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For some time now, editors on BS01 (myself included) have been waging an off-and-on argument about what to call the heroes of Generation 2. Some favor Masters; others favor Toa (Generation 2). Various arguments have been made in support of and against both terms. I do not in any way purport to have the authority to settle this dispute through a poll, but I am interested in gauging what the BZPower community at large thinks.

 

That's all I have to say right now. I will elaborate on my personal position later.

Edited by ALVIS
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Shouldn't there be a 'both' option on the first question for those of us who rabidly devour every nugget of G2 just as rabidly as we did G1?

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I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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I can see people getting the generations mixed up by both using the term "Toa", but they're referred to as such as well as Masters in the new story. I guess either way is accurate.

 

And yes, there should be a "both" option for the first question. 

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The first question is actually meant to gauge which generation introduced fans to BIONICLE, ie. whether they are "genwunners" or G2 fans. "Both" is not an option, because one cannot have been introduced to BIONICLE by both G1 and G2. I will rephrase the question to make it more clear.

 

The reason for this question is an objection raised by Dorek, which suggested that proponents of the term Toa (Generation 2) might be influenced by a sense of nostalgia for Generation 1. I doubt his claim, but I was hoping to investigate some causality/correlation between the two questions.

 

As for my opinion...

 

I can see people getting the generations mixed up by both using the term "Toa", but they're referred to as such as well as Masters in the new story. I guess either way is accurate.

 

I disagree. Sources refer to individual Toa as "the Master of [their element]", but these are individualized titles. All story material (episodes, booklets, etc.) refers to the group of heroes as "the Toa". I have not seen any source that refers to the group itself as "the Masters". This is why I favor the term Toa (Generation 2).

Edited by ALVIS
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I voted "other", as I prefer "Toa Okoto".

It differentiates the team from all G1 teams, although it is still reminiscent of the G1 naming theme for older fans.

 

I don't really like "Toa (Generation 2)" because it is somewhat immersion-breaking when the rest of a discussion may be in purely canon terms, plus it brings up the existence of G1 which may hinder G2 as existing as a totally free-standing story.

More subjectively, I feel that "Master" has the potential to be ambiguous if LEGO bring out more element-users next year who aren't Toa.

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I nulled, because what I would personally prefer might not be wisest anyways... I'd call them "Toa Okoto" and have that "fan-named" disclaimer banner at the top. :P

 

But Masters makes sense, so no objections to the currently winning option.

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The only time they are called Masters is in the set title "Master of" and in the video when Tahu refers to becoming the Master of Fire. Which means they aren't the Master of anything when they start their quest, and they are never ever collectively referred to as "The Masters" as if that's a team name.

The Toa, however, is the collective term for them all that is used all the time.

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I may have misunderstood these options. I chose Toa because that's what I'm familiar with but looking at the last few posters who said they didn't choose it because it's too long or breaks immersion I wonder. Are you suggesting we actually call them Toa (generation 2) and not just Toa? Because if it's the former I think it should have zero votes :P I chose that option assuming it's just 'Toa'.

 

As far as Toa/Masters goes I agree that both are acceptable terms. I also agree that people who prefer the term Toa (like me) probably do so out of a sense of nostalgia. Saying that one term is for the whole group and the other is for an individual seems unlikely and unnecessary so I think the person you quoted was making valid points :)

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Of course, G1.

 

I voted Masters. I will forever call them Toa, just as they were called in G1, but the question is specifically "Which term would you prefer BS01 use to refer to the new heroes?"

This means that it's the term that would be used on BS01, but not necessarily what everyone would call them. I think that "Master" is a good term and it gives distinction between G1 and G2 without having to specifically say G1 or G2. It might confuse new fans if we talk about the Toa but we're referring to G1.

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I think just Toa is perfectly understandable. Unless you're actively comparing the two storylines, the context of any given sentence (and paragraph, and page) should make it plenty clear which group it's referring to. And if it doesn't, the fault is in a lack of appropriate context, not in the terminology.

 

Plus "Masters" sounds dumb as a group name (it sounds ridiculously pompous), is never used to refer to them collectively in-story (they're always referred to as Toa, with "Master of" only used to refer to their specific proficiency), and lacks any specificity (there's nothing keeping Makuta or another character not included in the group to be referred to as "Master of so-and-so" in the future—the term is meaningless when considering it could refer to anybody).

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For me "Toa" brings to mind the specific mechanics of Elemental Powers and Toa Power and transformation and Kanohi and Suva access and the Toa Code and all that, so I feel like it's super anchored in G1.  I like to call the new team Masters (Master Tahu, Master Gali, etc) just because it's a quick and clear way to differentiate and sticks closer to what's on the packaging.

 

Nothing wrong with calling them Toa, of course, just my personal preference.

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Toa is the race of warriors (toa is warrior in Maori), and as Toa this specific group are the masters of their respective elements with their golden masks. As of yet they do not have a toa team name and as other toa have yet to make an appearance, a title is unnecessary; just like the Toa Mata were simply called The Toa back when they were the only Toa we knew existed.  The story team will give them a name either when or even if the time comes for it.

 

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I voted "other", as I prefer "Toa Okoto".

It differentiates the team from all G1 teams, although it is still reminiscent of the G1 naming theme for older fans.

 

I don't really like "Toa (Generation 2)" because it is somewhat immersion-breaking when the rest of a discussion may be in purely canon terms, plus it brings up the existence of G1 which may hinder G2 as existing as a totally free-standing story.

More subjectively, I feel that "Master" has the potential to be ambiguous if LEGO bring out more element-users next year who aren't Toa.

Well I think I fell for the whole Toa (Gen2) as strictly being simply Toa. Though I too refer to them and when referencing their Mata counterparts as Toa-Okoto due to extra team wise or not, they are the next(most recently released) Toa team and naturally should thus be named after their range. Thus I agree that while I did actively vote Toa in the above poll, adding the Okoto Tagline after like the other teams is a viable means of sperating them from the multitude of other Toa teams. From a programing standpoint it would also save the trouble of going back and renaming every single page/image if a new gen2 team gets released.

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I'll just copy and past the assorted arguments I've used because I think I've covered more or less everything that I feel elsewhere:

 

When we first learned about the new sets, we had three very distinct classifications; Protectors, Masters, and Lord. The repeated use of these honorifics was not a coincidence, it was to create a sense of hierarchy in the characters.

 

Much as the Protectors are also villagers (and have been used interchangeably, but regardless), the Masters ARE ALSO TOA. How we define Toa going forward remains to be seen, however; regardless of how we use the terms, if we are to take the Toa as a species, then there would be a separate page for Toa. We currently have very little information regarding how the term is used, so it exists as a redirect, which adheres to convention as we've always done it. The term Toa goes to the disambig page, as it should, while the term Toa (Generation 2) goes to the Masters page.

 

I personally don't see any confusion in the way we use the terms. Both are used (Toa moreso, granted) to describe these characters and who they are. Both terms are usable and searchable to the best possible ability, and personally I think the desire to see Toa as the page is an inherent Gen 1 nostalgia bias.

The term Masters does not have exclusivity on the wiki; I agree that most people are probably more comfortable using the term "Toa", and it is entirely set up in a way that supports their ability to do that. We have the "G" template, the original Toa page is identified as G1, the G2 identification links back the Masters page, and the "Toa" is a disambig that lists both pages. Literally the only thing that would change is the page titles.

 

The examples you give are, I think, a prime example OF the inherent G1 way of thinking that I'm talking about. "Toa 2015" and "Toa Okoto" are very much ways of identifying the Toa based on how we're used to doing so. These guys will never be called "Toa Okoto" (and if they are, I will gladly eat my hat and change the page name). And I certainly don't blame the fans for doing it that way; most of them are from G1, and in discussion, it helps to clarify so you don't run around in circles going "oh thooooose Toa" every time.

 

[...]

 

We have yet to see a real influx of fans from the new generation, which is the whole reason for dividing Gen 2 in the ways we do anyway. [...] My personal hope is that G1 fans are old enough and smart enough to perhaps look past something that doesn't necessarily jive with their reflexive way of thinking.

 

Whether or not "what people feel comfortable with" and "what is most accurate" coincide is another matter entirely[.]

Aaaaand that's that. I'm not trying to trick anyone, I'm not trying to make anything difficult for everybody. The terms were used intentionally and it's better to create reference to that.

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Interesting. Dorek failed to convince me on BS01, but after seeing various other arguments and perspectives, I am willing to admit that the "Masters" term has some more advantages than I thought. I still would prefer to use "Toa", but, as others have said, I will reserve judgment until we get some more solid story sources (ie. books).

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I'm a G1 fan, and I voted "Toa (Generation 2)". Using "Masters" as a team name in BIONICLE is like using "1.0s" and "2.0s" as team names in Hero Factory or "CHIs" as a team name in Legends of Chima. Maybe it might work as shorthand for use in discussions, but nobody with half a brain would confuse it for an actual team name.

Toa, on the other hand, has been used extensively to refer to the new Toa as a group — in animations, magazines, and on the website. Calling them "Toa 2015" or "Toa Okoto" on the wiki would be silly, and I'm not disputing that. There's no sense making up a name when the term that's actually been used (Toa) is perfectly serviceable.

If they are to be called Masters, at least call them "Elemental Masters" or "Masters of the Elements" or something like that, because the term "Masters" is utterly meaningless when you don't specify what they're masters of.

But chances are, BS01 will just go on calling them "Masters". It wouldn't be their first idiotic decision, and I'm certain it won't be their last. It'll just be a reminder of why I'm glad my days as a dedicated wiki editor are behind me. I've wasted enough of my life on that dead-end crusade.

Edited by Aanchir
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But chances are, BS01 will just go on calling them "Masters". It wouldn't be their first idiotic decision, and I'm certain it won't be their last. It'll just be a reminder of why I'm glad my days as a dedicated wiki editor are behind me. I've wasted enough of my life on that dead-end crusade.

That was needlessly passive-aggressive (or really just aggressive) and with that kind of attitude, I think it's better that you're no longer around us.
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But chances are, BS01 will just go on calling them "Masters". It wouldn't be their first idiotic decision, and I'm certain it won't be their last. It'll just be a reminder of why I'm glad my days as a dedicated wiki editor are behind me. I've wasted enough of my life on that dead-end crusade.

That was needlessly passive-aggressive (or really just aggressive) and with that kind of attitude, I think it's better that you're no longer around us.

 

Nothing aggressive meant by it. It's just a general comment on the futility of my time on various wikis. Only one of the wikis I ever edited even exists any more, and it's the one where I've accomplished the least. BS01 still uses em dashes and hyphens incorrectly/inconsistently, they still have a "color index" that is esoteric and arbitrary, and all the hard work I put towards actually crediting artists for their artwork was lost during one of the many site crashes, simply because BS01 couldn't salvage the content of pages that weren't categorized, which included all image pages.

 

We had a good thing going on HS01! We used sensible template colors, and sensible page names, and sensible image names. I reported on New York Toy Fair for them, and thankfully that's all backed up on Eurobricks. But HS01, like The Ninjago Wiki or The Chima Wiki, doesn't exist anymore. Can you blame me for feeling like all those hours I poured into those sites was wasted? Particularly when BS01, the only site I've spent a lot of time editing that still exists, continues to disappoint me in new ways, and remind me of the futility of all the time I have spent there? I don't enjoy wiki editing anymore. When I did enjoy it, that's because I was under the impression that I was making a difference, but nowadays I have a hard time even pretending that any of that time and effort was well-spent.

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BS01 still uses em dashes and hyphens incorrectly/inconsistently

So fix them! This is one of my biggest issues with those sorts of complaints. It's a wiki. It's meant for collaboration! There's only so many things we can do in a given day. Personally I wasn't even aware that was an issue; the only time I can think of that there are hyphens and emdashes are even used are in quotations, and if there's a difference there it's because things get quoted/copied verbatim.

 

they still have a "color index" that is esoteric and arbitrary

All I can say is "arbitrary" is right. I know you have a thing for colors, but they can't all be winners, especially when you have to use as many as we do. Again, something I invite help with reforming, if need be!

 

and all the hard work I put towards actually crediting artists for their artwork was lost during one of the many site crashes, simply because BS01 couldn't salvage the content of pages that weren't categorized, which included all image pages.

So you're mad at us for losing content we're sad to have lost? I get it, it's a bummer. It's like losing a save file; doesn't mean rage-quitting is the answer. If none of the content comes back, then it really WILL have been time wasted, y'know?

 

We had a good thing going on HS01! We used sensible template colors, and sensible page names, and sensible image names. I reported on New York Toy Fair for them, and thankfully that's all backed up on Eurobricks. But HS01, like The Ninjago Wiki or The Chima Wiki, doesn't exist anymore. Can you blame me for feeling like all those hours I poured into those sites was wasted?

HS01 still technically exists, and I'm always fighting to get it back. Can't speak to the Ninjago or Chima wikis, but I'm sorry that HS01 not currently being accessible has had this effect on you; I liked it too (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten it made :U), and it really does suck that it can't be up right now.

 

That said, the last few months of it especially it was also completely dead (even pre-BIONICLE rumors), despite a lot of work needing to be done; as a counter to your example, why put in a herculean effort (and money, that little old thing) for something that didn't have enough support to survive on its own?

 

Particularly when BS01, the only site I've spent a lot of time editing that still exists, continues to disappoint me in new ways, and remind me of the futility of all the time I have spent there?

tl;dr I still think the "idiotic decisions" remark was uncalled for and that you're taking a lot of these decisions a little too personally, but the wiki topic! Use it, instead of letting these things fester away in your soul and lead to snarky comments.

 

That goes for everybody =P.

Edited by Dorek
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BS01 still uses em dashes and hyphens incorrectly/inconsistently

So fix them!

 

Can't. I tried to years ago, then was ordered NOT to, and a lot of the time I had put into fixing them on pages that used them wrong was systematically undone. I'm not interested in going through that again.

 

 

they still have a "color index" that is esoteric and arbitrary

All I can say is "arbitrary" is right. I know you have a thing for colors, but they can't all be winners, especially when you have to use as many as we do. Again, something I invite help with reforming, if need be!

 

Again, I tried to do that years ago. It didn't work. I could try again but it's hard to muster the effort when I have no reason to think it'll end any differently. Especially since it just gets more and more convoluted as time goes on.

 

Frankly, BS01 uses way more colors than it needs. Using the same color for multiple things is not the end of the world, especially when the alternative is having so many colors that nobody can keep track of their meanings anyway.

 

 

and all the hard work I put towards actually crediting artists for their artwork was lost during one of the many site crashes, simply because BS01 couldn't salvage the content of pages that weren't categorized, which included all image pages.

So you're mad at us for losing content we're sad to have lost? I get it, it's a bummer. It's like losing a save file; doesn't mean rage-quitting is the answer. If none of the content comes back, then it really WILL have been time wasted, y'know?

 

No, I'm not mad at you for that. I'm mad at myself for even thinking I could make a lasting difference in the first place.

 

 

We had a good thing going on HS01! We used sensible template colors, and sensible page names, and sensible image names. I reported on New York Toy Fair for them, and thankfully that's all backed up on Eurobricks. But HS01, like The Ninjago Wiki or The Chima Wiki, doesn't exist anymore. Can you blame me for feeling like all those hours I poured into those sites was wasted?

HS01 still technically exists, and I'm always fighting to get it back. Can't speak to the Ninjago or Chima wikis, but I'm sorry that HS01 not currently being accessible has had this effect on you; I liked it too (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten it made :U), and it really does suck that it can't be up right now.

 

That said, the last few months of it especially it was also completely dead (even pre-BIONICLE rumors), despite a lot of work needing to be done; as a counter to your example, why put in a herculean effort (and money, that little old thing) for something that didn't have enough support to survive on its own?

 

That's just the thing, though. We could put forth the effort, but it'd be a tremendous waste. And that's about how I feel about wiki-editing in general.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not under the impression that NOBODY can make a lasting difference by editing wikis. But I feel like whatever it takes to make such a difference, I clearly haven't got it.

 

 

Particularly when BS01, the only site I've spent a lot of time editing that still exists, continues to disappoint me in new ways, and remind me of the futility of all the time I have spent there?

tl;dr I still think the "idiotic decisions" remark was uncalled for and that you're taking a lot of these decisions a little too personally, but the wiki topic! Use it, instead of letting these things fester away in your soul and lead to snarky comments.

 

That goes for everybody =P.

 

I apologize for the "idiotic decisions" remark. It's just tough to stay positive when I feel like none of the effort I put in amounts to anything.
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From what I have gathered, "Toa" is the name of the species while "Masters" is more of a title. If that is the case (and I am sure it is) then to say, "Toa Tahu", is akin to saying, "Human RahiSpeak". That of course sounds rather odd to specify the species, but to acknowledge one's title, while more formal than many of us are used to, is quite propper (can you say, "Sensei Wu"?). Therefore, I believe that the Toa should be called Masters in reference to their title rather than their species.

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From what I have gathered, "Toa" is the name of the species while "Masters" is more of a title. If that is the case (and I am sure it is) then to say, "Toa Tahu", is akin to saying, "Human RahiSpeak". That of course sounds rather odd to specify the species, but to acknowledge one's title, while more formal than many of us are used to, is quite propper (can you say, "Sensei Wu"?). Therefore, I believe that the Toa should be called Masters in reference to their title rather than their species.

 

While I do like your argument, I think one can conclude that, as far as the gen-1 use of the word "toa," it is both a species and a title. Tahu was referred to as Toa Tahu all the time in gen-1. The word means "hero." Hero is a title. And don't tell me "this isn't gen-1." Gen-1 logic is practically all we have to go by at the moment. :P

 

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From what I have gathered, "Toa" is the name of the species while "Masters" is more of a title. If that is the case (and I am sure it is) then to say, "Toa Tahu", is akin to saying, "Human RahiSpeak". That of course sounds rather odd to specify the species, but to acknowledge one's title, while more formal than many of us are used to, is quite propper (can you say, "Sensei Wu"?). Therefore, I believe that the Toa should be called Masters in reference to their title rather than their species.

 

 

While I do like your argument, I think one can conclude that, as far as the gen-1 use of the word "toa," it is both a species and a title. Tahu was referred to as Toa Tahu all the time in gen-1. The word means "hero." Hero is a title. And don't tell me "this isn't gen-1." Gen-1 logic is practically all we have to go by at the moment. :P

 

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You are absolutely right: in Gen1, "Toa" was both a species and a title (I had thought of that myself, but it did not fit with the rest of my post). However, and I know you said not to do this, this is not Gen1; "Toa" is not title. Think about it: do our heroes celebrate being Toa? Do they try to become better Toa? Does anyone aspire to be a Toa? No, they tout that they are Masters; their quest is to become great Masters; no sooner does the PoF say that Tahu is a Toa than he says Tahu must become a Master, not a better Toa. Whatever meaning "Toa" had in Gen1, the original meaning only stands so long as it is not contridicted by more relevant information and from what I have seen, it has.
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What really confuses me is why they are called "Masters" so early in the story? Sure 'dem golden masks give them incredible power, but I'm not sure how they can master their respective elements in such a short amount of time. Especially since they lost their memory.

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What really confuses me is why they are called "Masters" so early in the story? Sure 'dem golden masks give them incredible power, but I'm not sure how they can master their respective elements in such a short amount of time. Especially since they lost their memory.

The ninja of LEGO Ninjago are likewise called "masters" of their elements before they even unlock their Spinjitzu. In both series, the word master is being used in the sense of "one who has the power to control something", not "one who is an expert at something".

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What really confuses me is why they are called "Masters" so early in the story? Sure 'dem golden masks give them incredible power, but I'm not sure how they can master their respective elements in such a short amount of time. Especially since they lost their memory.

Yeah, that part's always a little funny. Basically they say "here are the greatest heroes ever... only here's something that makes them MORE great!". All relative, I guess. Just because they're the best doesn't mean they also can't get better.
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As the Toa Mata were the first Toa of Mata Nui, the Toa Okoto are the first Toa of their island.

 

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Toa Okoto isn't even an official name.

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Anyone else feel Toa Okoto is really clunky? (From an auditory perspective.)

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