How did the Great Kanohi come to Mata Nui?

[Munty]

This only occurred to me a few days ago but since it did I've been unable to fully understand the events which led to the presence of the Great Kanohi masks of the Toa Mata and their Suva on the island of Mata Nui. I just did a little reading into such things on BS01 but it doesn't really explain anything as much as I'd hoped so I thought I'd ask some of the S&T folks what the general consensus is on such things!

 

The way I understand it, the Toa Mata were always destined to be sent to the 'camoflage island' created by the GSR in the event of any great disasters. But were the Suvas also generated my the GSR as a standard part of the camoflage process? It seems they'd be necessary for the Toa Mata to achieve their full potential which was necessary in the 2001 arc for the overthrow of Makuta (though it's possible they could have overcome smaller problems without their Golden kanohi, therefore making a suva unnecessary...) Part of the BS01 page for the Suva mentions that they CONTAIN the golden kanohi though which I never realised. It always seemed to me that they just kind of wore all six masks upon finding them and cycled their powers (like a CD changer!) and that on collecting the final mask needed they would naturally obtain the golden kanohi. I don't remember the bit of the comic/story when they physically placed their 6 kanohi on the suva to obtain golden masks which would be helpful right now! 

 

So suva, where did they come from and how? And why force the Toa to work so hard for the golden masks? Why not just give them the golden mask right away?

 

More importantly though, where did the 30 other great kanohi come from? Who put them there? I can believe that the Suva were created by the GSR as part of the camo program but not the Kanohi. They need to be made, or at least hidden, by a physical being rather than a planet sized robot's failsafe programming. Again, the Toa Mata and their golden masks seem to exist for the sole purpose of 'rebooting' the GSR so why not give them the best possible chance of success right off the bat? We're not talking about 1,000 years of degradation after all, we're talking about them having significantly reduced powers due to their designers giving them the wrong mask. Even if we believe that the golden kanohi were improvements made while the Mata were sleeping it still doesn't make sense that they weren't given to them in-situ or at least simply placed at the suvas without requiring a crazy scavenger hunt to unlock them. The GSR and it's designers seem to be stacking the odds against themselves by essentially employing an outdated anti-virus...

 

So that's it, though there are many more intricacies relating to the above queries. Is there an explanation for this anywhere that I've missed? Would appreciate any light that can be shed on this

Edited March 11, 2015 by Munty

[UnderscoreChronix]

I'm not sure. 

Also if the golden masks were inside the Suvas, why go around collecting 6 masks and putting them on to open it when you can just break into the suva and take the gold one?

Edited March 11, 2015 by -Chronix Master of Stuff-

[Jacks]

The Toa Metru brought the 30 extra Great Masks (and the 30 extra Noble Masks) and hid them around the island before becoming Turaga.

 

Given that the Golden Kanohi were actually zapped to the island by Artahka, who made them in the first place, I would guess that the Suva may have been his doing as well? I'm not really clear on the whole Suva thing either tbh

[UnderscoreChronix]

The Toa Metru brought the 30 extra Great Masks (and the 30 extra Noble Masks) and hid them around the island before becoming Turaga.

 

Given that the Golden Kanohi were actually zapped to the island by Artahka, who made them in the first place, I would guess that the Suva may have been his doing as well? I'm not really clear on the whole Suva thing either tbh

How did the Turaga get hold of so many Great Kanohi? 

Also if they brought copies of their own masks as well, why not bring the Great versions?

Also what happened to the airships they used to fly themselves and the Matoran there?

Edited March 11, 2015 by -Chronix Master of Stuff-

[Takametru007]

the masks were made on metru nui, and the toa metru brought them to mata nui. I don't think the turaga ever explain why they hid the masks, but I think it was more to hide them from the Makuta than from the toa.

[Taria Pakari]

Also what happened to the airships they used to fly themselves and the Matoran there?

 

The air ships were dismantled and used for building materials.

[Jacks]

the masks were made on metru nui, and the toa metru brought them to mata nui. I don't think the turaga ever explain why they hid the masks, but I think it was more to hide them from the Makuta than from the toa.

It was to hide them from Makuta, but also to ensure that only a Toa could retrieve them.

 

 

How did the Turaga get hold of so many Great Kanohi?

Vakama is a mask-maker. He'd have easy access to wherever Kanohi were stored on Metru Nui. No conundrum there.

 

Also if they brought copies of their own masks as well, why not bring the Great versions?

Perhaps they realized they would have to become Turaga -- or at least Vakama may have, through visions; he was the one who realized that Toa power was needed to reawaken the Matoran. Or perhaps they did not have time to consider which masks they were bringing and just grabbed five copies of the first twelve masks they found. In that case, destiny could have played a role in ensuring that they masks they took were the right ones.

 

Also what happened to the airships they used to fly themselves and the Matoran there?

They were used to construct the six villages. Remember the elevators in Onu-Koro and Le-Koro? The bridge into Ta-Koro? The pump in Ga-Koro? Repurposed airship machinery, every bit of it. It's all on BS01.

[doodleloot]

How did the Turaga get hold of so many Great Kanohi? 

Also if they brought copies of their own masks as well, why not bring the Great versions?

Also what happened to the airships they used to fly themselves and the Matoran there?

 

I think the Toa Metru found the Kanohi in the Great Temple and decided to take them to the Mata Nui. They didn't take the great versions of their own masks because those didn't exist by the time they started selling the mask packs.

The airships were harvested for materials they could use to build new villages.

 

Edit: Oops, I didn't see that the questions were already answered.

Edited March 11, 2015 by doodleloot

[The 1st Shadow]

The Suva were built by the Turaga as shrines to the Toa they knew would one day come. Only the Kini Nui and the Great Telescope were set out by the GSR's systems.

 

The Kanohi came from Makuta, actually. Go back and read Maze of Shadows. The Toa Metru find a vault filled with great masks and assorted disks. These masks were Teridax's attempt at making Kanohi, supposedly so he could try to make the Vahi himself. However, he lacked the skill for it, so he resorted to Vakama, but his many attempts still remained in a secret vault near one of his lairs. The Toa Metru then took these masks and hid them all over the island. 

 

As for the Goldn Kanohi, the Suva thing is non-canon. The GK were made from the combined powers of each Toa's six Kanohi, but they were granted by the carvings of each Toa at Kini Nui. The BS01 pages say that the description in the first book is accurate.

 

 

And all of this information IS on BS01, just so you know

Edited March 11, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I thought Artakha made the Kanohi and just teleported them around the island according to that one Order of Mata Nui agent's reconnaissance before said agent was killed by Teridax, finding good hiding places and what not.

 

If I am wrong on this then I am not sure where I got the information from.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Iaredios

[The 1st Shadow]

I thought Artakha made the Kanohi and just teleported them around the island according to that one Order of Mata Nui agent's surveillance before said agent was killed by Teridax.

 

If I am wrong on this then I am not sure where I got the information from.

You are correct, but only about the Kanohi NUVA. Artakha was the only being who knew how to make Kanohi Nuva, and so they could only have come from him. The regular great masks came from Makuta's practice.

[Jacks]

 

I thought Artakha made the Kanohi and just teleported them around the island according to that one Order of Mata Nui agent's surveillance before said agent was killed by Teridax.

 

If I am wrong on this then I am not sure where I got the information from.

You are correct, but only about the Kanohi NUVA. Artakha was the only being who knew how to make Kanohi Nuva, and so they could only have come from him. The regular great masks came from Makuta's practice.

 

Artakha made the Kanohi Nuva and the Golden Kanohi, in fact. The Golden Kanohi were hidden within the Kini Nui (yeah, I was totally wrong on the Suva thing -- my brain always reverts to viewing MNOG as 100% canon ) and it was the Toa Mata's collections of masks that unlocked them, but the collected masks did not create the Golden Kanohi.

 

also thanks for the memory jog re:Maze of Shadows. That is not one of the books that stuck in my mind

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Yeah the Great Konohi were created by combining Kanoka disks of certain powers and levels. It stands to reason that the masks were created before traveling to Mata Nui-- most likely by Vakama but other mask makes may have existed. Also what T1S stated about Makuta making them... wait what? *looks back at T1S' post* That's what it says... Maybe that's the call back in Gen2 of Makuta being a mask maker with undesired products? Was a thought. Anyway...

 

As for scattering them... It stands to reason that if anyone could get them it would not show they were ready to beat whatever was plaguing the island at any given time. The search for each mask was a test or training to make sure the Toa were the right owners of said masks. As for the Nuvas... I have no idea. Did they have to search for them as well? I don't know when or if the Turaga built the Suvas as shrines but I think I remember reading that they got deactivated. So the Toa were not able to freely switch between all their masks. As for receiving a Golden Konohi, I don't think the Turaga made them. If they existed prior to the collecting of all the masks or not. Now the Suva mold is just a Toa canister lid, so it's possible that if the GK already existed and was locked away within the Suva, it stands to reason one would need so many keys to unlock it. Or it is possible that the GK are created upon collecting the other masks. Like a manifestation of having every mask power. Or something to that effect.

 

It would help if I knew if the Toa could use every mask power while wearing their GK or if the mask still had to change shape to use the other's powers.

[Jacks]

Nah, I'm pretty sure T1S is right about the Makuta thing, although it's been quite a while since I read Maze of Shadows.

 

As for the Nuvas... I have no idea. Did they have to search for them as well? I don't know when or if the Turaga built the Suvas as shrines but I think I remember reading that they got deactivated. So the Toa were not able to freely switch between all their masks. As for receiving a Golden Konohi, I don't think the Turaga made them

Artakha forged the Golden Kanohi and the Kanohi Nuva, as we have established in earlier posts. BS01 is pretty clear on the matter.

[The 1st Shadow]

Nah, I'm pretty sure T1S is right about the Makuta thing, although it's been quite a while since I read Maze of Shadows.

 

As for the Nuvas... I have no idea. Did they have to search for them as well? I don't know when or if the Turaga built the Suvas as shrines but I think I remember reading that they got deactivated. So the Toa were not able to freely switch between all their masks. As for receiving a Golden Konohi, I don't think the Turaga made them

Artakha forged the Golden Kanohi and the Kanohi Nuva, as we have established in earlier posts. BS01 is pretty clear on the matter.

 

Ah, yes. Forgot about Artakha making the GK.

 

Anyway, the bit I mentioned in MoS was after their encounter with the Rahi Nui and Karzahni, and they were searching for Makuta's lair. That's how Vakama concluded that Teridax made the masks. Fortunately, they were functional enough, intact, and already close to the island of Mata Nui, so no need to drag more up from Metru Nui.  Just in case you all wanted a reference point.

Edited March 11, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[fishers64]

But Challenge of the Hordika clearly shows Gali breaking into the Great Temple and stealing masks and whatnots. Plus the "Makuta vault" would have been near Metru Nui, and they would have had to have carried them on the Lhikan II, which was wrecked.

 

There wasn't a vault on the surface of Mata Nui. If they found a vault, it would have been on the return trip through Mangaia, and they would have had to have carried them from Metru Nui anyway. 

[The 1st Shadow]

But Challenge of the Hordika clearly shows Gali breaking into the Great Temple and stealing masks and whatnots. Plus the "Makuta vault" would have been near Metru Nui, and they would have had to have carried them on the Lhikan II, which was wrecked.

 

There wasn't a vault on the surface of Mata Nui. If they found a vault, it would have been on the return trip through Mangaia, and they would have had to have carried them from Metru Nui anyway. 

I'd forgotten that bit. Perhaps they used masks from both stashes? Why would Vakama just leave masks lying around? And besides, they could have sneaked down there as Turaga (since they already knew the way) found the vault, and taken the masks to the surface, just by walking for a few hours. Likewise, they could have taken the masks from the Great Temple and stored them in the airships. However, only NOKAMA (Gali was asleep at the time, remember? ) broke into the GT, and the book never says that they went back for the masks. What with the urgency of curing their Hordika-ness and avoiding the Visorak, I doubt that was something they thought of as a priority. Plus, she also discovered the faked evidence that they were not meant to be Toa, which would have been far more prominent in her mind at the time.

 

And I said the vault was in the tunnels. Who said anything about it being on the surface? 

[fishers64]

Yeah, it was Nokama. Wrong Toa of Water.

 

 

 

At that moment, the real Nokama and Gaaki were crossing back into Le-Metru. They had successfully hidden the Masks of Power for loading on airships later.

 

I don't recall a mask vault in the tunnels of MoS. Even if they did, they would have had to transport those on the Lhikan II - they would be at the bottom of the sea, not on Mata Nui. I'm ill/tired right now, otherwise I'd start pulling Greg answers.

[The 1st Shadow]

Yeah, it was Nokama. Wrong Toa of Water.

 

 

 

At that moment, the real Nokama and Gaaki were crossing back into Le-Metru. They had successfully hidden the Masks of Power for loading on airships later.

 

I don't recall a mask vault in the tunnels of MoS. Even if they did, they would have had to transport those on the Lhikan II - they would be at the bottom of the sea, not on Mata Nui. I'm ill/tired right now, otherwise I'd start pulling Greg answers.

Oh. I stand corrected. 

 

No, not in the sea. What are you talking about? Maze of Shadows... The one where the Toa Metru walked through the very much land-based Bohrok tunnels to the silver sea? The one where Nokama nearly got killed by the Rahi Nui? Side-quest for energized protodermis? 

If you're talking seas and water, then you're thinking the previous book, Voyage of Fear.

[fishers64]

No, not in the sea. What are you talking about? Maze of Shadows... The one where the Toa Metru walked through the very much land-based Bohrok tunnels to the silver sea? The one where Nokama nearly got killed by the Rahi Nui? Side-quest for energized protodermis? 

If you're talking seas and water, then you're thinking the previous book, Voyage of Fear.

Yes, they did. Right. Then they get to the end of said tunnel, at the Great Barrier. Then they have to go from the tunnel exit across the silver sea to Metru Nui. That's in Web of the Visorak and Web of Shadows. 

[The 1st Shadow]

 

No, not in the sea. What are you talking about? Maze of Shadows... The one where the Toa Metru walked through the very much land-based Bohrok tunnels to the silver sea? The one where Nokama nearly got killed by the Rahi Nui? Side-quest for energized protodermis? 

If you're talking seas and water, then you're thinking the previous book, Voyage of Fear.

Yes, they did. Right. Then they get to the end of said tunnel, at the Great Barrier. Then they have to go from the tunnel exit across the silver sea to Metru Nui. That's in Web of the Visorak and Web of Shadows. 

 

And then they go back through the tunnels with the airships, Vakama on foot because he had to go back for the Vahi and deal with Teridax in Time Trap. Vakama, of all people, would have gone for those masks and spare disks Teridax left lying around.

[fishers64]

I now have this picture of Vakama walking up to the Toa Metru with a huge pile of disks and masks. 

 

I'm still not sure what vault you are talking about though. Today is not my day for that, it seems.

[The 1st Shadow]

I now have this picture of Vakama walking up to the Toa Metru with a huge pile of disks and masks. 

 

I'm still not sure what vault you are talking about though. Today is not my day for that, it seems.

It was very briefly mentioned. When the Metru were searching one of Teridax's lairs for the mysterious black vial that could resist the effects of EP, Vakama opened one cabinet and out spilled a bunch of masks and disks. He kept some of the disks then, because he knew they'd be useful. Odds are, if he thought the masks were worth something, then he wouldn't have let them go to waste.

[bonesiii]

 

 

The way I understand it, the Toa Mata were always destined to be sent to the 'camoflage island' created by the GSR in the event of any great disasters.

Minor "did you know" to this -- it's presumed that if the giant fell asleep while in space, they would go directly to Metru Nui. But yes, as long as it had landed, they would go to the face (apparently to make sure the Bohrok cleaned it).

 

But were the Suvas also generated my the GSR as a standard part of the camoflage process?

Pretty sure it was said that the Turaga built the Suva.

 

It seems they'd be necessary for the Toa Mata to achieve their full potential which was necessary in the 2001 arc for the overthrow of Makuta

The Great Beings didn't intend for any of that to happen -- although it's a good question anyways, since there was a chance the Toa might discover aliens (or rather natives to whatever planet they were on) on the island that would need driven off, and it's possible they would need extra power, so why didn't the GBs think of having Suva deploy?

Well, the Kini-Nui's Suva might be part of its design rather than Turaga-built, so maybe they did.

But I think the main answer is that as the GBs saw it, anything like this that the Toa would need help on could be covered by awakening the Bohrok (which they had to do anyways if they weren't already awake), and letting the Bohrok deal with the invaders.

 

Part of the BS01 page for the Suva mentions that they CONTAIN the golden kanohi though which I never realised. It always seemed to me that they just kind of wore all six masks upon finding them and cycled their powers (like a CD changer!) and that on collecting the final mask needed they would naturally obtain the golden kanohi. I don't remember the bit of the comic/story when they physically placed their 6 kanohi on the suva to obtain golden masks which would be helpful right now!

Take this part of my post with salt, as I'm foggy on it, but there were two portrayals of how they got the golden masks, and I thought the book one (at spires at the Kini-Nui) was the one confirmed canon, rather than the MNOG Suva one. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong and the Kini-Nui one used that Suva. Or something.

Either way, they wouldn't likely have been collecting masks on the island, so interesting question. Mysteries either way -- if the Koro Suva, why did the Turaga include that? If Kini-Nui, why did the GBs?

I can think of ways to solve both but too short on time to get that far into speculation.

 

And why force the Toa to work so hard for the golden masks?

The Turaga didn't trust the Toa (likely due to their own serious failures), and wanted them to prove themselves, plus they had lost many memories. Although their training itself was intact in a "muscle memory" sort of way, they probably needed that practice before they would have a chance against Makuta...

As they and the Turaga would see it; of course we know in hindsight that Makuta would fake a defeat -- who knows, though; if he sensed 'amnesia-rookie' Toa were doing badly enough even they wouldn't believe he should lose, maybe he would have gone with a contingency to defeat them (infect them or something).

 

More importantly though, where did the 30 other great kanohi come from?

Good, I thought the topic would be about this when I saw the title and thought "easy answer, probably everybody's already done it but might as well check". Wasn't planning on some trickier questions. Anywho... yeah, I'll wait to answer until I read on to see if it would be Ninja'd.

*does* *sees that the quick answer is taking a while to surface* *decides to say it anyways*

The Turaga did (as Toa), presumably for the sake of the future generation of Toa they thought, at the time, would be made by the Toa Stones they also hid (but that actually only summoned the Toa Mata when Takua collected them a thousand years later).

Probably Vakama got vague visions as to which masks to bring (of Great level; they were bringing many extra masks anyways for replacements for the Matoran), which may have become clearer as the Mata's arrival neared.

 

They need to be made, or at least hidden, by a physical being rather than a planet sized robot's failsafe programming.

Eh, random teleportation of things is possible. I've used that in my fanfics. Or the Order hiding things to give the Toa extra practice. We know this isn't the case as events happened, but it's possible that had something like what the GBs might have envisioned happened, and the Bohrok alone weren't enough, maybe the Order/Artakha would teleport masks to the island.

Actually, we do know Artakha did, for the Kanohi Nuva, so that's actually quite plausible.

 

Also if the golden masks were inside the Suvas, why go around collecting 6 masks and putting them on to open it when you can just break into the suva and take the gold one?

I think the answer about time needed for practice applies here. Note that the book portrayal seemed less clearly a "stored physically" thing and more of a materialization, but sprinkle some salt on this one too.

 

Also if they brought copies of their own masks as well, why not bring the Great versions?

Good question -- if they had, they would have been able to easily tell the future Toa what the powers were and save them time that the Toa Metru lost trying to figure it out. My guess is the vague visions idea is part of the answer, plus they probably felt the chances of the destined Matoran's masks happening to match theirs was slim, and the ones they did bring are the other six of the most common shapes. And maybe because of their commonness, at least one of them might have actually known what the powers were.

 

Also what happened to the airships they used to fly themselves and the Matoran there?

[Part of answer cut in light of being Ninja'd.] The glass window you see in the underwater hut in Ga-Koro is probably from the airship windows. We don't see much other examples of those materials, but this was a thousand years ago and there were tons of Rahi attacks since then, so who knows how much of what we saw is original, plus they didn't show most of it (and the animators didn't know this detail anyways).

 

Perhaps they realized they would have to become Turaga

They definitely knew it was a possibility since they'd seen it happen with Lhikan, but this brings up another good question -- since they didn't know for sure, why not bring more Greats of their type for however long a time it took?

Possibly they knew just from basic Bionicle physics that they would have to spend Toa Energy to awaken the Matoran, but I forget how that decision was made. The movie fits this easily; they move to do that as if it's the most obvious solution in the world, but I wouldn't take that too seriously; the animators wouldn't necessarily know whether or not it was common knowledge in-story. Book might make it clearer.

Another possibility -- they realized they weren't actually huge fans of those powers. Maybe they wanted to keep them as their main masks since they knew people saw them as their faces, but for their extras, wanted the ones they ended up hiding.

Yet another, although statistically this is unlikely, is that's what happened to be available in the Great Temple.

 

The Kanohi came from Makuta, actually. Go back and read Maze of Shadows. The Toa Metru find a vault filled with great masks and assorted disks. These masks were Teridax's attempt at making Kanohi, supposedly so he could try to make the Vahi himself. However, he lacked the skill for it, so he resorted to Vakama, but his many attempts still remained in a secret vault near one of his lairs. The Toa Metru then took these masks and hid them all over the island.

>__>

<__<

 

I have no memory of this.

*ahem* Seriously, don't recall that. Can somebody confirm?

I am reasonably sure Greg at some point said the masks came from the Great Temple... so... wuzzup with this...

'Course, maybe that was just the Matoran backup masks. Makuta wouldn't have been making unpowered masks there, so that would make sense... hrm...

 

As for the Nuvas... I have no idea. Did they have to search for them as well?

Yes. As for why... uh... I dunno, maybe Artakha didn't care about that. But probably a repeat of the practice reason.

 

they would have had to have carried them on the Lhikan II, which was wrecked.

Rightly...

 

And besides, they could have sneaked down there as Turaga

Long journey as Toa = even longer as Turaga, and during the year of peace they needed to spend every moment directing the building of defenses. Plus I think they sealed that tunnel before then, to prevent more Rahi from coming up that way.

 

No, not in the sea. What are you talking about?

M'believe fishers was just summarizing the previous post and assumed that was clear enough -- and meant they sunk when the Lhikan II crashed. However, it crashed on a beach, so I think it's more relevant that they'd either be smashed, or (since the ones on the Toa's faces weren't) buried under rubble and not worth the effort.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

No, not in the sea. What are you talking about?

M'believe fishers was just summarizing the previous post and assumed that was clear enough -- and meant they sunk when the Lhikan II crashed. However, it crashed on a beach, so I think it's more relevant that they'd either be smashed, or (since the ones on the Toa's faces weren't) buried under rubble and not worth the effort.

 

Why would they be in the sea if they were left in the vault for later? Vakama took the disks, but it never says he took the masks with them then. If he did go back for them, then that would imply that they were left there to begin with, and never were on the Lhikan II. See? 

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Reading all of this makes me want to read Bionicle Adventures. How do they hold up when compared to Bionicle Legends?

Edited March 12, 2015 by Iaredios

[fishers64]

I went the through the entirety of Maze of Shadows, and the only thing I found was Onewa's vault with the vial, but there was no mention that it contained any disks or masks. 
 
I checked the beginning of Web of the Visorak and Voyage of Fear as well.
 
However, you might be thinking of this...?
 

Long tables lined both of the walls, littered with Kanoka disks, fragments of ancient tablets, and other artifacts.

 
That's when Vakama entered "Makuta's lair" in his illusion. He even throws a Kanoka disk at "Nokama's" head. The real lair also has a disk, which Vakama tries to grab in the next sequence.

 

EDIT: Also Vakama raids a vault in his own lab when he comes back to Metru Nui as a Hordika, which is another vault...

Edited March 12, 2015 by fishers64

[Munty]

Wow what a lot of posts  

 

I have many more thoughts on this but it's late here so I'll just add a few more questions...

 

Why would the Turaga be so bothered about bringing all these extra masks to Mata Nui that they'd go on these difficult journeys to do it? Even if they WERE still in Metru form (I'm finding it hard to keep track of the various opinions and have never read the books) it would've been a lot of work for essentially no reason. The only thing that makes sense is that Vakama had a vision and so knew exactly what to do but that seems like a really lazy get out of jail free move (something Gen1 used too much!) 

 

Also, how did they know which 6 kanohi the Toa would need as we know they came with one each when they arrived so it's pretty lucky the Turaga found the right ones isn't it? Unless we go with the vision thing again which I'd rather not!

 

I think Fishers or Bonesii mentioned that maybe only the Kini Nui Suva was part of the GSR which could make sense. Then perhaps the Turaga and Matoran found it and saw it as a shrine (or the turaga recognised it's significance having seen one before in the great temple) so each Koro built their own in preparation for the Toa. This would also tie in with the golden masks being received at the Kini Nui Suva but I forget the various tellings of this part of the story. What about the nuva symbols too? I forget where they were, on the Koro suvas weren't they? If so that would take some explaining...

 

About Artakh. He made the Golden masks??? Is that what's being said or did I misunderstand as that seems like a pretty important point to elaborate on! If he made the Nuva masks (is this accurate too?) then it makes sense he had a hand in making the golden one too as essentially the golden kanohi WERE the first nuva masks, simply before their descent into energised protodermis... If he made all the Nuva kanohi though and zapped them to hidden spots on the island (another get out of jail free move!) then that makes sense. It COULD also eplain how the gold masks were inside the Koro suvas if that's the more canon depiction of the event as he could of zapped them there too (for some reason!) Perhaps he was responsible for the Nuva stones too? Hey, maybe Artakh was responsible for the entire Suva system!

 

And while we're on Suvas... BS01 said that the walls of the GSR prevented access to the Toa Mata/Nuva's suva. Not sure why this matters as they NEVER use different masks once they get their adaptive armour IIRC but BS01 goes on to say that the SUVA were moved out of the MU and onto Spherus Magna after the reforming. How is that possible when the island they were on was destroyed waaaay before they got back to spherus magna and had a chance to move them? It almost suggests they're a part of the GSRs system after all but that wouldn't make sense with the whole GSR wall thing as then they would be outside the MU in the first place. Wait, actually it already doesn't make sense... The Toa should have full access to the Suva on Spherus Magna if they're like little pimples outside of the MU as it's supposedly the walls that prevent their use. Can anyone verify this information???

 

And finally (I think) it keeps coming up that the Turaga hid the masks so that only a Toa could find them. I'd suggest if a Turaga can get there then so could most matoran. Or are we saying they retrieved and hid the masks while still Toa Metru? Either way I find the whole 'they brought them along just in case' theory very lazy if it's true. It just doesn't make sense. Why bring them? Why hide them? And how did they know which ones to bring? I just get the feeling it's got to boil down to 'Vakama had a vision so that's why everything' which is not a very satisfying conclusion

[fishers64]

There were Suva inside the GSR. Remember the Suva inside the Great Temple that was shown in the LoMN movie?
 
Alright, Greg Answer-pulling time: 
 

1) When Great Masks are made, or even noble ones, are they given to turaga dume, the toa, or since there are few toa and turaga, do they not even know that those masks have powers?

They know they have powers, because mask-makers know what power level disk they used to make them. They are probably stored if not needed, most likely someplace like the Great Temple.
 
Speaking of Suvas, do the Toa Metru have Suvas? Do they need them?
 
4) At present, the Toa Metru do not. There is a Toa suva in the Great Temple. But since the Metru are not collecting masks, they really do not need individual suva.
 
4. Why ARE the matoran making so many masks? Yes, there's Lhikan and Dume who can wear them, but with a maximum of 36 powers (16 of which we've seen as masks), that would mean 72 masks would be enough for everyone who could wear them. Yet there seem to be many matoran continually making masks, presumably with 2/9ths of them great and noble. What do they do with the extras?
 
Keep in mind that there are very few mask makers, and that the Great and Noble masks they have made have been made over hundreds of years. Great and Noble masks are not made very often. Matoran masks are because masks get damaged and/or new Matoran come into being that need masks. Matoran masks are sent to Po-Metru, and Great and Noble Masks are stored in the Great Temple.
 
Can Matoran on Metru Nui make a new Suva for a new Toa? Or are they more mysterious than that?

Good question. I will say yes, because I do not believe the Mata Nui suva existed until the Matoran built the koro. 
 
3. you told me that there are various storyline and marketing reasons for the toa metru not using/collecting other masks. i was just wondering, are there mor)e toa metru masks that they could use if they found them?

3) Yes. Great Masks are kept stored in the Great Temple.

 
Alright, I need something more direct. Point is there were a bunch of them. 
 

1. On the new Guide Book site, it says that a shipment of Great Masks mysteriously disappeared en route to the Great Temple. Will these become important later on?

1) Maybe )  
 
3. Were the stolen great masks that the Metru Nui Ministry of Tourism reports were never found the same great masks that were hidden on Mata Nui for the "original" Toa? (This is in the "Matoran Underworld" section, under "Thefts." It says: "The most serious theft to date occurred very recently, when a shipment of Great Masks going from Ta-Metru to Ga-Metru disappeared en route. The thieves were never caught and the whereabouts of the masks remain unknown.")


ANSWER: No. The masks the Toa Metru brought to Mata Nui were taken from the Great Temple by them during the 2005 storyline.

888 97 hundred. 

[The 1st Shadow]

I went the through the entirety of Maze of Shadows, and the only thing I found was Onewa's vault with the vial, but there was no mention that it contained any disks or masks. 

 

I checked the beginning of Web of the Visorak and Voyage of Fear as well.

 

However, you might be thinking of this...?

 

Long tables lined both of the walls, littered with Kanoka disks, fragments of ancient tablets, and other artifacts.

 

That's when Vakama entered "Makuta's lair" in his illusion. He even throws a Kanoka disk at "Nokama's" head. The real lair also has a disk, which Vakama tries to grab in the next sequence.

 

EDIT: Also Vakama raids a vault in his own lab when he comes back to Metru Nui as a Hordika, which is another vault...

Seriously? Maybe it was in the beginning of Web of the Visorak, then. The part where the Metru went in search of parts for a transport, and Vakama encountered the Fire Entity.

 

I thought for sure it was Maze of Shadows, though. The wording that followed went something along the lines of:

 

It seemed that Makuta had tried his hand at mask-making, Vakama thought.

 

 

 

You're sure that part was nowhere in there? Really?

 

 

 

So, it appears I've been corrected by the word of the GregMan. But it still leaves those masks lying around in some abandoned tunnel somewhere...

Edited March 12, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[fishers64]

I couldn't find it. I found the "Makuta has a fondness for...masks" quote, but that was in talking to Karzplant, not in vault-finding.

[The 1st Shadow]

I couldn't find it. I found the "Makuta has a fondness for...masks" quote, but that was in talking to Karzplant, not in vault-finding.

I'll read through it later tonight, see if it's where I think it is. If not, then I may be thinking of a part near the beginning of WotV.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I thought Nokama and Gaaki were tasked with retrieving the masks from the great Suva in Challenge of the Hordika. The decision to hide the Kanohi was to ensure the Toa learned what a true struggle is, how to learn and grow from experiences and work as a team. I assume Vakama was probably told which masks would be necessary for the mask hunt when he got that vision about future Toa in Maze of Shadows. Also, I'm a little confused about the Suva's as well cause I thought they were natural parts of the island. 

 

-NotS

[The 1st Shadow]

Also, I'm a little confused about the Suva's as well cause I thought they were natural parts of the island. 

 

-NotS

Toa all over the MU used Suvas. A suva is a shrine built in honor of Toa, and they double as mask and weapon storage. Being shrines, they are built by Matoran and/or Turaga. If they were parts of the island, then the Toa Metru would have been forced to build the villages around them.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Wow what a lot of posts

 

I have many more thoughts on this but it's late here so I'll just add a few more questions...

 

Why would the Turaga be so bothered about bringing all these extra masks to Mata Nui that they'd go on these difficult journeys to do it? Even if they WERE still in Metru form (I'm finding it hard to keep track of the various opinions and have never read the books) it would've been a lot of work for essentially no reason. The only thing that makes sense is that Vakama had a vision and so knew exactly what to do but that seems like a really lazy get out of jail free move (something Gen1 used too much!) 

 

Also, how did they know which 6 kanohi the Toa would need as we know they came with one each when they arrived so it's pretty lucky the Turaga found the right ones isn't it? Unless we go with the vision thing again which I'd rather not!

 

I think Fishers or Bonesii mentioned that maybe only the Kini Nui Suva was part of the GSR which could make sense. Then perhaps the Turaga and Matoran found it and saw it as a shrine (or the turaga recognised it's significance having seen one before in the great temple) so each Koro built their own in preparation for the Toa. This would also tie in with the golden masks being received at the Kini Nui Suva but I forget the various tellings of this part of the story. What about the nuva symbols too? I forget where they were, on the Koro suvas weren't they? If so that would take some explaining...

 

About Artakh. He made the Golden masks??? Is that what's being said or did I misunderstand as that seems like a pretty important point to elaborate on! If he made the Nuva masks (is this accurate too?) then it makes sense he had a hand in making the golden one too as essentially the golden kanohi WERE the first nuva masks, simply before their descent into energised protodermis... If he made all the Nuva kanohi though and zapped them to hidden spots on the island (another get out of jail free move!) then that makes sense. It COULD also eplain how the gold masks were inside the Koro suvas if that's the more canon depiction of the event as he could of zapped them there too (for some reason!) Perhaps he was responsible for the Nuva stones too? Hey, maybe Artakh was responsible for the entire Suva system!

 

And while we're on Suvas... BS01 said that the walls of the GSR prevented access to the Toa Mata/Nuva's suva. Not sure why this matters as they NEVER use different masks once they get their adaptive armour IIRC but BS01 goes on to say that the SUVA were moved out of the MU and onto Spherus Magna after the reforming. How is that possible when the island they were on was destroyed waaaay before they got back to spherus magna and had a chance to move them? It almost suggests they're a part of the GSRs system after all but that wouldn't make sense with the whole GSR wall thing as then they would be outside the MU in the first place. Wait, actually it already doesn't make sense... The Toa should have full access to the Suva on Spherus Magna if they're like little pimples outside of the MU as it's supposedly the walls that prevent their use. Can anyone verify this information???

 

And finally (I think) it keeps coming up that the Turaga hid the masks so that only a Toa could find them. I'd suggest if a Turaga can get there then so could most matoran. Or are we saying they retrieved and hid the masks while still Toa Metru? Either way I find the whole 'they brought them along just in case' theory very lazy if it's true. It just doesn't make sense. Why bring them? Why hide them? And how did they know which ones to bring? I just get the feeling it's got to boil down to 'Vakama had a vision so that's why everything' which is not a very satisfying conclusion

 

Destiny is the last of the Three Virtues, and predestination and prophecy play an important part in Bionicle. Why are you so reluctant to accept the use of this story mechanic? Obviously, just because you are destined to do something doesn't mean you have to follow it (free-will and all), as time is a series of rivers that empty into other rivers and so on and so forth. Vakama had messages of what was to come, so like the numerous Matoran markings seen throughout Mata Nui, he had visions and acted upon them. He saw Metru Nui becoming ruined, the travels of Takua, and the coming of the Toa, it is only natural that he acted upon what he saw and took masks with him and his friends and placed them in areas that would prove the Toa's worth (they had heard of the tales of fallen heroes of old, like Tuyet, and witnessed at least two, Nidhiki and Vakama), and so wanted to make a precaution with destiny just in case it didn't work out as they thought it would (in Star Wars think about Anakin and the legend of the Chosen One, he fulfilled his destiny in a way none of them imagined by leaving Luke being the last force user, a grey one at that _{^{(this is just off of the movies, no Expanded Universe or spin-offs)}}) by making the first quests for their masks a test of their worth. It all actually sounds a lot like the basic plot for some ancient legends, just like a lot of Bionicle plots' basic outlines (especially the exile of Mata Nui).

 

I think when Artakha made the initial Golden Masks they may have been powerless but designed to be able to store multiple powers, but the Mata-Nui Kini-Nui has some sort of device to allow the creation of multi-powered kanohi when it has been supplied with six different kanohi, which drains the powers out of the masks into that one that was already there. Notice how i said 'I think...", implying that this is a personal theory and I have no idea if it is or could be canon or not. The hiding of the kanohi Nuva was a way to let the Toa test out their new-found abilities and strengthen their bonds, valor, wisdom, and faith over what was already there ^{(it would seem that  this training was for naught, as after just listening to Turaga tales for a couple of weeks they had forgotten this training exercise and had their behinds handed to them by a certain group of Skakdi)}. Yeah, Artakha also made the Kanohi Nuva and teleported them to where an Order of Mata Nui member found most appropriate ^{(he was killed by Makuta Teridax just afterwards and later Vezon used the OoMN member's toa canister the  used to get to Voya Nui, which the Piraka followed him soon afterwards and used the Toa Mata's canisters)}. Not sure what Nuva stones are, do you mean the Toa Nuva symbols? And i am pretty sure that the Great Beings made the blue prints for the original suva.

 

First, there were the original Toa Suvas on Mata-Nui made by either to Toa Metru or Turaga Mata. Then, after the Bohrok-Kal attacks the Toa Nuva relocated their suvas to an undisclosed location. After going over to Metru Nui the Toa Nuva and maybe Takua would create new secret suvas around Metru-Nui. After the Battle of Bara Magna, every Toa in the Matoran Universe moved relocated their suvas to locations of their choosing on Spherus Magna. I hope I was able to clear things up.

 

I apologize if you find the use of predestination to be unsatisfying. But, that's one of the key elements of Bionicle. It stems from goals/destinies set by the Great Beings and installed into the skybox of the Matoran Universe, however i find that a larger force is at hand as that would explain the spirit stars and the use of star-observing astrological prophecies outside of the Matoran Universe, where everything is computerized; not to mention how Teridax unwillingly achieved his destiny in helping Mata Nui restore Spherus Magna.

[bonesiii]

 

 

Why would the Turaga be so bothered about bringing all these extra masks to Mata Nui that they'd go on these difficult journeys to do it? Even if they WERE still in Metru form (I'm finding it hard to keep track of the various opinions and have never read the books) it would've been a lot of work for essentially no reason.

Not sure if you're talking about what was confirmed (or what I thought was), or the Maze of Shadows idea -- but barring the latter for now, there was no difficult journey. After the Visorak were dealt with, they loaded up the airships with everything that didn't weigh too much, and getting masks stored in the Great Temple would be no difficulty. It would involve a trip, but nothing compared to building the airships in the first place, and possibly they even took an airship to get there.

As for why:

-Powerless masks -- because maskmaking equipment was too heavy to bring and they thought the Matoran might have to survive there for a while. If a Matoran loses their mask or it breaks, they fall into a coma. And without sustenance (or some kind of life sustaining device as they may have had in Metru Nui?), they would eventually die.

-Noble -- They themselves might become Turaga and need powers to help defend against whatever Makuta might throw at them.

-Great -- They left Toa Stones around the island and presumed that six Matoran would become Toa like they did, and collect these masks to help defend the villages and pave the way for the return to Metru Nui.

All of these are well worth taking whatever time and effort required, as long as it's before the Matoran awake (which is my problem with the "later trip to a vault" idea).

 

The only thing that makes sense is that Vakama had a vision and so knew exactly what to do but that seems like a really lazy get out of jail free move

First, the only reason the Vakama vision explanation might be needed that I recall is in picking WHICH Great masks to bring.

Second, it is by no means lazy, and that is a myth that really, really needs to die. It depends on the genre of story you want to tell, and Bionicle established that it was the vision type in 2001. Vakama simply carried on the tradition (and he'd been depicted as seeming to have visions, albeit more controlled, in 2003 at least, and I think a bit in MNOG). Stories that have a rule against them yet are still fantasy are pretty fun too -- but if you prefer one over the other, that's a matter of taste, not laziness. Actually, telling a story involving visions can be harder work because you have to plan for the future more than otherwise (I've done it and am still writing one so I know ).

 

If he made all the Nuva kanohi though and zapped them to hidden spots on the island (another get out of jail free move!)

A secretive being teleporting objects he made to a place where he has an investment in what the heroes there do isn't a get out of jail free move. Things like that happen all the time in real life (minus the teleporting part ). Plus, he didn't make it "free" for them anyways, as they had to work hard to search for them (in that case). It's important to understand the concept of a "free" move so you don't apply it wrongly like that...

Yes, Artakha made the Nuva cube/symbols, if memory serves... None of which count as "free" cards either, since it makes sense he would have experimented with dipping masks in EP, and definitely wanted Mata Nui awakened, and if we was teleporting Nuva masks, he would probably have contingencies for in case there were problems with Nuva power in general, especially if the Mask of Creation informed him of how that would work. And again the Toa had to work when given these things (cube didn't get them everything they wanted, just sustained their power and enabled unlocking the cage, which in the story itself turned out to be a bad thing at the time, and symbols could be stolen).

And out of time for now.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Toa all over the MU used Suvas. A suva is a shrine built in honor of Toa, and they double as mask and weapon storage. Being shrines, they are built by Matoran and/or Turaga. If they were parts of the island, then the Toa Metru would have been forced to build the villages around them.

 

That makes sense. Thanks for clearing this up for me!

 

-NotS

[bonesiii]

Continuing from where I left off...

 

And while we're on Suvas... BS01 said that the walls of the GSR prevented access to the Toa Mata/Nuva's suva.

Hm... Are you sure this isn't confused (either by you or BS01) with the Karda Nui shields preventing most teleportation? Because I recall this being said about mask-switching through those shields, but I don't recall it about the hull.

It would make sense, though.

 

Not sure why this matters as they NEVER use different masks once they get their adaptive armour IIRC but BS01 goes on to say that the SUVA were moved out of the MU and onto Spherus Magna after the reforming. How is that possible when the island they were on was destroyed waaaay before they got back to spherus magna and had a chance to move them?

Which Suva? I would presume that's talking about the ones inside the MU, like the one in the Great Temple.

Not sure what became of the Mata Nui island ones, incidentally. They might have brought them along with them, although that would probably be heavy cargo for carrying down those tunnels... (Maybe Onua carried one... =D Or each Toa carrying theirs with shared-power/collected Nuva Pakari... except Tahu's was destroyed when Ta-Koro was.)

 

And finally (I think) it keeps coming up that the Turaga hid the masks so that only a Toa could find them.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. They hid them so that rookie Toa could gain experience finding them. That much we know, but what's in this quote goes beyond that (and several were guarded by infected Rahi, so I doubt it).

It's possible it's a rumor that's developed over the years. I seem to vaguely recall a topic or two about it back in the day but don't recall what was said.

 

I'd suggest if a Turaga can get there then so could most matoran.

I was under the impression they hid them as Toa, like when they hid the Toa Stones as Toa. I suppose I'm not 100% sure offhand though...

But as far as I know it's very possible they hid them as Turaga too. (And the "only Toa can reach" thing would be a myth, then. Actually, I don't know what "only a Toa can reach" would even be. Pretty any place can be reached given the right amount of time, patience, equipment, etc.)

 

Either way I find the whole 'they brought them along just in case' theory very lazy if it's true

I strongly suggest refraining from this "finding details lazy" approach. It's best to try to understand the story as-is, and not take the possibility of a few oversights as evidence of laziness (let alone "very" lazy ) -- especially given that it was written in a relative hurry for a toyline. Which isn't to say it's okay to be lazy, but rather it actually can be a LOT of work to make a story this complex that's even halfway consistent!

In other words, finding one possible problem doesn't mean that avoiding it was even remotely within the reasonable realm of human capability in the time alotted.

 

It just doesn't make sense. Why bring them? Why hide them?

These parts do make sense and were answered earlier, though you might have missed it, so repeating in brief -- the powered ones they brought so that future Toa could have a reason to practice without being tempted (much) to try to take on Makuta directly and lose miserably. Given the Turaga's history, and that this is a character-based story not a plot-based, that makes complete sense.

 

And how did they know which ones to bring? I just get the feeling it's got to boil down to 'Vakama had a vision so that's why everything' which is not a very satisfying conclusion

I don't know why it hasn't occurred to me until now*, but there is another simple explanation. The Toa Mata existed long before this, and the Order knew that, and would know where they would appear... so could have influenced the Toa Metru to pick those masks.

*Probably because I like the idea of Vakama having vague visions of Toa wearing those masks and thinking "Hey, maybe that one's Jaller, that one's Hahli" etc. and only gradually realizing it's the Toa Mata as time wore on and the visions became clearer.

 

Destiny is the last of the Three Virtues, and predestination and prophecy play an important part in Bionicle. Why are you so reluctant to accept the use of this story mechanic?

Agreed. I run into this from time to time... My guess is it's a genre preference thing. People with that taste like some of the "genre ingredients" in Bionicle, but just don't happen to like that one.

Many confuse this preference with actually being the definition of quality. The fact that it's one of the big three really should be a clue, though, that people can and do see it as a major and valid principle for fiction. Fiction is, after all, about exploring the unknown through imagination.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Not sure why this matters as they NEVER use different masks once they get their adaptive armour IIRC but BS01 goes on to say that the SUVA were moved out of the MU and onto Spherus Magna after the reforming. How is that possible when the island they were on was destroyed waaaay before they got back to spherus magna and had a chance to move them?

 

Which Suva? I would presume that's talking about the ones inside the MU, like the one in the Great Temple.

 

Not sure what became of the Mata Nui island ones, incidentally. They might have brought them along with them, although that would probably be heavy cargo for carrying down those tunnels... (Maybe Onua carried one... =D Or each Toa carrying theirs with shared-power/collected Nuva Pakari... except Tahu's was destroyed when Ta-Koro was.)

 

 

And finally (I think) it keeps coming up that the Turaga hid the masks so that only a Toa could find them.

 

I'm not sure where this is coming from. They hid them so that rookie Toa could gain experience finding them. That much we know, but what's in this quote goes beyond that (and several were guarded by infected Rahi, so I doubt it).

 

It's possible it's a rumor that's developed over the years. I seem to vaguely recall a topic or two about it back in the day but don't recall what was said.

 

First things first, the Nuva masks share powers. All Tahu had to do was walk next to Onua or anyone else with a Pakari and he would have been fine.

 

Second, the Turaga DID hide the masks. Sure, they may have done it as Toa, shortly before awakening all the Matoran, but we know they hid them. As fishers corrected me on, the Metru took masks from the GT and brought them on their journey to the island of Mata Nui in the airships. Exactly when and how the Kanohi were hidden is still unknown. Also, Teridax had a thousand years to locate the masks and set his rahi to guard them, making it that much harder for the Toa to acquire them.

 

Just in case that needed clearing up.

 

Oh, and...

 

Pretty any place can be reached given the right amount of time, patience, equipment, etc.)

 

 

Unless, of course, it's a room with a lock that can only be opened by the application of Toa Power.

Edited March 13, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[fishers64]

 

Pretty any place can be reached given the right amount of time, patience, equipment, etc.)

 

 

Unless, of course, it's a room with a lock that can only be opened by the application of Toa Power.

 

*insert Dark Hunter legion with huge battering ram here* 

 

 

Or they could just...dig around the door. 

 

Welp, okay, if it was an honest-to-goodness Toa seal, maybe not. But then again, kidnapping some Toa (or just tricking them into opening the door) is a feasible endeavor for most evil factions the robot over.