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What happened to the copies of BIONICLE: Legend of mata nui?


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I contacted Red Quark and he hinted that there may be new videos in the future, for what it's worth.

 

When was that?

 

At around the beginning of the year, I'll check tomorrow.

 

 

Wait you were in contact with the guy who currently owns a copy of this CD? And noone has thought to ask him to burn an ISO? I don't know about the rest of you lot but I'd pay for him to send me a copy burnt onto a CD without a moment's hesitation. Once he's made one copy we can make as many more as we like. I know a a few coders and small time devvy types who could take a look at the code and I bet other people do too. If this hasn't already been brought up then I'd suggest it needs doing, like now :P

 

People have always been hesitant to distribute copies of this game. It's probably because LEGO owns the rights to it and will until the rights expire. However, one could argue since the game was never actually published, no one would care. The concept of copyrighted software being freely distributed without the copyright holder doing anything to prevent it is called "abandonware." So since the game was abandoned before it was even finished, it probably qualifies as such.

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Wait you were in contact with the guy who currently owns a copy of this CD?

 

He was in contact with someone who is themselves in contact with the best-known CD owner.

 

 

 

People have always been hesitant to distribute copies of this game. It's probably because LEGO owns the rights to it and will until the rights expire. However, one could argue since the game was never actually published, no one would care. The concept of copyrighted software being freely distributed without the copyright holder doing anything to prevent it is called "abandonware." So since the game was abandoned before it was even finished, it probably qualifies as such.

 

I'm afraid it's not that simple. As long as Lego have the rights to Bionicle, anything made under its name belongs to them, regardless of whether they can realistically sell or even finish it. And when asked about allowing the release of the game, Lego said (IIRC) that they wouldn't give permission for that to happen until (at the very least) Deep Brick comes forward.

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To be honest, this guy is posting videos of the game publicly without giving any proof that he owns a 'legitimate' copy or how he got it. Given that we don't know where ANY of the copies are, it's not unthinkable that someone has a whole bunch of them locked up and forgotten somewhere. Lego is very unlikely to care about such a trivial thing anyway as they stand to gain nothing either way, but even if they did get a bee in their bonnet about it what can they do without proof of wrongdoing regarding an unfinished demo that's over a decade old? :P


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To be honest, this guy is posting videos of the game publicly without giving any proof that he owns a 'legitimate' copy or how he got it. Given that we don't know where ANY of the copies are, it's not unthinkable that someone has a whole bunch of them locked up and forgotten somewhere. Lego is very unlikely to care about such a trivial thing anyway as they stand to gain nothing either way, but even if they did get a bee in their bonnet about it what can they do without proof of wrongdoing regarding an unfinished demo that's over a decade old? :P

I think it's likely that the only entity who owns more than one disc is LEGO themselves.

 

I'm afraid it's not that simple. As long as Lego have the rights to Bionicle, anything made under its name belongs to them, regardless of whether they can realistically sell or even finish it.

Someone else owning the rights to an unfinished game doesn't always stop people who have a copy from releasing it. Rare started a Game Boy Advance game called Diddy Kong Pilot that was eventually reworked into another GBA game called Banjo Pilot. That didn't stop not one, but two distinctly different versions of the game from being leaked to the public by private collectors

.

And when asked about allowing the release of the game, Lego said (IIRC) that they wouldn't give permission for that to happen until (at the very least) Deep Brick comes forward.

This, however, is not something I was aware of, and it changes things. If LEGO made a statement saying they didn't want him releasing the game without coming forward, they probably mean it.

Edited by Cheesy Mac n Cheese

My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water

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And when asked about allowing the release of the game, Lego said (IIRC) that they wouldn't give permission for that to happen until (at the very least) Deep Brick comes forward.

This, however, is not something I was aware of, and it changes things. If LEGO made a statement saying they didn't want him releasing the game without coming forward, they probably mean it.

 

Once again however, there is no way for Lego to implicate this disk holder as the person who released the files or CD in the event it somehow went public. Unless they have solid proof that only ONE copy was ever unaccounted for in the history of the game and that it now belongs to this man they can't prove a single thing. Do they even know who he is? Where he lives? Or is he just one of a million anonymous online presences? He could very easily create a new online persona and share anything he wants with the world at large then return to his own life as if nothing had ever happened. I'm sorry to say that legally speaking, Lego with all it's wealth and power can do nothing to stop this game leaking if that is the intent of a single person who currently holds a copy.

 

Wait a minute, I'm not sorry to say that at all. It's our only chance to see it! :P


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Certain files from the CD (I believe it was the compressed data for Onua's level) have already been more or less released to the public, though if any of those formats have been identified/cracked is anyone's guess...

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And when asked about allowing the release of the game, Lego said (IIRC) that they wouldn't give permission for that to happen until (at the very least) Deep Brick comes forward.

 

If I remember correctly that was merely a response to an email from a fan asking if Lego would mind the files being released to the public. Of course they would say no to a question like that, but it's not like they made a public announcement directed to anyone who owns one of the Beta discs.

Retailers leak photos of upcoming Lego sets that aren't meant to be seen by the public all the time (wich is probably much worse for Lego than the release of a 15 year old, unfinished game) and nothing happens to them. The worst Lego could do is to take the game down from the Internet. I highly doubt that the release of the discs content would cause any legal issues.

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If I remember correctly that was merely a response to an email from a fan asking if Lego would mind the files being released to the public.

 

Do you remember? This was in 2010 on the old forum, and you didn't join until last year.

 

And I'm fairly sure the statement was about distribution of the whole of the CD.

 

 

 

it's not like they made a public announcement directed to anyone who owns one of the Beta discs.

 

There was a beta test announced, which has led to the belief that CDs were sent out to testers, but that test was never carried out. Any CDs today belong either to ex-Saffire employees or people who obtained them from those.

 

 

 

Retailers leak photos of upcoming Lego sets that aren't meant to be seen by the public all the time (wich is probably much worse for Lego than the release of a 15 year old, unfinished game) and nothing happens to them.

 

The big difference is that those images and their sets will be made public soon anyway, whereas this game (following the decision to cancel it) isn't meant to be public ever.

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If Lego didn't care enough to finish the game 15 years ago I highly doubt they'll care enough to censor it now. Besides, you can't censor the internet anyway... It's just not possible...

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The big difference is that those images and their sets will be made public soon anyway, whereas this game (following the decision to cancel it) isn't meant to be public ever.

 

But the those images are still way more harmful to Lego because they show competing companies upcoming products long before they are released.

Why would anyone apart from the few people who want to play the game even care about something that was supposed to come out nearly 14 years ago?

 

Also, I've been reading the forums long before I decided to make an account. So yes, I do remember.

Edited by doodleloot
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I don't know or claim to know Lego's reasons for their stance, whether any release of the game would be legal or not, or what action Lego or anyone from Saffire might take in the event of that. I'm just going on what I remember from the topic on the old forum.

 

And yes, the images do show the competition what Lego's got planned, but with Lego now so rich and successful I doubt it has any real effect.

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I cant seem to remember the source of this, but LOMN was only compatible with Windows 98 SE or Windows ME. The OS in the video is Windows ME clearly running at a fairly low resolution, though that is probably just a personal preference of DeepBrick because I highly doubt that LOMN would run at a resolution that low. At any rate, this shows that LOMN can run on ME, so there's a mental note for us, however insignificant.

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LEGO's official statements on the release of the game were variations of "We will not officially sanction the release of whatever it is you are talking about." This is obviously a blanket statement giving to all official requests for just about anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you got a similar response asking if you could use promotional images in fan art, upload video game recordings, or any number of other things that are generally considered fair use. In fairness though, LEGO has to say things like this from a legal perspective, because the copyright system is so broken saying "yes" could have repercussions from copyright trolls.

 

What I would consider more important is the unofficial things LEGO employees said, which generally carried a "we don't care about whatever it is you are talking about, and we're really not sure why you do either." vibe.
 
 

Certain files from the CD (I believe it was the compressed data for Onua's level) have already been more or less released to the public, though if any of those formats have been identified/cracked is anyone's guess...

 

onua.blk was cracked by myself some time ago, and with it any other .blk files the game may contain. It contains a bunch of old DirectX .x files and a bunch of other files, but further reversing of the files within will require a copy of the game to test with.

Edited by JrMasterModelBuilder
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LEGO's official statements on the release of the game were variations of "We will not officially sanction the release of whatever it is you are talking about." This is obviously a blanket statement giving to all official requests for just about anything.

 

I know the initial responses were from people who had no knowledge of the game (hardly surprising after almost ten years) but I'm pretty sure we did eventually get a statement from someone who knew what we were asking about, and it was basically "no, unless the CD owner contacts us himself."

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LEGO's official statements on the release of the game were variations of "We will not officially sanction the release of whatever it is you are talking about." This is obviously a blanket statement giving to all official requests for just about anything. I wouldn't be surprised if you got a similar response asking if you could use promotional images in fan art, upload video game recordings, or any number of other things that are generally considered fair use. In fairness though, LEGO has to say things like this from a legal perspective, because the copyright system is so broken saying "yes" could have repercussions from copyright trolls.

 

What's I would consider more important is the unofficial things LEGO employees said, which generally carried a "we don't care about whatever it is you are talking about, and we're really not sure why you do either." vibe.

 

 

Certain files from the CD (I believe it was the compressed data for Onua's level) have already been more or less released to the public, though if any of those formats have been identified/cracked is anyone's guess...

 

onua.blk was cracked by myself some time ago, and with it any other .blk files the game may contain. It contains a bunch of old DirectX .x files and a bunch of other files, but further reversing of the files within will require a copy of the game to test with.

Literally every time that I have called Lego, I am put on hold for 20 minutes at a time a transferred from department to department only to be told in brief, "Sometimes we don't finish a game because it does not meet our expectations, or is not working out in development. Did you know that Bionicle is back here is 2015 and will get it's own games? Thanks for calling.

Edited by Barad-dur
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I still don't understand why people are making this out to be such a huge legal issue. I'm pretty sure Lego don't care what happens with this software and even if they do what can they do? It all comes down to the person with a copy of the game and what they choose to do with it. There are plenty of ways to stay anonymous on the internet!

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Yeah, what's the big deal? The beta discs are 15 years old. It was never sold. There is no profit for LEGO to lose if it's leaked. I doubt there are many people working with LEGO who remember the game well, if they remember it at all.

 

It's a bit paranoid to think that LEGO will hunt down and ruin anyone who dares to reveal any info or files about this unpublished, unfinished, unimportant, unwanted, unacknowledged yet fascinating game.

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LEGO's official statements on the release of the game were variations of "We will not officially sanction the release of whatever it is you are talking about." This is obviously a blanket statement giving to all official requests for just about anything.

 

I know the initial responses were from people who had no knowledge of the game (hardly surprising after almost ten years) but I'm pretty sure we did eventually get a statement from someone who knew what we were asking about, and it was basically "no, unless the CD owner contacts us himself."

 

 

I don't know that they actually knew what we were talking about, so much as they were willing to conceded the possibility that whatever it was we were talking about might exist for the sake of moving the converstation forward. Anyway, yes, that's one of the official statements they gave after being pushed into giving a statement.

 

 

Yeah, what's the big deal? The beta discs are 15 years old. It was never sold. There is no profit for LEGO to lose if it's leaked. I doubt there are many people working with LEGO who remember the game well, if they remember it at all.

 

It's a bit paranoid to think that LEGO will hunt down and ruin anyone who dares to reveal any info or files about this unpublished, unfinished, unimportant, unwanted, unacknowledged yet fascinating game.

 

It's really hard to imaging LEGO, or whatever is left of Safire, sueing anyone over uploading the game. At this point, I would question either companies ability to prove they were even creating the game. And even if they could, what would they sue for? Damages? Against an unreleased title with a marketable value of $0? Since they have already made it very clear they will not be releasing the game, it would be even harder to argue the release of the game would cause any damages. I know LEGO said they don't want it released because they think it wouldn't reflect the quality standards, but the few people who would download it should be able to understand that. Plus, LEGO has an image to protect, and it doesn't look good to go suing people.

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I don't know that they actually knew what we were talking about, so much as they were willing to conceded the possibility that whatever it was we were talking about might exist for the sake of moving the converstation forward. Anyway, yes, that's one of the official statements they gave after being pushed into giving a statement.

 

It'd be interesting to know what response we might get now, assuming there's still anyone at Lego who knows what we mean. They could easily be more generous about it after almost five years, but then the Bionicle name now being back in use possibly complicates things. They might not see the difference between something made for the first run and something for the second.

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I don't know that they actually knew what we were talking about, so much as they were willing to conceded the possibility that whatever it was we were talking about might exist for the sake of moving the converstation forward. Anyway, yes, that's one of the official statements they gave after being pushed into giving a statement.

 

It'd be interesting to know what response we might get now, assuming there's still anyone at Lego who knows what we mean. They could easily be more generous about it after almost five years, but then the Bionicle name now being back in use possibly complicates things. They might not see the difference between something made for the first run and something for the second.

 

This.

 

I think they would be far less generous now if someone was to ask for official permissions for such things. But then again who needs official permission? The game is clearly abandonware anyway so I'm not sure why this speculative debate is still ongoing. Lego did not, does not, and will not ever care about the future of this game. 

 

"Abandonware is a product, typically software, ignored by its owner and manufacturer, and for which no product support is available. Although such software is usually still under copyright, the owner may not be tracking or enforcing copyright violations. Abandonware is one case of the general concept of orphan works."

Edited by Munty
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I agree that it's a little paranoid to be worrying about copyright on this game at this point, though we're not the ones to convince, it's Deep Brick/MarkofWherever if anything :P

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What country is the guy in? Maybe he'd feel happier handing over a USB stick to someone in person, if it stays offline it's completely untraceable. That said though he could easily mail it to someone right now (snail I mean) I'm pretty sure I already said I'd pay for the privilege but it bears repeating :P


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Now that I think about it, there's an actual word for what this game is: Vaporware.

 

Vaporware is a product announced to the public but never released to them. It is also typically never officially canceled. I'm not sure whether LoMN was officially cancelled or not though.

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Vaporware is a product announced to the public but never released to them. It is also typically never officially canceled. I'm not sure whether LoMN was officially cancelled or not though.

 

No, not officially. But it was even advertised in one of the comics. Masks of Time were manufactured to be sold along with the game. It's not like it was a big secret.

 

But LEGO were probably too embarrassed to admit that a game for a brand new line had to be cancelled... it would lower expectations for consumers for what BIONICLE had to offer in the future and might have hurt the line. Better to stay quiet and let everyone forget about it...

 

Everyone except us, of course.

 

 

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Vaporware is a product announced to the public but never released to them. It is also typically never officially canceled. I'm not sure whether LoMN was officially cancelled or not though.

 

No, not officially. But it was even advertised in one of the comics. Masks of Time were manufactured to be sold along with the game. It's not like it was a big secret.

 

But LEGO were probably too embarrassed to admit that a game for a brand new line had to be cancelled... it would lower expectations for consumers for what BIONICLE had to offer in the future and might have hurt the line. Better to stay quiet and let everyone forget about it...

 

Everyone except us, of course.

 

LOMN was officially cancelled. See here: http://www.maskofdestiny.com/article.asp?i=6533

Edited by Barad-dur
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I contacted Red Quark and he hinted that there may be new videos in the future, for what it's worth.

 

When was that?

 

At around the beginning of the year, I'll check tomorrow.

 

 

Wait you were in contact with the guy who currently owns a copy of this CD? And noone has thought to ask him to burn an ISO? I don't know about the rest of you lot but I'd pay for him to send me a copy burnt onto a CD without a moment's hesitation. Once he's made one copy we can make as many more as we like. I know a a few coders and small time devvy types who could take a look at the code and I bet other people do too. If this hasn't already been brought up then I'd suggest it needs doing, like now :P

 

 

That's why I want a copy of the game

 

 

 

Certain files from the CD (I believe it was the compressed data for Onua's level) have already been more or less released to the public, though if any of those formats have been identified/cracked is anyone's guess...

 

onua.blk was cracked by myself some time ago, and with it any other .blk files the game may contain. It contains a bunch of old DirectX .x files and a bunch of other files, but further reversing of the files within will require a copy of the game to test with.

 

If I ever get the game I'll contact you, if you ever get the executable contact me, I can help to crack the rest of the data files if required and try to mod the game.

 

I agree that it's a little paranoid to be worrying about copyright on this game at this point, though we're not the ones to convince, it's Deep Brick/MarkofWherever if anything :P

 

Ok, let's make this clear: as far as I know is illegal to copy software with copyright without permission. But also doing this not necessarily hinders the copyright owner (in some specific cases it even helps, some people say Microsoft was the biggest software company so much time because all the piracy helped their monopoly) and it might be costly to persecute and punish this (lawyers are costly and demands aren't free in the USA as far as I know plus I'm in Mexico and that adds another layer of complexity law-wise) all this for a product that didn't, doesn't and won't generate profit. Certainly some some copyright holders are very aggressive with this issue (ie: Metallica back in 2000 fought Napster fiercely for sharing their copyrighter material, winning some hate from their fans), but LEGO has proven to be "caring and understanding" of his fans (ie: MNOG Collector's Edition kickstarter) so I think we shouldn't worry for the legal issue just now, let's cross that bridge when is necessary, not before.

 

Now I'm sick, sadly, and can't get to do more digging on the topic. Again, it'll have to wait till next weekend.

Came for the sets, stayed for the story.

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Does anyone have a link to said videos or email to DeepBrick that we can share here? It would open up the door for more people to contact him regarding the disk he owns. Perhaps make him an offer he can't refuse? :P


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yeas, really only one or two people have deep brick's email, and that is probably for the better.

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2001: 23/24 2002: 20/21 2003: 22/22 2004: 22/22 2005: 23/23
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2015: 18/18 2016: 11/17

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Now that I think about it, there's an actual word for what this game is: Vaporware.

 

Vaporware is a product announced to the public but never released to them. It is also typically never officially canceled. I'm not sure whether LoMN was officially cancelled or not though.

 

That's the exact word Greg Farshtey used to describe the game.

 

 

 

Vaporware is a product announced to the public but never released to them. It is also typically never officially canceled. I'm not sure whether LoMN was officially cancelled or not though.

 

No, not officially. But it was even advertised in one of the comics. Masks of Time were manufactured to be sold along with the game. It's not like it was a big secret.

 

But LEGO were probably too embarrassed to admit that a game for a brand new line had to be cancelled... it would lower expectations for consumers for what BIONICLE had to offer in the future and might have hurt the line. Better to stay quiet and let everyone forget about it...

 

Everyone except us, of course.

 

 

I think it was officialy cancelled, just not officially announced. They cancelled it quietly.

 

 

I agree that it's a little paranoid to be worrying about copyright on this game at this point, though we're not the ones to convince, it's Deep Brick/MarkofWherever if anything :P

 

Ok, let's make this clear: as far as I know is illegal to copy software with copyright without permission.

 

 

As far as I know, copying copyright software isn't actually illegal. Exactly how do you even define "copy"? It's up to the rights owners to enforce their copyright, and prove that criminal copyright infringement occurred. Same with fair use, unfortunately, where the only way to know for sure if something is fair use is to be sued and win.

 

 

 

 

Really, the closest thing we have for comparison is BIONICLE 2: City of Legends. It was a LEGO game that was being developed by a now-defunct company. The tech demo for it was uploaded some time ago, and nobody said anything.

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Really, the closest thing we have for comparison is BIONICLE 2: City of Legends. It was a LEGO game that was being developed by a now-defunct company. The tech demo for it was uploaded some time ago, and nobody said anything.

 

That's a good point. Funny thing is, I had never even heard of that game until last year. Was it even announced?

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As far as I know, copying copyright software isn't actually illegal. Exactly how do you even define "copy"? It's up to the rights owners to enforce their copyright, and prove that criminal copyright infringement occurred. Same with fair use, unfortunately, where the only way to know for sure if something is fair use is to be sued and win.

 

The thing about copyright, like everything else in the world, is that it's all about money... Copyrighting exists solely to protect property from being reproduced in a way that would be financially detrimental to the owner of said property. Ergo, people pirating computer games and sharing songs are in blatant breach of copyright as they are distributing for free an item that is currently for sale. This means every time someone pirates a game, said company loses out on a sale, therefore costing them money.

 

Things like Abandonware (and I guess vaporware) are still protected by their copyrights sometimes but the parent company has long since milked that particular cow dry and is no longer offering said property for sale. That means, downloading and sharing it for free will cost the company nothing and no legal action is ever likely to be raised. Even if it was raised what would the case be? If there are no damages caused then there is no way to successfully prosecute in such a case. Similarly, any such case would cost many thousands of coinage and result in a trivial payout at best, making companies even less likely to care about what people are doing with their 10+ year old licenses...

 

On another note, who exactly are RedQuark and DeepBrick? I searched for LOMN videos on youtube but best I found was some MaskofDestiny guy. Does he have any significance in all this? Also, to clarify, I was never suggesting anyone's details be made public to the whole world. Simply that we might have more luck convincing the guy to share the code if we could actually talk to him. From what I gather it seems noone here has even got that far, so why worry about contacting Lego about legalities in the first place :(


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I still have hopes that we will eventually find this game. There was a canceled 2004 game supposed to be released that year and we only found about the game, like, 9 years later.

 

Most of the CDs are probably in Denmark for obvious reasons. In the Turaga Files videos, Faber had A LOT of CDs on the boxes, so maaaybe there's a chance one copy might be there.

 

It's kinda sad thinking that someone probably has one disc, abandoned in their basement, and don't even care about it...

 

And honestly, the game don't even look that good, but simply exploring the whole Island as a Toa is a thing that can blow everyone's mind, and make this game one of the most sought Bionicle relics out there.

Edited by Zidonaro
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I suppose somebody could ask Christian Faber, but even if he has a copy, he probably wants to maintain a good relationship with LEGO.

 

However, I disagree that companies generally don't care about old software. Apparently, the biggest reason Nintendo started the Virtual Console service was to curb software piracy of their old games. Probably the same thing for the old games on PlayStation Network and Xbox Live Arcade.

 

That said, this game was never even finished, so I would guess LEGO probably doesn't care enough to go after someone with a lawsuit unless that person was actually selling the game.

My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water

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I suppose somebody could ask Christian Faber, but even if he has a copy, he probably wants to maintain a good relationship with LEGO.

 

However, I disagree that companies generally don't care about old software. Apparently, the biggest reason Nintendo started the Virtual Console service was to curb software piracy of their old games. Probably the same thing for the old games on PlayStation Network and Xbox Live Arcade.

 

That said, this game was never even finished, so I would guess LEGO probably doesn't care enough to go after someone with a lawsuit unless that person was actually selling the game.

 

Bear in mind, Nintendo are currently (and constantly) re-releasing classic titles on new platforms and more recently as mobile apps. It all comes back to whether or not the software has ceased making money for the company that owns the rights to it. Something like Final Fantasy for example will probably never stop making money so it makes sense that they protect these games. There have been a whole bunch of these released as mobile apps now (at extortionate prices) so clearly there's still money to be made there. As far as their stance on actual original versions of these games however, I don't know enough to comment. I imagine they aren't so actively protecting NES and SNES software as they are more recent titles but that's just an assumption on my part ;)


Check out my Bionicle store on Bricklink here!

> > > Bionic Bricks < < <

 

Let me know if you can help me find these last few collectibles!

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Also looking for WILD KRAATA and a VMKK Yo!!!

 

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