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The mystery of Artakha


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I honestly don't know why people have problems with Artakha's description.

 

"...was arranged in intricate patterns and designs, each reflecting one of the many cultures that flourished in the universe" conveys to me, at least through its writing, just how ancient and knowledgeable Artakha really is compared to everyone else present in that processing room.

 

"The eye slits were angular and pointed, giving him an air of both wisdom and a vague sense of menace." That gives me a good indication of the duality of his character, which is important because Artakha had been completely elusive until this point. 

 

It's not a good way to describe a set certainly, but that's assuming Artakha would ever get a set release. I'm sure Greg was counting that he wouldn't.

 

Also, I would be completely fine with Ekimu's mask of creation being the appearance of the G1 Mask of Creation as well because to me, it fits Artakha's described characteristics perfectly. 

 

-NotS

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Agreed, NotS -- no idea where the idea that it's unpicturable comes from. I'm not seeing any reasoning getting to there in the posts claiming that (I decided to read through them after all as I have more time than expected today). I found that description plenty informative enough to make my own version a while back. Maybe the confusion is that people misread "each reflecting one of the many cultures" as "each of the many cultures was reflected".

 

Some thoughts from Lychir's posts and a few others:

 

Yes, Karzahni did rebuild himself—specifically because he was planned to appear in a set that did not resemble that original depiction. Set design in the original Bionicle always decided the course of the story. As such, I've always found it stifling to limit your vision of a character (especially for MOCs and artwork) based solely on what the story explicitly stated

 

There's some truth to this, but Karzahni isn't a great example, because his entire job was about rebuilding people. It added to his character well to say that he was actually good at it with himself but not others -- showing him to be selfish. Most character transformations are things that simply happen to them (sometimes their character traits do lead them to seek or run into the transformations, but causing transformations is not a normal part of their personalities usually, unlike with Karzahni).

 

Also, deciding to make art that does try to stay close to a description doesn't imply you're limited to that description. You could make one piece that uses that strategy, and another that reimagines the character completely -- the artists themselves are not limited. Plus, it can actually expand your horizons as an artist to try to work within limits (for some art) defined by others, to see if you can do it. :) Having a rule that you won't do this is itself limiting.

 

Greg's penchant for assigning ridiculous visual traits to characters without regard to whether they'd be visually compatible with anything else in the established universe.

This is a theme in several of Lychir's posts, but it forgets one simple thing. LEGO being a toyline with a universe of MOCers means that it's good to give challenges to help inspire MOCers. (And artists.) Not everything should be an easy MOC. So it makes sense to 1) not release official sets of everything in the story, and 2) have some of them being genuinely challenging so people have something to aspire to. :)

 

It also helped simply challenge the imagination of the reader to describe things in-story that were a challenge to visualize (especially Tren Krom, but Artakha counts here too -- and I personally greatly enjoyed the challenges of drawing them both! -- but I got that even just from reading the descriptions). It gives the story itself a life of its own that can be invigorating.

 

If you close yourself off to that, that is self-limiting.

 

Xel:

 

I would have liked to see the G1 Mask of Creation. Its description of being the most ornate mask ever, with writing of every MU culture etc., make it sound like it would look amazing if they had ever drawn it.

Yeah, looks like at least one person did take it to mean "every culture". I did try to include as many as possible in my interpretation (within a scale of detail it would be possible to make in a life-sized mask so the parts wouldn't be too fragile). The G2 one seems to have simply taken the idea of being intricate and having a few different designs as symbolic of varying cultures, which fits the description loosely. But the G1 description does not actually say that every culture is directly represented. It says that there are many designs, and each of them represents a culture (likely a major culture like the Matoran, Xia, Stelt, etc.).

 

Revisiting Lychir's first reply to my post:

 

There is zero doubt that the Vahi for G2 will be a revamp because it will have to be redesigned to attach to the new heads. Beyond that the classic Vahi mold is ancient (one of the first masks designed for Bionicle), terrible (designed to use a soft plastic formulation that's far inferior to the one used for current masks), and probably long gone (hasn't been used since 2004). Rereleasing the original one would be a cruel prank indeed.

It does seem as if Lychir's 'disagreement' with my first post is actually based on the plastic attachment thing, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said... The plus-bar of the original plastic masks did not even exist in the story. It's the basic shape of the outer surface (the "face") that I'm talking about, and that really should be obvious (but oh well). :lookaround: I'm talking about this versus something more like this. :P

 

(And what the basic shape has to do with how soft the plastic is, no idea... As for being ancient, that works both ways -- it's "the most outdated" or "has the highest nostalgia value." You could go either way with that. I dunno what to think. The original mold being gone is irrelevant; they can just make another based on the same shape.)

 

Lychir's reasoning after that seems to morph into actually arguing that the face will be significantly revamped (which is what I was suggesting, so really not sure why he was upset...). I think he makes a good case for that (but it should have been made calmly and for fun, but hopefully we're past that), but the fact that G2 has already shown a Vahi image several times that is very similar to the original shape means that alternative is the only theory with evidence.

 

I think it would be a mistake to assume that means the shape will be almost indistinguishable from the original -- especially if they haven't even yet designed the mold (or hadn't when those animations were made). But it's also a mistake to assume the mask will definitely look very different. The future has a way of smashing such assumptions. (And since one of these options will happen, when one side turns out to be right, they may unfortunately see it as vindication for their dogmatic insistence. It is not -- since one side of two mutually exclusive options must be right. A coin flip would produce the same results and not prove that the insister had any sound proof that that particular side would land up.)

 

Greg's inability to differentiate Bionicle from an overwrought fantasy franchise

There's two ways to go with this. First, Bionicle is what its producers make it. Second, "over" must be based on something objective to be true. Some people prefer simpler, but those making it complex generally know that -- and also know that some prefer more complex. Which you appeal to is subjective, and majorities can vary over time. If you look into the thinking behind G2, for example, you'll see at least one piece of evidence that they were actively thinking simple based on modern attention spans in watching vids on cellphones. When G2 was around [started], that wasn't really a thing; people would sit down on couches and watch longer TV broadcasts, or read long books since they had more time.

 

To argue that the simplicity of story today would be a good fit to then is anachronistic.

 

And since at the time it wasn't really "over" (had ten years of success being this), there was no inability here. However, times did change, and the complexity did objectively get too much in the last few years, as has been discussed in many past topics. (But that isn't inherent only to fantasy. Anyways.)

 

Lychir's next  reply to me:

 

In-story it will match the sets

Sorry, this logic doesn't work, since I was pointing out why the connection wasn't what I was talking about, and your first reply did focus on that. The connection does not exist in the story. The sets are representations of the characters, just like the LEGO set of the Millenium Falcon having studs sticking off of it here and there doesn't mean the in-story spaceship is (that :P) bumpy.

 

Currently they're using the classic Vahi shape in easter eggs, but that's the point—it wouldn't be a very good easter egg if it alluded to a mask zero fans had actually seen

I don't see why something like my coolified Vahi wouldn't be recognizeable as the Vahi to most everybody. Just how revamped are you thinking? I was thinking the lower-half and between-eyes part would basically be there, but just looking fancier, like what they did with most of the Toa's masks. (Of course, Lewa's is a more dramatic change. Who knows.)

 

But again, we don't know that the animators were shown a G2 Vahi design anyways, so it may be irrelevant.

 

 

 

When the Vahi does appear in G2, it probably will resemble the classic one—but then, so do all the Toa—that's the POINT of a revamp.

 

Then I'm confused as to what you are arguing with. I never suggested it wouldn't.

 

Anyway, I was only taking issue with that one part of the statement—that the Vahi had been alluded to in it's original shape, and that it "might" appear in a different form in the plastic. But those "allusions" are irrelevant to the canon (apart from subtly hinting the known fact that the Mask of Time will return), and when it does finally appear for real, there's no chance that it won't look different.

But that last premise has not been proven. I strongly suspect it will be different enough that people will notice, but on what basis is there no chance? (Keep in mind its being revealed in the future and this turning out to be true won't prove that we knew it definitely beforehand.)

 

We'll know beyond a doubt when it's revealed or when they confirm something. Before then, we don't know. Simple, really.

 

I wrote out an entire freaking post [arguing against fishers'] argument (such as the fact that we've been told explicitly that we'll get a new Vahi, and that we HAVEN'T seen the new story's Vahi canonically, or that the Vahi easter eggs resembling a new version of the mask would completely defeat the purpose of easter eggs, or the fact that Artakha's description is not enigmatic, it's explicit, and explicitly terrible to boot)

Well, I won't try to guess what your computer ate, but to what you did try to summarize in parentheses:

 

1) As you admitted, it's already logical that we should expect a new Vahi in plastic terms since it needs a new mold for the new connection. This doesn't comment on how radical the revamp will be in terms of the 'face'.

 

2) Not knowing the shape right now was my point and you argued against it. We don't know that your view is right either -- precisely because we haven't seen it. (I've seen this fallacy happen a lot in a lot of debates... and it's puzzling. The logic is "We haven't seen it, therefore we know X about its shape." Saywut?)

 

3) I don't see why easter eggs' points are defeated either way. The easter egg's point is about the buzz it creates now, and the actual G2 shape is irrelevant to that.

 

4) Whether Artakha's G1 mask description was enigmatic or not doesn't mean one claim or another about the new Vahi's shape is true or false, but it's also somewhat "in the eye of the beholder." I was intrigued by the description, and I think I could fairly call that somewhat enigmatic. It definitely made me want to sketch some versions of it and see it any of them felt like they matched, and I went through a few drafts in the process that I rejected. :shrugs:

 

5) Your last point is explictely the "taste discrimination fallacy" as I used to often refer to it -- arguing from your own personal taste to an attempted objective conclusion. And the popularity of the Vahi would be strong evidence against this taste being too widespread, I'd think. :shrugs: Of course, part of its appeal is the silliness of looking like Swiss cheese... but yeah. :P

 

And... there goes the clock. Later gators.

 

Edit: Finished going through -- there really wasn't anything more I wanted to reply to, so yeah. :)

Edited by bonesiii
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Oh no! There are two Masks of Time!! All flow of Time and space will break down. Existance as we know it will not longer function! "WE are gonna die...".
 
In all seriousness I am going to have to fall in line behind Bonesiii here. I mean look at this. We already know that the Gen2 Masks do not look identical to their Gen1 counterparts However do look enough like them to be visually recognizable. Even though this seems to be a custom job(Love it by the way Bones :D) Looks enough ascetically to the Gen1 that if they released this interpretation we could not really say this could not be the Mask of Time. It also looks like the sides of the mask do come further up the face allowing for the gen2 connection design to work effectively.

 

If I may Bonesiii, regarding your quote of the description of Artakha's armor and mask. While I can agree that one's interpretation of a sentence could be misread. One cannot forget that in certain languages the sentence structure is slightly different. Many languages when directly translated into English word for word seem backwards and spoken as if by Yoda. While this may not be the case here and I am thinking not. It seems easier to believe that while his Armor shows signs of several of the cultures it does not have all of them. Makes making a MOC easier to interpret be it in set form or art.

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Yup, I concede that I originally misremembered the Mask of Creation's description when I said "every culture". :)

Having checked the BS01 description later, I realised that I should have said "many cultures", but forgot to edit my older posts.

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Also, I would be completely fine with Ekimu's mask of creation being the appearance of the G1 Mask of Creation as well because to me, it fits Artakha's described characteristics perfectly. 

Speaking of the Mask of Creation, I would love to see someone make a G1 Mask of Creation using the G2 mask as a base, because we both know that the G2 mask have a different look from there G1...            beside Lewa and Gali which there mask don't have a different look, in fact they look nothing like there G1 mask at all.

 

 

Currently they're using the classic Vahi shape in easter eggs, but that's the point—it wouldn't be a very good easter egg if it alluded to a mask zero fans had actually seen

I don't see why something like my coolified Vahi wouldn't be recognizeable as the Vahi to most everybody. Just how revamped are you thinking? I was thinking the lower-half and between-eyes part would basically be there, but just looking fancier, like what they did with most of the Toa's masks. (Of course, Lewa's is a more dramatic change. Who knows.)

 

But again, we don't know that the animators were shown a G2 Vahi design anyways, so it may be irrelevant.

I was thinking the G2 Vahi is going to have it look 85% (or something) like it's G1 but of a upper part of the mask, plus it maybe unlikely that we will see the G2 Vahi next year (plus it's likely that they would out the mask in a $30 set).

Also about Lewa mask, that's not his original mask at all, it's really the Mask of Cybermen :P

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Also, I would be completely fine with Ekimu's mask of creation being the appearance of the G1 Mask of Creation as well because to me, it fits Artakha's described characteristics perfectly. 

Speaking of the Mask of Creation, I would love to see someone make a G1 Mask of Creation using the G2 mask as a base, because we both know that the G2 mask have a different look from there G1...            beside Lewa and Gali which there mask don't have a different look, in fact they look nothing like there G1 mask at all.

 

 

Currently they're using the classic Vahi shape in easter eggs, but that's the point—it wouldn't be a very good easter egg if it alluded to a mask zero fans had actually seen

I don't see why something like my coolified Vahi wouldn't be recognizeable as the Vahi to most everybody. Just how revamped are you thinking? I was thinking the lower-half and between-eyes part would basically be there, but just looking fancier, like what they did with most of the Toa's masks. (Of course, Lewa's is a more dramatic change. Who knows.)

 

But again, we don't know that the animators were shown a G2 Vahi design anyways, so it may be irrelevant.

I was thinking the G2 Vahi is going to have it look 85% (or something) like it's G1 but of a upper part of the mask, plus it maybe unlikely that we will see the G2 Vahi next year (plus it's likely that they would out the mask in a $30 set).

Also about Lewa mask, that's not his original mask at all, it's really the Mask of Cybermen :P

 

I know right? It looks nothing like a great Miru.

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While I agree that the new "Miru" and "Kaukau" are the least similar looking to the original masks, they still undoubtedly retain many quality of the originals, and even take elements from other versions of the respective Toa it belonged to. Lewa still has his "grin" but seems to take inspiration from his Phantoka mask, and Gali has her visor and triangular mouth but appears to have similarities to her Nuva mask. I think it's safe to say that the Vahi will have some similarities to the G1 mask (and I guess it probably will have to, since they are teasing the Vahi in the animations by depicting its original form) and that if the Mask of Creation did indeed have a G1 form, it would have looked somewhat similar to this reboot's iteration.

 

-NotS

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Did anyone notice that we stop talking about Artakha.

Also with Gali and Lewa mask, I only seen one tiny similaritie and that is Lewa mata grin and somewhat Gali nuva upper part of the head. I do not see a visor and triangular mouth on Gali mask at all.

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Did anyone notice that we stop talking about Artakha.

Also with Gali and Lewa mask, I only seen one tiny similaritie and that is Lewa mata grin and somewhat Gali nuva upper part of the head. I do not see a visor and triangular mouth on Gali mask at all.

Well, the visor in particular is fairly obvious from front view (as is the "mouth", although really that motif has morphed into less of a mouth and more of a subtler pattern), which can be seen in this picture. But really, as you observed, that has nothing to do with Artakha or his mask. Could you please try to keep your stubborn rants to topics where they're actually relevant?

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But I love ranting :c

But I still don't see what you are talking about, it still look nothing like Gali old mata mask at all. anyways, lets get back on topic of Artakha while I'm making a MOC of Artakha out of boredom.

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If there is still interest in discussing the Mask of Time, I have a topic over in Bionicle Discussion for the set related revamping-ness. FTR though I mildly disagree that the bones' Vahi could fit on the new face as someone suggested - it looks too wide, and I'm not sure the sides curve up quite enough to hit the connection points. (But that's my eye.)
 
As for Artahka:
 

At the sight of Artakha, the chamber went silent.
 
He stood at least 10 feet tall. His armor was gray-green and covered in runes carved at the beginning of time. His mask was the most ornate anyone had ever seen – more than just a Kanohi, it was a true work of art. The metallic protodermis from which it was forged was arranged in intricate patterns and designs, each reflecting one of the many cultures that flourished in the universe. The eye slits were angular and pointed, giving him an air of both wisdom and a vague sense of menace.

 

That's what we're wrangling over. It's about 5 sentences long, so it's not long. It's also not incredibly detailed - simply says "runes" and "intricate designs" without telling us what those are, exactly. Admittedly, I goofed previously in thinking the mask had runes on it when it really was the armor that did, but I suppose that's neither here nor there...

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But I love ranting :c

But I still don't see what you are talking about, it still look nothing like Gali old mata mask at all. anyways, lets get back on topic of Artakha while I'm making a MOC of Artakha out of boredom.

Funny I like to babble. Gets me in trouble at times.  :P

Any way your making a Moc of Artakha for this thread. May I use it as a reference for my Artakha sprite?

 

If there is still interest in discussing the Mask of Time, I have a topic over in Bionicle Discussion for the set related revamping-ness. FTR though I mildly disagree that the bones' Vahi could fit on the new face as someone suggested - it looks too wide, and I'm not sure the sides curve up quite enough to hit the connection points. (But that's my eye.)

 

As for Artahka:

 

At the sight of Artakha, the chamber went silent.

 

He stood at least 10 feet tall. His armor was gray-green and covered in runes carved at the beginning of time. His mask was the most ornate anyone had ever seen – more than just a Kanohi, it was a true work of art. The metallic protodermis from which it was forged was arranged in intricate patterns and designs, each reflecting one of the many cultures that flourished in the universe. The eye slits were angular and pointed, giving him an air of both wisdom and a vague sense of menace.

 

That's what we're wrangling over. It's about 5 sentences long, so it's not long. It's also not incredibly detailed - simply says "runes" and "intricate designs" without telling us what those are, exactly. Admittedly, I goofed previously in thinking the mask had runes on it when it really was the armor that did, but I suppose that's neither here nor there...

You can make almost any shape into a rune. I honestly think the Matoran and Agori language are written in a runenic alphabet. So maybe Artakha here has some Agori on his armor? Seeing how he was alive during GSR construction and all.

 

I'm glad so many of you liked my tarnished point too. I had never even thought of the comparison to Karzahni's rust like nature. thats a good idea.

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"A single grain of sand, can topple a mountain". You may think a small idea like tarnish vs rust is not really important Toa Komali, but clearly it is a breakthrough in the idea behind Artakha's color pallet.

"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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"A single grain of sand, can topple a mountain". You may think a small idea like tarnish vs rust is not really important Toa Komali, but clearly it is a breakthrough in the idea behind Artakha's color pallet.

I think you misread my post. I said I'd never thought of it till after it was pointed out that Artakha was tarnish that Karzahni would fit as rust.

 

This isn't small at all it's awesome if you ask me. As you said "A single grain of sand, can topple a mountain". The tinyest of heros can topple a giant.

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