What if the MU was a pocket dimension?

[SailorQuaoar]

There's been plenty of debate among bonkles fans as to the size and scale of the Great Spirit Robot, and if there's even enough room inside there for a whole world while still being able to move without completely destroying the surface of Bara Magna due to its gravity.

 

Plus the fact that if the GSR was 40 million feet tall, Spherus Magna would have to be the size of Jupiter. No terrestrial planet can get that big.

 

I thought about how to make the GSR work for my fanfics. Then it hit me.

Mata Nui is bigger on the inside...the Matoran Universe is a pocket dimension!

 

Why didn’t the writers themselves use that explanation? It would have been so simple.

 

The Matoran Universe being another dimension solves almost all the problems with Mata Nui’s size and scale.

Plus there’s already alternate dimensions in Bionicle canon. It would also explain the weird physics.

 

Bam I just fixed Bionicle. You're welcome nerds.

[fishers64]

Uh, what about Voya Nui and Mata Nui? If Voya was inside of a pocket dimension, how did it punch a hole in the very real robot? Why was there no pocket dimension wimey-stuff going on when the Metru went to Mata Nui?

 

How did Teridax manage to take control of the robot if he was inside a pocket dimension inside the robot? How did he manage to exit it?

 

I think it's easier to think of the robots' systems as real and taking up physical space. It neatly resolves all of those issues. 

[The 1st Shadow]

Uh, what about Voya Nui and Mata Nui? If Voya was inside of a pocket dimension, how did it punch a hole in the very real robot? Why was there no pocket dimension wimey-stuff going on when the Metru went to Mata Nui?

 

How did Teridax manage to take control of the robot if he was inside a pocket dimension inside the robot? How did he manage to exit it?

 

I think it's easier to think of the robots' systems as real and taking up physical space. It neatly resolves all of those issues. 

Well, have you ever watched Doctor Who? The TARDIS is a perfect example. The alternate dimension is tied to the interior of the capsule, and can be directly accessed from outside by means of a door. The Doctor is able to pilot the craft (a small box on the outside, and a massive, multi-story, vessel on the inside). An interstellar ship once crashed into the TARDIS exterior, breaching the walls of the console room, without leaking the interior dimensions.

 

The idea's not unheard of.

[SailorQuaoar]

Uh, what about Voya Nui and Mata Nui? If Voya was inside of a pocket dimension, how did it punch a hole in the very real robot? Why was there no pocket dimension wimey-stuff going on when the Metru went to Mata Nui?

 

How did Teridax manage to take control of the robot if he was inside a pocket dimension inside the robot? How did he manage to exit it?

 

I think it's easier to think of the robots' systems as real and taking up physical space. It neatly resolves all of those issues. 

Mata Nui falling asleep weakened the dimensional barrier, allowing things to pass in and out with little resistance.

 

As for Voya Nui, there's no reason why it couldn't still escape to Aqua Magna's surface in this version. Maybe the dimension still resembles the dome system, it's just situated in a much smaller GSR.

 

Matooti the Bionic Man took control through dark magic obviously. Also he's a gas so he could enter and exit the robot super easily.

[fishers64]

Never seen Doctor Who, but we're talking about something inside the pocket dimension busting its way through the dimensional barrier and the robot hull. It comes out of the pocket dimension, something it shouldn't be able to do, busts through the robot hull (which should have completely busted open its chest, given the differences in size) and exists in the "real world" without complication. 

 

It's like Incarceron - the tiny prison on a string that you can enter and exit through the magic chair of size transmutation. Only this time there is no magic chair and the inside prisoners punched a hole in the inside of the box. That's not going to make them grow bigger in terms of the real world. Voya Nui would be this tiny island that would bang against a huge robot hull - or if the pocket dimension was bigger, Voya Nui would be this giant island that carves this huge gaping hole...

[The 1st Shadow]

Never seen Doctor Who, but we're talking about something inside the pocket dimension busting its way through the dimensional barrier and the robot hull. It comes out of the pocket dimension, something it shouldn't be able to do, busts through the robot hull (which should have completely busted open its chest, given the differences in size) and exists in the "real world" without complication. 

 

It's like Incarceron - the tiny prison on a string that you can enter and exit through the magic chair of size transmutation. Only this time there is no magic chair and the inside prisoners punched a hole in the inside of the box. That's not going to make them grow bigger in terms of the real world. Voya Nui would be this tiny island that would bang against a huge robot hull - or if the pocket dimension was bigger, Voya Nui would be this giant island that carves this huge gaping hole...

Okay, think of a bubble. The structure of the GSR acts like the surface of the bubble, and contains all the space inside. In this case, the inside is of a far greater volume than the outside could presumably contain. However, a speck of dust inside the bubble can float close to the soapy surface, and even touch it. 

 

Actually, here. Try this:

 

 

What you see here is the TARDIS again. From the outside, it's a small box. On the inside, it's massive. Wandering around inside, you'd eventually come to an impassable wall. On the outside, this would be a relatively small distance. The separate dimension is tied to the interior of the object, but is not confined by it. So, from the inside, you can still come to the outside wall, but it takes longer on the inside. The door there is the access point--things can enter and exit, but the inner dimensions are directly tied to the object, not the reality beyond the confining walls.

 

Is that making any sense?

[fishers64]

Sort of. But if something is bigger in the secondary dimension than the primary, and busts their way out of it (if it actually can bust their way out) its size will remain the same, causing damage to the primary, or shrink to primary dimension size.

 

In VN's case, either would be inconsistent with the storyline portrayal (and probably result in VN or the bot's total destruction, neither of which happened).

[The 1st Shadow]

Sort of. But if something is bigger in the secondary dimension than the primary, and busts their way out of it (if it actually can bust their way out) its size will remain the same, causing damage to the primary, or shrink to primary dimension size.

 

In VN's case, either would be inconsistent with the storyline portrayal (and probably result in VN or the bot's total destruction, neither of which happened).

No, I mean the space inside is larger. Not the objects inside. I could walk in through the doors of the TARDIS and still remain the same size--I've just entered a secondary dimension contained within the walls of the interdimensional object. In this case, everything inside the MU dimension would be set to a size proportional to the external dimensions, only contained within a much larger space, accessible through the walls of the GSR. Follow?

[fishers64]

 

Sort of. But if something is bigger in the secondary dimension than the primary, and busts their way out of it (if it actually can bust their way out) its size will remain the same, causing damage to the primary, or shrink to primary dimension size.

 

In VN's case, either would be inconsistent with the storyline portrayal (and probably result in VN or the bot's total destruction, neither of which happened).

No, I mean the space inside is larger. Not the objects inside. I could walk in through the doors of the TARDIS and still remain the same size--I've just entered a secondary dimension contained within the walls of the interdimensional object. In this case, everything inside the MU dimension would be set to a size proportional to the external dimensions, only contained within a much larger space, accessible through the walls of the GSR. Follow?

Yes, but the point of the pocket dimension theory in the first place was so that the Matoran Universe could be bigger than the actual physical robot size. That would have to include things like continents and islands.

 

If the islands/continents are of the same size as they would have been if they weren't in a pocket dimension, then we don't need the pocket dimension theory to explain it - they are just in the bot at actual size.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

Sort of. But if something is bigger in the secondary dimension than the primary, and busts their way out of it (if it actually can bust their way out) its size will remain the same, causing damage to the primary, or shrink to primary dimension size.

 

In VN's case, either would be inconsistent with the storyline portrayal (and probably result in VN or the bot's total destruction, neither of which happened).

No, I mean the space inside is larger. Not the objects inside. I could walk in through the doors of the TARDIS and still remain the same size--I've just entered a secondary dimension contained within the walls of the interdimensional object. In this case, everything inside the MU dimension would be set to a size proportional to the external dimensions, only contained within a much larger space, accessible through the walls of the GSR. Follow?

Yes, but the point of the pocket dimension theory in the first place was so that the Matoran Universe could be bigger than the actual physical robot size. That would have to include things like continents and islands.

 

If the islands/continents are of the same size as they would have been if they weren't in a pocket dimension, then we don't need the pocket dimension theory to explain it - they are just in the bot at actual size.

 

Okay, good. Thought I was just rambling for a moment there.

 

I think what he's getting at is the fact that the way the robot is depicted, the interior (i.e in the major joints, would have to be completely solid to allow the robot full functionality. To account for the robot being fully functional while containing the MU, the robot is solid machine, with a pocket dimension tied into it's frame to accommodate the islands and their inhabitants.

[fishers64]

I thought he was just trying to make the bot smaller...*quotes FP*

Mata Nui is bigger on the inside...the Matoran Universe is a pocket dimension!

 

Why didn’t the writers themselves use that explanation? It would have been so simple.

 

The Matoran Universe being another dimension solves almost all the problems with Mata Nui’s size and scale.

 

And it's possible to make the robot mobile with "hollow legs". Frankly our bones have fluid-filled structures in them anyway...which explains the silver sea, me thinks.

 

Anyway, does my point about Voya Nui make any sense, or did that fly over everyone's heads and smash into the robot hull lol? 

[Ballom Nom Nom]

What if we could instead have better writing so that we don't need to make up extra dimensions for the story to work?

 

~B~

[fishers64]

What if we could instead have better writing so that we don't need to make up extra dimensions for the story to work?

 

~B~

Now, Ballom, that's no fun. We have to have giant robots, extra-dimensional wackadoodles, and crazy explosions and implosions. Otherwise we don't have an excuse to pay the special effects team.

 

It actually has nothing to do with bad writing - the written story itself never defined a size for the bot. It's actually a conflict between an obscure promotional image from 2001 and a Greg Answer ten years later. Such petty things are what debates are made of.

 

Personally I just chuck the former promotional image to the curb, claim it as outdated information that Greg retconned. It's easier than trying to do a bunch of math to get out of it or come up with wackadoodle explanations (bones did a good job, but I don't like his explanation for some reason so I just...do that.). 

[The 1st Shadow]

I thought he was just trying to make the bot smaller...*quotes FP*

Mata Nui is bigger on the inside...the Matoran Universe is a pocket dimension!

 

Why didn’t the writers themselves use that explanation? It would have been so simple.

 

The Matoran Universe being another dimension solves almost all the problems with Mata Nui’s size and scale.

 

And it's possible to make the robot mobile with "hollow legs". Frankly our bones have fluid-filled structures in them anyway...which explains the silver sea, me thinks.

 

Anyway, does my point about Voya Nui make any sense, or did that fly over everyone's heads and smash into the robot hull lol? 

Hm. I guess I kinda glazed over that bit. 

 

I suppose the domes and tunnels could be much smaller than I've always imagined them to be, giving the robot far more solid structure than I give it credit for.

 

Yeah, I got it. The way I was describing it, the island from the inner dimension (inside of a bubble) would have come close enough to the edge that it broke through the confining surface of the robot. Makes sense. 

 

But, in the end, I realize that while it would be cool to have a pocket dimension for it all, I think it's just simpler if we leave it as is.

[Banana Gunz]

Let's just... pretend. Yes, let's pretend everything is all fine and dandy and right with the MU, because let's be honest, there's no way any of us are gonna get a perfect explanation for this. The day I get a solid explanation for Kapura is the day I'll start talking about pocket dimensions.

[SailorQuaoar]

 

What if we could instead have better writing so that we don't need to make up extra dimensions for the story to work?

 

~B~

Now, Ballom, that's no fun. We have to have giant robots, extra-dimensional wackadoodles, and crazy explosions and implosions. Otherwise we don't have an excuse to pay the special effects team.

 

It actually has nothing to do with bad writing - the written story itself never defined a size for the bot. It's actually a conflict between an obscure promotional image from 2001 and a Greg Answer ten years later. Such petty things are what debates are made of.

 

Personally I just chuck the former promotional image to the curb, claim it as outdated information that Greg retconned. It's easier than trying to do a bunch of math to get out of it or come up with wackadoodle explanations (bones did a good job, but I don't like his explanation for some reason so I just...do that.). 

 

Bonkles is science-fantasy, so there are a few oddities we can explain away as magic and super tech. I'm ok with that to a point.

 

But fishers. dudette. Do you know how big 40 million feet is? It's really, really, really big. It's astronomically large. It's larger than the Earth.

Do you know how big Bara Magna would have to be in order for two Earth-sized robots to fight on its surface?

Writers can't just throw numbers around like that.

 

Found the image I wanted to use. Faber has the GSR at about 3,300 feet tall; still very large but not reality-breaking.

Most of Mata Nui's important islands are situated in his torso. As you can see here, his waist is so small and gappy that there's no room for a whole continent.

 

And for the robot to be able to move, his arms and legs would need to contain some kind of mobility mechanism, so no room for islands in there.

 

So what I propose is that the dimension is contained in Mata Nui's upper body while the limbs are pure machinery so he can move.

It's just as well that the only islands that were ever plot important were in his upper body.

 

I like the idea of the GSR; it's very fitting with the theme of Bionicle as well as drawing allusions to the Titans and World Turtles of ancient mythology.

 

Someone I know is so frustrated with the very existence of the GSR that she made an AU where the MU is just islands on Aqua Magna; I don't want to do that. The GSR works; it just needs a bit of tweaking.

[MaksDudekVA]

What if protodermis is the key? It being a unique substance and all, it could allow things like this to happen (considering Mata Nui was made out of the stuff, and Spherus Magna's core was energized protodermis). 

 

Let's remember Greg's quote about the laws of physics and Bionicle. "Real life physics don't apply in BIONICLE, unless scientists discovered Protodermis yesterday and I wasn't told about it." - Greg Farshtey 

[Mjolnitor]

What if protodermis is the key? It being a unique substance and all, it could allow things like this to happen (considering Mata Nui was made out of the stuff, and Spherus Magna's core was energized protodermis). 

Protodermis is just an excuse which should not been happened in the first place.

[SailorQuaoar]

 

What if protodermis is the key? It being a unique substance and all, it could allow things like this to happen (considering Mata Nui was made out of the stuff, and Spherus Magna's core was energized protodermis). 

Protodermis is just an excuse which should not been happened in the first place.

 

Protodermis is just a fancy name for mana. At least that's how I think of it. The Agori call it "lifeblood".

[Mjolnitor]

 

 

What if protodermis is the key? It being a unique substance and all, it could allow things like this to happen (considering Mata Nui was made out of the stuff, and Spherus Magna's core was energized protodermis). 

Protodermis is just an excuse which should not been happened in the first place.

 

Protodermis is just a fancy name for mana. At least that's how I think of it. The Agori call it "lifeblood".

 

...except of the case when literally everything is made of it.

[fishers64]

But fishers. dudette. Do you know how big 40 million feet is? It's really, really, really big. It's astronomically large. It's larger than the Earth.

I just did the math in another topic. While 40 million is the size of the diameter of the earth, it's bigger than its actual size (surface area).

Do you know how big Bara Magna would have to be in order for two Earth-sized robots to fight on its surface?

Writers can't just throw numbers around like that.

Don't ask me, I haven't met any Earth-sized giant robots, and I'm no physicist.

 

I am a writer though. 45,000,456,942.0 giant spider faces ate 40,375,148,945,487,623.25 slices of pie last week. I joined them for approximately 4.423 seconds before I had to go into another room because of how unpalatable the sight was. The pie was delicious.

 

And for the robot to be able to move, his arms and legs would need to contain some kind of mobility mechanism, so no room for islands in there.

 

So what I propose is that the dimension is contained in Mata Nui's upper body while the limbs are pure machinery so he can move.

It's just as well that the only islands that were ever plot important were in his upper body.

I think the mobility mechanisms and the universe coexist just fine in the arms. In fact Matoran, as maintenance workers, would have to maintain machinery in the arms, so it makes sense that the universe exists there, as opposed to the alternative. 

 

This brings in yet another objection against the pocket dimension theory - the purpose of the Matoran in the robot was to maintain Mata Nui's systems. How are they going to do that from inside a pocket dimension?

[Mjolnitor]

Do you know how big Bara Magna would have to be in order for two Earth-sized robots to fight on its surface?

Writers can't just throw numbers around like that.

Don't ask me, I haven't met any Earth-sized giant robots, and I'm no physicist.

 

I am a writer though. 45,000,456,942.0 giant spider faces ate 40,375,148,945,487,623.25 slices of pie last week. I joined them for approximately 4.423 seconds before I had to go into another room because of how unpalatable the sight was. The pie was delicious.

 

What. Just... what.

Are you sure that you're really a writer?

[fishers64]

 

Do you know how big Bara Magna would have to be in order for two Earth-sized robots to fight on its surface?

Writers can't just throw numbers around like that.

Don't ask me, I haven't met any Earth-sized giant robots, and I'm no physicist.

 

I am a writer though. 45,000,456,942.0 giant spider faces ate 40,375,148,945,487,623.25 slices of pie last week. I joined them for approximately 4.423 seconds before I had to go into another room because of how unpalatable the sight was. The pie was delicious.

 

What. Just... what.

Are you sure that you're really a writer?

 

Yes, sure as the sunrise. XD Though I usually do not include sentences like that in my work, and Mr. Farshtey most certainly didn't. But I am certainly capable of throwing numbers around like nobody's pet skull spider. 

 

In any case, a 40 million foot tall robot to house to two significantly sized landmasses makes a whole lot more sense than that. 

[Mjolnitor]

Yes, sure as the sunrise. XD Though I usually do not include sentences like that in my work, and Mr. Farshtey most certainly didn't. But I am certainly capable of throwing numbers around like nobody's pet skull spider. 

 

What was the purpose of... that?

[fishers64]

 

Yes, sure as the sunrise. XD Though I usually do not include sentences like that in my work, and Mr. Farshtey most certainly didn't. But I am certainly capable of throwing numbers around like nobody's pet skull spider. 

 

What was the purpose of... that?

 

Miss Quaroar said that writers can't throw numbers around. I just proved that they can.

[Mjolnitor]

 

 

Yes, sure as the sunrise. XD Though I usually do not include sentences like that in my work, and Mr. Farshtey most certainly didn't. But I am certainly capable of throwing numbers around like nobody's pet skull spider. 

 

What was the purpose of... that?

 

Miss Quaroar said that writers can't throw numbers around. I just proved that they can.

 

It wasn't a very smart move, y'know?

Do you know that you looked like a jester?

[Regitnui]

I think there was indeed some jest intended. I prefer to have rough estimates at the very least before I throw measurements around.

[SailorQuaoar]

 

 

Yes, sure as the sunrise. XD Though I usually do not include sentences like that in my work, and Mr. Farshtey most certainly didn't. But I am certainly capable of throwing numbers around like nobody's pet skull spider. 

 

What was the purpose of... that?

 

Miss Quaroar said that writers can't throw numbers around. I just proved that they can.

 

But that's bad writing. Everything a writer puts in a story should serve a purpose. It should make a certain amount of sense.

[bonesiii]

This is an old idea, and it's true that it would have been possible, in theory, since evidently access to pocket dimensions like the Field of Shadows was available to the Great Beings. There's one simple problem with it -- the whole point of the Matoran and other beings living inside the giant was to be maintenance workers of that giant robot's inner workings.
 
While in their normal life they only really noticed their life-supporting domed environments, their work had direct physical effects on the machinery of the giant, and this is by far the simplest explanation to tell fans for why there's a universe inside there, so probably the best idea.
 
Yes, you can come up with "patches" to work around this and the other many problems, but it's generally a bad idea to use explanations that require "patching".
 
 
This is basically my answer to most of the arguments in this topic. I'll go through them briefly.
 
But first, notice that the only real "noticeable" problem mentioned in the first post that the pocket dimension is supposed to solve is the size of Spherus Magna. But it's been demonstrated in many topics including some recent ones that the size of SM is not a problem at all. First, it was never defined, so artistic license can easily be appealed to, and second, until very recently, the door was left open for the art to be accurate but something wonky about physics being the case... which is perfectly normal in Bionicle (elemental powers, etc.), so "(real world) terrestrial planets don't get that big" logic doesn't actually work, because Bionicle planets could. Especially since SM has an EP core, and who knows how that could affect things.
 
(More specific ideas have been discussed in past topics and I'd rather not go too off-topic here by rehashing them.)
 
So, since there's no real problem there, I don't think it's worth creating gobs of other problems to then try to patch up. The simple solution is that the size of SM is actually not relevant (and either option works anyways), and the interior of the giant really is that big. This is best for fictional purposes too, as trying to "tame" it would make the "unimaginably vast" feeling lessened. Having trouble grasping how huge it is, is actually good for that.
 
There's also the "it's been done" factor, which makes all these "look at these other examples in fiction" ironically work against themselves.
 
Plus, maybe the biggest, it breaks down the whole concept behind Bionicle of Makuta being cancer in Mata Nui's body and Toa being medicine going inside. Now the analogy must be stretched so that Mata Nui has an actual body that's okay, and a "parallel" body that's larger and contains people. The idea of those people being analogous to tiny cells in our bodies doesn't really work with this, especially if the point is to shrink Mata Nui!
 
 
Now to specific arguments:
 
From the OP:

-To be clear, nothing wrong with changing it for a fanfic. This post is meant to be answering why the main story is best how it is, on this issue. But the reasons it is best canonically need not apply to a fanfic; different audience.

-When alternate dimensions have been appealed to elsewhere in the story, it hasn't been called "simple", for good reason. I'd think something that might actually be able to be built in real life (albeit not fitting as well on the real Earth) would be the simple one.

-And the other dimensions thing has been widely disliked, so probably not a good idea for audience-based reasons again.

Replies:

-VN is definitely a major problem to the idea, as it was not intentional. Mata Nui actually isn't, since Bohrok were designed to exit to the face, so methods of getting from the pocket world to the face would have existed.

-Teridax taking over isn't really a big problem either, since presumably everything about Mata Nui having control over the interior would remain so. A bridge between the two worlds there would make sense. However, both of these "not problems" do require a bit of patching and explaining, so still problems... just minor.

-Adding TARDIS-walls to this idea actually is another big patch, and is not the same as the "simple"(-ish) pocket dimensions we've seen in Bionicle. You couldn't physically ram into walls in the Zivon's realm and end up in the MU. So now you're adding TWO things to explain. Pocket dimensions are entirely next to the main dimension. The Tardis is more like "compressed space." (Though it could of course travel through time and space and even to another dimension (accidentally).) More of a squished sponge than a pocket.

Those work great for Doctor Who, because they're central to the concept. Not so for Bionicle.

-This line of explanation also forgets that if we're appealing to "giant-focused messing with physics", versus SM-focused, why not go much simpler and just say Mata Nui controls gravity and such so his size isn't a problem?

Since Greg seems to have gone the "SM size is artistic license" route now, that may actually be the case, and we know Mata Nui has such powers.
 

Found the image I wanted to use. Faber has the GSR at about 3,300 feet tall; still very large but not reality-breaking.
Most of Mata Nui's important islands are situated in his torso. As you can see here, his waist is so small and gappy that there's no room for a whole continent.

 

Right -- which is why going with Faber's concept idea probably doesn't work, and might be part of why Greg went with a much larger number.

Remember that concept art is just that -- throwing ideas out, which often will be modified before a final version is chosen.

Edit: Mjol, can we please not go down your anti-protodermis rabbit hole here, since it's off-topic? Short answer, though, is just saying it's a bad idea doesn't prove that true. (But I don't see how just saying "protodermis makes it possible" explains how it would work.)

 

Also, to the "throwing around numbers" idea -- actually, if there's a good reason why the number isn't a problem, "throwing it around" actually IS good writing, if the reason for throwing it does something for your story you want (like helping the vast feeling, and having room for continents). And to clarify, Greg DID confirm SM is larger than Earth, and that the reaction to gravity portrayed may be artistic lisense, but also turned down anything odd with the planet's gravity itself. So the answer seems to be a bit of both, with the giant being the size described. Which does work just fine, just takes a bit of thought.

 

For example, if it really doesn't matter if there are two people in the background in a story's scene, or twenty, picking a number at random is okay for a story. (And actually, throwing tons of effort into trying to statistically calculate a number based on tons of factors instead would be a waste of the writer's time.)

 

Likewise, since an enormously giant giant was possible for Bionicle (which isn't in our world and not subject to all its rules), picking a number that factored for real-world design of every feature wouldn't really have been wise for the goals LEGO had in mind for this story, which wasn't to create a totally realistic "hard science fiction" story, as fun as it can be for some of us to see if we can speculate ways to make it work for that. It would have missed the point of why Bionicle had a story and why the size was being chosen.

Edited April 4, 2015 by bonesiii

[evil_jaga_genius]

 

Matooti the Bionic Man took control through dark magic obviously. Also he's a gas so he could enter and exit the robot super easily.

 

This just made my day right here.

 

 

*Off Topic sirens start blaring*

 

Anyway, I like the idea.. there are you happy now?

 

*Sirens stop blaring*

 

Thank you.

Edited April 4, 2015 by evil_jaga_genius

[fishers64]

It wasn't a very smart move, y'know?

 

 

Do you know that you looked like a jester?

I am pointing out the absurdity in her statement. If that makes me a jester, than so be it. 

 

If you are offended or otherwise irked, then I apologize. But I am quite well aware that I may be perceived in a negative light at any given moment, and trying to insure against negative perceptions is a waste of time. There's always somebody. That doesn't mean that I actively go out looking for it, but telling a well-intended joke to highlight an absurd claim is generally better than getting into an argument over it. 

But that's bad writing. Everything a writer puts in a story should serve a purpose. It should make a certain amount of sense.

Indeed. And in this case I'm willing to give Greg the benefit of the doubt, that he had a purpose to the 40 million foot number and that he (and the rest of the members of the story team) actually put some thought into it, and that it can be explained without resorting to pocket dimensions. (Unlike my example/absurd joke. ) The number actually makes sense, if you disregard the other outdated stuff that contradicts it and/or come up with an unproblematic explanation. 

 

In further point, the pocket dimension "solution" actually causes more problems than it solves (namely Voya Nui and Matoran maintenance stuff, and possibly other stuff bones just pointed out).

[SailorQuaoar]

 

But that's bad writing. Everything a writer puts in a story should serve a purpose. It should make a certain amount of sense.

Indeed. And in this case I'm willing to give Greg the benefit of the doubt, that he had a purpose to the 40 million foot number and that he (and the rest of the members of the story team) actually put some thought into it, and that it can be explained without resorting to pocket dimensions. (Unlike my example/absurd joke. ) The number actually makes sense, if you disregard the other outdated stuff that contradicts it and/or come up with an unproblematic explanation.

Greg has always been bad with numbers and scale. I don't know why people keep asking him to do math.

The GSR's height is a sloppy piece of writing. Greg probably just thought of a really big number without bothering to look up just how big 40 million feet is.

 

A terrestrial planet cannot be the size of Jupiter. And even if that was somehow possible, the gravity on such a planet would be so immense that nothing could live there. Even a planet that's only 20% larger than the Earth has significantly stronger gravity.

 

Stop defending Greg's sloppy worldbuilding. We can still be Bionicle fans while also recognizing that there were some really stupid things that made it into canon. Greg is far from perfect. He's a good writer, but don't ever ask him to give you measurements.

 

Also, if the GSR really was 40 million feet tall, the island of Mata Nui would be about the size of Australia. And we know it's not that big.

 

Faber's measurements are the only ones that even make sense in the "Mata Nui Rising" video.

Mata Nui is small enough to not completely envelop the surface of Aqua Magna when he awakes. If the GSR was the size of the Earth in that video, it would make Aqua Magna at least double the size of Earth. Which makes Spherus Magna ridiculously, impossibly large.

[bonesiii]

Greg has always been bad with numbers and scale. I don't know why people keep asking him to do math.

The GSR's height is a sloppy piece of writing. Greg probably just thought of a really big number without bothering to look up just how big 40 million feet is.

 

...

 

Stop defending Greg's sloppy worldbuilding.

This is circular reasoning. Whether it was sloppy is exactly what's being debated. And I'm the first to call him on it when it legitimately is, like my detailed explanation of why his retcon of the Shattering moons into planets didn't make sense.

 

This one does work. It's right on the edge of what works, but it works. The idea that it doesn't is a fan invention based on not thinking it through carefully. But there's been many topics where we've done that over the years, and my post above summarizes the findings.

 

 

 

A terrestrial planet cannot be the size of Jupiter. And even if that was somehow possible, the gravity on such a planet would be so immense that nothing could live there. Even a planet that's only 20% larger than the Earth has significantly stronger gravity.

Again:

 

1) This isn't the terrestrial world (as in Earth's world), and appealing blindly to Earth's (our world's) physics alone as if that proved how things must work in a fictional universe is not a good argument. It can be part of a good argument if you consider all factors, but that alone is not enough. And:

 

2) Greg didn't say how much larger it is, only that it's larger. (Plus, this is alien biology. However, I have not liked to appeal to that explanation in the past. Worth mentioning that fans have brought it up though.)

 

My old main theory, incidentally, was that the EP transformed the core (as EP either transforms or destroys), to absorb any gravity over Earth levels. This would have solved all issues just fine and would fit Bionicle physics normally. Greg has turned it down, but also left room for the other solution -- that the art showing it near Jupiter's size is simply artistic license.

 

I do agree Greg wasn't thinking likely of gravity physics and that route of math when he came up with the number, but see the last comment edited into my first post on why that makes sense for a "comic-book physics" toyline. However, he was likely thinking of some things, like making it really hard to grasp how large it is, which makes sense for the purposes of it. And before we've seen him talk some of the math he's looked up, and I've usually found that they work out, albeit sometimes a little off.

 

 

 

Also, if the GSR really was 40 million feet tall, the island of Mata Nui would be [much bigger].

 

I've debunked this too; see this image. Both of these arguments are just fan myths that have been going around (and being debunked over and over).

 

As for the specific math of Australia, I haven't calced that, admittedly, but there's really no reason for a problem either way. If it approaches the smallest real-world continent in size, so be it. It's a really big island, then, and it was called one in-story. If we don't enlarge it, then the eye-holes still do fit underneath it, just not the sides of the face, which don't matter. Not worth retconning over.

 

Faber's measurements are the only ones that even make sense in the "Mata Nui Rising" video.

But have other issues as pointed out, like not fitting the idea of there being continents inside the giant. And this argument forgets the many other examples of contradictions between different artistic portrayals in Bionicle, many far, far more blatant than this. Face it -- the animators weren't worrying about exact sizes.

 

Mata Nui is small enough to not completely envelop the surface of Aqua Magna when he awakes. If the GSR was the size of the Earth in that video, it would make Aqua Magna at least double the size of Earth. Which makes Spherus Magna ridiculously, impossibly large.

All of this assumes the artists were worried about portraying the "actual canon size." They weren't.

Edited April 5, 2015 by bonesiii

[Jobber]

Speakings of the Mata Nui Robot's size, how did Aqua Magna remain intact after said giant robot crashed into it? Something larger than the Earth itself has to cause some serious planet damage.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Anonymous User

[fishers64]

Also, if the GSR really was 40 million feet tall, the island of Mata Nui would be about the size of Australia. And we know it's not that big.

The giant robot dwarfs the size of Australia by a considerable amount:

 

The size of Australia is 2.97 million square miles according to Goooogle. That's approximately 15,681.6 million square feet.

 

Now I'm going to go for an approximation and take the square root. That's 125.2262 million feet.

 

The size of our robot, 40 million feet, doesn't even come close to that size.

 

Therefore, I hypostulate that continent is being used as a relative term in regards to Mata Nui, Metru Nui, and Voya Nui respectively. (Unless I got the math wrong, as usual, which would be classic fishers. )

Someone came along and verified that math, though. So there's no way Mata Nui is anywhere near the size of Australia. Neither is said giant robot anywhere near that size.

 

On the planet's size:  

 

 

The diameter of the earth is 41,807,040 feet.

It may just be that I can't do geometry - it may be possible that a sphere with a diameter of 41 million feet could have a 125 million foot long landmass stretched on it. In which case my calculator doesn't lie, but my brain does. 

 

The formula for surface area of a sphere is 2pi r^2: 41, 807, 040/2 = 20,903,520 ft for the radius. Square that, and you get some HUGE number (4.36957 x 10^14 ft squared) and then double it and multiply it by pi, and I get 2.74548 X 10^15 ft. 

 

Now I have to put it back in terms of millions of feet, so I divide that by a million, and I get 2745482735 million ft. Therefore a line of 125 million ft on the surface wouldn't even make a scratch. 

 

So far, I guess I'm right.  Giant robot, I relegate you to puny-lands.

 

There's no reason to shrink the robot. It's not going to cause a problem if it crashes into an Earth-sized celestial body.

[Jobber]

 

 

Faber's measurements are the only ones that even make sense in the "Mata Nui Rising" video.

Mata Nui is small enough to not completely envelop the surface of Aqua Magna when he awakes. If the GSR was the size of the Earth in that video, it would make Aqua Magna at least double the size of Earth. Which makes Spherus Magna ridiculously, impossibly large.

 

Rocky planets with 10 Earth masses have be found, FYI.

[bonesiii]

Speakings of the Mata Nui Robot's size, how did Aqua Magna remain intact after said giant robot crashed into it? Something larger than the Earth itself has to cause some serious planet damage.

Doesn't really matter -- it was uninhabited. But I think, along the lines of my gravity control mention earlier, the giant probably had systems, probably somewhat or fully automated, to minimize his effect on planets. He was designed to spy on them stealthily, after all. So things like absorbing excess water so no flooding, and probably a cloaking device for landings and takeoffs, and maybe inertial dampening fields, would likely be included, and might still be functioning to a degree even during the Great Cataclysm. (Just as the internal versions probably were, which would probably be why the impact caused only survivable quakes rather than instant death of everybody from a single superquake impact.)

 

 

fishers, you lost me a bit with that math, both in the original topic and here, to be honest. I'm not sure why square miles and surface area is being considered? How long is Australia, directly, in feet? And is RS's quoted feet conversion for Earth's diameter accurate?

[fishers64]

How long is Australia, directly, in feet?

10,433,071.2 ft up and-down ways, and 13, 451, 444 ft side-to-side ways. 

 

From 3180 km up-and-down ways, and 4100 km side-to-side ways. Conversion Here

 

Sources for kilometers: One, Two, Three

And is RS's quoted feet conversion for Earth's diameter accurate?

It's 41,807,040 ft.

 

From 7918 miles. Conversion here

Source

 

I'm not sure why square miles and surface area is being considered?

Because what I googled first was "size of Australia" which gave me the area. I then converted that figure to feet, and took the square root of it to find the length of Australia. 

 

I considered surface area to compare the giant robot size to the size of the earth. 

[Akavakaku]

Maybe it's not so much a pocket dimension as space-warping? Like, the inside of the box is still attached to the outside, but it has a greater volume.

[Cwog]

Man, some of these debates about gen1 just get so complicated and over analyzing. Yeesh, are we really debating the size of a giant robot that is A) in the story of a kids' toy line and B) not even in the canon of that toy line anymore?