More Than One of Each Legendary Kanohi? (G1)

[Votuko]

Quick couple of questions that have been bugging me recently:

 

1) Is there some sort of rule that stops there from being more than one of a particular Legendary Kanohi in existence at one time?

 

I ask because I have seen some people talk as if it is accepted fact that only one of each legendary mask is possible to exist, stating dubious reasons such as "it fully embodies a legendary aspect so only one can exist". However, I see no confirmation of that on BS01 and have not been able to find a Greg quote on the issue.

 

2) If the answer to 1) is yes, what would happen if you tried to create a duplicate Legendary Mask?

 

For example it seems reasonable to think that, theoretically, Artakha could create a second set of Great Kanoka, identical to the ones he made before. Would they still be able to fuse into a Disk of Time, as the original set was designed to do, or would some sort of "destiny" effect kick in to stop the disks successfully fusing? (BS01 says that damaging the Disk of Time would have the same effect as damaging the Vahi, so I think even making a new Disk of Time would violate a no-duplicate-Legendaries rule, if one exists.)

 

I'd be interested to see what views you have on these things, or whether you know of any Greg quotes that contain the answers.

 

 

SIDE NOTE: I was thinking that it would be interesting if the G2 "danger of combining six elements" is because that is the (G2) method for producing legendary masks. The MoUP could be what results when you try to produce a legendary mask when all possible legendary masks already exist.

(Or maybe the MoUP is an unstable "half-Vahi", produced because the G1 Vahi (aka G2 Mask of Time) is only half a legendary mask, so there was "universe budget" for one more half-mask to be produced. Oops - slipped a continuation theory in there - I can't help myself .)

Edited March 13, 2015 by Xelphene

[SPIRIT]

The three Legendary masks are the masks of Time, Creation, and Life; the former being made by Vakama and the latter two bring made by the Great Beings. Unlike normal masks, these embody fundamental forces within the Mata Nui robot and are probably very difficult (if not impossible) to duplicate.

 

If memory serves, Greg has said in the past that versions of said masks from alternate universes would not function in the same way (i.e. destruction of reality if broken.)

 

Hypothetically speaking, I'm not sure what would happen if you could somehow make a second copy in-universe, but I can't imagine it would end well. I'd expect either the power to be halved between the two masks or for that fundamental force to be doubled within the Mata Nui robot.

[Jacks]

The best way I've found to articulate is as follows:

 

Great and Noble Kanohi are like batteries. They create and/or store power. Let's take, for instance, the Mask of Speed. When it is activated, it makes the wearer faster by its own innate power. If it's damaged, it stops working.

 

Legendary Kanohi are not batteries, but conduits for energies of an entirely different order of magnitude. Let's use the Vahi as an example here. The Vahi is connected to the flow of time in the entire MU. It is not generating its own power, like a Kakama would, but rather grabbing the fabric of Time itself and yanking on it. This is why it creates distortions when damaged, rather than shutting down. Likewise, the Ignika is permanently tapped into the life of the Great Spirit and everything within it. Creation is a bit harder to explain, but if the analogy works for Time and Life, I can accept it as well.

 

_{None of this is canon, necessarily, although I've seen nothing that directly contradicts it}

 

So the reason there can only be one Mask of Time within the GSR is that you can't have the fabric of Time pulled in multiple directions (as we've seen, time in Bionicle is not particularly flexible). Artakha could make six new Great Discs, but if one were to fuse them and try to forge a new Vahi, either the old one would shut down, or the new one would not work at all. And that's just within the GSR -- you could make a new Mask of Time outside the robot, but you'd have to make it a conduit for the fabric of Time everywhere in the universe, and there's probably nobody with the willpower necessary to make a mask like that work.

[RahiSpeak]

I think Junkbot's interpretation is about as good as you will get, but I do have an addition to it concerning the Mask of Creation.

 

All of the minds within the MU, including the MU itself, are artificial. If the Mask of Creation were simply to tap in to such resources as Mata Nui's memories or a matoran's experiences then the ability to create anything an MU resident can imagine would come easy.

[fishers64]

I'm pretty sure that the Ignika, Vahi, and Mask of Creation all work outside of the Matoran Universe, however. The Ignika in particular has multiple instances of extra-MU operation. I think that would kick that theory out. 
 
My running theory is that if you have two Legendary Masks in close proximity, the second one would explode from too much of its own energy in an area, though, so I'm not sure. 
 
Time for a Greg hunt.
 

2. From what I've heard, the Vahi and Mask of Life are two examples of "Legendary Masks", one-of-a-kind masks with immense power.

a.) Is this an accurate definition of "Legendary Mask"?

b.) It was recently speculated that there are four other "Legendary Masks" scatered about the universe which would make a grand total of *gasp:* six masks in all. Is this a plausible theory at all? 
 
2) Yes, and no.

 
Huh. I'm not finding what I'm looking for.
 

8)Since the Voporak has powers that relate to the Mask of Time, I'm guessing that there have been Masks of Time before the one Vakama created. Is this correct? And if so, did the look the same as the Vahi we know?   
 
     
 
  8) No, actually, Voporak was given his powers in anticipation of the fact that someday a Vahi would be created. The only Vahi ever in existence is the one Vakama made.
 
2: Has Arthaka ever tried to make a mask of Time.
 
2) No. You need the six Great Disks to do that, and he didn't have them.
 
10) Is it possible for there ever to be multiple Masks of Time?
 
10) I don't think so, since there aren't other Great Disks to make one from. 
 
2. Why did the Great Beings create only Mask of Creation and make Artakha and Karzahni battle for the mask if they could have made two Masks of Creation?
 
2) Maybe they didn't feel that two were needed. You know, any artist will tell you it is easier to work on your own than to have to collaborate with someone and deal with their creative instincts which might not be the same as your own.

Yeah, I'm not finding what I'm looking for. Could have been a topic on the old forum that I don't have access to, though you'd think that if it was, Greg would stop using other excuses.

[Archon~]

I think the last answer sort of implied that the power would be halved if 2 were created. I personally think that if you brought another Ignika from an AU you would just have another conduit who's power is able to tap into half of the power of the MU since there would be 2 Ignikas in that universe then.

Also, speaking of the fact that Ignika is able to act outaide of MU, I think that occurs because it is able to both generate power and be intertwined with MU lifeforce, which it still is on SM since the population is residing there.

I pretty much agree with what Spirit and Junkbot said.

[Jacks]

I'm pretty sure that the Ignika, Vahi, and Mask of Creation all work outside of the Matoran Universe, however. The Ignika in particular has multiple instances of extra-MU operation. I think that would kick that theory out.

I don't think that "designed for use within the MU" necessitates "nonfunctional outside the MU" -- we've also had an instance of extra-MU Vahi operation, and I have a memory of Greg confirming that the Legendary Kanohi functioned outside the MU, just not at their full potential power level (granted, I also have a memory of Greg saying it would be 100% physically impossible to have doubles of any Legendary Kanohi within the MU and I might be wrong about that? who knows)

 

What I think is interesting is that most of the instances of extra-MU Legendary Mask use were very close to the MU exterior -- probably close enough to still latch onto the fundamental forces at work in the interior. Ignika on Bara Magna is a fun loophole, since it's tied to the life of Mata Nui, and surprise! guess who's inside it

so: what's going to happen now that the GSR is toast and Mata Nui is dormant? I'm guessing that the power of the Legendary Kanohi might just fade away

[Tuuli]

 

I'm pretty sure that the Ignika, Vahi, and Mask of Creation all work outside of the Matoran Universe, however. The Ignika in particular has multiple instances of extra-MU operation. I think that would kick that theory out.

I don't think that "designed for use within the MU" necessitates "nonfunctional outside the MU" -- we've also had an instance of extra-MU Vahi operation, and I have a memory of Greg confirming that the Legendary Kanohi functioned outside the MU, just not at their full potential power level (granted, I also have a memory of Greg saying it would be 100% physically impossible to have doubles of any Legendary Kanohi within the MU and I might be wrong about that? who knows)

 

What I think is interesting is that most of the instances of extra-MU Legendary Mask use were very close to the MU exterior -- probably close enough to still latch onto the fundamental forces at work in the interior. Ignika on Bara Magna is a fun loophole, since it's tied to the life of Mata Nui, and surprise! guess who's inside it

so: what's going to happen now that the GSR is toast and Mata Nui is dormant? I'm guessing that the power of the Legendary Kanohi might just fade away

That would be a sad, almost peaceful ending...

[Jacks]

Sadly fitting, too, given that we also know that all the MU species are doomed to eventual extinction since the GSR contained the only means of producing more of them.

[Votuko]

I don't think we have any evidence that the Legendary masks actually require the MU to function.

 

Effects like the slowing of time in the MU itself imply that there is a universal ability to slow time, because the MU is still a subset of the larger universe. No amount of giant robot could make time-slowing possible if it is against the laws of physics for the universe, so what is possible on Mata Nui should be possible on Spherus Magna.

 

Also, we have been told that the Legendary Kanohi channel their particular universal aspect, so connecting to the GSR to get power of some sort would seem to contradict that. Also, wasn't the Mask of Creation made before the MU was functioning?

(Just to mention, I think the Ignika universe-destruct countdown was an added feature by the GBs, like the Golden Armour plans. ie An "unmodified" Ignika would not care if some Great Spirit or other were dying.)

 

 

Personally, I think that the Legendary Kanohi must work by channeling a universal aspect; something that the GBs discovered, not invented. It would be similar to elemental control, which doesn't require the MU or any additional technology, so must exploit some feature of BIONICLE physics to work. (I have a feeling that I may be completely wrong though... )

 

But all that doesn't really help the question of "Can there be two Vahi?"

That "one-of-a-kind" Greg quote kind-of supports the idea of only one of each mask... But the fact that he didn't answer the question about two Masks of Creation with a simple "There can't be two Masks of Creation" and instead gave a less simple answer suggests that the former answer is not true.

 

I do like fishers' logic about multiple Masks being possible but not near to each other - that way, distant civilisations wouldn't run into trouble if they discovered how to make Legendary Kanohi, but you could still tell a fun story about a guy on Spherus Magna who tries to make another Vahi and has it go horribly wrong.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Xelphene

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I don't think we have any evidence that the Legendary masks actually require the MU to function.

Nope - I read somewhere that the Mask of Time's distortion will still be in effect even on Spherus Magna, and it clearly worked on the island of Mata Nui - but I think it's clear that the Legendary Masks were designed to be used primarily within the MU/Mata Nui. The Mask of Life is a failsafe and an item that either heals the MU or destroys it, the Vahi controls the fabric of time within the universe and the MoCr brings protodermic structure and items useful to the universe into being. All of them are tied to the Matoran Universe and play a specific role within, so they are effectively confined to a closed ecosystem. From my understanding, the power can still be used outside the MU. That being said, i wouldn't be surprised if it was tied to the MU's energy just because the power the legendary masks hold can be extremely dangerous outside of the closed MU.

 

-NotS

Edited March 13, 2015 by Nidhiki of the Shadows

[bonesiii]

 

 

Is there some sort of rule that stops there from being more than one of a particular Legendary Kanohi in existence at one time?

I ask because I have seen some people talk as if it is accepted fact that only one of each legendary mask is possible to exist

It is, but why exactly is not known, as far as I recall. There's two main theories (that I remember offhand):

1) The Great Beings coded a rule into protodermis to prevent any one AI from becoming too powerful, in case they were to glitch and act contrary to the GBs' goals. If a group of glitching AI banded together and all had such masks, there'd be little to no hope of the corrective AI (like the Toa or the Order) taking them down.

2) Some kind of physics-based reason. (Like Junkbot's post.)

 

stating dubious reasons such as "it fully embodies a legendary aspect so only one can exist".

This may or may not be part of it, and could work under either major theory (it could explain the thinking of the GBs in making the rule, without implying it MUST be true; that they COULD have chosen not to make the rule). But I tend to think this is just a rumor that misunderstood the fact that out-of-story, the legendary powers were chosen based on how fundamental they are to reality, and took that as intended to be in-story.

 

2) If the answer to 1) is yes, what would happen if you tried to create a duplicate Legendary Mask?

For example it seems reasonable to think that, theoretically, Artakha could create a second set of Great Kanoka

Good question. Four ideas come to mind off the top of my head:

1) It ends up powerless.

2) It turns into some random other power.

3) It does get a time-based power but is knocked down to Great level.

4) Explosion.

 

SIDE NOTE: I was thinking that it would be interesting if the G2 "danger of combining six elements" is because that is the (G2) method for producing legendary masks.

Maybe, but I doubt they're going for multiple levels of masks or too many terms to memorize in G2; they're going for simple, in general. Could work, but the basic idea behind legendary masks is still called back to with just what they've revealed so far, so there's really no need to use the name for it.

 

10) Is it possible for there ever to be multiple Masks of Time?
 
10) I don't think so, since there aren't other Great Disks to make one from.

Hm... I can think of two interesting ways to take this quote:

 

1) Something actually prevents formation of "Great" disks of those powers in the first place, beyond once. (Unless maybe one was destroyed prior to forming the Vahi, I guess.)

 

2) Maybe the universal understanding we have had that there can only be one Vahi is actually.... wrong?!

 

Wonder where we got that from originally... Hrm.

[fishers64]

 

 

10) Is it possible for there ever to be multiple Masks of Time?

 

10) I don't think so, since there aren't other Great Disks to make one from.

Hm... I can think of two interesting ways to take this quote:

 

1) Something actually prevents formation of "Great" disks of those powers in the first place, beyond once. (Unless maybe one was destroyed prior to forming the Vahi, I guess.)

 

2) Maybe the universal understanding we have had that there can only be one Vahi is actually.... wrong?!

 

Wonder where we got that from originally... Hrm.

 

That quote seems to ignore the fact that Artahka made the Great Disks in the first place, which bugs me. Maybe that was the only batch of proto powerful enough to do that or something...

 

There probably has to be some failsafe to prevent there being like ten bazillion Legendary Masks, however. Otherwise the robot would be a ridiculously huge threat to Spherus Magna, the GBs, and practically everyone. A Team of Toa with Masks of Time would be darn near unstoppable. 

[Votuko]

@NotS

I agree that the Ignika was designed to assist certain MU functions, but I think those functions were added on top of the basic "Life" power, which is more of a universal thing. For example, it was linked to the Great Spirit to be able to do the countdown thing, but it still draws its energy from the fabric of the wider universe, not from the Great Spirit.

(It would be a bit paradoxical for the Ignika to be able to resurrect dead Mata Nui if it was using Mata Nui's then virtually non-existent life energy to do so. )

Regarding the Vahi, it doesn't have a specific MU-regulating role, as it was created later, so needs not be connected to the MU in any way.

 

@bonesiii

2) Maybe the universal understanding we have had that there can only be one Vahi is actually.... wrong?!

 

Wonder where we got that from originally... Hrm.

That's what worries me.

I feel like the idea of "one of each Legendary Mask" is pleasing somehow, so over time we have forgotten that it was only ever a hypothesis.

 

Even I feel like I want to believe that there is a one-mask-only rule, but only for each particular region of space. Distant civilisations should be able to eventually independently discover elements, EP, then Kanohi, then be able to create their own Legendary Kanohi without some sort of GB "one-mask-failsafe" interfering. (Maybe I'd accept it for the MU, but) It just wouldn't make sense for the GBs to be able to influence all Protodermis in the entire universe to stop duplicate masks being made.

 

The closest Greg quote I've ever found to addressing the question, in my opinion, is this one:

2. Why did the Great Beings create only Mask of Creation and make Artakha and Karzahni battle for the mask if they could have made two Masks of Creation?

 

2) Maybe they didn't feel that two were needed. You know, any artist will tell you it is easier to work on your own than to have to collaborate with someone and deal with their creative instincts which might not be the same as your own.

If there really is a physical law stopping two Masks of Creation from existing at a time, then I think Greg would have said so here. The questioner assumes that the GBs "could have made two Masks", and Greg doesn't contest that when he answers, which implies that the questioner was correct. There is wriggle-room, but I think it is pretty strong evidence for the "one mask rule" being something the community made up themselves...

[bonesiii]

Even I feel like I want to believe that there is a one-mask-only rule, but only for each particular region of space. Distant civilisations should be able to eventually independently discover elements, EP, then Kanohi, then be able to create their own Legendary Kanohi without some sort of GB "one-mask-failsafe" interfering. (Maybe I'd accept it for the MU, but) It just wouldn't make sense for the GBs to be able to influence all Protodermis in the entire universe to stop duplicate masks being made.

Oh I don't think anybody meant that -- this is within the "batch" of MU protodermis (GB-made protodermis). Somebody on some alien world could make something just as powerful, I have no doubt, based on studies of EP cores (as apparently all or many alien worlds have since Mata Nui needed to study them to prep for the Reforming), somehow or another.

 

 

Anyways, the problem with assuming it was made up -- well, two problems. First, Greg was active here, and it was discussed often. You'd think he would have corrected it if so -- and he did correct misconceptions like that often. In fact he once said the main reason he came here was to correct misconceptions.

 

Second, we were always very careful about that, and I focused on that a lot. Still, something could have slipped through the cracks.

 

I'm wondering if these were just early answers, though (or maybe later ones; Greg has a tendency to forget what he used to say ). What were the dates on those quotes?

[fishers64]

What were the dates on those quotes?

 

2. From what I've heard, the Vahi and Mask of Life are two examples of "Legendary Masks", one-of-a-kind masks with immense power.

 

a.) Is this an accurate definition of "Legendary Mask"?

 

b.) It was recently speculated that there are four other "Legendary Masks" scatered about the universe which would make a grand total of *gasp:* six masks in all. Is this a plausible theory at all? 

 

2) Yes, and no.

 

8)Since the Voporak has powers that relate to the Mask of Time, I'm guessing that there have been Masks of Time before the one Vakama created. Is this correct? And if so, did the look the same as the Vahi we know?   

 

     

 

  8) No, actually, Voporak was given his powers in anticipation of the fact that someday a Vahi would be created. The only Vahi ever in existence is the one Vakama made.

 

2: Has Arthaka ever tried to make a mask of Time.

 

2) No. You need the six Great Disks to do that, and he didn't have them.

 

10) Is it possible for there ever to be multiple Masks of Time?

 

10) I don't think so, since there aren't other Great Disks to make one from.

 

 

2. Why did the Great Beings create only Mask of Creation and make Artakha and Karzahni battle for the mask if they could have made two Masks of Creation?

 

2) Maybe they didn't feel that two were needed. You know, any artist will tell you it is easier to work on your own than to have to collaborate with someone and deal with their creative instincts which might not be the same as your own.

[Votuko]

That "Artakha didn't have any Great Disks so couldn't make a Vahi" quote always confuses me, because according to BS01 it was Artakha who made the Great Disks, and wasn't there an alternate universe story where he did make a Vahi...?

 

Anyway, I realised that perhaps the whole "legendary aspects" thing makes more sense if they were invented by the GBs (the oppsiite of what I said before ), rather than being some sort of discovered universal force. The same for elemental control and Kanohi powers.

Basically, I realised that the tribes of SM had symbolic elemental affiliations before the GBs created Element Lords that embodied each element, not the other way round. (So if there had been a Cloud Tribe, for example, then maybe the GBs would have invented elemental Cloud powers. )

 

My analogy is how LEGO Universe explained Ninjago's elements. There, there was one universal energy field of "Imagination", which charged up in an individual and then could be channelled in the form of whatever Spinjitzu element you were using.

Likewise in BIONICLE, perhaps rather than having a universal field for each element, there is just one universal "Imagination field", which the GBs learnt to manipulate and draw out into various arbitrary "elemental" forms (which they could then program beings to be able to use). The same "Imagination field" could be the thing that refills a Kanohi with energy, refills a Toa's elemental energy and that the Legendary Kanohi channel in the form of an aspect useful to the MU.

 

I think that Occam's Razor would prefer that to there being over ten "fundamental" elements, but what do you think?

 

And that viewpoint would suggest that creating a duplicate of a Vahi shouldn't fail because of any law of the universe, because it is just a lump of funny metal channelling "Imagination" to achieve pre-programmed powers.

The question is, were the GBs happy to assume that no-one else would make extra Legendary Masks on top of the three they enabled, or did they add a fail safe to the Protodermis like bonesiii suggested?