canon was that the artificial lifeforms didn't have romantic feelings. They did have close friendships. And there was no reproduction, at least not that would be relevant to romance; they were made in mysterious machines (which LEGO decided to never explain). The natural beings of SM did have romance and reproduction akin to the real world.

 

 

Re: 'homages' -- not entirely sure I got what you meant, but for whatever it's worth, I think it's clear from the G2 design images LEGO has released that show some snapshots from G1 art that the callbacks to G1 in G2 are indeed homages.

 

 

 

Xel:

 

3) No, the Order didn't wipe the Toa Mata's memories. That was an unforeseen side effect of spending so much time in the canisters. (I forget offhand, though, if that decay was happening throughout the 100,000 years, or if this only happened since the launch malfunction that caused them to drift in the ocean for 1000 years. I also forget how I handled it in my retelling. :| )

 

5) Incidentally, how many Protector voices have we heard so far? I seem to be only recalling the one off the top of my head.

 

6) Incorrect about the finite number; see above answer. Dead MU beings were replaced, but that was supposed to only be needed for the ones whose brains were destroyed thus couldn't be revived by the RS, or vaporized completely, etc. It was a drain on (as yet unidentified) "resources" to make a new being (hence the RS), but it was still possible.

[Votuko]

@bonesiii

3) Ah, that makes sense. In fact I must have known that quite recently because when I was coming up with this theory I put the G2 Toa's memory loss down to being in Toa canisters in orbit around Spherus Magna for a long time (maybe to hide from Marendar or something, or just to wait for a time that they were more needed). How I forgot that, I don't know...

 

5) Yep, just the one. (But hopefully we will be introduced to more now that Tahu has got "the powwwweeeeeerrrrrr" .)

 

6) That's cool, I didn't know that. Did the replacements stop being sent when the Red Star's teleport system broke?

[bonesiii]

6) No, the replacement machines were in the MU, not the RS. The RS only handled revivals.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Yeah unless this app game has some voice acting in it the only Protector we've heard would be the one of Fire. This is due to it only showing Tahu's arrival and the others were only suggested as landing from the beams of light and each having a quick vid of them reaching their respective golden mask. That is if the voice in question was not also the narrator of the Toa vids. This would also mean that Tahu is the only voice we've heard as well.

 

5) Yep, just the one. (But hopefully we will be introduced to more now that Tahu has got "the powwwweeeeeerrrrrr" .)

Did you actually do a Heman reference? lol.

[Votuko]

Here's something that could count as circumstantial evidence for a continuation theory. It was posted on the BIONICLE Facebook page along with the Legend video:

 

The island of Okoto is a mystical place. Today it still reminds us of an ancient era in Bionicle history. Can you discover a sign from the old days in the current story trailer? Let us know what you discover and where to find it in the comments.

What I'm interested in is the second sentence. "Ancient era" seems to imply the sentence is talking about "history" in-story (which would be thousands of years ago), as opposed to "history" out-of-story (which is at most only fifteen). So it's suggesting that from the perspective of G2, G1 is history in-story, not just out-of-story - a continuation!

 

Of course, the person who wrote this may just be bad at conveying meaning in their posts, but they are writing as if it is common knowledge that G2 is a continuation (if they are a member of the story team, maybe it is ).

But it really is odd wording otherwise. Why not say "another era" or "a distant era" or "another story" or "another world" etc. - there are just so many ways of not implying a historical link that it seems implausible to think that it was accidental.

[The 1st Shadow]

Here's something that could count as circumstantial evidence for a continuation theory. It was posted on the BIONICLE Facebook page along with the Legend video:

 

The island of Okoto is a mystical place. Today it still reminds us of an ancient era in Bionicle history. Can you discover a sign from the old days in the current story trailer? Let us know what you discover and where to find it in the comments.

What I'm interested in is the second sentence. "Ancient era" seems to imply the sentence is talking about "history" in-story (which would be thousands of years ago), as opposed to "history" out-of-story (which is at most only fifteen). So it's suggesting that from the perspective of G2, G1 is history in-story, not just out-of-story - a continuation!

 

Of course, the person who wrote this may just be bad at conveying meaning in their posts, but they are writing as if it is common knowledge that G2 is a continuation (if they are a member of the story team, maybe it is ).

But it really is odd wording otherwise. Why not say "another era" or "a distant era" or "another story" or "another world" etc. - there are just so many ways of not implying a historical link that it seems implausible to think that it was accidental.

 

It most likely just means BIONICLE history for us, rather than the story itself. An island separated into different elemental regions, villagers terrorized by vicious creatures, six powerful heroes come to save the day... It just meant as a nod to the longtime fans of the series.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

This talking about the illusive Vahi I keep hearing about but don't remember seeing? Still waiting for a screen cap of that thing in the Gen2 vids.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

This talking about the illusive Vahi I keep hearing about but don't remember seeing? Still waiting for a screen cap of that thing in the Gen2 vids.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Oh wow, Prowl is blind... There they are... plain as the Mask on my face.

[Regitnui]

Let me toss some fuel on this link-fic fire:

 

Has anyone considered that the Masters were named by the Protectors? This could be taken as the names being those of mythical past heroes in an era centuries after Marendar murdered all the Toa. The villagers remember the names of the Toa Mata as those of the greatest heroes, and name the heroes they summon after the great heroes in the hopes that these new heroes live up to the legends.