Bionicle's piece lack of vital pieces in Lego Digital Designer

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

There's always one thing that bugs me when it comes to lego digital designer. Why are there so few classic bionicle exclusive pieces not available in the program, why is it that pieces like CCBS are available in LDD while bionicle pieces over 4 years old or more arent available at all so people can experiment with them.

I'm going to name a few pieces

• Toa Metru/bionicle 5x1 with 2 balljoints waist piece. this one is essential intstead of having to scrap your idea when you wish to use a inika torso only to not having the proper waist needed
   
• Inika Chest armor(both variants) and 2006 onwards toa inika shoulder armor
   
• Old 2002 toa nuva armor pieces

• Toa metru head piece and eye pieces(both variants)
   
• More bionicle mask other than 2010/2009 glatorian and stars masks
   
• more of the older bionicle weapons such as 2001 lewa's a axe and tahu's magma swords and 2003 pohatu nuva's claws

 

These are just a few bricks from the top of my head but given the time period LDD has been avaible for, why is lego holding back on bionicle pieces.

Share your thoughts or if lego has given any statements on these issues. I'm sure many of you can think of great pieces that could be experimented with.

[LegoSWfan]

I would love to MoC with LDD, but they don't have very many Bionicle parts, it's really saddening....

[Lyichir]

There are a number of reasons.

 

Firstly, new or current parts are prioritized by the LDD team, due to the fact that they're the parts that are most available to the majority of users. The majority of classic Bionicle parts have been discontinued for years and are unlikely to ever be used again.

 

Secondly, the original CCBS parts were added to LDD's software at the same time as they became available through the online Pick-a-Brick, and by extension, the now defunct Design-by-Me service. In that sense, the addition of CCBS parts was a necessity compared to previous constraction elements.

 

Thirdly, older parts are added to the software based on overall demand, as relayed to the LDD team by Lego Ambassadors—and the vast majority of Lego Ambassadors come from AFOL communities with minute interest in Bionicle compared to BZPower. That means that when the LDD team has completed the necessary programming for new and current parts and has time to spend on programming in older parts, the demand for old Bionicle parts is dwarfed by the demand for things like old Space windscreens or similar System elements.

 

And on top of all that, the LDD team is stretched thin. They have a huge workload and unfortunately, when the Design-by-Me service was discontinued it eliminated the only concrete revenue stream that could be sourced from the program. That's part of why it's been so long since there have been any major updates to the functionality of the software, with only biannual parts updates for the most part.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Lyichir

[LegoSWfan]

I guess us bionicle fans will have to make due with our plastic parts.

Edited March 20, 2015 by ToaSalvus

[evil_jaga_genius]

I actually use LDraw instead of LDD but they too have hardly any Bionicle parts.  And it's flipping confusing on how to add your own parts--or if you can do it at all.

[Lyichir]

I actually use LDraw instead of LDD but they too have hardly any Bionicle parts.  And it's flipping confusing on how to add your own parts--or if you can do it at all.

LDraw's library is in fact entirely user-generated. But, like with LDD, the demand for Bionicle parts is negligible compared to the demand for traditional bricks. In addition, being user-generated means that users are 100% responsible for getting the geometries right—and needless to say it's a LOT harder to model a complex Bionicle mold accurately than it is to model an ordinary brick composed mostly of simple geometric shapes.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Lyichir

[LegoSWfan]

The demand for bionicle parts is still thriving, small, but thriving.

[PeabodySam]

I was just heading to Eurobricks to find a relevant quote explaining why so many BIONICLE parts are given the short end of the cross axle, but looks like Lyichir just Kapura'd me.  But just to reiterate: specialized elements that haven't been used in at least five years are not a high priority for the LEGO Digital Designer team.

 

Still, fret not.  The most recent brick version, 1564.2, gave us 60930 Rocket Rucksack, better known as the jetpack used by the 2008 Av-Matoran and Lewa's Phantoka armor, among others.  The update before that gave us some more parts, including 64305 Weapon 7.  2009 (Stronius's Thorned Club), 64307 Weapon 9  2009 (Vastus's Venom Talon), 64308 Weapon 10  2009 (Kiina's Vapor Trident), 64321 Maske 9,  09 (Metus's helmet), and 64328 Mask 22, 09 (Perditus's helmet).  Some more BIONICLE parts came from the brick version before that one, and some more from the brick version before that one, and so on and so forth.  Simply put, we're getting our BIONICLE parts... very slowly, but surely.

 

For what it's worth, even with LEGO Digital Designer's limitations, I've been finding ways to recreate a number of sets to the best of my ability for the Eurobricks "Official LEGO Sets made in LDD" index.  You can find my works here.  All substitutions made for missing pieces are marked under the Groups tab (along with other general errors due to software limitations), so you can easily pick them out and remove them if you don't like them.  And there's still plenty of work that I can do, trust me!  I just finished the 2005 playsets, and I'm currently working on the 2006 playsets... that is, if I ever have free time...

Edited March 20, 2015 by PeabodySam

[Lyichir]

The demand for bionicle parts is still thriving, small, but thriving.

But key word, small. If 95 people ask for the old UFO windscreens and 5 people ask for the Toa Mata torso, it's no contest which one is going to take priority.

 

Bionicle is and always has been a niche theme in the adult fan community. It was niche when it debuted in 2001. It was niche at its peak in 2003. It was niche when it ended in 2010. Even the 2015 revival is STILL a niche theme compared to wildly successful new System themes like Ninjago and Chima, let alone timeless classic themes like City, Space, and Castle.

 

On that note, perhaps it would be worth investigating whether one of BZP's ambassadors could accept submissions for "most wanted parts" to submit to the LDD team. Bionicle part recommendations are more likely to stand out if gathered from the BZPower community than they typically would on sites like Eurobricks.

[LegoSWfan]

Just because it is a niche theme dose not mean it is any less important.

 

We, BZPers, have a chance to band together with an admin to submit "the most wanted part".

[Bfahome]

Just because it is a niche theme dose not mean it is any less important.

It kind of does.  The less demand there is for a certain theme's pieces, the lower they'll be prioritized.  Adding a piece like Lewa's axe (a discontinued piece that was used only once in a set from 15 years ago) is not as "important" as adding some other piece that has appeared in many themes and maybe hasn't been shelved for so long.

 

That being said, I do think it'd be nice to get the BZP community and BIONICLE community at large to demonstrate that there is a desire for BIONICLE pieces.  Unfortunately, due to the sheer number of pieces that BIONICLE introduced, I don't think LDD's library will ever come close to being exhaustive, so we'd have to decide which pieces the community would most like to see.  It also probably wouldn't hurt to choose ones that were widely used, like the Toa Metru head.

[LegoSWfan]

But a part form an old space set from the 80's is a priority? Thats kind of a double standard.

[Bfahome]

Not really.  Something like a windscreen would have far more use to a lot of people than a large axe or a Kanohi.  So it'd be prioritized above them.

[fishers64]

To be honest, I think there are a lot more Bionicle fans currently around (and using LDD) than fans of 80s space sets. 

 

(Also, half the point of LDD is designing stuff you don't have in plastic so you can...actually get the plastic to build the model. 80s space set parts are dang expensive. You don't want that on your model unless you must have that specific shape. Bionicle parts are pretty cheap in comparison.)

 

Athough that is a poor comparison anyway, considering that Bionicle parts are currently in production right now - obviously those parts would take precedent over any ancient/old theme...and that increases awareness of the old sets in addition. I could see it prioritized less than Ninjago or City, but in terms of old parts Bionicle should be near to the top...

Edited March 21, 2015 by fishers64

[LegoSWfan]

Don't forget that many kids using LDD won't know about a 20+ year old windscreen, compared to a inika limb that they could have seen in life.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Well while I want Bionicle parts as much as the next guy/gal, I have to agree that while a part from an old 80's set may seem outdated, the part itself can be used further in other possible sets over a mask or weapon for Bionicle only sets. Not sure what this "windscreen" looks like, but in theory it could be used in any other vehicle set or if one wanted to be really creative a building or fortress. A weapon or accessory designed for a certain type of set has less valuable extra options... It sucks but is a fact of life. On the plus side however, with the increase of CCBS sets coming out and Bionicle in general coming back means more demand for such parts.

[LegoSWfan]

Yes, for skeleball parts... :,(

[Jacks]

For perspective's sake, this is the piece that was used as a windscreen in the Classic Space sets. It may be out of print, but an updated version also exists. So to say that "kids won't know about it" is not tterribly accurate, as it's been in near-continual use since its introduction (except for maybe the early/mid 00's when super specialized parts were all the rage)

[LegoSWfan]

Ah good Ol' early 00's when a jet part was a jet part; not a jet part, car part and house decor.

[Jacks]

good ol' early 00's when they introduced Sand Purple as a color in Life On Mars and then never used it again

[Bfahome]

Don't forget that many kids using LDD won't know about a 20+ year old windscreen, compared to a inika limb that they could have seen in life.

Either way, both are discontinued, so the choice still favors the more widely useful one.  You may like it when parts only ever have a single use, but that goes against not only the majority of vocal LEGO fans but the entire purpose of the LEGO building system.

 

An Inika limb is going to be far less useful to most people than a sloped brick.

[LegoSWfan]

I just like a part to serve its intened purpose, that's all.

[Bfahome]

And in a good many cases, the "intended purpose" of a part is to be something that can be used in a variety of ways.  BIONICLE has always been the odd one out in this regard.  Cool as they may often be, the waves of new unique molds that were never used again was far from beneficial to LEGO's bottom line.

 

Relegating a part to one purpose also missed the array of building possibilities you get from it.  How much will vary with the part (a 2x4 brick will probably give someone more mileage than Lehvak-Kal's shield, for example), but at their heart the LEGO systems are meant as building toys that aren't just one thing and one thing only.

 

Heck, LEGO Digital Designer even goes further with it, giving you virtually unlimited numbers of the available pieces (which are plentiful) that you can make into any color from LEGO's palette.  While it may be limited in certain ways, it still provides an opportunity to build and create.

 

And that's why BIONICLE's presence in LDD will likely always be incomplete; the team is going to prioritize new pieces and pieces that weren't meant as single-use molds.

[LegoSWfan]

But bionicle has had a larger impact on legos success than any other theme (aside from Star Wars).

 

Shouldn't the theme that saved you rank pretty high on the list of priorities?

 

Lego ain't just bricks.

[Lyichir]

But bionicle has had a larger impact on legos success than any other theme (aside from Star Wars).

 

Shouldn't the theme that saved you rank pretty high on the list of priorities?

 

Lego ain't just bricks.

Ah, the old "Bionicle saved Lego!" argument. Bionicle is only responsible for Lego's current success because in an era of failed themes and poor management, Bionicle was the least bad. It kept them afloat in a rough patch, but it was only a small factor in their turnaround.

 

In any case, the fact that Bionicle helped Lego more than a decade ago does not entitle Bionicle fans to special treatment. Lego is more than just bricks, but bricks are their bread and butter, and they're what the vast majority of Lego fans are interested in. Happiness as a Bionicle fan requires recognizing that your particular interests pur you in a small but dedicated bloc of the wider Lego fan community.

[LegoSWfan]

If bionicle hadn't kept lego afloat, we wouldn't be here today, arguing about the bioniclers right to see their favorite parts in LDD. Why you keep thinking of bionicle as just a small part of lego is beyond me, perhaps you feel it encroaches on other themes you hold near and dear? It's ok! Legos for everyone, your not going to like all of it, I don't care for friends or chima, but you don't see me berating it. Must you do the same to bionicle?

[Bfahome]

BIONICLE may have acted as a crutch for LEGO, but the over-reliance on special, unique molds for everything was part of what was killing the company in the first place.  So while you may not like the when a piece acts has multiple uses as "a jet part, car part and house decor", the alternative meant that The LEGO Group would have gone under a decade ago.

 

e: Our "rights" have nothing to do with this.  LEGO is offering this service for free, so nobody is entitled to anything.  The fact that they're listening to fan input at all is pretty nice.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Bfahome

[Jacks]

Ah, the old "Bionicle saved Lego!" argument. Bionicle is only responsible for Lego's current success because in an era of failed themes and poor management, Bionicle was the least bad. It kept them afloat in a rough patch, but it was only a small factor in their turnaround.

 

In any case, the fact that Bionicle helped Lego more than a decade ago does not entitle Bionicle fans to special treatment. Lego is more than just bricks, but bricks are their bread and butter, and they're what the vast majority of Lego fans are interested in. Happiness as a Bionicle fan requires recognizing that your particular interests pur you in a small but dedicated bloc of the wider Lego fan community.

This exactly. Bionicle is, and always was, a niche theme, no matter how much it helped LEGO financially.

 

Also, Bionicle is not an individual sapient entity, so saying that it deserves to have priority by virtue of selling the least bad of any theme in the early 00's, as though it were something Bionicle itself did is...kinda strange. Realistically, saying that "Bionicle saved LEGO" means understanding that the people who wrote, crafted, and designed Bionicle saved LEGO, and they knew and know that they were and are working to appeal to a niche audience.

 

plus, whether it was Bionicle or Star Wars that ultimately kept LEGO from going under is still subject to debate

 

Why you keep thinking of bionicle as just a small part of lego is beyond me

it's because it is.

 

I don't care for friends or chima, but you don't see me berating it. Must you do the same to bionicle?

Nobody here is "berating" Bionicle. Do you really think we'd be on a Bionicle fansite if we didn't love it too? Edited March 21, 2015 by Jacks

[Ford]

 

But bionicle has had a larger impact on legos success than any other theme (aside from Star Wars).

 

Shouldn't the theme that saved you rank pretty high on the list of priorities?

 

Lego ain't just bricks.

Ah, the old "Bionicle saved Lego!" argument. Bionicle is only responsible for Lego's current success because in an era of failed themes and poor management, Bionicle was the least bad. It kept them afloat in a rough patch, but it was only a small factor in their turnaround.

 

In any case, the fact that Bionicle helped Lego more than a decade ago does not entitle Bionicle fans to special treatment. Lego is more than just bricks, but bricks are their bread and butter, and they're what the vast majority of Lego fans are interested in. Happiness as a Bionicle fan requires recognizing that your particular interests pur you in a small but dedicated bloc of the wider Lego fan community.

 

 

BIONICLE may have acted as a crutch for LEGO, but the over-reliance on special, unique molds for everything was part of what was killing the company in the first place.  So while you may not like the when a piece acts has multiple uses as "a jet part, car part and house decor", the alternative meant that The LEGO Group would have gone under a decade ago.

 

e: Our "rights" have nothing to do with this.  LEGO is offering this service for free, so nobody is entitled to anything.  The fact that they're listening to fan input at all is pretty nice.

 

^This exactly. Bionicle is, and always was, a niche theme, no matter how much it helped LEGO financially.

 

Also, Bionicle is not an individual sapient entity, so saying that it deserves to have priority by virtue of selling the least bad of any theme in the early 00's, as though it were something Bionicle itself did is...kinda strange. Realistically, saying that "Bionicle saved LEGO" means understanding that the people who wrote, crafted, and designed Bionicle saved LEGO, and they knew and know that they were and are working to appeal to a niche audience.

 

plus, whether it was Bionicle or Star Wars that ultimately kept LEGO from going under is still subject to debate

I agree with all of these points. Bionicle is just ONE theme that Lego has to offer among the multiple System themes the company has produced. If anything, I could quote someone else on this matter:

 

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..."

(Yeah, I went there )

 

What do most people like about Lego? For starters, the Minifigure! It is, to many people, the icon of Lego. It's even your avatar, Salvus!

The point is, what sticks out more to the majority of people in this world: The Minifigure or the Kanohi Kualsi? 

I bet that if you surveyed 100 Lego fans at random, only about 10 or 20 would know what the Kualsi is, let alone what Kanohi means. That means there are 80-90 people who do not know this information and would rather settle with the Minifigure.

 

It is all about popular demand, and right now, old and discontinued parts are not in popular demand, but discontinued.

Just settle for what you have at this point, I guess, and I apologize if this is either rude, lengthy, or a little bit of both.

[LegoSWfan]

It's not that I don't like classic lego, I just feel that bioniclers deserve more than just a few odds and ends on LDD.

[Bfahome]

Again, this is a service that is developed, updated, and provided at no cost to any of us.  We don't "deserve" anything.

 

Maybe with some community support we can get a few more pieces added in, but with the sheer number of BIONICLE molds it's always going to be "a few odds and ends" by comparison.

[Jacks]

Why do you feel we deserve it? LEGO doesn't owe us anything just for being fans of Bionicle -- that would be like if you came over to my house and I gave you a sandwich, and upon eating it you said, "Gee, I really enjoyed consuming that sandwich, and because I liked it so much you now owe me a cup of tea as well"

 

kapura'd

Edited March 21, 2015 by Jacks

[LegoSWfan]

If we didn't buy bionicle, lego would have sunk in the early 2000's.

 

We kept lego alive today. That's why.

[Jacks]

Except our reward for keeping LEGO alive with our financial contributions was Bionicle. We don't get another reward for that because it simply wouldn't be a rational exchange of goods and services.

 

Allow my to refine my previous analogy. Let's say I run a cafe and you buy a sandwich from me. You can't say that I owe you a cup of tea on the house because you supported me by buying a sandwich -- you paid for the sandwich, not for a sandwich and tea. If you want tea, you'll have to pay for it too.

 

That is to say, we've given LEGO our money in exchange for Bionicle. We haven't given them anything in exchange for specific parts in LDD, so they have no reason to give us those.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Jacks

[Bfahome]

If we didn't buy bionicle, lego would have sunk in the early 2000's.

 

We kept lego alive today. That's why.

That's not quite how it works.  Buying something from a company is not an investment in the company; you were buying a toy, not stock.  You can't come back fifteen years later and claim that you "deserve" something for your money, because you got what you "deserve": the toy you paid for.

 

Also I highly doubt that "we" kept LEGO alive.  "We" are a small segment of a small demographic of people outside of BIONICLE's target audience.  Most people who bought BIONICLE sets back when LEGO was struggling probably don't even care about them any more.  It won't matter to them what LEGO's design software has in its inventory.  "We" are the few who stayed interested, and "we" are only diminishing as time passes.

[LegoSWfan]

This is the bionicle berating I was talking about, not giving bionicle enough credit.

 

I don't do this to chima, so please don't do it to bionicle?

[Jacks]

I fail to see how explaining basic economics is in any way equivalent to "berating" Bionicle. Like I said, we're fans too, or we wouldn't be here in the first place.

[LegoSWfan]

Then why havent we seen lots of posts talking about parts we'd like to see? Instead we see posts like this:

 

"There's not many bionicle parts because it's not important enought."

[Bfahome]

This is the bionicle berating I was talking about, not giving bionicle enough credit.

 

I don't do this to chima, so please don't do it to bionicle?

You aren't giving LEGO enough credit.  You say that LEGO wouldn't exist if not for BIONICLE.  But really, BIONICLE wouldn't exist if not for LEGO.  And certain parts of BIONICLE were what was harming the company in the first place, such as over-reliance on special molds and large color palettes.

 

The idea that LEGO owes its success to BIONICLE is extremely near-sighted.  I am not "berating" the theme by saying that.  The fact is that, while the BIONICLE theme may have helped LEGO get past a difficult time, the company had existed for a long time before that.  BIONICLE wasn't its big success; the original building system was.  Ask random people what they think of when you say "LEGO" and most of them will probably say bricks, not BIONICLE.

 

e:

 

Then why havent we seen lots of posts talking about parts we'd like to see? Instead we see posts like this:

 

"There's not many bionicle parts because it's not important enought."

Because this was the question that was asked:

 

Why are there so few classic bionicle exclusive pieces not available in the program

 

And the answer is because they're low on the priorities list.  They aren't as important.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Bfahome

[LegoSWfan]

See? This is what I'm talking about! Bionicle is just as important as any other theme! Lego purists need to get it through their heads, bionicle is lego, deal with it! Lego isn't just bricks.