[CANONIZATION] Melding Makuta Powers

[ALVIS]

Ever since Greg Farshtey approved the idea that Melding Makuta have Courage and Peace instead of Anger and Fear, I've seen people claiming that they should also have Creation, Purity, Prosperity, and Faith.  ArcticFreeze17 has a topic about the various powers he thinks Melding Makuta should have, and he's hardly the first. There have even been edits made to BS01 to that effect (which I have had to reverse). Thus, I'm asking the community to decide if we want to ask Greg to canonize the idea.

 

Do you want to ask Greg to canonize any or all of the following?

• The Melding Makuta possess the power of Faith instead of Fragmentation.
• The Melding Makuta possess the power of Creation instead of Disintegration.
• The Melding Makuta possess the power of Purity instead of Poison.
• The Melding Makuta possess the power of Prosperity instead of Hunger.

Keep in mind that Greg has the final say over this. Even if a majority say that we should ask Greg, he has the power to say no.

 

One additional note: In Reign of Shadows, Alternate Teridax fights a Shadow Takanuva and shatters him into pieces. This would imply that the Melding Makuta do, at least, possess the power of Fragmentation -- or that they have a power with a similar effect. Please keep this in mind during the discussion.

[Mjolnitor]

Who will be the first one to explain how the heck should a power like prosperity work?

[The 1st Shadow]

Mjolnitor makes a good point. How would you explain some of these? Also, with Creation being a Legendary mask power, I question whether that's a good idea to just hand out as a minor power.

 

So, in short, I don't think that replacing the Rahkshi powers with Matoran values is a good idea. Too overly complex.

[fishers64]

Who will be the first one to explain how the heck should a power like prosperity work?

It gives energy to the target, as opposed to Hunger which would take it away. 

 

Anyway, I voted for the second option, because the "opposite" powers suggested could use some improvement in actually being opposites. For example, Building would be a better opposite to fragmentation. Purity implies something else - I'd prefer a less ambiguous anti-poison word. 

 

I thought the fragmentation of S. Takanuva was due to being hit by a warhammer smash, not powers. That is strongly implied, so no issue there.

 

Other than that, I have no opinion one way or the other. The powers being replaced aren't really evil - fragmentation and disintegration esp. so there's no reason to, but I've seen some headcanoning this way (Kuro and Prose in Bionfight Infinite, just for reference) and I don't feel particularly opposed. 

[Mjolnitor]

 

Who will be the first one to explain how the heck should a power like prosperity work?

It gives energy to the target, as opposed to Hunger which would take it away. 

Why is it then called prosperity?

[fishers64]

 

 

Who will be the first one to explain how the heck should a power like prosperity work?

It gives energy to the target, as opposed to Hunger which would take it away. 

Why is it then called prosperity?

 

I don't know. 

[RAMPANT]

 

 

Who will be the first one to explain how the heck should a power like prosperity work?

It gives energy to the target, as opposed to Hunger which would take it away. 

Why is it then called prosperity?

 

Each of these is a principle that matoran follow in MNOGII.  Courage is the principle of Ta-Koro, Purity is the principle of Ga-Koro, Faith is the principle of Le-Koro, Creation is the principle of Po-Koro, Prosperity is the principle of  Onu-Koro, and Peace is the principle of Ko-Koro.

[Mjolnitor]

 

 

 

Who will be the first one to explain how the heck should a power like prosperity work?

It gives energy to the target, as opposed to Hunger which would take it away. 

Why is it then called prosperity?

 

Each of these is a principle that matoran follow in MNOGII.  Courage is the principle of Ta-Koro, Purity is the principle of Ga-Koro, Faith is the principle of Le-Koro, Creation is the principle of Po-Koro, Prosperity is the principle of  Onu-Koro, and Peace is the principle of Ko-Koro.

 

I know that.

I ask why the power of prosperity should suddenly give energy without any explanation other than "it's the opposite of hunger".

[fishers64]

I now want to vote "no". I would rather not have ambiguous power names canonized just because they were non-canon "principles" in MNOG II. 

[RAMPANT]

 

 

 

 

Who will be the first one to explain how the heck should a power like prosperity work?

It gives energy to the target, as opposed to Hunger which would take it away. 

Why is it then called prosperity?

 

Each of these is a principle that matoran follow in MNOGII.  Courage is the principle of Ta-Koro, Purity is the principle of Ga-Koro, Faith is the principle of Le-Koro, Creation is the principle of Po-Koro, Prosperity is the principle of  Onu-Koro, and Peace is the principle of Ko-Koro.

 

I know that.

I ask why the power of prosperity should suddenly give energy without any explanation other than "it's the opposite of hunger".

 

I would tend to agree with that, I was simply answering your question.  The best I can come up with, is that "prosperity" is basically having a large amount of something of value, often an excess of that something, and I suppose a person on whom the power was used would have that, it is still somewhat of a stretch though.

[Katuko]

The powers are getting vaguer and vaguer, aren't they? I think that having "purity" and "prosperity" as powers is at best a novelty idea and at worst grasping after straws. Make it "cleanse poison", like the Kanoka disk, and maybe that could work.

 

And what the heck would "faith" even do as a power? I think there is a reason why these things were called "virtues" and "principles" and not "powers", and why the opposing powers where mostly symbolic and only mentioned in a few poetic lines by Makuta.

[Millennium]

Hey, the old generation is dead after all, and it was quite a messy death. Since Greg (how and when, I don't know, nor why) canonized two of those powers, to me it would be just right to canonize all the others. Some sort of par condicio, you may say. It may not make much sense, but it's not like it's going to change something. It just seems right.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

I think it's a cool idea that the MNOLG 2 virtues have the potential to appear outside the game, as if they're secondary to Unity, Duty, and Destiny.

[Katuko]

Hey, the old generation is dead after all, and it was quite a messy death. Since Greg (how and when, I don't know, nor why) canonized two of those powers, to me it would be just right to canonize all the others. Some sort of par condicio, you may say. It may not make much sense, but it's not like it's going to change something. It just seems right.

You mean we should just keep piling onto the mess, driving G1 into the ground as hard as we can?

[The 1st Shadow]

I've already voted no, but the discussion since then has sparked an idea. Instead of Creation or Building, how about just a reversal of shattering? Restoration, maybe? Like a weaker, more localized version of the Staff of Artakha--repairs the damaged/destroyed object. 

 

Basically, I just think the powers would require some more thought than just "Oh, this is the Matoran Principle that opposes the Rahksi power. Let's use that!" 

[Dorek]

No, we shouldn't ask Greg about obscure content from a game that he had nothing to do with. Courage and Peace are already stretching it.

 

Besides, it doesn't even make much sense; the Makuta still wore their same masks (presumably, and at the very least the Kraahkan), which were already pretty negative in their powers. The whole point of the difference was that these Makuta willingly shunned the moral construct of Darkness/Shadow, and all the physical properties that goes with it; with these powers, it makes them sound like they were manufactured to do it, which completely nullifies the "choice" aspect and the whole lesson that year was trying to teach anyway.

 

The whole thing about the Makuta having different powers stemmed from an unfortunate canon oversight in the first place; I'd rather call a spade a spade than pave over the actual interesting themes that were trying to be presented.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Dorek

[SPIRIT]

I don't even think this is the kind of thing Greg would sign off on anyway.  Realistically there will never be another canon story written in the Melding Universe, but even so, Greg really likes to avoid painting himself (or future authors) into corners by limiting the powers of the characters.

[Millennium]

 

Hey, the old generation is dead after all, and it was quite a messy death. Since Greg (how and when, I don't know, nor why) canonized two of those powers, to me it would be just right to canonize all the others. Some sort of par condicio, you may say. It may not make much sense, but it's not like it's going to change something. It just seems right.

You mean we should just keep piling onto the mess, driving G1 into the ground as hard as we can?

 

Something like that, probably.

[bonesiii]

It does make sense, if the previous reveal is taken as a given. I'm not up to date on (or maybe I'm forgetting) why it's like that, though -- is this something that Makuta would have had they purged inner Shadow? If so, it's relevant to the Core Dimension, so there's that. If it's some random alteration in that timeline... the only real value would be roleplaying/fanfics in the Melding. Which is possible.

 

Can't hurt to ask what he thinks, on this one. I'm not sure what to expect that he would say.

[LewaLew]

I disagree, for many of the reasons named above. Besides all that, G1 is finished as far as we can tell. In my eyes, the canon doesn't matter anymore. We can do whatever we want with canon and it will never be contradicted in the forseeable future. The only canon that has any bearing anymore is G2 canon.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

What.

 

No, absolutely not. This makes zero sense. The proposed new powers are absurd, and I see no reason for a character to spontaneously lose powers to break things simply because they've switched from being a villain to a hero. Heroes have a need to break things frequently in fiction, for instance.

 

~B~

Edited March 17, 2015 by Ballom

[MrSciFiGuy]

Totally down, I do like the idea of Makutas basical being Paladins. Though I may not agree with taking away disintegration and poison, since those could just be battle tactics/powers, I'm fine with all four.

[ALVIS]

Before I incur too much vitriol from those who are opposed to the concept, I want to stress that this isn't my idea. I made this topic because I am sick of reversing edits to the BS01 pages related to this idea, and I just want it settled, one way or another.

 

Just as long as we're all on the same page here.

[toa kopaka4372]

Before I incur too much vitriol from those who are opposed to the concept, I want to stress that this isn't my idea. I made this topic because I am sick of reversing edits to the BS01 pages related to this idea, and I just want it settled, one way or another.

 

Just as long as we're all on the same page here.

I don't see why there should be so much vitriol anyways. People can disagree without being so unnecessarily hostile. But then, since this is about canonization, I guess I shouldn't expect anything different....

 

As for myself, I disagree. Dorek's post put forth a compelling argument against it, when I agree with, and in case these are principles, and not powers, for a reason. It wouldn't work very well IMO.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

I might not mind asking Greg about canonizing powers that actually made sense. But yeah, none of these really make any sense at all, so I voted no.

[V-N]

Isn't the reason why the Makuta have so many gosh dang powers because of their hazardous occupation in making Rahi? They aren't supposed to reflect any virtues; they're supposed to be for the Makuta to control their creations. While some of the powers aren't exactly the best for their jobs (though some, such as hunger, would be useful for subduing out of control experiments), whether the Makuta are good or bad doesn't have much to do with it.

 

But, consider what could happen instead of just giving the light Makuta new powers. Take courage and peace versus fear and anger. They could be explained by the Makuta using the same power, but in a reverse sort of way, similar to how Vakama made ice by using his fire powers to draw in heat. Instead of giving fear, the Makuta draw it out to bring courage. And so forth. I feel less inclined to give the light Makuta completely new powers than just saying that they have the same powers, but use them in a good way. But that still would need to come with a grain of salt as some powers, such as creation instead of disintegration, are still impractical as creation is a legendary power.

 

To answer the original question, no, I don't think we should ask Greg to canonize new powers. Just let the light Makuta keep the original powers and imagine them using their powers in a more peaceful manner.

[Jacks]

Isn't the reason why the Makuta have so many gosh dang powers because of their hazardous occupation in making Rahi? They aren't supposed to reflect any virtues; they're supposed to be for the Makuta to control their creations. While some of the powers aren't exactly the best for their jobs (though some, such as hunger, would be useful for subduing out of control experiments), whether the Makuta are good or bad doesn't have much to do with it.

 

But, consider what could happen instead of just giving the light Makuta new powers. Take courage and peace versus fear and anger. They could be explained by the Makuta using the same power, but in a reverse sort of way, similar to how Vakama made ice by using his fire powers to draw in heat. Instead of giving fear, the Makuta draw it out to bring courage. And so forth. I feel less inclined to give the light Makuta completely new powers than just saying that they have the same powers, but use them in a good way. But that still would need to come with a grain of salt as some powers, such as creation instead of disintegration, are still impractical as creation is a legendary power.

 

To answer the original question, no, I don't think we should ask Greg to canonize new powers. Just let the light Makuta keep the original powers and imagine them using their powers in a more peaceful manner.

This. Not only does it not require more canonization of trivia, it's more interesting.

[Mjolnitor]

They could be explained by the Makuta using the same power, but in a reverse sort of way, similar to how Vakama made ice by using his fire powers to draw in heat.

 

By the way, this is in my own list of the biggest worldbuilding mistakes.

[SPIRIT]

 

They could be explained by the Makuta using the same power, but in a reverse sort of way, similar to how Vakama made ice by using his fire powers to draw in heat.

 

By the way, this is in my own list of the biggest worldbuilding mistakes.

 

The problem was that it could've worked in other contexts, but becomes very problematic when compared to the other Toa's powers.  For instance, a Toa of Ice can't absorb all the cold in a room to make fire.  Then there are the elements that aren't energy based.  It just makes things very unbalanced.

[Mjolnitor]

 

 

They could be explained by the Makuta using the same power, but in a reverse sort of way, similar to how Vakama made ice by using his fire powers to draw in heat.

 

By the way, this is in my own list of the biggest worldbuilding mistakes.

 

The problem was that it could've worked in other contexts, but becomes very problematic when compared to the other Toa's powers.  For instance, a Toa of Ice can't absorb all the cold in a room to make fire.  Then there are the elements that aren't energy based.  It just makes things very unbalanced.

 

That could be fine if there wasn't ice as an element (like, Salamander syndrom mutants in Double Cross control both heat and cold, ice and fire).

But ice already had been an element for around 7 years!

Edited March 17, 2015 by Mjolnitor

[V-N]

I wasn't putting Vakama being able to create ice up for debate (it happened whether you agree with it or not, can't change it now), I was using it as an example to explain my idea. As you said, SPIRIT, it may work in other contexts (such as the Makuta?) You guys give me your opinion on that instead of poor old Vakama so we stay on topic.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I voted no. My reason for it was that I like the original powers more than the proposed ones. 

[N.S.M.8]

I voted yes to some, but no to others.

While I don't think any of the powers should be replaced, there is already precedent to do so.  I think that the Powers of Disintegration and Fragmentation (and any other war-like powers that fans may want to later replace) should stay as they are and that purity should replace hunger, but I don't really care about the other two.  Let's remember what the purpose of the Makuta was in the Melding Universe.
 

 

“So, your title is Makuta?” asked Mazeka. “What do you do?”

“Whatever is necessary,” Teridax replied. “My role is to aid the Toa in looking after the villagers; to create new life forms, as needed; and to teach the virtues of unity, duty and destiny to those I and my brothers bring into being.”

I think that because the Toa already posses elemental powers (and are trained to repair a planet), the Matoran posses great physical strength, and the Makuta posses Telekinesis (and presumably magnetism), there is no need to give them MORE powers for construction; the villages already posses enough powers for building.  The Makuta need some powers for defending the villages against external threats (and possibly to assist the Matoran and Agori in demolition projects).  

I would be okay with swapping Poison with Purity (Remove Poison), as poison does not seem useful to them in aiding the Toa, but another type of healing would be useful.  

[bonesiii]

What.

 

No, absolutely not. This makes zero sense. The proposed new powers are absurd, and I see no reason for a character to spontaneously lose powers to break things simply because they've switched from being a villain to a hero. Heroes have a need to break things frequently in fiction, for instance.

 

~B~

Like I said in my post, I have a question about this. However, it would make sense if this is the natural result of draining all of their inner shadow. The generic villain to hero switch isn't necessarily all that's going on here, and it makes sense for Bionicle canonizations to draw from how things work in the Bionicle story.

 

Isn't the reason why the Makuta have so many gosh dang powers because of their hazardous occupation in making Rahi? They aren't supposed to reflect any virtues; they're supposed to be for the Makuta to control their creations. While some of the powers aren't exactly the best for their jobs (though some, such as hunger, would be useful for subduing out of control experiments), whether the Makuta are good or bad doesn't have much to do with it.

 

But, consider what could happen instead of just giving the light Makuta new powers. Take courage and peace versus fear and anger. They could be explained by the Makuta using the same power, but in a reverse sort of way, similar to how Vakama made ice by using his fire powers to draw in heat. Instead of giving fear, the Makuta draw it out to bring courage. And so forth. I feel less inclined to give the light Makuta completely new powers than just saying that they have the same powers, but use them in a good way. But that still would need to come with a grain of salt as some powers, such as creation instead of disintegration, are still impractical as creation is a legendary power.

 

To answer the original question, no, I don't think we should ask Greg to canonize new powers. Just let the light Makuta keep the original powers and imagine them using their powers in a more peaceful manner.

On the other hand, all of this could be canonized and these names could just be the Makuta deciding to call the powers by names more symbolic of their moral choice.

 

Since that answer draws on psychology, I'd be all for it. (Well... except the alternate timeline problem of relevance mentioned in my previous post.)

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Poison and Hunger would be nice to have replaced with opposites; and as for Anger and Fear, their powers could be replaced with those from the Mask of Light.

[V-N]

That's a good point bonesiii.

 

I guess I can jump on board with this if it could be decided that these "new powers" are clearly stated to be the original Makuta powers, but renamed to match their use for good.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Either way there is enough information here that we can make that assumption ourselves. We don't necessarily need it canonized to know that this is probably the case. I don't mind if it gets canonized though, just brings a little bit more trivia to BS01.

 

-NotS

[Toa R. Lih Nit]

Well, the Makuta (and Rahkshi/Tahu) had some positive powers, I think Alt-eridax doesn't need have all the opposite powers.
Fear/Anger are mental powers, the other 4 are physical. (Is like asking for Ice-Vision)

[Millennium]

I will just leave this here since I didn't post it in the post before (and this way it'll be noticed, woot).

What we are debating over is something of ridicolously irrelevant significance. It's something related to an alternate dimension of the first generation of Bionicle that we have no chance to ever visit again.

It's either all or none. Since Greg chose to let those two powers become official, it can't be none. For how much nonsensical these powers might be, I'll go with what seems right, rather than with what has more sense.

[Dorek]

For how much nonsensical these powers might be, I'll go with what seems right, rather than with what has more sense.

That's... depressing. What makes "sense" should always take precedent. The whims and fancies of the fanbase should never be prioritized over actual logic.