Implications of Time Travel?

[Blastcage]

Hey guys...as you probably know, the Toa in the reboot are time travelers, whom the Protectors summoned using the Vahi, the Mask of Time. So time travel is a thing now...you might be thinking "yeah, big deal" right now, but I'm here to ask an important question that doesn't really have an answer...what are the implications of time travel? What sort of consequences or effects could this have? Anyone who has seen X-Men: Days of Future Past and/or the Terminator movies - no, I'm not advocating a Bionicle/Terminator crossover unless it's a non-canon miniseries - knows the in-universe ramifications we've seen in those universes. Time travel is at least partly responsible for screwing up the Terminator franchise, so I wonder if LEGO really should've opened this can of worms. I can see it being done tastefully, but I can also see it ending badly. But enough of my opinions, I'd like to hear what you guys think!

[The 1st Shadow]

Hey guys...as you probably know, the Toa in the reboot are time travelers, whom the Protectors summoned using the Vahi, the Mask of Time. So time travel is a thing now...you might be thinking "yeah, big deal" right now, 

Actually, I'm kinda thinking "Where the heck did you get the idea that they were time travelers?"

 

No, we don't know that.  The Protectors used the Mask of Time, yes, but nowhere does it say that it pulled them out of the past or the future--just that it summoned them from wherever they were to the island of Okoto.

 

Since time travel has not been confirmed, I don't really see the point of this topic.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

Where does it say that the Protectors used the Mask of Time to summon the Toa? I kind of remember seeing it in one of the recent Lego magazines, but I'm not sure myself. I checked BS01, and it said this for how the Protectors summoned the Toa:

When the stars aligned, the current Protectors gathered at the Temple of Time and recited their prayers, following the Prophecy of Heroes. Six Toa then rained from the skies onto Okoto, each landing in a different region of the island. 

 

Anyways, to answer your question, time travel isn't one of my favorite concepts in storytelling either. The concept was used pretty good in X-Men: Days of Future Past, and I agree that it did have a hand in lowering the quality of the Terminator films. (Or at least the latest one coming out in the summer, according to its trailer) If it isn't used carefully, it can cause a lot of plot holes and other issues with a story, which is why I would rather the concept of time travel not be introduced into the story.

 

If it is brought in, though, I would like to follow use the same rule that Lost had when it introduced time travel into its story. And that rule was 'Whatever happened, happened.' It was simply a rule that stated that the past couldn't be changed if you traveled back in time, no matter what you did. If Bionicle 2015 followed this rule with time travel, I would be okay with it in the story. Otherwise, I would prefer it not be used at all in Gen 2 Bionicle.

Edited January 24, 2015 by The Master Sword

[fishers64]

It's confirmed (in a Lego Bionicle promo insert) that the Protectors used the Mask of Time to summon the Toa. How isn't specified, and time travel isn't confirmed.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Could we get screen caps of these articles or something? I mean I know from somewhere that they did go to the temple of time and a lot of depictions of the Vahi in the art but did they really use a mask that for all we know does not actually exist yet if at all? I mean of they pulled the Toa out of time then either they could be Gen1 Toa or they are pulled from this incarnation's timeline.

 

As for the time paradox deal that can be easily explained with the logic that something has happened because you went back in time to make it happen. For example Back to the future when Doc gets shot. We know he survives because Marty went back in time to tell him. However Marty doesn't know that because he had to leave scared and run away to the past. It is why the rule that you cannot change the past because no matter what you try to do it is already history. Even if you don't know your future self does something doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

That or you end up with the multiverse theory where every action or lack there of creates a web of alternate realities where every action that could take place does/did. Your path along this web is only one possible outcome. Even still you'd never know about the other incarnations.

[aldero]

I don't think that the Protectors used Time Travel to summon the Toa. In the Prophecy of Heroes animation, we see the carvings on the walls. The Toa probably would be time travelers if Spherus Magna was a planet shown, but instead, the Toa are shown to have come from six separate planets... I think.

 

To further debunk this, the Vahi doesn't actually have time travelling powers. It is stated that the Vahi can only speed up or slow down time in a certain area. Sure, one (really, really, really powerful being) can drastically speed up time to get to the Okotoverse, but that's not time travel, and nothing will change in the world the user left by speeding up time. Plus, we don't even know if G1 and G2 are in the same continuity. 

 

Please, just stop coming up with this ridiculous things about time connecting universes. The only thing that can connect universes is an Olmak.

[Iben]

I do want to add two things.

1) It does not matter whether the Vahi is able to perform time travel or not. This is not important, because the Protectors used a Mask of Time. It is not said that they use the Vahi, it's simply a mask that controls time. It really does not matter what the Vahi can do or can not do. As far as we know, this is a mask that controls time and is capable of summoning Toa. At this point the only thing we can do is assume that it's a new mask, as we're in a reboot. New mask, new rules.

2) Although it's not confirmed, it is a logical assumption that "heroes of future and past" summoned by a Mask of Time, were brought here through the means of time travel. It isn't confirmed true, but it's a logical assumption, I don't see anything wrong with that. However. Time Travel isn't the same as "a connection between Gen1 and Gen2". It simply means time travel. I honestly couldn't care less if there was a connection between the two gens. For me it would be nice to have a very loose and open way of allowing interpretation of that point, but time travel isn't something you can use as proof that there is a connection. We don't need to assume that time travelling means travelling between the two generations, it could easily mean time travel within this new generation.

 

All we can do at this point is speculate, and I don't see a problem with people speculating. Perhaps a unified topic for it, but still, I don't see a problem with it. The thing we can all agree on is that time is an important element in this new story. We get a Mask of Time, timeless heroes from future and past, a Temple of Time and several Vahi cameos. Time seems to be referenced quite often, so we can assume that it plays a significant role in this storyline.

 

-Iben

[Blastcage]

Someone mentioned the Vahi being unable to perform time travel...that was the G1 incarnation, we don't know for sure what the G2 version is and isn't capable of just yet. Anyways, I'm pretty sure I heard/read somewhere that the Toa had traveled "across space and time" to reach Okoto. Dunno, perhaps I screwed up somewhere along the line. But I'm not trying to find a connection of any sort to G1, that's not even something I particularly want. As for the paradox...think of the Terminator paradox. John Connor sends his father back in time so he can be born...but his father was born after him, creating a grandfather paradox. These are the kind of paradoxes I'm wanting to avoid and is why I created this topic. But hey, maybe it's a case of me overthinking this.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

actually the Grandfather paradox is when you go back in time to kill your own grandfather before your own father was born thereby preventing any chance of you being born to go back in time to kill your grandfather to begin with. If your father is never born, he cannot aid in your own creation thus you wouldn't be born to be able to go back in time to kill your grandfather. If you don't kill your grandfather then your father is born then you so now that you are born you can go back in time to kill said grandfather. Thus why it is called the "Grandfather" Paradox. Because two events in time counteract the possibility of either actually happening.

 

The other option being alternate realities where when you kill your grandfather you create and alternate timeline where your dad and thus you were never born, however as you were in order to go back and kill your grandfather you're timeline is still intact and your grandfather sired your father who in turn sired yourself.

[Blastcage]

actually the Grandfather paradox is when you go back in time to kill your own grandfather before your own father was born thereby preventing any chance of you being born to go back in time to kill your grandfather to begin with. If your father is never born, he cannot aid in your own creation thus you wouldn't be born to be able to go back in time to kill your grandfather. If you don't kill your grandfather then your father is born then you so now that you are born you can go back in time to kill said grandfather. Thus why it is called the "Grandfather" Paradox. Because two events in time counteract the possibility of either actually happening.

 

The other option being alternate realities where when you kill your grandfather you create and alternate timeline where your dad and thus you were never born, however as you were in order to go back and kill your grandfather you're timeline is still intact and your grandfather sired your father who in turn sired yourself.

 

Ohh...yeah, that's why time travel can be confusing/irritating. Although I do like that it can be used to reboot or clean up a messy continuity, like in DoFP or Terminator: Genisys. But like was mentioned, we don't know the powers of G2's Vahi, or how big of a role it will play in the story.

[Lyichir]

Just because the Protectors used the Mask of Time to summon the Toa doesn't in any way confirm that time travel is involved. While I'd LOVE for the new universe's Mask of Time to have more powers than the previous "Mask of Mutual Slowness", the animation specifically showed a planetary alignment leading to the Toa's arrival—isn't it equally possible that the Protectors used the Mask of Time to make that alignment happen ahead of schedule?

[Pomegranate]

I'm sure that if time travel shenanigans are involved, whatever consequences they may have will only appear if the story teams plans them to. The Bionicle universe isn't gonna implode from a corrupted space time event by itself, you know, it has to be written. I seriously doubt time travel is going to be an important part of the new mythos, probably just a little bit of side flavor. Seeing as we know almost nothing, it's also possible that time travel will become the main plot gimmick of the new generation. It's impossible to theorize anything right now, only speculate-- and loosely at that.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Just because the Protectors used the Mask of Time to summon the Toa doesn't in any way confirm that time travel is involved. While I'd LOVE for the new universe's Mask of Time to have more powers than the previous "Mask of Mutual Slowness", the animation specifically showed a planetary alignment leading to the Toa's arrival—isn't it equally possible that the Protectors used the Mask of Time to make that alignment happen ahead of schedule?

I've bolded the part I like best in this. The Vahi Mask of time is a bit misleading as one cannot travel through time only slow or speed up forward. like a VCR or DVD/blueray player with no rewind only a slow or fast-forward option. So if by chance the Protectors did use the Gen1 Vahi to summon the Toa I don't see how that would be possible. now there could be a different Mask of time much how there is a new Mask of creation and Control (Was there a gen1 mask of control?) So if they do different things maybe there is a different type of Mask of time if they did use one on Gen2. Thus having a different effect.

[RahiSpeak]

HUGE EDIT, PLEASE RE-READ:

 

It occurs to me that paradoxes might very well be impossible, simply because time-travel to the past may very well be impossible. If I am not mistaken, all matter and energy has a sort of "continuity line", which is a figurative idea that traces the existence of said matter/energy. Basically, the law of the Conservation of Matter and Energy says that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed; so what happens when matter/energy from the future returns to the past? I say "returns" because obviously it already existed. Well, there certainly cannot be more matter/energy at any given time, so rather than the continuity line looping back into the past, it simply moves straight backwards. That's the effect, but technically you could loop back via wormhole, the continuity lines would simply "intercept" and everything would be just as it was. In other words, if I were to go back in time five years, then everything about me would revert back to its state five years ago. If I were to go back in time twenty years, then everything about me would revert back to the way it was twenty years ago. Now I wasn't yet born twenty years ago, so I would just be a bunch of random chemicals scattered all over the world. So the Toa could not have come from the future and therefore there cannot be any such related paradox in Gen2. That's the science, but I suppose LEGO can write any story they want. Anyway, traveling from the past to the future is totaly possible; we do it every day. Want to get there faster? Just slow down time in your immediate vicinity and time outside will, by comparison, march quickly by. So, if the Vahi had slown down time around the Toa for xyz number of years, the Vahi would simply have to release its hold (rather than begin to use it) and there we have our time-traveling Toa. They would certainly be timeless if the Vahi is potent enough.

 

Something worth noting from the above paragraph is that you cannot actually theorize about paradoxes. The Grandfather Paradox was introduced as an example of a paradox that is impossible to resolve because it relies on circular-logic. For many years people have pondered how to fix this problem, but they only assumed there was a solution because they assumed that going back in time was possible. Modern physics (and this post) however, are finding that such is not the case. One cannot go back in time and therefore no such paradoxes can arise. This transcends science, which changes from one fictional universe to the next; it is a matter of logic, which is absolutely pervasive. We have all seen movies, read books, and watched TV shows where traveling to the past is possible, but not one makes actual sense if the concept is really thought about (Grandfather Paradox really trumps all). While LEGO can make up any story they wish, no one can actually try to resolve a paradox. Whatever LEGO decides to do, the story would be paradox-free* and that only works if one does not think about it too hard. If you are trying to theorize about paradoxes, then you have already thought about it too hard.

 

*Paradoxes, by definition, are impossible occurences. Regardless of what LEGO tries to call a "paradox" they cannot exist in the story or else it would immediately come to an end.

Edited January 25, 2015 by RahiSpeak

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

For clarification, the reference to the Mask of Time is on the Golden Mask page:

 

 

-NotS

[Prowl Nightwolf]

well a mask of time does not mean the vahi only a timeless mask maybe. Thanks for the post. I'd never of seen this otherwise.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I'm pretty sure they do mean Mask of Time. There are a lot of references to time already in the online animations alone. 

 

-NotS

[Tuuli]

well a mask of time does not mean the vahi only a timeless mask maybe. Thanks for the post. I'd never of seen this otherwise.

If it's not the Vahi, then what is it, sir?

[The 1st Shadow]

 

well a mask of time does not mean the vahi only a timeless mask maybe. Thanks for the post. I'd never of seen this otherwise.

If it's not the Vahi, then what is it, sir?

 

The Masks don't have names, it seems. The Mask of Time is just called the Mask of Time.  The Mask of Fire is just the Mask of Fire. Also, this is G2--the Vahi was a G1 thing.

[Petersheikah]

If the Vahi is a thing in G2 i'd love to see who forged it. It could be Ekimu, but I dubt he could make such mask because he knows how powerful and dangerous masks can be. It could be Makuta, but why would he forge it if he already has the Mask of Ultimate Power that gives him unlimited abilities? It could be Vakama itself, but I doubt we'll see the original Turagas in G2, even if I'd love to have a rebooted version of Toa Metru.

[bonesiii]

Re: summoning Toa with the Vahi -- the most likely theory, it seems to me, at least if we take one assumption as a given, that there's a callback in this bit of the story, is that the Toa, who are described as "timeless" were in some kind of stasis, awaiting being summoned. The use of the Mask of Time could simply release their being frozen in time, and they launch to the island somehow in response.

 

No need for time travel; this would fit the Gen 1 pattern of events because the Toa were in a sort of stasis before Mata Nui feel asleep. It's not much of a stretch to change the canister vehicles' stasis fields into some effect of time slowing for Gen 2. Somebody could have set all this up in ages past, so that some mechanism or magic something-or-another 'knows' that the moment the Toa are released from stasis, they are to launch to Okoto from those planet/moon/star thingamabobs. That would explain their being "summoned" and yet fit nicely with the known powers of the Vahi (which doesn't include literal summoning abilities!).

 

The only real stretch is the apparent huge distance, but G1 Vahi was a Legendary mask; it's possible it could operate across that distance (Ignika at least could teleport Toa Mahri from Mahri Nui to Metru Nui, a pretty big range). And maybe, presuming there's no Legendary system in G2, the Mask of Time being in the Temple of Time amplifies or channels its power somehow... or maybe long ago it could cast a time-freezing 'spell' on them, with no range needed continuously, and the range only is needed for the breaking of the spell (the "summoning").

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Well I know there is another Time-ish altering Mask in Lore. While I don't know what it is called I know that there is a mask that can summon copies of the user in time and allow them to fight with the user. The downside is that anything that befalls the copy like death, remains after it is returned to it's own time while also wiping the memory. If I am remembering correctly the user didn't like using the mask as he always ended up with injuries without any idea how he got them.

 

This could be classed as a Mask of Time, though not the Vahi as that was shown to just be able to slow or speed up time around a selected area but not alter events that have already happened. It is true it seems that Masks this rotation do not have special names as they did in Gen1 they are not even called Konohi. So the Mask of Time for Gen2 could both look and function similar to what the Gen1 Vahi did. If that is true I can see where Bonesii's idea could works as The Gen2 Toa could have been frozen in time by the original creator/user of the Mask of Time. Or as it took all the Protectors and not just one to use, maybe requires multiple users to undo the "Spell" originally cast on the Toa...

 

Just a thought....

[The Meta Knight]

Well I know there is another Time-ish altering Mask in Lore. While I don't know what it is called I know that there is a mask that can summon copies of the user in time and allow them to fight with the user. The downside is that anything that befalls the copy like death, remains after it is returned to it's own time while also wiping the memory. If I am remembering correctly the user didn't like using the mask as he always ended up with injuries without any idea how he got them.

 

This could be classed as a Mask of Time, though not the Vahi as that was shown to just be able to slow or speed up time around a selected area but not alter events that have already happened. It is true it seems that Masks this rotation do not have special names as they did in Gen1 they are not even called Konohi. So the Mask of Time for Gen2 could both look and function similar to what the Gen1 Vahi did. If that is true I can see where Bonesii's idea could works as The Gen2 Toa could have been frozen in time by the original creator/user of the Mask of Time. Or as it took all the Protectors and not just one to use, maybe requires multiple users to undo the "Spell" originally cast on the Toa...

 

Just a thought....

Kanohi Mohtrek, the Mask of Time Duplication.

 

Interesting thought, but I don't think summoning duplicates of the real Toa from another time is something the story team would consider doing.

Edited January 26, 2015 by The Meta Knight

[Prowl Nightwolf]

wow, Smart little Star warrior. Thanks for finding the mask I was talking about. Did you know already to what mask I referred or did you have to search for it? 

[The 1st Shadow]

Re: summoning Toa with the Vahi -- the most likely theory, it seems to me, at least if we take one assumption as a given, that there's a callback in this bit of the story, is that the Toa, who are described as "timeless" were in some kind of stasis, awaiting being summoned. The use of the Mask of Time could simply release their being frozen in time, and they launch to the island somehow in response.

 

No need for time travel; this would fit the Gen 1 pattern of events because the Toa were in a sort of stasis before Mata Nui feel asleep. It's not much of a stretch to change the canister vehicles' stasis fields into some effect of time slowing for Gen 2. Somebody could have set all this up in ages past, so that some mechanism or magic something-or-another 'knows' that the moment the Toa are released from stasis, they are to launch to Okoto from those planet/moon/star thingamabobs. That would explain their being "summoned" and yet fit nicely with the known powers of the Vahi (which doesn't include literal summoning abilities!).

 

The only real stretch is the apparent huge distance, but G1 Vahi was a Legendary mask; it's possible it could operate across that distance (Ignika at least could teleport Toa Mahri from Mahri Nui to Metru Nui, a pretty big range). And maybe, presuming there's no Legendary system in G2, the Mask of Time being in the Temple of Time amplifies or channels its power somehow... or maybe long ago it could cast a time-freezing 'spell' on them, with no range needed continuously, and the range only is needed for the breaking of the spell (the "summoning").

Now, here's an idea I can get behind. The Toa being in "time stasis" reminds me a lot of the Time Lock concept in Doctor Who: "A single moment in time, frozen and hidden away in a parallel pocket universe." If this is how it worked, then the Toa would have been contained just out of sync with the universe, and the Mask of Time would have undone the "lock," releasing the Toa back into the time stream and landing them on Okoto. That would explain the word "timeless"--they would have been stored in a place where time held no effect on them.

 

As for the Temple, perhaps it was designed as an amplifier for the Mask. What about it makes it the Temple of Time, anyway? Why not just "Great Temple?" Unless, of course, it does have some tie to some far bigger plot involving the as-of-yet-unseen Mask of Time. Maybe.

 

 

wow, Smart little Star warrior. Thanks for finding the mask I was talking about. Did you know already to what mask I referred or did you have to search for it? 

To be fair, I knew it, but Meta got to it while I was still replying to bonesii's post. It would seem I got Kapura'd by my favorite Smash Bros character.

[Takametru007]

honestly, I think it would be rather lame to have all these references to time and have it NOT have a time travel element. it was bad enough that the vahi couldn't time travel (very disappointing)- it would be horrible if all this "time setup" was just a stasis removal or to speed up some planets - if done right, time travel would be a great twist to the new story, and really something that was never present in the old one. I'd like to see it done.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Takametru007

[Iblis]

Implications of time travel? Utterly arbitrary;

 

But statistically it indicates a poorly executed story if used as anything other than an ignition for something and is then almost dropped more often than not...

Seriously the more people play around with it the more opportunities arise to annihilate ones suspension of disbelief, but it can work even when applied somewhat haphazardly; Doctor Who is still going strong.

 

A look at the quality of various books/movies/etc. ...the more time travel is used and explained ...it's a huge gamble.