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Why the Great Cataclysm?

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What was Teridax's intention when initiating the Great Cataclysm?  If I recall correctly, his original plan involved impersonating Dume, trapping all the Matoran from the city into spheres, using the Vahi to speed up their memory loss, and then "rescuing" them so that he could be hailed as a hero.  I don't see how the Great Cataclysm plays into all of this.  I mean, he could easily call in some Rahkshi or something to attack the city while the Matoran were in the pods.  Forcing the Great Spirit into a coma seems like an awfully difficult way to cause a catastrophe to "save" the Matoran from.  Was it just a failsafe?  I mean, I think I remember seeing somewhere that Teridax came up with his usurp-Mata-Nui plan after his first plan in Metru Nui failed, so I don't think he was already preparing for that when he first infected Mata Nui with the virus.  Can anyone help shed any light onto this? 


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The Great Cataclysm was merely a side effect of his virus attacking the GSR. Mata Nui fell asleep, and the robot crashed into Aqua Magna. I see no way he could have predicted that... you know, beyond the fact that he's Teridax.

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Forcing the Great Spirit into a coma seems like an awfully difficult way to cause a catastrophe to "save" the Matoran from.  Was it just a failsafe? 

 

Well that's not really what it was for, as Click said, it was more a side effect of the virus attacking the GSR; getting recognised as the GS by the Matoran is all well and good except that he wants to be in control of the entire GSR, so he needs the virus (whether he planned for the robot to collapse after he'd safely packed many of the Matoran away or not, collapsing then is what happened...).

Having the Matoran recognise him as their leader who they like seems to be more of a luxury than anything else; as long as they do their job...


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He needed to infect Mata Nui with the virus so he could take control of the MU while Mata Nui was waking up. Because Mata Nui was asleep, no one was piloting the MU and it crashed into Aqua Magna, causing the cataclysm. The trapping of the matoran was just to brainwash them more easily once he took over.

My headcannon is that by leaving Metru Nui unmanned, Mata Nui's "brain" could not work, which played a part in putting him in a coma. This means trapping the matoran actually did play an important part in putting Mata Nui to sleep.

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perhaps he planned to BE the GS, in they eyes of the matoran, after all, don't you think he would want the have a 40-million foot tall body?

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The Great Cataclysm was merely a side effect of his virus attacking the GSR. Mata Nui fell asleep, and the robot crashed into Aqua Magna. I see no way he could have predicted that... you know, beyond the fact that he's Teridax.

I understand that the Cataclysm occurred because Mata Nui fell asleep and crashed.  My question is, why did Teridax want to put Mata Nui to sleep in the first place?  I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Teridax only came up with the plot to take over the GSR and displace Mata Nui's spirit after he put Mata Nui to sleep, the Cataclysm occurred, and he lost to the Toa Metru.  Before that, his plan only concerned using the spheres and the Vahi to seize control.  Since he had not yet conceived his universal takeover plan when he infected Mata Nui with the virus, Teridax must have had some other motivation for doing so.  The Matoran didn't know that the Great Spirit was a real being controlling the MU robot, so what reason was there for putting the Great Spirit to sleep?  That action doesn't seem to directly help the original spheres-and-Vahi plan.


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I may be misquoting, but I thought Teridax had the whole thing planned out, even before the cataclysm.

He put Mata Nui to sleep so that he could slip in his own conciousness in the brief moment after Mata Nui died, but the death effect of the virus took 100 years to kick in. So he wanted the Vahi to accelerate those thousand years, ('Now it will take a lifetime's journey... to achieve both our destinies!' etc) and told the Toa Metru that his plan was to awaken and lead the Matoran as a cover story so they wouldn't figure out his true scheme. Again, this is based on my recollections, and probably has some headcanon mixed in too, but that's what I saw it as.

And as always, BS01 is your friend.  ;)

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I may be misquoting, but I thought Teridax had the whole thing planned out, even before the cataclysm.

He put Mata Nui to sleep so that he could slip in his own conciousness in the brief moment after Mata Nui died, but the death effect of the virus took 100 years to kick in. So he wanted the Vahi to accelerate those thousand years, ('Now it will take a lifetime's journey... to achieve both our destinies!' etc) and told the Toa Metru that his plan was to awaken and lead the Matoran as a cover story so they wouldn't figure out his true scheme. Again, this is based on my recollections, and probably has some headcanon mixed in too, but that's what I saw it as.

And as always, BS01 is your friend.  ;)

That was still part of his plan devised AFTER the fact. At first, he was content to just control the most powerful and important city in the MU. Once he realized that taking over the GSR was an option, he modified the plan to include it. So, he had total possession as an option, but it was not his original goal. So, if he could just take control of everyone while Mata Nui was ignoring the universe, then why knock him out in the first place? 


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I may be misquoting, but I thought Teridax had the whole thing planned out, even before the cataclysm.

He put Mata Nui to sleep so that he could slip in his own conciousness in the brief moment after Mata Nui died, but the death effect of the virus took 100 years to kick in. So he wanted the Vahi to accelerate those thousand years, ('Now it will take a lifetime's journey... to achieve both our destinies!' etc) and told the Toa Metru that his plan was to awaken and lead the Matoran as a cover story so they wouldn't figure out his true scheme. Again, this is based on my recollections, and probably has some headcanon mixed in too, but that's what I saw it as.

And as always, BS01 is your friend.  ;)

 

I think this quote from BS01's page on Mata Nui's Reawakening may help clarify my question:

"Teridax first conceived the idea to overthrow Mata Nui from the Barraki, who had been planning to do so by strategically dominating key points of the universe. Using the knowledge Mutran received from Tren Krom about the secrets of the Matoran Universe, Teridax formulated his plan and used it to take over the Brotherhood of Makuta. He eventually infected Mata Nui with a specialized virus, designed to place the Great Spirit in a coma. Teridax's original plan was to impersonate Dume, and drive the Matoran of Metru Nui to the center of the city with the Morbuzakh. He would then force the Matoran into pods that would erase their memory, allowing him to present himself as their Great Spirit, granting him full control of a key city of the universe.

 

The arrival of the Toa Metru, who defeated the Morbuzakh, briefly altered the plan and Teridax was further able to get the Matoran of the city imprisoned, under the guise of Dume. At this time, Mata Nui fell asleep due to the virus and the Great Cataclysm took effect all across the Matoran Universe. However, Teridax was defeated by the Toa Metru, who trapped him inside a Protodermis cage. Teridax realized he could widen the scope of his ambition to taking control of the entire universe, by replacing Mata Nui's spirit. "

 

The emphasis is mine.  According to this passage, Teridax's original plan, before his defeat at the hands of the Toa Metru, only involved seizing control over Metru Nui, not the entire GSR.  Unfortunately, I can't find any citation for the concept that the GSR-takeover plan was developed after the defeat in Metru Nui.  I remember hearing that elsewhere before, but I can't recall specifically where.  Does anyone else know? 

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I understand that the Cataclysm occurred because Mata Nui fell asleep and crashed.  My question is, why did Teridax want to put Mata Nui to sleep in the first place?

Basically he was jealous, and corrupt enough to act on it.

 

Note I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Teridax only came up with the plot to take over the GSR and displace Mata Nui's spirit after he put Mata Nui to sleep

That's right, but the GC is irrellevant to Makuta's plans before that point because he wasn't using it strategically as your first post seemed to be saying. And probably didn't actually know the timing would be just right to cause it like that. The chances would be higher that either Mata Nui would be in space away from planets at the time, or already landed and observing a world.

 

The timing of being back to the Spherus Magna fragments at the time is still interesting. That could just be destiny, since Makuta was destined to take over the giant anyways and that actually needed to happen, though he was supposed to be good and working with Mata Nui, not against him. Or it might suggest his knowledge from Tren Krom might have involved some timing or some limited access to enough systems via some sort of tap-in to figure it out... but I doubt it.

 

The Matoran didn't know that the Great Spirit was a real being controlling the MU robot, so what reason was there for putting the Great Spirit to sleep?  That action doesn't seem to directly help the original spheres-and-Vahi plan.

Think about it. Your enemy controls everything inside your realm, basically. You really gonna move ahead and "go public" that you're evil while he's still awake?

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It could be that if Makuta tried to mem-wipe everyone and claim that he was the Great Spirit with Mata Nui still awake, Mata Nui would have spoken up and said "Yo, you impostor, get out of my head!"

He could also just fry Teridax without a word.

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I understand that the Cataclysm occurred because Mata Nui fell asleep and crashed.  My question is, why did Teridax want to put Mata Nui to sleep in the first place?

Basically he was jealous, and corrupt enough to act on it.

 

Note I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Teridax only came up with the plot to take over the GSR and displace Mata Nui's spirit after he put Mata Nui to sleep

That's right, but the GC is irrellevant to Makuta's plans before that point because he wasn't using it strategically as your first post seemed to be saying. And probably didn't actually know the timing would be just right to cause it like that. The chances would be higher that either Mata Nui would be in space away from planets at the time, or already landed and observing a world.

 

The timing of being back to the Spherus Magna fragments at the time is still interesting. That could just be destiny, since Makuta was destined to take over the giant anyways and that actually needed to happen, though he was supposed to be good and working with Mata Nui, not against him. Or it might suggest his knowledge from Tren Krom might have involved some timing or some limited access to enough systems via some sort of tap-in to figure it out... but I doubt it.

 

The Matoran didn't know that the Great Spirit was a real being controlling the MU robot, so what reason was there for putting the Great Spirit to sleep?  That action doesn't seem to directly help the original spheres-and-Vahi plan.

Think about it. Your enemy controls everything inside your realm, basically. You really gonna move ahead and "go public" that you're evil while he's still awake?

 

It's been stated a few places that Mata Nui usually didn't pay a ton of attention to what was going on inside of the GSR, right?  I was thinking that even though Mata Nui could potentially smite Teridax without a second thought, it wouldn't be very likely.  Of course, if I were Teridax, I probably wouldn't want to leave that up to chance.  (And I guess Mata Nui did do the change-the-stars bit, so he had already had some level of involvement against Teridax, even if Teridax didn't know it.)

 

Hmm... that brings up another question.  Did Teridax know that the virus would eventually cause Mata Nui to start dying?  If he succeeded in taking over Metru Nui, the Great Spirit's death would be a nasty surprise in 1000 years... or did Mata Nui die mainly because of Metru Nui being empty, not the virus itself?


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It's been stated a few places that Mata Nui usually didn't pay a ton of attention to what was going on inside of the GSR, right?  I was thinking that even though Mata Nui could potentially smite Teridax without a second thought, it wouldn't be very likely.  Of course, if I were Teridax, I probably wouldn't want to leave that up to chance.  (And I guess Mata Nui did do the change-the-stars bit, so he had already had some level of involvement against Teridax, even if Teridax didn't know it.)

 

Hmm... that brings up another question.  Did Teridax know that the virus would eventually cause Mata Nui to start dying?  If he succeeded in taking over Metru Nui, the Great Spirit's death would be a nasty surprise in 1000 years... or did Mata Nui die mainly because of Metru Nui being empty, not the virus itself?

 

Mata Nui only paid attention if his life or body was in danger and he knew of it. Teridax hid his intentions very well, while the Barraki just conquered things outright thinking Mata Nui to be some sort of a physical god giving orders from under a rock.  But Mata Nui didn't really interact with his subjects because he either wanted to respect their free will, didn't care, or a weird mixture of both (probably the latter).

 

After having some time to think and mellow over his defeat by a mere novice toa, he probably realized that the Matoran not working in Metru-Nui for a long time would degrade his health to the very point it was at during the Matoran Civil War and Toa Jovan (history is a great teacher, and I love it so). He knew of the legends of the Kanohi Ignika and the tales of Toa Jovan, so it didn't take long for him to conceive a plan with the information he already knew. When he usurped the god of the Matoran, he would have them awakened and tell a fabricated story about how there was a neglectful and tyrannic deity before him and  he took it upon himself to overthrow this unfit ruler and place himself as the universe's guardian after a struggle that ravaged the whole universe, and all would worship him as their  champion. Then... Toa Vakama got in the way, and you know the rest.

 

 

 

I actually wouldn't mind seeing an alternate dimension where Teridax's original plan worked, then adapting it to become their metaphysical god by literally replacing Mata Nui. Later on Mata Nui could unite the Agori, get a new body and Teridax could go to Bara Magna unleashing all the Matoran Universe soldiers to prevent Mata Nui restoring his place on the throne. The Makuta would be using the truth, but a twisted one at that; he'd be sort of like an enlightened, benevolent despot that has skeletons in his closet and fights to prevent a tyrant from taking control while also preserving his lust for power in a disguise.

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It's been stated a few places that Mata Nui usually didn't pay a ton of attention to what was going on inside of the GSR, right?  I was thinking that even though Mata Nui could potentially smite Teridax without a second thought, it wouldn't be very likely.  Of course, if I were Teridax, I probably wouldn't want to leave that up to chance.

Exactly. And it wasn't only about the strategy of it. He hated Mata Nui, so hurting him was one of his goals.

 

Did Teridax know that the virus would eventually cause Mata Nui to start dying?

I believe Greg said something like that he knew it was a possibility and was okay with it if it happened.

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It's been stated a few places that Mata Nui usually didn't pay a ton of attention to what was going on inside of the GSR, right?  I was thinking that even though Mata Nui could potentially smite Teridax without a second thought, it wouldn't be very likely.  Of course, if I were Teridax, I probably wouldn't want to leave that up to chance.  (And I guess Mata Nui did do the change-the-stars bit, so he had already had some level of involvement against Teridax, even if Teridax didn't know it.)

 

Hmm... that brings up another question.  Did Teridax know that the virus would eventually cause Mata Nui to start dying?  If he succeeded in taking over Metru Nui, the Great Spirit's death would be a nasty surprise in 1000 years... or did Mata Nui die mainly because of Metru Nui being empty, not the virus itself?

 

 

I don't know if we've gotten a definitive answer on whether Mata Nui couldn't stop Teridax or whether he just didn't want to interfere.  It might have been a lot of effort on his part to fix things and since he seemed to be near the end of his mission anyway, he might not have thought it was worthwhile to do something about it (or he wanted to finish before he shut down).  Alternatively, maybe he knew the power vacuum that would ensue from him smiting the guy who was already one of (if not the) most influential people inside him and thought that leaving Teridax alive was the lesser of two evils.

 

I also don't know that the virus is entirely what killed Mata Nui.  I got the sense that the crash-landing on Aqua Magna did a lot of damage, especially, when Voya Nui burst free from his chest and he got 1000 years of seawater pouring into his heart.  Metru Nui being vacant seemed to be more a ploy to keep Mata Nui asleep.  Unknown if it being empty led to the Great Cataclysm, but it probably made it worse.

 

The issue is that Teridax knew the exact timing of the Great Cataclysm (based on his evil sundial), but Metru Nui being out of commission is hazardous to the Great Spirit's health (think back to the Matoran Civil War).  So I mean, it could've been both, but I always got the sense that emptying Metru Nui was to prevent Mata Nui from waking back up rather than being part of what sent him to sleep.

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It's been stated a few places that Mata Nui usually didn't pay a ton of attention to what was going on inside of the GSR, right?  I was thinking that even though Mata Nui could potentially smite Teridax without a second thought, it wouldn't be very likely.  Of course, if I were Teridax, I probably wouldn't want to leave that up to chance.  (And I guess Mata Nui did do the change-the-stars bit, so he had already had some level of involvement against Teridax, even if Teridax didn't know it.)

 

Hmm... that brings up another question.  Did Teridax know that the virus would eventually cause Mata Nui to start dying?  If he succeeded in taking over Metru Nui, the Great Spirit's death would be a nasty surprise in 1000 years... or did Mata Nui die mainly because of Metru Nui being empty, not the virus itself?

 

 

I don't know if we've gotten a definitive answer on whether Mata Nui couldn't stop Teridax or whether he just didn't want to interfere.  It might have been a lot of effort on his part to fix things and since he seemed to be near the end of his mission anyway, he might not have thought it was worthwhile to do something about it (or he wanted to finish before he shut down).  Alternatively, maybe he knew the power vacuum that would ensue from him smiting the guy who was already one of (if not the) most influential people inside him and thought that leaving Teridax alive was the lesser of two evils.

 

I also don't know that the virus is entirely what killed Mata Nui.  I got the sense that the crash-landing on Aqua Magna did a lot of damage, especially, when Voya Nui burst free from his chest and he got 1000 years of seawater pouring into his heart.  Metru Nui being vacant seemed to be more a ploy to keep Mata Nui asleep.  Unknown if it being empty led to the Great Cataclysm, but it probably made it worse.

 

The issue is that Teridax knew the exact timing of the Great Cataclysm (based on his evil sundial), but Metru Nui being out of commission is hazardous to the Great Spirit's health (think back to the Matoran Civil War).  So I mean, it could've been both, but I always got the sense that emptying Metru Nui was to prevent Mata Nui from waking back up rather than being part of what sent him to sleep.

 

Mata Nui was dieing not only from an empty Metru Nui being empty and having his heart filled with water, but also due to the heart not even being on (his sheer size makes the effects of a heart stopping take heck of a lot longer then if it happened to a human, not to mention they both work differently), and the damages to his internal structures from the Great Cataclysm (which was repaired by the Staff of Artakha).

 

The Great Cataclysm was caused by Mata Nui crashing into Aqua Magna. From what i gather, a second Great Cataclysm occurred during the Battle of Bara Magna from Mata Nui's blows and laser fire and GSR initial landing on the planets surface after the destruction of the Core Processor, but that didn't have much effect in the long run as the universe was rendered uninhabitable soon there after and everyone high tailed out of there.

 

His countdown was for the matoran being put to sleep and when the virus should be released. i really doubt he knew of Mata Nui's astronomical location at the time of the fruition of his plan, it was all by the work of destiny.

 

I honestly don't think Teridax took the Robot's initial fall into consideration when he put his plan into motion. 

 

-NotS

Not sure how he would have known where in space Mata Nui was, man.

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Did Teridax actually intended the Great Cataclysm to happen? The plan was to put Mata Nui to sleep so Makuta could take over it. Even with all his power and knowledge, I don't see how anyone inside the MU would know what was happening outside of it.

 

I would also like to point out that it is possible that Mata Nui's life could still have been in danger, even without the damage caused by him crashing into Aqua Magna. A real-life person comatose cannot survive without some form of life support. Though some body functions can act independently of an active brain, one is required for the body to work properly. Problems would eventually arise that would not be able to be taken care of.

 

Though a real world analogy may not work because, you know, Mata Nui is a giant robot, not a fleshy person. In fact, had he never crashed into the moon and the Makuta not be so dramatic, I don't think anyone would have noticed. Mata Nui never interacted with the MU while he was awake; how would him falling asleep be any different?

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Ok, let me see if I have this straight.  I'm trying to get an overall picture of many of the different aspects of Teridax's plan, so here's a list of plan components and rationales:

 

Using the Matoran Spheres: Seize control of Metru Nui, wipe memories, be viewed as a hero.

Getting the Vahi: Speed up Matoran-Sphere memory loss time.

Put Mata Nui to sleep: Spite/revenge/jealousy, keep from being spited.

Great Cataclysm: Not planned for/expected.

 

-Taking over the Core Processor/GSR was a later idea.

-Mata Nui still might've died if the original Metru Nui takeover succeeded, but that did not concern Teridax (if necessary, he could deal with it later if it ever became an issue).

 

Does this seem mostly accurate?

 

 

Also, as another tangent, it only took a few months for the Matoran Sphere to work on Akhmou, and Teridax was able to manipulate him pretty easily.  For how long Teridax had been planning, using the Vahi to save a few months doesn't seem like that it would be that useful.  I know that the Vahi is a powerful artifact that Teridax would love to control, but the stated reason for why he wants it seems pretty weak.


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Also, as another tangent, it only took a few months for the Matoran Sphere to work on Akhmou, and Teridax was able to manipulate him pretty easily.  For how long Teridax had been planning, using the Vahi to save a few months doesn't seem like that it would be that useful.  I know that the Vahi is a powerful artifact that Teridax would love to control, but the stated reason for why he wants it seems pretty weak.

There is no indication that Ahkmou had his memory lost when Teridax manipulated him. In fact pieces of the manipulation relied on Ahkmou knowing certain events in the past still.

 

It's confirmed that the memory loss came later, after the Matoran had been on Mata Nui for some time. 

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Why the Great Cataclysm?

 

> The GSR fell out of the sky as an unintentional side-effect of a takeover plan by a megalomaniac being within.


:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Also, as another tangent, it only took a few months for the Matoran Sphere to work on Akhmou, and Teridax was able to manipulate him pretty easily.  For how long Teridax had been planning, using the Vahi to save a few months doesn't seem like that it would be that useful.  I know that the Vahi is a powerful artifact that Teridax would love to control, but the stated reason for why he wants it seems pretty weak.

There is no indication that Ahkmou had his memory lost when Teridax manipulated him. In fact pieces of the manipulation relied on Ahkmou knowing certain events in the past still.

 

It's confirmed that the memory loss came later, after the Matoran had been on Mata Nui for some time.

I thought Ahkmou had only partial memory loss.

It's possible - waking up slightly earlier than the others could have given him an advantage there. :shrugs:

Hold on, where are you getting the parts I've bolded in these posts?

 

I was under the impression he was actually awoken later than the others, after his memory was wiped (due to staying in the sphere longer than them), and Teridax told him everything. BS01 doesn't confirm the timing either way, but it does make it sound like he had no memory at the time. And what's the point of indoctrinating him before he forgets everything? Makuta would then have to do it all over again anyways...

 

While traveling through the subterranean rivers leading to Mata Nui, the Toa Metru lost his sphere to the riverbed when a massive wave created by Mavrah's Rahi rocked the vessel and loosened his sphere. Teridax later found his sphere resting on the bottom of the river and awakened him with his own power. Teridax told Ahkmou everything about Metru Nui, and told him lies that convinced him that the Toa Metru and Matoran had abandoned him.

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I think the following excerpt from Legacy of Evil, from when Zaktan discovered the outlines of the Brotherhood's plans in the DH fortress, should clear up a few things:

 

It was all here- the plans for Makuta's attempt to seize power in Metru Nui, prophecies about the great cataclysm, and a dire warning that the universe might end as a result of these events. There was a hastily scrawled warning about the possible coming of a Toa of Light. In one corner, there were newer carvings detailing just how long it would take for the Great Spirit to die of his injuries. At the bottom of these, a lone word was savagely inscribed in the stone: Ignition.

[...]

The Brotherhood had predicted that, if the attempt to seize Metru Nui failed and the Matoran escaped, the villagers would eventually link up with Toa. These Toa were to be defeated if possible, but if that proved too difficult, they were to believe they had won their ultimate battle...even if that meant the death of a Brotherhood member.

Once the Toa were sufficiently blinded by their seeming success, the true plan would unfold. When it was done, the Great Spirit would be allowed to reawaken...and a reign of darkness would begin that no Matoran ever dreamed of in his most horrifying nightmares.

 

As for the Ahkmou debate, I present to you an excerpt from the scene where Teridax awakened him, in Time Trap:

 

The Matoran opened his eyes and looked around in panic. "Where am I? How did I get here? What is this place?"

Makuta had expected just this sort of reaction. The pods were designed to erase the memories of those inside, making them more easily influenced when they revived.

[...]

"Let me tell you a tale," said Makuta as they walked. "A tale of a city called Metru Nui and of a band of beings called Toa who conspired o keep greatness from you and then abandoned you to spend eternity at the bottom of this river. They feared you, as they do me, but now I have rescued you. Together, we will seek justice against them for their crimes."

Ahkmou nodded. He did not remember how he had gotten into the pod or ended up in this awful place. But there was no question this heroic figure had saved his life. As he listened to the intricate web of lies spun by Makuta, Ahkmou vowed that he would have revenge on Toa, Turaga, and Matoran, wherever they might hide.

Edited by toa kopaka4372
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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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Then, unless Teridax waited for a significant amount of time after the events of Time Trap to awaken Akhmou, it only takes a few months for a Matoran Sphere's memory-wipe effect to fully work (a few months to a year was the timeframe for the 2004/2005 story, yes?).  Even if Ahkmou was underwater for years before Teridax found him, the Matoran waking up on Mata Nui also had significant memory loss after just a few months in the spheres.  Since Teridax had been plotting for centuries (having infected Mata Nui with the sleep-inducing virus 300 years prior to the events of 2004, according to BS01's MU timeline), I find it hard to believe that the stated reason for wanting the Vahi (speeding up the relatively quick amnesia process) was Teridax's main reason.  Is it possible that Teridax was afraid that the Vahi might never be forged?  If his plan succeeded, all the great Ta-Matoran mask makers would forget their craft after their memory loss.  I may be stretching a bit too far, but since Metru Nui was arguably the most important city in the MU, I think it's plausible that most of the best mask makers were there.  If they lost their skills and expertise before anyone forged the Vahi,  it might be that nobody left in the MU would have the requisite skill to do so.  To prevent this, Teridax tried to get Vakama to create the Vahi before he set his plan into motion.  Being able to use the Vahi to skip the six months of amnesia time would just be icing on the cake.

 

Or, from another angle, when researching a bit on BS01, I was reminded that Teridax's personality as a schemer wasn't cemented until Time Trap.  From an out-of-story perspective, it's possible that Teridax's intended use for the Vahi had been stated before the story team fully decided on the scope of Teridax's plan (perhaps even before the idea of the Plan being a centuries-spanning concept was created).  If the story team initially thought that Teridax had only been preparing for a few months or a couple of years, six months is a lot larger percentage of total scheme time, and saving that six months seems a lot more desirable.  Of course, I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes; I'm just throwing out ideas. 

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I find it hard to believe that the stated reason for wanting the Vahi (speeding up the relatively quick amnesia process) was Teridax's main reason.

I don't know about main, but "stated" is right -- it's the stated reason, meaning the reason we happen to have been told about. I doubt you make a Legendary Mask of Time and not have later uses in mind too, heh. Then again, not sure if he knew exactly what kind of Mask of Time would be made -- he may have not realized that was a Legendary power. Not sure how he would, actually -- would TK know, and if so, tell Mutran? Seems questionable.

 

Either way, speeding time up would be useful.

 

And more to the point, a few months may have been strategically bad for him, considering competing forces might try to get a foothold in Metru Nui when the Matoran were podded. He probably wanted to wake them up right away.

 

But personally I suspect it was more out of frustration that he had failed to invent a power that would do everything he wanted quickly, and when Makuta wants something, he's not the type to give up on it. So even if he didn't see the Vahi as necessarily important for later goals, he may simply have wanted to create the power (or effect from a combination of powers) that he'd had in mind, and based his plans around. He may have already been well into plans based on the assumption that he'd be able to easily invent a mindwiping power, and it might have been too late to switch to some backup plan when he discovered it wasn't so easy.

 

If he did know what the Vahi would be, it would make sense to just use it for a small goal.

 

Might sound counterintuitive, but that's actually exactly how you should use a power that if overused goes out of control and breaks time. :P Then, after that one use, he would control it, and since (if this is actually right; it's been called into question recently) there can only be one (or there only will be one since other Great Disks aren't available to the rest of the universe besides Artakha), he's got a lock on it. This means then he prevents anybody else from making one and using it foolishly and breaking time in the universe Makuta wanted to conquer. (Or using it wisely to stop him.)

 

If the story team initially thought that Teridax had only been preparing for a few months or a couple of years, six months is a lot larger percentage of total scheme time, and saving that six months seems a lot more desirable.  Of course, I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes; I'm just throwing out ideas.

Just to emphasize because not sure if clear above, it's actually not as simple as just comparing the span of time that it would shorten to the span of time the whole plan would take. As an analogy for why, if you have a long car trip, and your planned route goes over a bridge that's out, it doesn't matter that the bridge is a short distance compared to the total route, only that it's a long enough distance that your car can't get over. :P

 

So, what we should be comparing and analyzing here is how much time (and what factors affect it) is too long for a "clean" memory wipe and indoctrination program to complete?

 

Possibly months waiting doing nothing in spheres would be very problematic to such a scheme, as that's months somebody might steal the pods, for example, or maybe hack your indoctrination technology if he was going to use that (who knows how he would do it for 1000 Matoran though), or at least interfere, providing opportunities to speak and counter the propoganda. If you do it instantly, there's no time for the rest of the MU to do any such thing; they go to sleep one day with a populated Metru Nui as we know it, they wake up the next with a populated Metru Nui being taught Makuta's ways. (And travel times to the island from other islands factors here especially.)

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I find it hard to believe that the stated reason for wanting the Vahi (speeding up the relatively quick amnesia process) was Teridax's main reason.

I don't know about main, but "stated" is right -- it's the stated reason, meaning the reason we happen to have been told about. I doubt you make a Legendary Mask of Time and not have later uses in mind too, heh. Then again, not sure if he knew exactly what kind of Mask of Time would be made -- he may have not realized that was a Legendary power. Not sure how he would, actually -- would TK know, and if so, tell Mutran? Seems questionable.

 

Either way, speeding time up would be useful.

 

And more to the point, a few months may have been strategically bad for him, considering competing forces might try to get a foothold in Metru Nui when the Matoran were podded. He probably wanted to wake them up right away.

 

But personally I suspect it was more out of frustration that he had failed to invent a power that would do everything he wanted quickly, and when Makuta wants something, he's not the type to give up on it. So even if he didn't see the Vahi as necessarily important for later goals, he may simply have wanted to create the power (or effect from a combination of powers) that he'd had in mind, and based his plans around. He may have already been well into plans based on the assumption that he'd be able to easily invent a mindwiping power, and it might have been too late to switch to some backup plan when he discovered it wasn't so easy.

 

If he did know what the Vahi would be, it would make sense to just use it for a small goal.

 

Might sound counterintuitive, but that's actually exactly how you should use a power that if overused goes out of control and breaks time. :P Then, after that one use, he would control it, and since (if this is actually right; it's been called into question recently) there can only be one (or there only will be one since other Great Disks aren't available to the rest of the universe besides Artakha), he's got a lock on it. This means then he prevents anybody else from making one and using it foolishly and breaking time in the universe Makuta wanted to conquer. (Or using it wisely to stop him.)

 

Yeah, I agree that Teridax was motivated by simply wanting to control the Vahi.  Do you think the idea that mindwiping the Ta-Matoran would be a significant roadblock to getting the Vahi holds any water, or do you think that finding other skilled maskmakers wouldn't be too much of an issue?

 

If the story team initially thought that Teridax had only been preparing for a few months or a couple of years, six months is a lot larger percentage of total scheme time, and saving that six months seems a lot more desirable.  Of course, I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes; I'm just throwing out ideas.

Just to emphasize because not sure if clear above, it's actually not as simple as just comparing the span of time that it would shorten to the span of time the whole plan would take. As an analogy for why, if you have a long car trip, and your planned route goes over a bridge that's out, it doesn't matter that the bridge is a short distance compared to the total route, only that it's a long enough distance that your car can't get over. :P

 

Ok, that was a bit of a fallacy on my part.

 

So, what we should be comparing and analyzing here is how much time (and what factors affect it) is too long for a "clean" memory wipe and indoctrination program to complete?

 

Possibly months waiting doing nothing in spheres would be very problematic to such a scheme, as that's months somebody might steal the pods, for example, or maybe hack your indoctrination technology if he was going to use that (who knows how he would do it for 1000 Matoran though), or at least interfere, providing opportunities to speak and counter the propoganda. If you do it instantly, there's no time for the rest of the MU to do any such thing; they go to sleep one day with a populated Metru Nui as we know it, they wake up the next with a populated Metru Nui being taught Makuta's ways. (And travel times to the island from other islands factors here especially.)

 

At first, I was under the impression that closing the sea gates would sufficiently isolate Metru Nui to prevent such a problem, but on second thought, that probably wouldn't stop factions like the Order of Mata Nui.

 

P.S. Also, if you don't mind, how do you split a reply-quote into multiple boxes?  Thanks.


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 ^               Often lurking, occasionally writing about sets on BS01.                     


L     This link is a bit old, but there's still some good info about combiners there.


 

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You have to remember that Mata Nui was basically omnipotent within the Matoran Universe, and the only reason Makuta's plot to take over Metru Nui didn't get shut down immediately is that he went about it very covertly. However, he needed Mata Nui's consciousness out of the way if he wanted to bring the final stages of that plot to fruition. The Great Spirit wouldn't exactly take kindly to Makuta taking over the most important city of the Matoran Universe, enslaving its citizens, and replacing the Great Spirit as the object of their worship.

Putting Mata Nui to sleep was first and foremost a means of getting Mata Nui out of the way. You can't take the throne when somebody else is already sitting on it.

Edited by Aanchir
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Not sure how he would have known where in space Mata Nui was, man.

 

That's what I mean - the Great Cataclysm was an unintended side-effect - Teridax knew Mata Nui might be more than just a spirit and the actual universe itself, but he wouldn't have had a way to know its true purpose, so the flight through space would have been unaccounted for. 

 

-NotS

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