Theory: G2 a Distant Past Version of G1

[Cressona]

What led me to start thinking this: much has been made of the “mythical” island of Okoto— but myths don’t take place in the far future, they take place in the far past; historical events have ascended through retelling over generations to the status of legends; we even have the same narrator through all the stories so far (without even different voice actors to give the impression of a currently occurring story) as if he is telling us a legend or myth of this sort. 

 

Are the 2015 toa the same heroes we know and love? Perhaps the Great Beings, familiar with the legend of Okoto and the events of the Gen II storyline, were inspired to create the Toa Mata as some of the GSR’s greatest heroes.  Thus the conflict between the Toa and the Skull creatures we're experiencing now is an ancient legend of Spherus Magna that the Great Beings incorporate, in the form of the Toa Mata, into their creation.

 

The appearance of the Vahi points to the importance of time to the story, but why does it have to be in the future of the Bionicle universe?  It makes more sense to me that what we’re witnessing here in 2015 is literally a legend of Bionicle, an ancient story passed down through generations that will echo through the ages as it impacts and influences those that grow up with it.

 

Does this mean the Protectors/villagers are Agori? Is Okoto located somewhere on Spherus Magna from the distant past?  We may not get a direct answer to all these questions, as Lego may not want to make explicit links between Gen I and Gen II.  I am confident that the Gen II storyline will be something that can be enjoyed entirely on its own, and will probably have no direct connection to Gen I (I wouldn’t go so far as to speculate time-traveling Gen I characters visiting Okoto, for instance), but I wouldn’t be surprised if this version of events is made known in some subtle way to fans to tie the two stories together.

 

Thoughts? Any evidence for or against this idea I may have missed?

[J46 Nui]

Having the Great Beings base aspects of the Matoran Universe on parts of their culture and folklore is an interesting idea. I personally think that Gen 1 and Gen 2 take place in alternate universes, but this is interesting.

 

One problem with the theory as you have presented it: if the Protectors are Agori, then why don't Agori use Masks of Power? I think it would be better to assume that Protectors are a different species all-together (I think the Great Beings explored several different worlds, so this is not out of the realm of possibility), or may be early versions of the Great Beings themselves.

[MaksDudekVA]

The Toa Mata weren't created by the Great Beings though, they were built by Artahka.

[J46 Nui]

The Toa Mata weren't created by the Great Beings though, they were built by Artahka.

To be fair, they could have been destined to be created by some destiny that the Great Beings programmed into Mata Nui.

[Arzaki]

I'm pretty sure someone said that both Agori and the Protectors biologically reproduce, so that could also provide for this theory.

[northmarch]

Yes. I've been thinking about this too. One thing, the Okoto villagers being the evolutionary ancestors of the Great Beings themselves I think works better then Agori. Agori don't wear kanohi, have 1too few fingers. And weren't the GBs responsible for the mechanical augmentation of the Agori?

 

It will probably never be canonised but I think this works way better than the future setting theory.

From what I've read the 2015 Toa are not even the same kind of 'Toa' with whome we are familiar, let alone the same individuals. And we know the GBs made a concious decision to replace the prevalence of jungle with air in the MU. So that's one explanation for Lewa's element change.

 

EDIT:

@ Sir Jalokim: The Toa Mata were created some time befor Mata Nui was launched so the GBs could easily have had a hand in their design and likely did. They were after all intended a fail safe. Much of the Codrex we saw was designed to house/aid them.

Edited January 22, 2015 by northmarch

[fishers64]

It seems that there are two theories here: 

 

1) that Okoto was an island in the distant past of the MU;

 

2) that Okoto is a legend (i.e. a story) handed down from generation to generation inside the MU to explain why Toa Mata are such revered heroes. 

 

It seems that these two thoughts got mixed up in the first post. While they aren't mutually exclusive, they also don't invalidate each other - 1 can be true without 2 being true, 2 can be true without 1 being true, both can be true, or neither can be true.

 

For 1, I think is very unlikely, because we have no evidence for the island actually existing in present time. What happened to it? Did it explode? If the island did exist in present time AND it was a common myth, wouldn't Matoran go there just to hear the story from "the horse's mouth" as it were. 

 

The same would go for SM - the island could have been destroyed in the Shattering, I guess. But wouldn't the GBs have record of it somewhere? Would the SM inhabitants remember it? (They didn't seem to remember a huge giant robot that left, so it's possible. )

 

The second theory seems more plausible - it's just a story that the GBs programmed in. However, there is a significant hole - the villain is named "Makuta". Since the Makuta weren't designed to be evil, the GBs would not encourage Matoran to view the Makuta that way. Plus Matoran weren't designed to be sapient and have storytelling faculties in the first place.

 

So possibly this story developed over time as a result of storytellers changing details over time. Maybe the Matoran were programmed to view these particular Toa as heroes for the GBs' own reasons, and the Matoran came up with this story to justify it. It's possible. 

[bonesiii]

 

 

What led me to start thinking this: much has been made of the “mythical” island of Okoto— but myths don’t take place in the far future, they take place in the far past

Bionicle G1 also spoke of its present events as if they took place a long time ago. I wouldn't take that as implying anything other than a hypothetical far-future narrator, in both universes, as a stylistic thing. It also seemed to be used interchangeably with "mystical", if bad memory serves, so probably is just meant to make it have more of a fantasy feel, without any comment on time.

 

Perhaps the Great Beings, familiar with the legend of Okoto and the events of the Gen II storyline, were inspired to create the Toa Mata as some of the GSR’s greatest heroes.

Problems:

-The Agori don't normally wear masks, yet all the villagers shown do. Who is telling this version of the myth? While it's possible there could be stories of a past culture that all wore masks (I won't worry about the clonism for this post as that could be artistic license anyways), since the concept of masks probably existed on SM, it fits far, far better with a reimagining.

-Powered masks were treated as an invention of the Great Beings, as they didn't exist in the Core War, for example. This would change it to be borrowed from an old story. Possible, and they must have been inspired by something to connect mask with power, conceptually, but again I must wonder, is this the myth they would learn from Agori culture, or a later version? Because the powered masks seem to work just like the ones the Great Beings invented, and are taken for granted, just like a reimagining.

-The Vahi design has been featured, but was invented by Vakama many millenia later, not the Great Beings. Did Vakama get magical visions about the shape of the imaginary Vahi in ancient Agori legends, lol? Or is this a REALLY late version of the myth in the far future of the combined cultures on reformed Spherus Magna? Confusing! Again, fits reimagining waaaay better.

-The Mask of Creation is here. Similar to above, just a lot earlier and not as hard to explain.

-Why would they name their Rahi creating scientists after a major villain of history (or at least seen as a villain by the time the myth is told)? True, we don't yet know the extent of his villainy in G2, but you'd think, so far, they'd be more likely to name the species after Ekimu. Even a best-case scenario for G2 Makuta so far is tragic incompetant.

-Would the Order have to know this, to manipulate events on Mata Nui to imitate the Okoto myth, with details like the Golden Masks? Seems very unlikely.

 

The appearance of the Vahi points to the importance of time to the story, but why does it have to be in the future of the Bionicle Gen 1] universe?

It doesn't, because it doesn't have to be in the G1 universe at all. Time can be important simply because the Vahi was important to Gen 1, and this is a reimagining, so it makes sense to incorporate the Vahi as a major plot element. That's all it needs to imply.

 

It makes more sense to me that what we’re witnessing here in 2015 is literally a legend of Bionicle, an ancient story passed down through generations that will echo through the ages as it impacts and influences those that grow up with it.

Sorry, but of the theories so far that try to force G2 into the G1 universe, distant past seems about the least likely. Some far future thing is the best bet, methinks. But still fails IMO.

And if you were going to have it be in the distant past, I think you'd need a theory more like the Vahi getting smashed and time traveling happening so Toa and whonot end up in the past, but getting sort of healed by the Temple of Time's construction or some such thing. But that wouldn't be likely either. The fact that it fits the pattern of a reimagining means that is the only really plausible theory. (And given everything else we've been told, virtual fact.)

[Archon~]

This... Actually makes sense. Noted and headcanoned.

[aldero]

I don't think that this is the case. Although this is some very interesting evidence, I'm still confident that G2 isn't in the same universe as G1. There would be so much time in between the two timelines, and it would become a mess of legends piled upon legends. 

 

Okoto is said to be a tale of legend, but this doesn't really count as good evidence in my books. In G1, there was all this talk about 'the time before time' and legends and such. This is just the style in which Bionicle is presented, and isn't hard evidence.

[Regitnui]

I personally think Time has something to do with Gen2 on its own, rather than linking it to Gen1

[derhenson]

Isn't it canon that the Great Beings based the Toa on the Glatorian? Who don't wear masks?

 

Compared to the Toa Mata storyline, the G2 storyline seems to be more like a future retelling, in that the "master" characters retained their names, "Makuta" has simply devolved into a name synonymous with corruption, and the story seems very simplified (even more campfire story-like than 2001). Ekimu and Makuta, and in fact the whole reboot story, could be seen as some sort of allegory to the G1 universe. Also, I doubt that, if this was an Agori legend that the Great Beings were inspired by, they would name the Makuta after a being who became corrupt, considering that they weren't expecting them to go bad like they did.

[Cressona]

It seems that there are two theories here: 

 

1) that Okoto was an island in the distant past of the MU;

 

2) that Okoto is a legend (i.e. a story) handed down from generation to generation inside the MU to explain why Toa Mata are such revered heroes.

I should be clear-- I'm suggesting that Okoto has nothing to do with the MU at all. Matoran would have never heard of this legend. The Toa Mata are revered heroes because of their actual heroic actions within the Matoran Universe-- I'm suggesting that the GBs were originally inspired to name/design these particular Toa after legendary heroes from their own culture or one they were familiar with.

 

The same would go for SM - the island could have been destroyed in the Shattering, I guess. But wouldn't the GBs have record of it somewhere? Would the SM inhabitants remember it? (They didn't seem to remember a huge giant robot that left, so it's possible. )

Do humans on Earth remember the location of Atlantis?

 

Okoto is a "mythical" island-- if we are to make anything of this at all, we shouldn't look for evidence of this mythical island actually existing, as if there was a historical Okoto somewhere in SM's distant past, it probably faded into legend and myth long before the GBs heard of it.

 

 

-The Agori don't normally wear masks, yet all the villagers shown do. Who is telling this version of the myth? While it's possible there could be stories of a past culture that all wore masks (I won't worry about the clonism for this post as that could be artistic license anyways), since the concept of masks probably existed on SM, it fits far, far better with a reimagining.

 

-Powered masks were treated as an invention of the Great Beings, as they didn't exist in the Core War, for example. This would change it to be borrowed from an old story. Possible, and they must have been inspired by something to connect mask with power, conceptually, but again I must wonder, is this the myth they would learn from Agori culture, or a later version? Because the powered masks seem to work just like the ones the Great Beings invented, and are taken for granted, just like a reimagining.

I mean, technically yes everything is better as a general "reimagining" than actually being connected at all, but why can't it be both? I think it's very obvious that Gen2 is a "reimagining" of the original Bionicle storyline, and there's certainly lots of aspects of it that are paying homage, or just re-inventing, various aspects of the 2001 story.

 

But do you really think no one had ever heard of powered masks on Spherus Magna until the GBs built them for the Core War? Maybe they borrowed from particular legends about elemental masks, maybe the idea of masks with powers was a common cultural trope on Spherus Magna. The presence of masks in the legend doesn't invalidate the GBs development and use of similar masks however many generations later.

 

-The Vahi design has been featured, but was invented by Vakama many millenia later, not the Great Beings. Did Vakama get magical visions about the shape of the imaginary Vahi in ancient Agori legends, lol? Or is this a REALLY late version of the myth in the far future of the combined cultures on reformed Spherus Magna? Confusing! Again, fits reimagining waaaay better.

I should be clearer-- when I throw out the Vahi as evidence, I mean it's a symbol that some time-related stuff is going on in Gen2 (because Mask of Time) and that this time-related stuff might be connected in some way to Gen1 (because the Vahi is from Gen1). I'm not suggesting the Vahi actually originally existed on Okoto and Vakama made the same one, that would be absurd.

 

-The Mask of Creation is here. Similar to above, just a lot earlier and not as hard to explain.

If it's even the same Mask of Creation, hmm? Both Artakha and Ekimu have good reasons for having a mask with the power of "Creation", independent of each other, and this is the kind of thing that works waaaay better as a reimagining-- Ekimu is inspired by Artakha to an extent, I'm sure (by the folks at Lego who came up with the 2015 story, not the GBs), and we don't need to speculate on connections between a Mask of Creation that seems to have a central role in Gen2 and a never-actually-seen mask from Gen1 that had minor storyline importance at best.

 

-Why would they name their Rahi creating scientists after a major villain of history (or at least seen as a villain by the time the myth is told)? True, we don't yet know the extent of his villainy in G2, but you'd think, so far, they'd be more likely to name the species after Ekimu. Even a best-case scenario for G2 Makuta so far is tragic incompetant.

Ah, who knows? Is Makuta a villain? Is he even a tragic incompetent? The view from January says yes, but what's the myth that the GBs are actually familiar with? I think if Makuta starts in on a redemption arc at some point in Gen2, this whole theory becomes a good deal more likely. You're right, though, if Makuta stays a villain or otherwise doesn't wind up being the type of character you can imagine naming Rahi scientists after, it's all a bit less likely.

 

-Would the Order have to know this, to manipulate events on Mata Nui to imitate the Okoto myth, with details like the Golden Masks? Seems very unlikely.

If the Toa Mata were directly inspired by the heroes of the Myth of Okoto, the GBs might very well have programmed some Golden Mask subroutines into the GSR surrounding them and their missions, as an intentional nod to the old legend; independent of that, I don't think it's all that novel an idea, for a culture to whom powered masks are important, to make extra powerful Golden ones for big-shot heroes. This could be, in-story, a case of relatively independent invention and, more obviously, the story team using bits of the classic 2001 story in their reimagining.

 

 

And if you were going to have it be in the distant past, I think you'd need a theory more like the Vahi getting smashed and time traveling happening so Toa and whonot end up in the past, but getting sort of healed by the Temple of Time's construction or some such thing. But that wouldn't be likely either. The fact that it fits the pattern of a reimagining means that is the only really plausible theory. (And given everything else we've been told, virtual fact.)

I doubt Occam's Razor actually applies to Bionicle in any way, but with faith in the story team that they're going for something simple, and with my belief that, if there are connections between Gen1 and Gen2 Lego will acknowledge them only subtly and not by making a big deal out of it and thus confusing new fans less-familiar with Gen1 story material, I feel your suggestion is way too complex and way too reliant on knowledge of Gen1 details to work for Lego.

 

You do like your idea that it's just a reimagining, don't you?  I don't blame you, because I 100% agree, and I think the first explanation for any similarity between Gen1 and Gen2 (and especially between 2015 and 2001) is that, yes, we are reimagining the classic story (and it is awesome).  But is that all we're doing?  I've seen a few folks floating around the internet with various levels of substantiation to their suggestions that Gen2 is somewhat less than a complete "hard" reboot of Gen1.  And I think placing Gen2 in the distant, distant past of Gen1 as a legend that inspired the actual events of the classic story is a cool way to connect the two that doesn't require too much extra storyline effort put into it (so we can focus on our new Gen2 story and not all the old stuff), and won't need too much explanation (well, until bonesiii replies to one of your posts, that is   ).

[Mailli]

Taking the myth idea to the extreme, maybe the events on Okoto were just a fairy tale for the GBs, and influenced Arthaka's design of the Toa Mata.

 

Going waaay too far now, but if we apply the (unpopular) theory that the GBs are humans, LEGO's gen 2 characters are going to influence some giant robot we build in the future!!!

 

Of course, it could work the other way round if we find out  Okoto was made by some GB equivalent...

[bonesiii]

Isn't it canon that the Great Beings based the Toa on the Glatorian? Who don't wear masks?

I think so. It's definitely canon that they based the Matoran on Agori, but if the myth was about Agori and Glatorian with masks of elemental power rather than innate Toa powers, this would actually fit (that part).

 

One problem (at least I think it is; I see the topic starter has replied but I'm replying as I read) is that the characters are called Toa, and when Mata Nui referred to Toa, Ackar had to ask him what that was. So, this can't be a well-known tale among all Glatorian, at least, and at least not as we're being told it.

 

I should be clear-- I'm suggesting that Okoto has nothing to do with the MU at all. Matoran would have never heard of this legend. The Toa Mata are revered heroes because of their actual heroic actions within the Matoran Universe-- I'm suggesting that the GBs were originally inspired to name/design these particular Toa after legendary heroes from their own culture or one they were familiar with.

Just keep in mind we were told their names are inspired after the words for those elements (or prefixes anyways). This would have to push that way back into history, and seriously stretches credulity there (in addition to the other serious stretches and apparent contradictions). And I don't know if we were told if the Great Beings were the ones that picked the names or Artakha or the Order.

 

I mean, technically yes everything is better as a general "reimagining" than actually being connected at all, but why can't it be both?

See, I keep seeing questions like this with these connection theories. To me, they imply that these aren't natural theories coming out of the evidence, but a desire to see a link and looking for evidence to prop up the idea. You're not saying "the evidence clearly implies it's both", you're asking why it can't be both, meaning you want it to be.

 

We don't have absolutely definitive proof it isn't, but if the new story team doesn't want it to be, then it can't be both. Pretty simple. Obviously you can headcanon away all the problems if you want -- you could make it into anything you want then, but as far as canon goes, no.

 

But do you really think no one had ever heard of powered masks on Spherus Magna until the GBs built them for the Core War?

They didn't make them for the Core War, as I pointed out. If somebody had thought of them at the time, maybe they would have, instead of the elementally charged weapons they gave the Glatorian instead.

 

So I do think nobody had likely heard of powered masks until the Great Beings thought of it after the discovery of protodermis. The idea seems to have come from the idea to have a "coma switch" for their main AI units (like a kill switch but not directly fatal), in case a Matoran glitched, and used masks for that. Now with the idea of masks as important established, making them have power for Toa and some other beings would be a logical connection to make at that time. Then they could get started with making the Ignika, etc.

 

Notice the Baterra didn't have masks of power either. The things the GBs made before that point didn't, and after that point, did or had something similar like Krana. I doubt that's a coincidence.

 

Ah, who knows? Is Makuta a villain? Is he even a tragic incompetent? The view from January says yes, but what's the myth that the GBs are actually familiar with? I think if Makuta starts in on a redemption arc at some point in Gen2, this whole theory becomes a good deal more likely. You're right, though, if Makuta stays a villain or otherwise doesn't wind up being the type of character you can imagine naming Rahi scientists after, it's all a bit less likely.

Agreed. The thing is, the story needs a main antagonist, and Makuta has clearly been set up for that role, as we would expect for a reimagining, and you have agreed it's clear they intend it as one. I think it would likely be too much to accept turning Makuta into something like Brutaka.

 

If the Toa Mata were directly inspired by the heroes of the Myth of Okoto, the GBs might very well have programmed some Golden Mask subroutines into the GSR surrounding them and their missions, as an intentional nod to the old legend

I wasn't just talking about the golden masks (hence the "etc.") -- it's the whole pattern; heroes fall from the sky, are told by village leaders to collect masks, fighting creatures infesting the island likely connected somehow to Makuta's will, collect the Golden Masks, and then go on to try to defeat the creatures. The GBs didn't know Matoran would ever be on the camouflage island, so I don't think we can invoke them here; hence my mention of the Order. You said you don't think the GBs told anyone in the MU, right? I think this almost completely defeats the theory, sorry, unless you're okay with one massive coincidence.

 

I doubt Occam's Razor actually applies to Bionicle in any way, but with faith in the story team that they're going for something simple

Well that could start a complicated debate; suffice to say, theories are to have evidence and Ockham's Razor is important for sorting out speculation from theories. Doesn't mean a speculative idea couldn't be what they do; that would even be a better way to have a twist, right? But theories are supposed to go from evidence here, regardless of what they actually will end up doing. Otherwise all we could really say is one big "maybe".

 

As for going simple, I agree, and that's why it simply being a reimagining is much more likely.

 

My point in that part was that that was what I imagined when I saw your title, and seems to fit the evidence better, and would make all the contradictions mentioned above irrelevant. It would be more complicated in some ways yes, but probably also more fun. But as we can already imagine it now, I think it's probably unlikely just because it wouldn't be surprising. But yours doesn't really seem interesting on its own for a connection. If it was done, I doubt we'd go "oh that's really fun" -- it would be more like "okay... so that was all just a myth... all just to force a connection between the two universe? Sad face!"

[Arzaki]

If the Protectors and Masters biologically reproduce, that could mean something. Suppose that evolution is a thing that happens in the BIonicle universe, and if Okoto happened looooooooong before Metru Nui stuff, that means it's totally possible that Masters evolved to be able to control elements without a mask, which would decrease the usefulness of elemental masks. After all, both Ekimu and Makuta are dead/incapacitated, so there's no new masks being made. If, perhaps, elemental masks eventually lose their power, the Protectors would want to make new masks, right? So, suppose they discover a new way to make masks, but they don't grant elemental powers. Instead they grant abilties like strength, invisibility, shielding, the mask powers we're familiar with. The problem with that, though, is that Gen 1 masks were made from Kanoka, which were made from protodermis, if memory serves. Of course, everything on Okoto could be protodermis, so it's not completely out of the question. The protectors also clearly know how to make projectile weapons, and the studs they fire are like small disks. If could have occured to them to make bigger disks, and make bigger launchers to fire them, thus created the Kanoka. I'm not sure, but I think the powers of Kanoka are random when made. If this is the case, the Protectors would have many different Kanoka powers. Maybe some of them wondered, "what would happen if we put these on our faces?" So then they shaped the disks in such a way that they would fit on their heads, and the power was retained. If they combined different power Kanoka, they would get a new mask, thus the Kanohi are born.

 

Maybe, at some point in their evolution, the Protectors and Masters went down two different evolution paths. One path allowed them to biologically reproduce still, but they lost the ability to use masks. The other path caused them to lose their ability to reproduce, but would live near-forever and could use these masks. The first path led to Glatorian and Agori, while the second led to Toa and Matoran. But, I can hear you asking, "but didn't the Great Beings create the Matoran and Toa?" Well, perhaps the GB took interest in the Matoran and Toa, but knew they would die out. So, to create new Matoran and Toa, they created bio-mechanical beings modeled after both the old Matoran/Toa and the still current Agori/Glatorian. The new Matoran and Toa were more durable, but still lived near-forever and could use masks. Maybe that's how Gen 2 connects to Gen 1.

 

My theory could probably be easily disproved by a single Greg quote, but I'm posting it anyway.

Edited January 24, 2015 by bonesiii
Please keep jokes appropriate. -bones

[Munty]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is chronologically impossible right? The first Toa releases we've got are the Toa Mata (if G1 and G2 are connected in any way at all that is [which they're not]) and the Toa Mata were created at the same time as the GSR. So this could only be a story set in the past if they're either INSIDE the GSR on some uncharted island, or in a literally identical scenario to the original G1 Mata Nui story. It would make Okoto either a camoflage island or a GSR continent. I'm pretty sure neither are true. It WOULD technically bypass the fact that the writers have said this is not a continuation though. So I'm not quite as disheartened by this topic as the distant future theory

[northmarch]

@ Munty

Unless they are NOT the same individuals. The G2 Toa would simply be the inspiration for the Toa Mata. Thus explaining the inconsistencies between their personalities and abilities.

[Munty]

If that were to be the case, we would still need to see multiple characters carried over from G2 -> G1 in order to know the names of these Toa and implement them in the Mata. I assume this theory will suggest G2 Makuta is also later G1 makuta but that doesn't work does it as G1 Makuta was made by the GBs.

 

In fact, let me just apologise now for having not read all of the above posts so mayeb I've missed something important. But really NONE of this makes sense unless the G2 story is occurring DURING the travels of the GSR does it? Only the GBs could have created Makuta and they also created lots of others. Unless the argument is that G2 Makuta is also the 'inspiration for G1 Makuta but this would only make sense if the G2 character turns out to be some sort of protector rather than the big-bad. You wouldn't name your 'sherrifs' after a law-breaking, brother hating, world destroying monster after all...

 

It could be surmised that Okoto is a planet that was observed by the GSR prior to the existence of the Makuta or Toa I suppose. The only issue with this is that I believe both of those species existed prior to the GSR leaving Spherus Magna... Perhaps it was observed by the prototype robot? We know it failed and exploded on Spherus Magna but I'm not familiar with any canon media surrounding it so perhaps there is some way to have it so that this robot was active for just a hundred years or so prior to it's power failure. On developing a problem with it's power core (after observing Okoto and perhaps some other places) it returned to Spherus Magna but exploded on re-entry, scattering it's parts throughout the desert. This could also be what caused the planet to finally break apart but I'm not sure when canonically the GSR left the planet, be it pre or post shattering...

EDIT:  

Just before the Shattering, the robot was activated and Mata Nui departed from Spherus Magna. 

That's the MU GSR so the prototype didn't cause the shattering but could still have detonated in orbit as opposed to on the ground. 

 

The robot began to function after it was activated, but after a short amount of time the instability of its power source caused it to violently detonate, scattering pieces of it across the Great Barren. 

That isn't very promising either, though it does leave a little room for artistic license! After all, a short amount of time could easily be a few thousand years given the ridiculously long timeline Bionicle is known for. In fact, the same page on the wiki states that this prototype was built a full 50k years before the MU GSR! It could easily have flown a few missions for them in what little time it remained stable for, though the wiki DOES suggest the GBs just basically built it to see if they could do it!

 

 

I usually don't like these theories because they're all a bunch of unsubstantiated nonsense This one could be made into a workable story though so I'm interested to see where further discussion will take it

Edited January 23, 2015 by Munty

[Votuko]

This is a pretty nice theory, but I think the presence of masks of power before the GBs made them is what stops me going along with it. But perhaps an explanation for that may come along that will persuade me.

 

I usually don't like these theories because they're all a bunch of unsubstantiated nonsense

Nice.

Remember that these theories are being written by your fellow forum users, so deserve a certain level of manners and/or respect.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Xelphene

[Cressona]

If that were to be the case, we would still need to see multiple characters carried over from G2 -> G1 in order to know the names of these Toa and implement them in the Mata. I assume this theory will suggest G2 Makuta is also later G1 makuta but that doesn't work does it as G1 Makuta was made by the GBs.

 

In fact, let me just apologise now for having not read all of the above posts so mayeb I've missed something important. But really NONE of this makes sense unless the G2 story is occurring DURING the travels of the GSR does it? Only the GBs could have created Makuta and they also created lots of others. Unless the argument is that G2 Makuta is also the 'inspiration for G1 Makuta but this would only make sense if the G2 character turns out to be some sort of protector rather than the big-bad. You wouldn't name your 'sherrifs' after a law-breaking, brother hating, world destroying monster after all...

 

It could be surmised that Okoto is a planet that was observed by the GSR prior to the existence of the Makuta or Toa I suppose. The only issue with this is that I believe both of those species existed prior to the GSR leaving Spherus Magna... Perhaps it was observed by the prototype robot? We know it failed and exploded on Spherus Magna but I'm not familiar with any canon media surrounding it so perhaps there is some way to have it so that this robot was active for just a hundred years or so prior to it's power failure. On developing a problem with it's power core (after observing Okoto and perhaps some other places) it returned to Spherus Magna but exploded on re-entry, scattering it's parts throughout the desert. This could also be what caused the planet to finally break apart but I'm not sure when canonically the GSR left the planet, be it pre or post shattering...

EDIT:  

Just before the Shattering, the robot was activated and Mata Nui departed from Spherus Magna. 

That's the MU GSR so the prototype didn't cause the shattering but could still have detonated in orbit as opposed to on the ground. 

 

The robot began to function after it was activated, but after a short amount of time the instability of its power source caused it to violently detonate, scattering pieces of it across the Great Barren. 

That isn't very promising either, though it does leave a little room for artistic license! After all, a short amount of time could easily be a few thousand years given the ridiculously long timeline Bionicle is known for. In fact, the same page on the wiki states that this prototype was built a full 50k years before the MU GSR! It could easily have flown a few missions for them in what little time it remained stable for, though the wiki DOES suggest the GBs just basically built it to see if they could do it!

 

 

I usually don't like these theories because they're all a bunch of unsubstantiated nonsense This one could be made into a workable story though so I'm interested to see where further discussion will take it

Munty, I agree that your points would all be valid if the theory implied that the events on Okoto directly inspired MU inhabitants within the GSR to venerate the Toa Mata-- but luckily that's not what the theory says at all!  It instead postulates that the events of Okoto were know by the Great Beings on Spherus Magna before the GSR was even built or the MU even inhabited, and that the Great Beings, aware of all the Okoto legends, referenced the events of those stories within their creation, most obviously by creating Toa Mata who are directly inspired by the legendary Toa heroes of the myth of Okoto.

 

So nobody within the MU needs to know anything about Okoto at all, and you're right that it probably wouldn't make much sense if they did, given the information we've currently got!

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

This is actually a pretty well thought-out theory. If the events that occurred on Okoto indeed did predate everything that has happened in G1 BIONICLE and the Great Beings based their creations on this myth, that would give the story team enough creativity to do whatever they want and still keep both generations in continuity without any real problems.

 

Not bad!
 

-NotS

[Munty]

Munty, I agree that your points would all be valid if the theory implied that the events on Okoto directly inspired MU inhabitants within the GSR to venerate the Toa Mata-- but luckily that's not what the theory says at all!  It instead postulates that the events of Okoto were know by the Great Beings on Spherus Magna before the GSR was even built or the MU even inhabited, and that the Great Beings, aware of all the Okoto legends, referenced the events of those stories within their creation, most obviously by creating Toa Mata who are directly inspired by the legendary Toa heroes of the myth of Okoto.

 

So nobody within the MU needs to know anything about Okoto at all, and you're right that it probably wouldn't make much sense if they did, given the information we've currently got!

 

Sorry Cressona I don't think I quite understand that post! You say you'd agree if the theory implied that the events DID inspire the MU inhabitants to venerate the Toa Mata. But they don't and frankly I'm not sure the Matoran in the GSR DO venerate the MAta. At least no more than any other Toa as all Toa teams are pretty special! 

 

But then the last line of your post says that nobody in the MU would know anything about this (as it would have been part of the GBs design for the GSR before the matoran even existed) and you also say that makes sense.

 

So do you think it DOES make sense or that it DOESN'T make sense?! Also why do you say 'luckily' that isn't the case? Does that imply that you don't want a valid continuation theory? As I'm in that camp too but it's still fun to discuss such things as long as there isn't a huge amount of indisputable evidence proving the theory wrong from the get go   

 

Xelphene, there was an emote at the end of the sentence you quoted and removing it in your post simply takes it out of context. I'm not getting into this with you as it hasn't gone well in the past. 

EDIT : Also we should bear in mind that this theory would allow for additional years of the story to see the return of other popular characters as has been discussed elsewhere, though but personally I'm super against this... Theoretically though, Gen 2 Bionicle could be the chronicles of the prototype giant robot, each year being a different culture or planet that has been observed. Of course this could potentially leave Gen 2 without any particular personality of it's own, especially if each year is essentially a reboot on a whole new planet with familiar charcters from Gen 1 but not Gen 2. In fact in that sense, it would be like moving onto Gen 3 in a year or so as the prototype moves onto another planet.

 

Just a thought though as the GBs may have taken inspiration from more than just the Mata. There were lots of other Toa teams for starters and Toa were far from the only thing the GBs made!

[IcarusBen]

I think I can help here.

 

GB = Knows about Okoto

MU Inhabitants =/= Knows about Okoto.

 

It wouldn't make sense for MU inhabitants to know about Okoto, but it does make sense for the Great Beings to know about it, if it is a legend amongst their culture.

[Cressona]

 

Munty, I agree that your points would all be valid if the theory implied that the events on Okoto directly inspired MU inhabitants within the GSR to venerate the Toa Mata-- but luckily that's not what the theory says at all!  It instead postulates that the events of Okoto were know by the Great Beings on Spherus Magna before the GSR was even built or the MU even inhabited, and that the Great Beings, aware of all the Okoto legends, referenced the events of those stories within their creation, most obviously by creating Toa Mata who are directly inspired by the legendary Toa heroes of the myth of Okoto.

 

So nobody within the MU needs to know anything about Okoto at all, and you're right that it probably wouldn't make much sense if they did, given the information we've currently got!

 

Sorry Cressona I don't think I quite understand that post! You say you'd agree if the theory implied that the events DID inspire the MU inhabitants to venerate the Toa Mata. But they don't and frankly I'm not sure the Matoran in the GSR DO venerate the MAta. At least no more than any other Toa as all Toa teams are pretty special! 

 

But then the last line of your post says that nobody in the MU would know anything about this (as it would have been part of the GBs design for the GSR before the matoran even existed) and you also say that makes sense.

 

So do you think it DOES make sense or that it DOESN'T make sense?! Also why do you say 'luckily' that isn't the case? Does that imply that you don't want a valid continuation theory? As I'm in that camp too but it's still fun to discuss such things as long as there isn't a huge amount of indisputable evidence proving the theory wrong from the get go   

 

Xelphene, there was an emote at the end of the sentence you quoted and removing it in your post simply takes it out of context. I'm not getting into this with you as it hasn't gone well in the past. 

EDIT : Also we should bear in mind that this theory would allow for additional years of the story to see the return of other popular characters as has been discussed elsewhere, though but personally I'm super against this... Theoretically though, Gen 2 Bionicle could be the chronicles of the prototype giant robot, each year being a different culture or planet that has been observed. Of course this could potentially leave Gen 2 without any particular personality of it's own, especially if each year is essentially a reboot on a whole new planet with familiar charcters from Gen 1 but not Gen 2. In fact in that sense, it would be like moving onto Gen 3 in a year or so as the prototype moves onto another planet.

 

Just a thought though as the GBs may have taken inspiration from more than just the Mata. There were lots of other Toa teams for starters and Toa were far from the only thing the GBs made!

 

 

 

I think I can help here.

 

GB = Knows about Okoto

MU Inhabitants =/= Knows about Okoto.

 

It wouldn't make sense for MU inhabitants to know about Okoto, but it does make sense for the Great Beings to know about it, if it is a legend amongst their culture.

^^^

All the relation between things inside the MU and events on Okoto are, in this view, put there by the Great Beings-- so the GBs know about the legends of Okoto and the 2015 toa and Makuta and Ekimu's eventual fate, and based some of their design of the MU on it, but inside the MU, all they know is the stuff the GBs put there-- they weren't on Spherus Magna and never had the opportunity to hear about Okoto at all.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Cressona

[Tuuli]

They are not agori. We are NOT going back to bara magna. This is not spherus magna either, this is clearly some voodoo mythical past event where Matoran in this MU are actually stronger and can use their elemental powers, and mask powers. They are so beefed up because the GSR was still being built.

[Munty]

What GSR Ras? Noone is suggesting that Okoto is in an MU robot. Noone is talking about Agori or any of the Magna planets either!

 

Cressona and Ben, that's the way I interpret it too which is why I didn't understand the first post as it seemed to be suggesting something about the theory didn't make sense but then it reaqds like you're explaining what would make sense by suggesting exactly what I had sai as well... Even trying to explain it is complicated

 

But yes, GBs would know about Okota (and maybe other civilisations/planets) due to the brief travels of their prototype robot. The inhabitants of the MU would have no idea as it was built a long time after the first one was destroyed, not to mention the inhabitants were created specifically to inhabit the MU. They didn't even know they were in a robot

[IcarusBen]

I've always found that interesting. They know the islands are seperated by domes, I'd think they'd start wondering where they came from.

[Tuuli]

We don't know if Okoto is some island or an island in the GSR which is exciting

[Munty]

We don't know if Okoto is some island or an island in the GSR which is exciting

 

That's true, though I don't think there are a great many people who would think for a moment that it could exist inside the GSR. There are many huge problems with such a theory, namely that Makuta is a completely different entity and the Toa we just got as sets already exist in the MU and most of their existence is canonically accounted for. Plus of course, putting Gen2 inside the MU would HUGELY limit the writing team in every imaginable way. 

 

Also villagers, protectors, powerless masks...

[IcarusBen]

Also, not to go all grammar Nazi, "boot vat ist vit zat viting? If zit wast ze island in ze robot, than zit's still ze island."

 

TRANSLATION: If it's an island in the GSR, isn't still "some island."

 

I went Grammar Nazi there. Oops. Now, if you don't mind...

 

Heil Merriam und Webster.

[Tamarutoe]

It would be awesome if this all turned out to be an elaborate retelling by the great beings of their ancestral fables. Or maybe a dream sequence...

I wonder how confusing chronology can become?

[Munty]

It would be awesome if this all turned out to be an elaborate retelling by the great beings of their ancestral fables. Or maybe a dream sequence...

I wonder how confusing chronology can become?

It would be TERRIBLE if this turns out to be a dream sequence! Can you imagine investing in a 5-year line of gen2 bionicle Nd then finding out none of it was real?

 

And yes I realise the strangeness of this statement as none of Bionicle is actually real but I mean in-universe real obviously...

[Prowl Nightwolf]

I know the topic is outdated based on it coming up near the beginning of the topic itself but may I ask a question regarding the Vahi? Every time it comes up regarding being in Gen2 as a past version of Gen1 I hear the common negating response of "Oh Vakama made it so it isn't the same mask" Or similar arguments. Well may I ask how this relates to other Konohi or masks of power? Mind you my knowledge of Gen1 wile growing still has holes so why I am asking... Yes Vakama made a mask of time, the Vahi at request of Makuta masquerading as the Turaga at the time. However what if he was told to make another mask instead? Say the Hau? Would we presume no such mask existed prior to a mask maker crafting it? So why the idea with the Vahi? The Vahi was a legend in its own right, that's why Makuta wanted it and somehow Vakama managed to create one... though maybe not as powerful as the original mythical version possibly crafted by Ekimu in Gen2?

 

This is just my 2cents as while other aspects may be discredited for several reasons I am tired of seeing the false idea that while Vakama is well known as making a Vahi, he did not design or discover it personally. The concept and possibly an actual mask may have existed some time in the past... Saying just because somebody is known for crafting a particular mask doesn't mean that was the first one or concept there of the mask in question...

 

Anyone can feel free to try and prove me wrong if there is actual canon somewhere stating that Vakama's crafted Vahi was in fact without a doubt the very first of its kind.

[Munty]

That's a very good point Prowl... I suggested earlier that the events on Okoto may be observed by the Great Being's prototype robot (a loooong time before the GSR) which led them to later create the Toa Mata based on the appearance of the Okoto Masters. It could also be true that the Vahi (especially if it's part of the Gen2 storyline) was observed by the proto-robo and somehow Makuta had a memory of this in Gen 1.

 

It should be remembered that I'm not a fan of these attempts to link the 2 generations and I believe there is ZERO link in reality but I do enjoy discussing this one as (unlike all the others) it isn't immediately disproved by long-standing well-established facts

[Votuko]

That's a very good point Prowl... I suggested earlier that the events on Okoto may be observed by the Great Being's prototype robot (a loooong time before the GSR) which led them to later create the Toa Mata based on the appearance of the Okoto Masters. It could also be true that the Vahi (especially if it's part of the Gen2 storyline) was observed by the proto-robo and somehow Makuta had a memory of this in Gen 1.

 

It should be remembered that I'm not a fan of these attempts to link the 2 generations and I believe there is ZERO link in reality but I do enjoy discussing this one as (unlike all the others) it isn't immediately disproved by long-standing well-established facts

I agree with Prowl's point too - some people think that because Vakama made the Vahi, he would need to be in G2 in order for the Vahi to be in G2 (which is of course wrong).

 

I like this theory, but personally I think it is more plausible that G2 is far in the future of G1. That way the Toa can be the same characters rather than there being two teams of the same name (inspiration is a possible scenario, but seems less likely than there just being one team). Plus, Toa from the past makes sense with the "timeless" description whereas a completely different team wouldn't really.

 

And Munty, I think you may be exaggerating just a tad when you say that all other theories are disproved by "long-standing" facts. There have been many other viable theories on S&T that fit existing canon, for example the Great Being war theory (I can't remember the poster's name), or my own (not that I want to resurrect that at the moment ). In fact, I was under the impression that if a theory actually is disproven on these forums, the thread is closed...

 

Theories with G2 being set in the past tend to be more at odds with "facts" because they require the Great Beings not to have actually invented Kanohi, Toa etc. and instead having stolen the ideas from elsewhere (as others have mentioned, this seems to contradict some continuity). Then Artakha has to have been influenced somehow to make the Mata according to an exact design from Great Being legends - it just adds more unlikeliness.

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Plausible. The possibility of the story being in the past was a theory I considered quite a bit myself.

[Lyichir]

I like this theory, but personally I think it is more plausible that G2 is far in the future of G1. That way the Toa can be the same characters rather than there being two teams of the same name (inspiration is a possible scenario, but seems less likely than there just being one team). Plus, Toa from the past makes sense with the "timeless" description whereas a completely different team wouldn't really.

Wait... what? The most obvious reason for the G2 and G1 Toa Teams having the same names is that it's a reboot. Reboots almost ALWAYS involve new versions of classic characters, and the only reason that needs to exist for them having the same name is that out-of-universe context.

 

Just as an example, no one has any reason to wonder why Tobey Maguire's character in Spider-Man shares a name with Andrew Garfield's character in The Amazing Spider-Man, because audiences understand that it's a new depiction of the same character, and characters within either series are unaware that the other exists, because in their universe, they literally don't.

 

Also, "timeless" could describe pretty much any legendary character, but even if it is referring to the classic Toa it's most likely a metatextual reference to the context of the reboot, not some clue that Lego's going to tie the new story back to the classic one that they've deliberately avoided continuing.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Hehe, Spiderman may not have been the best example to disprove the idea of being the same character... First you acknowledge they are the same character and while their story arcs are somewhat different and hereby state neither could know about the other... I direct you to other Spiderman content where in Marvel they actually have a Multiverse and same characters can and have met their alternate selves. Spiderman with the help of Madam Web is but one example... So wile these actors depictions have not to date somehow met up with the other and therefore do not know the other or any version of themselves exists... That by no means they wont... be it in comic or other media form.  Infact if one though about it long enough using this as an example could lead credit to the Gen2 Toa team being the very same as the Toa-Mata. By applying the multiverse theory and using the Spiderman movies as support one could say much that how the two sets of movies are the same character, just a different telling of the story, Gen2 Bionicle fits the bill equally as well.

 

These are the very same Toa of Gen1 while not ripped from their own timeline or universe per say, Because of this their very creation could be different or even slight tweaks to their personality because of this... Though since we do not know to date how the Gen2 Toa were created or by whom... there is more to learn before a definitive statement can be made.

[Munty]

Yeah the spiderman thing doesn't really work. We KNOW that those stories aren't linked together in any way at all because they';re all essentially retellings of the life of one individual. Some of the characters are constants in every reimagining/reboot but the way things happen is different every time. Gen 2 Bionicle is similar to that in ways so far but when something as significant as the island where the story takes place is different I think we can be sure that this is not just a rewrite of existing material. While that doesn't disprove that the Gen 2 Toa could in fact BE the Gen 1 Toa it certainly doens't prove it either!

 

 

I agree with Prowl's point too - some people think that because Vakama made the Vahi, he would need to be in G2 in order for the Vahi to be in G2 (which is of course wrong).

I like this theory, but personally I think it is more plausible that G2 is far in the future of G1. That way the Toa can be the same characters rather than there being two teams of the same name (inspiration is a possible scenario, but seems less likely than there just being one team). Plus, Toa from the past makes sense with the "timeless" description whereas a completely different team wouldn't really.

And Munty, I think you may be exaggerating just a tad when you say that all other theories are disproved by "long-standing" facts. There have been many other viable theories on S&T that fit existing canon, for example the Great Being war theory (I can't remember the poster's name), or my own (not that I want to resurrect that at the moment ). In fact, I was under the impression that if a theory actually is disproven on these forums, the thread is closed...

Theories with G2 being set in the past tend to be more at odds with "facts" because they require the Great Beings not to have actually invented Kanohi, Toa etc. and instead having stolen the ideas from elsewhere (as others have mentioned, this seems to contradict some continuity). Then Artakha has to have been influenced somehow to make the Mata according to an exact design from Great Being legends - it just adds more unlikeliness.

 

 

I don't think that theories set in the past come up against ANY contradictory facts personally simply because there ARE no facts about the past in Gen 1 bionicle. Everything prior to the GSR launching and even then the first 90,000 years of it's journey are basically unwritten. We know there was a prototype robot, we also know it exploded. We don't know if it left the planet for any amount of time first. What little reference material that exists would suggest it probably didn't but I don't know where the wiki got that information from so it can't be relied on word for word. Also, EVERY theory relies on some artistic license and interpretation. This theory needs very little of it to remain plausible. 

 

Theories about this being a far future have MUCH bigger problems. Like how is Makuta alive when we KNOW he is 100% dead. Is HE a different character in Gen2 but with the same name? And if he is, then why do you find it harder to believe the Gen 1 Toa could be different beings who were named after the Okoto Masters after they were observed by the prototype robot? It's VERY easy to explain how the Okoto being named Makuta inspired the creation of the brotherhood of Makuta, though this may be more or less true as the story develops. 

 

Maybe... Makuta turns out to be the good guy after all then leaves the island of Okoto when it is safe. He's somehow absorbed or transported or whatever gibberish you want by the prototype robot and is later used to create the code for the brotherhood thus giving it his name in the process. Perhaps it's also true that Makuta saved Okoto by creating and using the Vahi to control and change the flow of time. That would explain how Teridax (essentially a son of Gen 2 Makuta [making the Rahkshi his Grandchildren awwww!]) knew about the Vahi all along, it was in his code! See... Distant past theory? WAY easier to explain without contradiction

 

erent I think we can be sure that this is not just a rewrite of existing material. While that doesn't disprove that the Gen 2 Toa could in fact BE the Gen 1 Toa it certainly doens't prove it either!

 

EDIT: Forgot to make this point

Then Artakha has to have been influenced somehow to make the Mata according to an exact design from Great Being legends - it just adds more unlikeliness.

 

The gen 1 Toa are COMPLETELY different to the Gen 2 masters, significantly inferior in every way. So the Toa Mata have been copied from the Masters but they're by no means the same. They don't even function correctly without their masks! It's almost as if an Asian toy company saw some excellent Lego set and decided to copy it poorly and sell it as their own. Funny that isn't it

Edited February 11, 2015 by Munty