Toa Empire: For kids?

[Saint-14]

Hey everybody! Haxorus here, and today I'd like to direct your attention to the Toa Empire universe. This storyline popped up in the podcast Dark Mirror, and helped to expand on the storyline involving Toa Tuyet.

 

For those of you who don't know, Tuyet was a Toa of Water, and an insane one at that. In both timelines, she was being tracked down by Dark Hunters for the Nui Stone in her possession. Now, to get some help for her situation, she decided to kill Matoran and blame the DH. Yes, you read that right, KILL Matoran! However, Toa Lhikan found out, and went to stop her (most of this plot was dealt with in The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet).

 

In the alpha timeline, Lhikan and Nidhiki take her down, and the story continues on from there.

 

However, in the Toa Empire universe, Nidhiki sided with Tuyet, and the two of them killed Lhikan. After a series of events, Tuyet eventually managed to become the ruler of Metru Nui in this timeline, and started exterminating random parties that could pose a threat to her empire. Long story short, Takanuva happens to pop in to this universe, and during his escape, accidentally severs Tuyet's body in two (the portal created by the Olmak closes on her while she is halfway through it)

 

Now, onto the maturity part. First off, we have an adult figure going around killing the common folk. While children these days are more familiar with death than in the past, few are familiar with mass murder (plus the act of killing itself, regardless of however many deaths happen, is pretty adult-rated). Second, the concept of there being more than one universe, as well as all of the backstory, goes well over the target audience's head. Some children may have grasped the concept, but I feel like it may have been going overboard. Lastly, Tuyet's abrupt death (and the means of her death) are pretty gruesome, even for mature audiences. Granted there aren't organs or other bits to be left behind, but the thought of being severed in two is enough to make anybody squeamish.

 

So, what do you all think? Was Tuyet's story in Dark Mirror (and in the main universe) safe for children? Could children understand the concept? Please share your thoughts

 

(I apologize if any info is wrong, this is mostly from memory here)

Edited February 7, 2015 by Haxorus

[Pomegranate]

It seemed fine, nothing particularly out of the ordinary for Bionicle, it was just a more evil setting and things escalated much quicker than usual. The only thing exceptionally dark was the portal cutting Tuyet in half (I'm not misremembering that, am I? ), the rest was pretty run of the mill. Children aren't as naive and pure as you might think, I'm sure it's nothing they haven't seen before. I know Star Wars, specifically the prequels, are very much beloved by young children, and I watched Qui-Gon Jinn get murdered and his assailant proceed to fall down a hole in two flailing halves before I even got into Bionicle, and I'm pretty sure by the time Dark Mirror was published we had the final film come out, featuring a slaughter of schoolchildren and an emotional death in childbirth, amongst so many other things that are way, way worse than magic robots having a civil war in a very rushed story Greg probably wrote after marathoning all of Star Trek's Terran Empire Mirror-verse episodes

And an alternate universe isn't really that hard to grasp. It's just another make believe story, and Takanuva jumped into a different one.

[Mailli]

This is why Bionicle stood out from the rest of Lego's products; darker, longer, more detailed storyline.

 

Hope Gen 2 keeps to this idea.

[Iblis]

Did some parts go over children's heads?

 

I answered "Maybe", but honestly there is usually someone who does't understand something, I don't however think there would have been too many in this instance (that had a critical misunderstanding which deterred them).

 

^{(Mind you I don't really like the use of multiverses in most series... but I really don't think kids misunderstanding of it was a huge issue here.)}

[Toa Doublebee]

This is why Bionicle stood out from the rest of Lego's products; darker, longer, more detailed storyline.

 

Hope Gen 2 keeps to this idea.

 

I really hope so too. But I doubt it

[Lyichir]

I don't think the story's darkness, on its own, was a crippling flaw. But it wasn't an asset either—darkness, on its own, doesn't make a story good, and when it's forced into a short podcast it can lose all sense of the appropriate gravitas and end up seeming grim for grimness' sake.

The story's presentation of a dystopian mirror universe could also be frustrating for fans who really just wanted adventures in the "real" Bionicle universe, and unfortunately Greg would continue to indulge in marginally-relevant alternate universe stories many more times...

[Tuuli]

Adult bionicle. I just hope it doesn't become THAT kind of adult.

[Xabla]

I loved it. bUt it probably went over children's heads.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

I feel like Greg was holding back a little since it was a kid's toy line... Dark Mirror could have easily been a much more depressing and frightening story if Greg had wanted it to be.

 

The serial could have been "dark" for the sake of being "dark" and "gritty", which is what most young adults are attracted to these days. I'm glad Greg didn't take that route.

[Zidonaro]

None of the serials are really for kids

[bionicleFanatic]

I think people underestimate kids a lot: they understand it all right. Wether or not they find it squeamish or not is a matter of personal taste.

 

For me, I'd take a little grit over legends of Chima anyway... []

 

(For the note, both Marvel and Transformers have multiple AUs. Kids understand it perfectly [])

[UnderscoreChronix]

Eh. I really liked Dark Mirror personally. 

Pohatu and Lesovikk were just so cool.

[RahiSpeak]

I don't think going over children's heads is really much of a problem simply because I do not think that younger children as a majority look into the story with that much detail or scrutiny; most probably never knew about any of this. However, for those who did know about it, there are two trains of thought regarding how much they understood. On one hand, it's a pretty simple concept going from one universe to another. In one world it's like this and in the other it's like this. On the other hand, there brains are not quite as developed and may find the idea of two different worlds with the same characters confusing. The most likely option is probably a mixture of the previous two: they did not completely understand  it but simply accepted it and maybe even forgot about it later on.

 

Too dark? That is highly dependent on who you ask. Let's face it, some parents just don't put enough of a filter on what their kids see; they probably wouldn't be phased at all. As far as whether Tuyet's deeds and death are actually too dark for BIONICLE's target market (8-12 years old), it is not likely to scar them, but it is a little inappropriate. It may just be one of those times where Mr. Farshtey forgot who his audience was and just went with writing whatever story he thought was best. After all, this was the climax of the story and things had to get darker to create the suspense and the atmosphere to properly characterize the final events.

[Dralcax]

There were no images of the gore and the violent death of Tuyet was through a portal as opposed to somebody's sword or whatever. Yes, it's dark, but I think kids can handle it.

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

she decided to kill Matoran and blame the DH. Yes, you read that right, KILL Matoran! However, Toa Lhikan found out, and went to stop her

 

Did she actually kill them or not? You haven't made that clear.

 

Given that Matoran are the closest thing that Bionicle has to children, any deaths are obviously a pretty heavy subject.

 

 

 

I watched Qui-Gon Jinn get murdered

 

Death in battle doesn't count as murder.

 

 

 

we had the final film come out, featuring a slaughter of schoolchildren

 

That part's a bit controversial, because it takes Anakin/Vader from someone who simply joined the other side (a wrong act, but arguably forgivable given that he eventually rejoins good) to a child murderer (an act of pure evil surely beyond forgiveness).

[Saint-14]

 

 

she decided to kill Matoran and blame the DH. Yes, you read that right, KILL Matoran! However, Toa Lhikan found out, and went to stop her

Did she actually kill them or not? You haven't made that clear.

 

Given that Matoran are the closest thing that Bionicle has to children, any deaths are obviously a pretty heavy subject.

Sorry for being unclear

 

Yes, Tuyet did kill Matoran, which is one of the main reasons why I brought it up (death isn't new, but like you said, when it is as close to children as Matoran are it is pretty crazy)

Edited February 7, 2015 by Haxorus

[fishers64]

I vote Yes, Maybe, and No. I didn't like it that much, and didn't see the point of it much. Too much death, not enough story. 

[Xabla]

None of the serials are really for kids

Some of them

Never underestimate the power of a child

[Ballom Nom Nom]

I think a lot of the podcasts probably weren't noticed by the general target audience of Bionicle anyway, due to being minor storyline contributions that were only available online, without much advertisement. Still, it did seem excessively violent for Bionicle, with a brutal totalitarian regime and all.

 

Honestly, I don't think a single one of Greg's alternate universe stories was good. The whole concept of throwing the characters into a random side universe seemed pointless. (Alt-Teridax had the potential to be interesting because he was dropped in the main universe that we actually are concerned about, rather than the other way around.) Apparently such shenanigans are common in superhero comics, and apparently Greg's a big fan of those, but that doesn't justify shoehorning it into Bionicle.

 

So in sum: not for kids, didn't like, but it probably went over their heads (hopefully).

 

 

we had the final film come out, featuring a slaughter of schoolchildren

That part's a bit controversial, because it takes Anakin/Vader from someone who simply joined the other side (a wrong act, but arguably forgivable given that he eventually rejoins good) to a child murderer (an act of pure evil surely beyond forgiveness).

 

His "simply joining the other side" involved subsequently oppressing and killing people around the galaxy for a couple of decades, so I don't think that's particularly forgivable.

 

~B~

Edited February 7, 2015 by Ballom

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I really liked Dark Mirror because it was the first time we got a journey into an alternate dimension before Greg decided to overuse that concept. It was interesting to see Takanuva travel through a corrupted version of his own universe, meeting up with his Matoran self and teaming up with the Makuta. Moreover, I liked how his confrontation with Tuyet shows that Toa aren't all sunshine and rainbows, and relates to Takanuva himself because he could have ended up following that path if he succumbed to his dark side. 

 

The action was pretty intense for what should be a kids narrative. The battle at the start of chapter 8 is extremely violent and of course, Tuyet's evisceration is quite brutal. The content is pretty well-described so I don't think it really could have "gone over kid's heads". But regardless, I do agree that the intended audience for the story serials were not kids but older fans who wanted to delve deeper into the story and see what other side characters are up to. I'm under the impression that the majority of serial-readers were in the latter half of the target audience (11-16) and older. The online distribution on a site separate from Bionicle.com was probably the only way we could have gotten serials like "Dark Mirror" - it simply would not have been possible to publish as a children's book. 

 

-NotS

[Rooster Nui]

It is pretty dark, but not too dark that it shouldn't be told to or read by kids. I personally think that it could've been toned down just a little bit, but the darkness level it has isn't the worse, though having Matoran get killed by Tuyet is a bit of a shocker. I think it is mostly safe for children, but It'll definitely surprise some of them.

 

As for them grasping the concept, I think they would get the idea that it's in another universe, but they might find that most of the Toa being evil and Makuta Teridax being a "friendly" in this universe to be atleast a bit confusing.

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

I do agree that the intended audience for the story serials were not kids but older fans who wanted to delve deeper into the story and see what other side characters are up to. I'm under the impression that the majority of serial-readers were in the latter half of the target audience (11-16) and older.

 

It's essentially Bionicle for a different audience. I think I remember hearing somewhere that they can get away with more dark and intense content in the books and serials because it's not directly shown (as it would be in a comic or movie).

 

 

 

we had the final film come out, featuring a slaughter of schoolchildren

That part's a bit controversial, because it takes Anakin/Vader from someone who simply joined the other side (a wrong act, but arguably forgivable given that he eventually rejoins good) to a child murderer (an act of pure evil surely beyond forgiveness).

 

His "simply joining the other side" involved subsequently oppressing and killing people around the galaxy for a couple of decades, so I don't think that's particularly forgivable.

 

Maybe I worded it too lightly, but brutal oppression surely isn't quite on the level of child murder.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

 

It's essentially Bionicle for a different audience. I think I remember hearing somewhere that they can get away with more dark and intense content in the books and serials because it's not directly shown (as it would be in a comic or movie).

 

Indeed. Bioniclestory.com in general seems to be directed at an older audience. I mean, a lot of them had Greg looking for input on this site (which you technically can't join if you are under 13 I believe) and we got stuff like Empire of the Skrall and Sahmad's Tale that I can't really see being written with the target audience in mind.

 

Also regarding Star Wars Ep III - that was rated PG13 so I don't think you can consider that a "kids movie".

 

-NotS

Edited February 8, 2015 by Nidhiki of the Shadows

[aldero]

I feel like Greg was holding back a little since it was a kid's toy line... Dark Mirror could have easily been a much more depressing and frightening story if Greg had wanted it to be.

 

The serial could have been "dark" for the sake of being "dark" and "gritty", which is what most young adults are attracted to these days. I'm glad Greg didn't take that route.

 

Greg certainly could have made it darker. He could have written a story about Karzahni getting the Mask of Creation and ruling the universe, or the League of Six Kingdoms becoming a tyranny and... ruling the universe. Even some of the Legends books, which were, mind you, aimed directly towards children, had a dark and sombre tone.

 

Even if Bioniclestory.com was aimed towards older fans, Greg would have to hold back. It's not his job to write Mario Puzo material.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Professor Turnip

[Xarok]

I'm pretty sure BZP had no age requirement because they wanted to keep it family friendly discussion where anyone could join in as long as they could read and write.

[Axilus Prime]

You want a good story, you write it without any regard for making it kid-appropriate or not and focus simply on making it good. And if it's good, chances are both kids and adults will like it. At the time I first heard Dark Mirror, I was around 10 and had absolutely no problem with any part of it.

 

Kids can enjoy a story that doesn't pull any punches, and in my experience they actually like it better that way.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I first read Dark Mirror when I was 10. I found it dark, but not inappropriate. It was my favorite serial back then and remains my favorite serial to this date (though Birth of a Dark Hunter and Federation of Fear are close contenders too).

[derhenson]

As far as the Dark Mirror story goes, I think it's totally appropriate for kids. Considering some of the media children are exposed to, I'd say it's incredibly mild (my friend's parents let him watch "Kill Bill" when he was five, and most boys my age started playing Halo and Call of Duty when they were younger than ten). Also, it wasn't gratuitous, or dark for the sake of being dark. It was telling a very important story about the corrupting influence of power, and showed that even heroes are susceptible to their own dark sides. I'd say that's an important lesson.

Edited February 8, 2015 by derhenson

[Irrie]

Did "kids" even listen to the podcasts? 

I know I sure didn't when I was younger. I only started reading the serials a few years ago, because I had such a short attention span when I was a kid. 

[JMSOG]

Dark mirror is one of the better examples of why I liked gen1 so much: at no point did greg underestimate or "look down upon"  the kids in his audience. He had faith that kids would be able to grasp difficult concepts, which is something i liked...So no, I don't think it was too dark or to mature.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

"dark alternate future" is nothing new, but sLICED IN HALF!?

 

I.. I didn't realize that happened? In a story that keeps itself pretty General Audiences for the most part?

 

Geez, that seems kind more like something I would have written than actual bionicle content. :0

[Banana Gunz]

I mean, the story wasn't really meant to be light. When it was published, I imagine a lot of the young fans of Bionicle were older. Plus, kids handle this type of stuff at much younger ages nowadays. I was much younger when I read it, and I wasn't really bothered by it much... strangely enough. It was creepy, gross and shocking, but I thought it was pretty thrilling story-telling wise.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I am not Gothic (sub-culture-wise, not sure about ethnicity), but even as a kid my Mother would call me the dark child, not because I was lacking morality or anything of the like, but simply because I found an appropriate amount of darkness to be quite cool. When material like Dark Mirror, and Sahmad's Tale came out, I absolutely loved those. Then again, I (mostly) tend to be more mature then those of my age group (I currently feel like my age has started to catch up to my soul) and I like(d) to read, so none of it flew over my head. The atmosphere of lurking shadows was a reason why I love BIONICLE Legends and forward so much.

 

Early Gen1 was child-geared, so I am watching to see if Gen2 follows 'the light hearted character building before tossing them down the pit' path like it's predecessor, or if Lego deemed that to have been a possible mistake and will always ensure things don't trek the path of the Dark Side (not to mention overwhelming complexity). .

[Toa Smoke Monster]

1. No, I didn't think the story was too dark. It was darker, yes, but so was the majority of Bionicle's story at that time anyways. I never thought that it went too far with its story, even with Tuyet being killed by the closing portal. 

 

2. Maybe.

 

3. This is probably one of my favorite serials, next to Federation of Fear and Empire of the Skrall. I'm kind of surprised I'm saying that because I typically don't like alternate dimensions, since they can distract from an official story sometimes. But I did like this one a lot.

[Dark_Stranger]

1. No. Kids are a pretty resilient bunch as far as fiction is concerned. I speak from experience.

2. No. I have siblings in the target audience, and they have no problem with alternate dimensions.

3. Just toss me in with everyone else who loved the blasted thing.