Kestora Theory

[Mailli]

This may be a bit of an over-ambitious leap, but could it be possible that the kestora are matoran of shadow?

 

Firstly, shadow is the only element not to be naturally represented in a tribe of matoran, despite not being considered evil when the MU was created. This is a perfect slot for the kestora to fill.

 

Secondly, kestora are not sapient unlike matoran, but this is only because they were excluded from Velika's awakening. If they were inside the robot during the awakening, there is no reason why they would not have gained sapience.

 

Thirdly, their colours are black and purple. Although they lack red, these two colours are both related to shadow.

 

Fourthly, their job is perfectly themed for shadow matoran; resurrecting the dead. The Makuta are the most shadow themed species in the MU, and specialise as scientists. Necromancy of mechanical beings is a rather morbid and "sciency" task, relating the element of shadow.

 

Fifthly, they are perfect mirrors of av-matoran, who are linked to the opposite element. The av-matoran are located in the heart of the MU, while the kestora live on the edge. Karda-Nui resurrects the Great Spirit, while the Red Star resurrects its inhabitants. The energy storms represent rebirth, while the Red Star is almost like an afterlife.

 

Of course, there are problems with this theory. Why aren't the kestora called kra-matoran if they are matoran? My best answer is because the matoran named themselves after they became sapient. I don't think this is a certain fact, but it's my best answer.

 

Any criticism pointing out mistakes I made is welcome, and thank you for any feedback!

Edited January 12, 2015 by Mailli

[derhenson]

I like the symmetry it adds to the story, but I doubt it's compatible with the canon.

 

Overall, good thinking!

Edited January 12, 2015 by derhenson

[The 1st Shadow]

No. They're a separate race. Color had nothing to do with it. Look at Vican. He was a Le-Matoran that got his light drained. He kept the green coloration, but darker hues were added. The Kestora.

 

The reason concerning the Element of Shadow is that it was reserved for specifically powerful beings. Same goes for Light. Notice how the Av-Matoran, unlike any others, had access to limited elemental power (i.e. bolts of light, altering the way light reflects off their armor to change their color). Light and Shadow were designed to be the far extremes. Av-Matoran existed because they were the prototype for other Matoran, and the GBs didn't want two races of super-Matoran running around.

 

The GBs designed them with the sapience to make them better equipped for rebuilding living beings, and approaching the problems in a more creative manner than a more basic machine would.

 

Black and purple? Related to shadow? You might wanna check the BS01 pages for Earth and Gravity, then. In fact, Gravity is solely based around those colors!

 

I don't see how Shadow and death are related. The Makuta weren't intended to be evil in the first place, and they represent Shadow more than anyone. Notice that the Makuta were intended to CREATE Rahi, not resurrect the dead.

 

Actually, Karda Nui is the energy generator, not a "reboot the system button." The Av-Matoran were actually located in the dome walls OUTSIDE of Karda Nui, as the energy storms would have vaporized them all instantly. After the robot crashed and deactivated, the energy storms dissipated, and their villages (which stalactites had grown underneath) fell into the massive cavern and rested there until the Staff of Artakha restored the MU.

 

So, answer's no. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by ~T1S~

[bonesiii]

Literally? Methinks no.

 

However, it's possible the concept was part of the inspiration for them. We've discussed in past topics how having a small number of highly powerful Shadow beings, the Makuta, seems to have been used as the replacement for the concept of Shadow Matoran/Toa/Turaga.

 

It may be that the Great Beings saw the Makuta as the Toa replacement, and Kestora as the Matoran replacement.

 

If so, we wouldn't expect to see them calling the Kestora Kra-Matoran, but there could still be a loose connection.

 

 

Edit:

 

Black and purple? Related to shadow? You might wanna check the BS01 pages for Earth and Gravity, then. In fact, Gravity is solely based around those colors!

Purple is used for Shadow in many franchises outside Bionicle, and Gen 2 Makuta even uses purple in his color scheme. Gen 1 canon doesn't feature this association, as far as I recall, though. But I read the topic starter as speaking generally rather than in Bionicle canon per se.

 

Edit 2: Actually, come to think of it:

 

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/b/b1/Shadow_Kraata.PNG

Edited January 12, 2015 by bonesiii

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

I really like this theory, especially for the mirror point you mentioned. But I think Greg has confirmed that there are no natural Matoran of Shadow, though I don't have a quote on me. *checks BS01*

 

Yes, but it seems that Shadow Matoran are different from hypothetical Kra-Matoran in that they are created by draining any variety of Matoran entirely of light. Kra-Matoran would (hypothetically) retain some inner light, despite their elemental affiliation.

 

Ressurection of beings and creation of Rahi actually seem pretty similar. Perhaps Shadow originally had a connotation of science? This would be consistent with the Kestora's role.

 

Yeah... probably not, but certainly headcanon-worthy.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Black and purple? Related to shadow? You might wanna check the BS01 pages for Earth and Gravity, then. In fact, Gravity is solely based around those colors!

Purple is used for Shadow in many franchises outside Bionicle, and Gen 2 Makuta even uses purple in his color scheme. Gen 1 canon doesn't feature this association, as far as I recall, though. But I read the topic starter as speaking generally rather than in Bionicle canon per se.

 

Edit 2: Actually, come to think of it:

 

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/b/b1/Shadow_Kraata.PNG

Outside G1 canon, yes, I know that. This is talking about something within that, though.

 

But remember what we know about Shadow Kraata. They're just level 7 of ALL types of kraata. You could have a L7 Kraata of Shattering. Being level 7 does not give them the element of Shadow. So, that's hardly an example of element/color coordination.

 

On that same note, what is the color of a Power Scream Rahkshi? Purple. Power Scream is more of a Sonics ability than it is of Shadow.

Edited January 12, 2015 by ~T1S~

[Mailli]

No. They're a separate race. Color had nothing to do with it. Look at Vican. He was a Le-Matoran that got his light drained. He kept the green coloration, but darker hues were added. The Kestora.

 

The reason concerning the Element of Shadow is that it was reserved for specifically powerful beings. Same goes for Light. Notice how the Av-Matoran, unlike any others, had access to limited elemental power (i.e. bolts of light, altering the way light reflects off their armor to change their color). Light and Shadow were designed to be the far extremes. Av-Matoran existed because they were the prototype for other Matoran, and the GBs didn't want two races of super-Matoran running around.

 

The GBs designed them with the sapience to make them better equipped for rebuilding living beings, and approaching the problems in a more creative manner than a more basic machine would.

 

Black and purple? Related to shadow? You might wanna check the BS01 pages for Earth and Gravity, then. In fact, Gravity is solely based around those colors!

 

I don't see how Shadow and death are related. The Makuta weren't intended to be evil in the first place, and they represent Shadow more than anyone. Notice that the Makuta were intended to CREATE Rahi, not resurrect the dead.

 

Actually, Karda Nui is the energy generator, not a "reboot the system button." The Av-Matoran were actually located in the dome walls OUTSIDE of Karda Nui, as the energy storms would have vaporized them all instantly. After the robot crashed and deactivated, the energy storms dissipated, and their villages (which stalactites had grown underneath) fell into the massive cavern and rested there until the Staff of Artakha restored the MU.

 

So, answer's no. 

I kind of imagined all the corrupted matoran as "artificial" kra-matoran, since they were previously "normal" matoran, and hence why they kept their colours.

 

Fair enough about shadow only being for powerful beings, but the kestora were special...

 

Kestora only have robot sapience. Don't know what you mean by creativity.

 

Black definitely relates to shadow, but admittedly, purple doesn't.

 

The Makuta were built to create rahi, which gave them the appearance of scientists. Death and shadow are not evil, but both are morbid.

 

Karda Nui has been used as a reboot button, yet it's not it's original purpose. The red star's original purpose was to help the MU take off from planets, not resurrect the dead.

 

I don't mean to be stubborn, but I feel you may have not understood some of my evidence.

[The 1st Shadow]

I kind of imagined all the corrupted matoran as "artificial" kra-matoran, since they were previously "normal" matoran, and hence why they kept their colours.

 

Fair enough about shadow only being for powerful beings, but the kestora were special...

 

Kestora only have robot sapience. Don't know what you mean by creativity.

 

Black definitely relates to shadow, but admittedly, purple doesn't.

 

The Makuta were built to create rahi, which gave them the appearance of scientists. Death and shadow are not evil, but both are morbid.

 

Karda Nui has been used as a reboot button, yet it's not it's original purpose. The red star's original purpose was to help the MU take off from planets, not resurrect the dead.

 

I don't mean to be stubborn, but I feel you may have not understood some of my evidence.

 

That's because they are. The GBs didn't make Shadow Matoran to begin with.

 

Correct. They were designed for a special purpose.

 

Not every death was going to be the same. Someone could have gotten stabbed in the chest, another could have drowned, another could have had the life-force sucked out of them. You'd have to be creative to find ways to fix all the different kinds of damage that could have been done.

 

*Point accounted for*

 

Not sure how you mean by "morbid." Shadow is just the absence of light. On a hot, sunny day, you would see the shade (aka shadow) as a good thing, right?

 

Yes it was. If it wasn't originally meant to resurrect the dead, then the GBs wouldn't have put the Kestora in there with all the necessary technology to do so.

 

 

I understand the point you were trying to make, but you said so yourself, this theory has holes. Lots of them.

Edited January 12, 2015 by ~T1S~

[bonesiii]

But remember what we know about Shadow Kraata. They're just level 7 of ALL types of kraata.

For purposes of the inspiration version of the theory I mentioned, all that's needed is the idea of a connection between "Shadow" and purple here. (The idea being in the Great Beings' minds.)

 

Note too that having purple and black be Gravity's colors (and purple occasionally also going with Earth) does also show an idea-connection, as black is literally the color of shadow.

 

On that same note, what is the color of a Power Scream Rahkshi? Purple.

This isn't really relevant, as all the colors are associated with essentially (mostly) random powers on the Kraata and Rahkshi color charts. (And purple is also associated with Adaptation, Accuracy, and Mind Reading. Rahi Control if you count Magenta.) But the Shadow Matoran, being the top level for all Kraata of any power, shows a connection that doesn't appear random.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

But remember what we know about Shadow Kraata. They're just level 7 of ALL types of kraata.

For purposes of the inspiration version of the theory I mentioned, all that's needed is the idea of a connection between "Shadow" and purple here. (The idea being in the Great Beings' minds.)

 

Note too that having purple and black be Gravity's colors (and purple occasionally also going with Earth) does also show an idea-connection, as black is literally the color of shadow.

 

On that same note, what is the color of a Power Scream Rahkshi? Purple.

This isn't really relevant, as all the colors are associated with essentially (mostly) random powers on the Kraata and Rahkshi color charts. (And purple is also associated with Adaptation, Accuracy, and Mind Reading. Rahi Control if you count Magenta.) But the Shadow Matoran, being the top level for all Kraata of any power, shows a connection that doesn't appear random.

 

In the kraata's case, "Shadow" was just the name. A good real-world example is Iceland and Greenland. Last I checked, Iceland is the green one, and Greenland is covered in ice.

 

Entirely relevant. I was saying that the depiction of color in a non-Matoran being has no relation to elemental powers. You wouldn't say Brutaka has Psionic abilities because of his color scheme, would you? Ehlek isn't Air because of his color scheme. Similarly, you wouldn't say a Kestora had the power of Gravity, Shadow, or Power Scream due to their coloration.

Edited January 12, 2015 by ~T1S~

[bonesiii]

The name doesn't absolutely prove an idea connection, but it's certainly strong evidence.

 

I was saying that the depiction of color in a non-Matoran being has no relation to elemental powers.

In some, but in others it does (Skakdi for example), and whether it does in Kestora or not is the question the topic is asking about. I doubt the story team planned this, but it could work in the version I gave, methinks. And their being inspired by the idea of Shadow Matoran doesn't require elemental powers; it could be similar to the "Shadow" association of Shadow Kraata, and the color purple there.

[northmarch]

A surprisingly plausible idea. I'm going to agree with Bones in that, Kestora being a stand in is more likely than them being literal Kra-matoran.

When you say shadow is the only element not represented by a Matoran tribe, are you forgetting sand and acid or purposely discounting them due to arguable status as elements (IMO acid has just as much rite to be considered an element as shadow or sand but that's another topic

 

Not sure how you mean by "morbid." Shadow is just the absence of light. On a hot, sunny day, you would see the shade (aka shadow) as a good thing, right?

In our world, yes but 'elemental' Shadow in Bionicle has clearly been represented as an actual, tangible thing.

[The 1st Shadow]

The name doesn't absolutely prove an idea connection, but it's certainly strong evidence.

 

I was saying that the depiction of color in a non-Matoran being has no relation to elemental powers.

In some, but in others it does (Skakdi for example), and whether it does in Kestora or not is the question the topic is asking about. I doubt the story team planned this, but it could work in the version I gave, methinks. And their being inspired by the idea of Shadow Matoran doesn't require elemental powers; it could be similar to the "Shadow" association of Shadow Kraata, and the color purple there.

Recall that the Skakdi's powers are a result of Spiriah's tampering, and not part of the GB's original design.

 

I can get behind the idea that they are the stand-in for Shadow Matoran, though, even if there is no elemental connection. That makes sense.

 

EDIT:

 

In our world, yes but 'elemental' Shadow in Bionicle has clearly been represented as an actual, tangible thing.

 

That was after the GBs implemented it into the MU. Before then, on Spherus Magna, it would have the same exact nature as it does on our world. The GBs would have implemented it as it represents a force of nature, and they did not intend for it to be an "evil" force. So, I don't know what your point is.

Edited January 12, 2015 by ~T1S~

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

Recall that the Skakdi's powers are a result of Spiriah's tampering, and not part of the GB's original design.

 

Not having elemental powers doesn't mark them as not of an element. Case in point: Matoran. Skakdi could have had elemental affiliations, like Matoran do, before Spiriah came along.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Recall that the Skakdi's powers are a result of Spiriah's tampering, and not part of the GB's original design.

 

Not having elemental powers doesn't mark them as not of an element. Case in point: Matoran. Skakdi could have had elemental affiliations, like Matoran do, before Spiriah came along.

 

They could, but what evidence do we have of that? 

 

EDIT: And Matoran DO have elemental abilities, just not in the sense that a Ta-Matoran can shoot fire out of their hands. Instead, the power manifests as special traits that are specific to individual types of Matoran (Ta-Matoran=heat resistance, Vo-Matoran=shock resistance, Fe-Matoran=endurance).

Edited January 12, 2015 by ~T1S~

[bonesiii]

When you say shadow is the only element not represented by a Matoran tribe, are you forgetting sand and acid or purposely discounting them due to arguable status as elements (IMO acid has just as much rite to be considered an element as shadow or sand but that's another topic

The acid issue aside, pretty sure the topic starter meant MU elements, since obviously there wouldn't be Matoran of non-MU elements. So Sand wouldn't count.

 

T1, that's a good point about the Skakdi, but your statement was a universal negative, and those are usually unreliable. Has Greg said no species of the protodermic beings other than Matoran have colors going with elemental associations?

 

And there's also the Agori, who the GBs would obviously know about. Their elemental associations seem to be more tradition and cultural identity than anything connected with powers (at least per se; there's some question about that, but long story you probably know heh). And if you're counting Matoran elemental traits as "powers", how do you know the Kestora aren't given such a thing?

 

My point, though, was simply that the idea could have inspired the color scheme. Nothing else is required for this but an association between that color and the idea of Shadow. Powers or no powers is irrelevant, unless it can be shown that the Great Beings had some sort of absolute rule against that sort of thing. (And I don't know that we can absolutely rule out actual powers, but that's just going off memory.)

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

 

Recall that the Skakdi's powers are a result of Spiriah's tampering, and not part of the GB's original design.

 

Not having elemental powers doesn't mark them as not of an element. Case in point: Matoran. Skakdi could have had elemental affiliations, like Matoran do, before Spiriah came along.

 

They could, but what evidence do we have of that? 

 

 

The fact that every Skakdi whose elemental power we know of (the six Piraka and Nektann) have elemental powers aligning with their colors would imply that whatever Spiriah did to give them powers, it aligned with their dormant element, because I'm thinking it unlikely Spiriah took the time to apply a different element-infusing process for different Skakdi based upon color. If I may go off on a tangent here, I think Spiriah would have had to use viruses spread over the entire island, possibly in the water, to reach every Skakdi, and if he's doing that he's not going to be able to pick and choose what power to give them just so that they're consistent with Matoran elemental colors. (Why would he do that anyways?) Basically, the alternative that they were colored but not elemental makes less sense.

 

Of course, there is a different alternative: that the Skakdi gained both elemental powers and colors through the tampering. But I digress.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Johnrahk

[The 1st Shadow]

 

The fact that every Skakdi whose elemental power we know of (the six Piraka and Nektann) have elemental powers aligning with their colors would imply that whatever Spiriah did to give them powers, it aligned with their dormant element, because I'm thinking it unlikely Spiriah took the time to apply a different element-infusing process for different Skakdi based upon color. If I may go off on a tangent here, I think Spiriah would have had to use viruses spread over the entire island, possibly in the water, to reach every Skakdi, and if he's doing that he's not going to be able to pick and choose what power to give them just so that they're consistent with Matoran elemental colors. (Why would he do that anyways?) Basically, the alternative that they were colored but not elemental makes less sense.

 

Of course, there is a different alternative: that the Skakdi gained both elemental powers and colors through the tampering. But I digress.

 

I've actually thought of that, myself. I found it odd that, despite not being Matoran/Toa/Turaga, the Skakdi had colors AND elements that matched the aforementioned beings. I suspect that they all had more metallic colors (the gold, silver, and gunmetal of their torsos) and Spiriah tried to create different elemental tribes among the Skakdi. We know that there were different factions after the Skakdi went to war with each other, but we don't know what divided the groups. Their civil war happened after Spiriah's tampering, so I suspect that whatever it was that he did to them, it had a key factor in what led to the fighting.

[fishers64]

Regardless of whether or not Kestora are Shadow-affiliated, it would be pretty obvious that they aren't Matoran, correct? They're something else. They wouldn't be Kra-Matoran, no matter what. 

 

 

 

The fact that every Skakdi whose elemental power we know of (the six Piraka and Nektann) have elemental powers aligning with their colors would imply that whatever Spiriah did to give them powers, it aligned with their dormant element, because I'm thinking it unlikely Spiriah took the time to apply a different element-infusing process for different Skakdi based upon color. If I may go off on a tangent here, I think Spiriah would have had to use viruses spread over the entire island, possibly in the water, to reach every Skakdi, and if he's doing that he's not going to be able to pick and choose what power to give them just so that they're consistent with Matoran elemental colors. (Why would he do that anyways?) Basically, the alternative that they were colored but not elemental makes less sense.

 

Of course, there is a different alternative: that the Skakdi gained both elemental powers and colors through the tampering. But I digress.

 

I've actually thought of that, myself. I found it odd that, despite not being Matoran/Toa/Turaga, the Skakdi had colors AND elements that matched the aforementioned beings. I suspect that they all had more metallic colors (the gold, silver, and gunmetal of their torsos) and Spiriah tried to create different elemental tribes among the Skakdi. We know that there were different factions after the Skakdi went to war with each other, but we don't know what divided the groups. Their civil war happened after Spiriah's tampering, so I suspect that whatever it was that he did to them, it had a key factor in what led to the fighting.

 

I thought that was because one of the viruses was designed to make them more violent. Spirah wanted soldiers for an army, not a bunch of peaceful people that suddenly had elemental powers. 

[Toa Komali]

Well now this is a very interesting concept. The Kestora from what I've seen look much like Matoran of the southern continent with a hordika like chest plate and all so it has some merit.

 

I think it maybe very unlikely but it is a good concept. I'd say that the Kestora at the very least follow a Matoran like design. Weather they have element connection is a bit hard to see. The fact that they are in the Red Star as a polar opposite of Av-Matoran being next to the core of the MU is a nice detail I hadn't even thought of.

 

Shadow/Darkness as a element has been represented in other media with purple as purple is the closest we can get to black light it makes sense. Though in the MU the most common color connected with Shadow is Dark blood red. Like the Shadow hands and such. 

 

Skakdi are a bit of a oddity thanks to the mutation they received. Weren't they peaceful prior to Spiriah's tampering?

Edited January 12, 2015 by Toa Komali

[The 1st Shadow]

I thought that was because one of the viruses was designed to make them more violent. Spirah wanted soldiers for an army, not a bunch of peaceful people that suddenly had elemental powers. 

That is correct. But I was theorizing on what divided them. Yes, they were more violent, but they separated into tribes and went to war with each other. What determined how they split?

[bonesiii]

Why would he do that anyways?) Basically, the alternative that they were colored but not elemental makes less sense.

It would be possible. Just have the virus have a randomizer between the number of options. The results would tend toward tribes of roughly equal numbers, all given both color and element. But I don't know that your idea is impossible either, and I'd obviously assumed it earlier.

 

But here's another way to test the statement that colors aren't associated with non-Matoran beings by elemental focus -- the DH list has a good selection of non-Matoran beings, and powers defined, so let's run through it real quick and see if we see some examples.

 

First obvious candidate, Amphibax, said to be aquatic. Has a bit of blue.

Darkness... questionable whether he counts. No elemental powers or clear association by species, but somebody did obviously think of the idea in the nickname, and has some black.

Eliminator -- black and purple, has a Shadow-related power.

Firedracax -- doesn't count; was a Ta-Matoran...

Vanisher -- black and purple, but no Shadow relation (not counting his job's name). Adds a caution to Eliminator, but since they're different species, this is not clear evidence against the color scheme having meaning in Eliminator's case (or others like Amphibax).

Seeker... unclear... tool has a seismic power, related to rock, and he has brown. Appears to not be an innate power, but a cultural association could be here.

Shadow Stealer -- debatable, but having white, the main color of light (and ice but that's irrelevant here), and "stealing shadows" could be a connection.

Tyrant -- red, and powers of absorbing and emitting heat.

Guardian -- unclear; red and purple, has a tool with Earth and Stone powers. Purple might connect to Earth. Red doesn't really connect to Stone though.

Silence -- this was quite possibly a coincidence (I think the color for Sonics was chosen later), but he's all grayscale, and has a sound-related power. And his color might be part of Roodaka's mutating his "appearance". The power itself is stated to be natural.

 

So, there's some that definitely look to be color-associated, that as far as I know are of non-Matoran species. Enough to fit a pattern of some species having color associations, others not. And with Eliminator we have more strong evidence akin to the Shadow Kraata, this time with an actual Shadow power.

[fishers64]

 

I thought that was because one of the viruses was designed to make them more violent. Spirah wanted soldiers for an army, not a bunch of peaceful people that suddenly had elemental powers. 

That is correct. But I was theorizing on what divided them. Yes, they were more violent, but they separated into tribes and went to war with each other. What determined how they split?

 

Probably old grudges or misunderstandings. I'm not sure that they divided out by element; why would they?

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Why would he do that anyways?) Basically, the alternative that they were colored but not elemental makes less sense.

It would be possible. Just have the virus have a randomizer between the number of options. The results would tend toward tribes of roughly equal numbers, all given both color and element. But I don't know that your idea is impossible either, and I'd obviously assumed it earlier.

 

But here's another way to test the statement that colors aren't associated with non-Matoran beings by elemental focus -- the DH list has a good selection of non-Matoran beings, and powers defined, so let's run through it real quick and see if we see some examples.

 

First obvious candidate, Amphibax, said to be aquatic. Has a bit of blue.

Darkness... questionable whether he counts. No elemental powers or clear association by species, but somebody did obviously think of the idea in the nickname, and has some black.

Eliminator -- black and purple, has a Shadow-related power.

Firedracax -- doesn't count; was a Ta-Matoran...

Vanisher -- black and purple, but no Shadow relation (not counting his job's name). Adds a caution to Eliminator, but since they're different species, this is not clear evidence against the color scheme having meaning in Eliminator's case (or others like Amphibax).

Seeker... unclear... tool has a seismic power, related to rock, and he has brown. Appears to not be an innate power, but a cultural association could be here.

Shadow Stealer -- debatable, but having white, the main color of light (and ice but that's irrelevant here), and "stealing shadows" could be a connection.

Tyrant -- red, and powers of absorbing and emitting heat.

Guardian -- unclear; red and purple, has a tool with Earth and Stone powers. Purple might connect to Earth. Red doesn't really connect to Stone though.

Silence -- this was quite possibly a coincidence (I think the color for Sonics was chosen later), but he's all grayscale, and has a sound-related power. And his color might be part of Roodaka's mutating his "appearance". The power itself is stated to be natural.

 

So, there's some that definitely look to be color-associated, that as far as I know are of non-Matoran species. Enough to fit a pattern of some species having color associations, others not. And with Eliminator we have more strong evidence akin to the Shadow Kraata, this time with an actual Shadow power.

 

I don't think the DH are a good example to use. Each one is an individual member of a different species. We haven't seen all of Airwatcher's race, just him. We haven't seen all of Darkness' race, just him. We don't know if they have powers/color schemes unique to them or if those traits are shared by the entire species.

 

Something else to consider is that many (not most, but many) of the DH were mutated or modified in some way, leading them to be made outcasts by their people. Some of their powers or colors could be a result of said changes. Plus, most of those are models built by kids to look cool, and the story roles were given later, so I'm not sure if I'd consider them to be really reliable.

 

 

 

I thought that was because one of the viruses was designed to make them more violent. Spirah wanted soldiers for an army, not a bunch of peaceful people that suddenly had elemental powers. 

That is correct. But I was theorizing on what divided them. Yes, they were more violent, but they separated into tribes and went to war with each other. What determined how they split?

 

Probably old grudges or misunderstandings. I'm not sure that they divided out by element; why would they?

 

Well, the Matoran of Metru Nui did...

[Banana Gunz]

Huh. I really like the parallels made in this theory! I doubt it's true, but it's still interesting to say the least!

[bonesiii]

I don't think the DH are a good example to use. Each one is an individual member of a different species.

Er, that's why they are a good example, as I said -- seeing one that doesn't fit the pattern doesn't evidence against another seeming to fit it, since they're different species. And they cover so many of the other species, so I'd say they definitely are.

 

We haven't seen all of Airwatcher's race, just him. We haven't seen all of Darkness' race, just him.

I never suggested otherwise, but it's unlikely the color associations for at least a few are coincidence. They're positive evidence against the idea that non-Matoran never have color-element ties.

 

Something else to consider is that many (not most, but many) of the DH were mutated or modified in some way, leading them to be made outcasts by their people.

I believe I commented on all the mutations in the examples I listed. I avoided examples in general that stated it (most of them are mutants of Matoran or relatives, like Firedracax, who I listed as an example of ones that don't count). Without evidence in the ones that are left, we can't know that they aren't natural powers either. And several are worded in ways that clearly imply they are in their natural species form.

 

Plus, most of those are models built by kids to look cool, and the story roles were given later, so I'm not sure if I'd consider them to be really reliable.

I don't see what you mean here. Their appearances and story roles are canon, and that the roles were given later (apparently) seems to help my case, not hurt it, as Greg himself would be picking the powers. His doing so in some cases because of colors is likely, as that's a Bionicle tradition.

 

Something else I didn't mention -- they're all (far as I know offhand) of species made by Mata Nui. That does mean they aren't totally relevant to Kestora, who were, but the contrast here can be helpful too (if Mata Nui's species are the ones that tend not to have color-element associations, then that could imply Kestora are likely to), and it does seem to show that "(unmutated) non-Matoran don't have these associations" appears to be false, or at least very questionable. Worth adding that normal Bohrok have the associations too. Makuta don't, exactly... but they're shapeshifters. And black is probably fairly common, and black and red (2003 set) has been used as a generic standin template in one image.

 

I think the examples we see in the DH, among others, of apparent non-association of colors and elemental themes is more meant to add to the variety of the MU, as before that, among sapient species at least, color associations were common. That doesn't require being absolute about it.

[The 1st Shadow]

My text in red.

 

 

I don't think the DH are a good example to use. Each one is an individual member of a different species.

Er, that's why they are a good example, as I said -- seeing one that doesn't fit the pattern doesn't evidence against another seeming to fit it, since they're different species. And they cover so many of the other species, so I'd say they definitely are.

 

As I said, we know only about those individuals. There has been little to suggest that those traits are shared by the entire species.

 

We haven't seen all of Airwatcher's race, just him. We haven't seen all of Darkness' race, just him.

I never suggested otherwise, but it's unlikely the color associations for at least a few are coincidence. They're positive evidence against the idea that non-Matoran never have color-element ties.

 

Something else to consider is that many (not most, but many) of the DH were mutated or modified in some way, leading them to be made outcasts by their people.

I believe I commented on all the mutations in the examples I listed. I avoided examples in general that stated it (most of them are mutants of Matoran or relatives, like Firedracax, who I listed as an example of ones that don't count). Without evidence in the ones that are left, we can't know that they aren't natural powers either. And several are worded in ways that clearly imply they are in their natural species form.

 

If that's the case, then why include the ones that aren't helpful to the theory?

 

Plus, most of those are models built by kids to look cool, and the story roles were given later, so I'm not sure if I'd consider them to be really reliable.

I don't see what you mean here. Their appearances and story roles are canon, and that the roles were given later (apparently) seems to help my case, not hurt it, as Greg himself would be picking the powers. His doing so in some cases because of colors is likely, as that's a Bionicle tradition.

 

Yes, Greg picked the powers, but I doubt that color was the ultimate deciding factor.
Not always. Axonn  (red) isn't Fire, and neither Brutaka or Ancient (blue and gold) are Psionics. Hydraxon (black and silver) isn't Iron/Magnetism/whatever, and Nocturn (blue and green) isn't Plant-Life. Takadox isn't Water, and Pridak isn't Ice or Fire. Powers based on color is a tradition? Not really. Where sets are concerned, elemental affiliation based on color is almost exclusively limited to Matoran/Toa/Turaga, with only one group of villains (Piraka) being the exception.

 

Something else I didn't mention -- they're all (far as I know offhand) of species made by Mata Nui. That does mean they aren't totally relevant to Kestora, who were, but the contrast here can be helpful too (if Mata Nui's species are the ones that tend not to have color-element associations, then that could imply Kestora are likely to), and it does seem to show that "(unmutated) non-Matoran don't have these associations" appears to be false, or at least very questionable. Worth adding that normal Bohrok have the associations too. Makuta don't, exactly... but they're shapeshifters. And black is probably fairly common, and black and red (2003 set) has been used as a generic standin template in one image.

 

Good point about MN creating all those races and the GBs making the Kestora. Might mean something, might not. Who knows?

Bohrok are transformed Av-Matoran, which doesn't make them entirely non-Matoran. They still have that species relation.
Basically, black is the only apparent constant when it comes to Shadow.

 

I think the examples we see in the DH, among others, of apparent non-association of colors and elemental themes is more meant to add to the variety of the MU, as before that, among sapient species at least, color associations were common. That doesn't require being absolute about it.

 

Huh? From the way you worded this, it looks like you're saying the same thing I've been saying: outside of Matoran, color has little to no relation to elemental affiliation.

Edited January 13, 2015 by ~T1S~

[bonesiii]

I believe I commented on all the mutations in the examples I listed. I avoided examples in general that stated it (most of them are mutants of Matoran or relatives, like Firedracax, who I listed as an example of ones that don't count). Without evidence in the ones that are left, we can't know that they aren't natural powers either. And several are worded in ways that clearly imply they are in their natural species form.

 

If that's the case, then why include the ones that aren't helpful to the theory?

What do you mean? Why wouldn't I?

 

Yes, Greg picked the powers, but I doubt that color was the ultimate deciding factor.

Not always.

T1, why are you saying things like this? I never suggested such things. I was testing your statement here:

 

I was saying that the depiction of color in a non-Matoran being has no relation to elemental powers.

Showing examples of possible correlations is evidence against this universal negative. Statements that Hasty Generalizations can't be made from this do not change that. I thought that was clear, but... hopefully this helps?

 

I'm guessing your list of examples that don't appear to have a correlation is based on the premise of this apparent misunderstanding, so hopefully you see why that doesn't change what I brought up. (And it was assumed to be common knowledge before I started. )

 

Powers based on color is a tradition? Not really. Where sets are concerned, elemental affiliation based on color is almost exclusively limited to Matoran/Toa/Turaga, with only one group of villains (Piraka) being the exception.

Okay... lotsa points here:

 

First, the interior of the giant robot is named after Matoran. You seem to be treating them like they're obscure in the MU. Surely it's much more believable that since elemental association is the case for the main species that Great Beings made, others having it (made by them or not) is very possible. Again, showing that some or even most others don't, is not at all an argument against this.

 

Second, this argument doesn't really work against the theory, since like Matoran, Kestora were made by the Great Beings. (And the Makuta were also planned by them.) But I think you get that part re: your second-to-last statement, so yarr.

 

Third, the Matoran and relatives are where the tradition is mainly seen. But prior to the Piraka, other than a few titans, we hadn't really seen a lot of other MU sapient species. Most of the other sets were robots or creatures of some sort. The DH added a ton of new species to the list.

 

And affiliation goes to more than direct elemental powers, keep in mind. And since I was talking about adding variety to counter the tradition in general, rather than just sapients, those robots and creatures are relevant too. The Vahki had some obvious choices of "personality" and some power selections based on what was seen as a "good fit" to the city regions of those elements. The red Visorak seemed to have "fiery personalities." (They also have a "burning sensation" Rhotuka power incidentally.) Many Rahi with elemental associations were depicted as colored accordingly. Others weren't. Variety.

 

Bohrok are transformed Av-Matoran, which doesn't make them entirely non-Matoran. They still have that species relation.

But their design was made by the GBs, so it's much more relevant than most examples (like the many mutants). And if Kestora are "related" in the way I suggested, this actually helps. Let's face it, Kestora as described are almost indistinguishable from Matoran; they wear masks, they have no inherent powers, and they're diminutive. They already seem related in the sense that the same basic idea was used for both. They're more like Matoran than Bohrok are! It's not a stretch to imagine their color similarity to Shadow could be intentional as the standins for Kra-Matoran.

 

Keep in mind too that the Shadow Kraata are already related to Shadow by their connection to Makuta, BTW, and Makuta and Kraata were planned by the GBs. So we have a loose connection of purple to the Makuta as beings of shadow. Their power makes them seem like the "Toa" standins... I stand by that it makes sense there could be a "Kra-Matoran" standin too, and that could be Kestora. (But this doesn't mean it's proven, or likely what they intended, just fits the facts we have.)

Edited January 13, 2015 by bonesiii

[The 1st Shadow]

 

I believe I commented on all the mutations in the examples I listed. I avoided examples in general that stated it (most of them are mutants of Matoran or relatives, like Firedracax, who I listed as an example of ones that don't count). Without evidence in the ones that are left, we can't know that they aren't natural powers either. And several are worded in ways that clearly imply they are in their natural species form.

 

If that's the case, then why include the ones that aren't helpful to the theory?

What do you mean? Why wouldn't I?

Because you said so yourself that they were "debatable," "questionable," "unclear," or "doesn't count because he's a Ta-Matoran." The others were relevant to your point, but a number of those examples were evidence to the contrary.

 

T1, why are you saying things like this? I never suggested such things. I was testing your statement here:

 

I was saying that the depiction of color in a non-Matoran being has no relation to elemental powers.

Showing examples of possible correlations is evidence against this universal negative. Statements that Hasty Generalizations can't be made from this do not change that. I thought that was clear, but... hopefully this helps?

 

I'm guessing your list of examples that don't appear to have a correlation is based on the premise of this apparent misunderstanding, so hopefully you see why that doesn't change what I brought up. (And it was assumed to be common knowledge before I started. )

 

Name one set between '01 and '08 that didn't follow that rule. The Rahkshi don't count because of the fact that there are 42 of them, and the six we saw didn't have Elemental powers. The Bohrok I explained. The Vahki were designed to carry the representative color scheme of the Metru they were assigned to. The Visorak didn't have elemental powers, nor did the Barraki, and the Makuta were all beings of Elemental Shadow. Every other canister release was a Toa. Small sets were mainly Matoran, Turaga, or some variation thereof (Rahaga). Any other set release, for the most part,  either contained Toa or Matoran on vehicles or beasts, or non-elemental titans. Sets would have been given the full blessing of the story team, while a bunch of contest winners (while still valid characters), not the forefront of the main story. In fact, many of them never made an actual appearance in-story.

 

Powers based on color is a tradition? Not really. Where sets are concerned, elemental affiliation based on color is almost exclusively limited to Matoran/Toa/Turaga, with only one group of villains (Piraka) being the exception.

Okay... lotsa points here:

 

First, the interior of the giant robot is named after Matoran. You seem to be treating them like they're obscure in the MU. Surely it's much more believable that since elemental association is the case for the main species that Great Beings made, others having it (made by them or not) is very possible. Again, showing that some or even most others don't, is not at all an argument against this.

 

No, I'm saying that the only ones that the element/color association deal applies to is the Matoran race. Others don't need to abide by the same rules. Matoran were designed to play certain roles, while the other races were intended for other things that don't necessarily require an affiliation with any elemental power.

 

Second, this argument doesn't really work against the theory, since like Matoran, Kestora were made by the Great Beings. (And the Makuta were also planned by them.) But I think you get that part re: your second-to-last statement, so yarr.

 

Third, the Matoran and relatives are where the tradition is mainly seen. But prior to the Piraka, other than a few titans, we hadn't really seen a lot of other MU sapient species. Most of the other sets were robots or creatures of some sort. The DH added a ton of new species to the list.

 

Most of which never actually appeared in the story...

 

And affiliation goes to more than direct elemental powers, keep in mind. And since I was talking about adding variety to counter the tradition in general, rather than just sapients, those robots and creatures are relevant too. The Vahki had some obvious choices of "personality" and some power selections based on what was seen as a "good fit" to the city regions of those elements. The red Visorak seemed to have "fiery personalities." (They also have a "burning sensation" Rhotuka power incidentally.) Many Rahi with elemental associations were depicted as colored accordingly. Others weren't. Variety.

 

Fair point on the Rahi thing. But that would more likely be because the Makuta designed them to be affiliated with those elements, and so colored them accordingly.

 

 

What I'm asking is, without writing a 2-page essay on the topic, what is your take on color/elemental correlation?

 

I see that it does exist within the parameters of the Matoran race, but there are so many non-Matoran characters that represent the idea that the Matoran are the only ones designed to be this way. (/heavily simplified)

 

How would you put it? Just curious.

Edited January 13, 2015 by ~T1S~

[bonesiii]

Because you said so yourself that they were "debatable," "questionable," "unclear," or "doesn't count because he's a Ta-Matoran." The others were relevant to your point, but a number of those examples were evidence to the contrary.

To the contrary of what? The idea there's some species possibly with associations, and many without, is consistent with that list. But an objective test should state apparent contrary evidence to be fair anyways.

 

Name one set between '01 and '08 that didn't follow that rule.

I'm not saying there have to be any. We don't have to have even one example of evidence for a correlation in other species to see why the Kestora's similarity and the idea of purple and black being connected (however loosely, but connected) to Shadow makes the theory possible. Other examples just help show that the universal negative is especially unreliable. And I haven't seen you answer the big question -- did Greg say what you said? Unless he did, we can't be confident of it, no matter how many examples there are of other species not having the associations, due to the Black Swan principle.

 

Also, this looks to be constraining the examples we're allowed to consider, to rule out exceptions we do know about and that would logically be relevant. This would rule out all those DH, for example, apparently, because they're MOCs, not sets. And would a purple Kraata piece count as a "set"? Onepu is a set showing purple and black associated with darkness as an idea -- dark caves, night vision for Whenua, preferring the dark for all the 2001 Earth characters -- but would you rule this out because he's a Matoran set? And the purple and black of Gravity being a loose idea connection isn't seen in any set, just in the story factoids.

 

The Visorak didn't have elemental powers

Rhotuka power of burning sensation certainly seems like an association, much more than a normal Matoran would have.

 

I'm not going to go through every example you listed; it's getting too off-topic and I've already shown why listing any number of examples of non-correlation doesn't prove it never happens for non-Matoran species (and I took it as a given we all know there were those examples anyways). It seems like you still aren't getting that I'm showing there's some of both, versus your universal negative, so the version of the topic theory that I mentioned is fully possible. You even seemed to get that earlier, so what gives? You still seem to be acting as if I was arguing for some kind of universal positive, which I never suggested and have already clarified I wasn't saying. *is confuzzled*

 

No, I'm saying that the only ones that the element/color association deal applies to is the Matoran race. Others don't need to abide by the same rules.

Again, who said they did? This is what I mean about apparently making a strawman that I was suggesting a universal positive. The second sentence here is true (it's consistent with a mixture among other species, which makes sense as it's multiple species, not just one like Matoran and their relatives), but the first doesn't follow from it (it's still phrased as a universal negative).

 

And in the one universal color for all powers of any of the beings related to Makuta, we have the color purple (everybody else is shapeshifters so color is irrelevant or has a color associated with their power). I think this is very consistent with my version of the idea. Makuta aren't Matoran either. So we have two major GB-made/planned species other than Matoran who have purple as a major color in relation to them. Coincidence? In real life, probably, but as a theory of what the GBs could plausibly have had in mind based on the evidence we have (regardless of authorial intent), it makes sense to suggest it may be something more.

 

And one of those species has a focus on Shadow. And Toa-like powers, but no Matoran equiv. So the connection for the Toa-like side with Makuta is there. What about the Matoran equiv? Other than Kra-Matoran made by draining inner light, of course. Could be the Kestora. They fit the pattern, and "coincidentally" have the right color scheme to work for it. Also fitting a common theme in other stories, which is relevant, especially since the Shadow Kraata already use that theme blatantly.

 

I'm just saying, this does make sense to me, as unlikely as it is that anybody at LEGO planned it.

 

Most of which never actually appeared in the story...

Relevance?

 

Fair point on the Rahi thing. But that would more likely be because the Makuta designed them to be affiliated with those elements, and so colored them accordingly.

And the GBs could do the same thing with Kestora. Point is, variety in correlation versus not correlation, rather than all one or the other, is a thing with Rahi. It could be a thing among sapient species, rather than Matoran being the only ones with a correlation.

Edited January 13, 2015 by bonesiii

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Because you said so yourself that they were "debatable," "questionable," "unclear," or "doesn't count because he's a Ta-Matoran." The others were relevant to your point, but a number of those examples were evidence to the contrary.

To the contrary of what? The idea there's some species possibly with associations, and many without, is consistent with that list. But an objective test should state apparent contrary evidence to be fair anyways.

 

Name one set between '01 and '08 that didn't follow that rule.

I'm not saying there have to be any. We don't have to have even one example of evidence for a correlation in other species to see why the Kestora's similarity and the idea of purple and black being connected (however loosely, but connected) to Shadow makes the theory possible. Other examples just help show that the universal negative is especially unreliable. And I haven't seen you answer the big question -- did Greg say what you said? Unless he did, we can't be confident of it, no matter how many examples there are of other species not having the associations, due to the Black Swan principle.

 

No, but he never said anything contrary to it, either.

 

Also, this looks to be constraining the examples we're allowed to consider, to rule out exceptions we do know about and that would logically be relevant. This would rule out all those DH, for example, apparently, because they're MOCs, not sets. And would a purple Kraata piece count as a "set"? Onepu is a set showing purple and black associated with darkness as an idea -- dark caves, night vision for Whenua, preferring the dark for all the 2001 Earth characters -- but would you rule this out because he's a Matoran set? And the purple and black of Gravity being a loose idea connection isn't seen in any set, just in the story factoids.

 

The Visorak didn't have elemental powers

Rhotuka power of burning sensation certainly seems like an association, much more than a normal Matoran would have.

 

Besides that one example. Even though I guess you could say that the Suukorak have an electricity-based power, but it's hardly elemental. It's like calling a tazer or a lighter "elemental weapons."

 

I'm not going to go through every example you listed; it's getting too off-topic and I've already shown why listing any number of examples of non-correlation doesn't prove it never happens for non-Matoran species (and I took it as a given we all know there were those examples anyways). It seems like you still aren't getting that I'm showing there's some of both, versus your universal negative, so the version of the topic theory that I mentioned is fully possible. You even seemed to get that earlier, so what gives? You still seem to be acting as if I was arguing for some kind of universal positive, which I never suggested and have already clarified I wasn't saying. *is confuzzled*

 

Yes, I do understand the point you made, but I don't understand what it is pointing TO. You've not been very clear on that. 

 

No, I'm saying that the only ones that the element/color association deal applies to is the Matoran race. Others don't need to abide by the same rules.

Again, who said they did? This is what I mean about apparently making a strawman that I was suggesting a universal positive. The second sentence here is true (it's consistent with a mixture among other species, which makes sense as it's multiple species, not just one like Matoran and their relatives), but the first doesn't follow from it (it's still phrased as a universal negative).

 

And in the one universal color for all powers of any of the beings related to Makuta, we have the color purple (everybody else is shapeshifters so color is irrelevant or has a color associated with their power). I think this is very consistent with my version of the idea. Makuta aren't Matoran either. So we have two major GB-made/planned species other than Matoran who have purple as a major color in relation to them. Coincidence? In real life, probably, but as a theory of what the GBs could plausibly have had in mind based on the evidence we have (regardless of authorial intent), it makes sense to suggest it may be something more.

 

And one of those species has a focus on Shadow. And Toa-like powers, but no Matoran equiv. So the connection for the Toa-like side with Makuta is there. What about the Matoran equiv? Other than Kra-Matoran made by draining inner light, of course. Could be the Kestora. They fit the pattern, and "coincidentally" have the right color scheme to work for it. Also fitting a common theme in other stories, which is relevant, especially since the Shadow Kraata already use that theme blatantly.

 

I'm just saying, this does make sense to me, as unlikely as it is that anybody at LEGO planned it.

 

I'm not saying that your theory is incorrect. Just that there are so few examples of it, a handful of which were a bit sketchy, as I pointed out.

 

Most of which never actually appeared in the story...

Relevance?

 

It gives us only one example to go on, so we can hardly say that all members of a race have the same traits. For example, I'm a decent singer. By the logic you're suggesting, we can assume that all humans are decent singers. This is not the case. 

 

Fair point on the Rahi thing. But that would more likely be because the Makuta designed them to be affiliated with those elements, and so colored them accordingly.

And the GBs could do the same thing with Kestora. Point is, variety in correlation versus not correlation, rather than all one or the other, is a thing with Rahi. It could be a thing among sapient species, rather than Matoran being the only ones with a correlation.

 

Point taken.

 

 

Just to simplify things, in as few sentences as possible, could you explain to me what your official point on this is? I may be reading some of it wrong, but you offer many explanations of a point you never seem to get to. I do that myself sometimes--get so into something that I forget where all my points were supposed to meet. If it's one thing I've learned from my writing courses, it's that, when making an argument, you need to have a clear, concise topic sentence in your opening paragraph. You don't do this very often, if I may point that out. So, to help give me some perspective, could you offer one simple explanation, in one brief paragraph, through which to look at what you've had to say thus far? That would be extremely helpful.

[bonesiii]

T, all I can say is read what I've already written as I've made it as clear as I know how to, more than once. I summarized my point in my first post and I don't see the need to go over again, as it hardly matters. It looks to me like it's not about me not saying something, but for some reason it not sinking in for you, or you not reading/catching it. Go back, and read slowly. To this specifically:

By the logic you're suggesting, we can assume that all humans are decent singers. This is not the case.

You're apparently confusing evidence that there may be a correlation with proof of one (or justification of a universal assumption). I was not suggesting that; that idea is coming from your own head somehow. (And I already pointed out to you at least twice that I was saying no such thing... Not to mention, the fallacy you're alleging here, Hasty Generalization, is precisely the problem with your universal negative, based in incomplete examples! It's you who is suggesting such a thing... apparently, and as it was worded...)

Edited January 13, 2015 by bonesiii

[The 1st Shadow]

If you had, I wouldn't have asked you to clarify. But, just for the heck of it, I'll check it once again to see if I missed something.

 

However, it's possible the concept was part of the inspiration for them. We've discussed in past topics how having a small number of highly powerful Shadow beings, the Makuta, seems to have been used as the replacement for the concept of Shadow Matoran/Toa/Turaga.

 

It may be that the Great Beings saw the Makuta as the Toa replacement, and Kestora as the Matoran replacement.

 

If so, we wouldn't expect to see them calling the Kestora Kra-Matoran, but there could still be a loose connection. 

 

 

I see three suggestions, none of which reflect your specific stance on it.

 

Unless they're all the same point spread out for easy reading. If that's the case, let's see if I've got this.

 

Kestora are modeled after what would have been the Shadow Matoran, and since the GBs did not plan on including Shadow Toa, there was no need to create actual Matoran for that element. So, they compiled their resources into building a restoration team, but they kept a hypothetical color scheme in place.

 

Correct?

[bonesiii]

I don't know what you're asking about when you say a 'stance', though. I was just reacting to the suggestion in the OP and giving some possible evidence for a version of it, since its being literally true is clearly false, but it did make sense with those suggestions. "Stance" would imply, generally, that I think it is the case canonically or should be. All I was saying is that's one version that would seem to fit the facts.

 

And I have a rule to generally not agree to others' attempts to re-word my meanings, as I don't know for sure that you don't mean something significantly different by it. It's better to understand my meanings from what I've already said, and I've frankly said way more already than the subject really warrants lol.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

And I have a rule to generally not agree to others' attempts to re-word my meanings, as I don't know for sure that you don't mean something significantly different by it. It's better to understand my meanings from what I've already said, and I've frankly said way more already than the subject really warrants lol.

I rewrote your words, just to see if I'm clear on what you meant. Because you "said more than the subject really warrants," I wanted to try to understand why. You had a point in mind, or else you wouldn't have done so. 

[bonesiii]

I said so much because I kept seeing points that, while not on an important subject, appeared to be illogical, and I just don't like letting those stand. They give teaching opportunities about good thinking versus unreliable thinking.

 

And I'm not sure if you're clear on it -- I'm not clear on what your summary means. The first clause looks clear enough, but just says what my first post already said, with synonyms. The rest of that sentence makes some logical connections I wasn't arguing about Toa, though that's plausible enough, I guess. And I don't understand the second sentence. Allicansayis... I chose the clearest wordings I know in how I said it earlier.

 

Edit: I thought of another approach -- the timeline of how the Kestora were introduced.

 

Let's take it as a given, hypothetically, for now, that LEGO intended them to be inspired-by standins for the concept of Kra-Matoran as Makuta plus <raata/Rahkshi seem to be standins for Kra-Toa. I don't think it was intentional, but lets ask, if it had been, how would they have to do it?

 

The key here is that when the story first encountered them, Takanuva thought they were good guys, in trouble from a monster, in the City of Silver Dimension. That story's concept was a reversal based on assumptions of first impression (some irony there heh). The monster turned out to be good and the Kestora the enemies.

 

So, it would not have made sense to use standard Bionicle colors for Shadow if Shadow was intentional in some sense (even if just symbolically). It would have been too obvious. Purple and black would remind of Onu-Matoran to many new fans, and just being "not red and black" would not make people immediately think of Shadow. Yet, the association was there, obscurely, and in this situation that actually would be a good thing that it's obscure. It would help make the twist make more sense.

 

And although I've been speaking hypothetically, it's interesting that this does fit the theme of the art for the story; the City-Building creatures (the "monsters") are making a shining city that the art showed as practically white with its glow (canonically that may be just reflection off the silver, but still). But the outer regions where Kestora apparently dwell were depicted as dark, and whether any sun or anything like that existed in that pocket dimension was unclear; I get the sense they were perpetually dark. So, a Shadow association actually makes sense thematically with that story!

 

(Huh. I'm even starting to wonder now if it might be somewhat intentional. Or at least, picking more obscure Shadow-associated colors because of that theme, rather than with the intent of their standing in for Kra-Matoran, may be intentional, which would make the standin theory work as an addition. )

 

Food for thought.

Edited January 13, 2015 by bonesiii