Mechanical Toa Evidence

[Regitnui]

Please note i do not have Kopaka and Gali yet, so those of you who do may correct me.

 

I have noticed that the Toa Okoto all have, amongst the tribal patterns, a speaker-like design on their chests. My theory is that when the Toa speak, they do so through these speakers, not through any opening in their head, hence why they wear face-covering masks without sounding muffled. The eyes pulsating indicates speech, as their are no other visible indicators.

 

Since they could be using speakers to communicate, this hints that the Toa, at least, are mechanical. Being sentient robots may also explain their surviving the Dynamic Entry (crash from space) and the way they were described as 'timeless' by the legend. Perhaps Gen2 is linked more to Hero Factory than Gen1...

[Irrie]

I dunno about the speaking part. I find it more likely that they're ventilation openings for regulating body temperature or something like that. After all, the head pieces do have clearly defined mouths on them.

[The 1st Shadow]

Kopaka has the same pattern on his thighs. What purpose would speakers serve down there?

I've theorized that this is instead some sort of material like UnderArmour or chain mail that allows their skin underneath to breath while still bearing some measure of protection.

[Regitnui]

Kopaka has the same pattern on his thighs. What purpose would speakers serve down there?

I've theorized that this is instead some sort of material like UnderArmour or chain mail that allows their skin underneath to breath while still bearing some measure of protection.

I don't have Kopaka yet, so i am open to correction. Guess this theory's busted.

[Madu Cabolo]

If they are following the central theme of Bionicle at all, which is "BIOmechanical chronicle," the Toa are not entirely robotic. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not too sure about it's validity. 

Good on you for noticing, though.

[Lyichir]

If they are following the central theme of Bionicle at all, which is "BIOmechanical chronicle," the Toa are not entirely robotic. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not too sure about it's validity. 

Good on you for noticing, though.

Technically speaking, Bionicle stood for "BioLOGICAL Chronicle," and while it wasn't clear for most of the theme's run, that referred not to the biomechanical nature of the characters but rather to the "biological analogue" of the Great Spirit Robot. Despite being a robot, it was like a living creature, with Matoran and other creatures filling the roles of cells and the "Toa canisters" being like pills delivering medicine (the Toa) to fight off an infection (Makuta).

 

Of course, the classic Toa were indeed biomechanical. But even if the new Toa are as well, there's no certainty that their "biological" components are the same as the ones from before.

 

Anyway: As others have said, I think the mesh-like patterns on some of the Toa seem more likely to be cooling vents or a lower armor layer, rather than speakers or anything like that.

[Xabla]

if they are not all robots why call it bionicle

[Chro]

if they are not all robots why call it bionicle

Does the name "Bionicle" somehow inherently imply fully mechanical characters? I'm pretty sure Lyi explained it quite adequately.

[Tuuli]

Bionicle is about robotic creatures

[The 1st Shadow]

Bionicle is about robotic creatures

Bio-mechanical, not full robots. The MU inhabitants were 85% mechanical, 15% organic. Spherus Magna inhabitants were 85% organic, and 15% mechanical.

[Regitnui]

Bionicle is about robotic creatures

But the Biological Chronicle was about the GSR and the healing process. Yeah, the main characters were (mostly) robotic, but the entire GSR was a analogy for a terminally ill man being given pills to destroy an infection.

[Lyichir]

 

Bionicle is about robotic creatures

But the Biological Chronicle was about the GSR and the healing process. Yeah, the main characters were (mostly) robotic, but the entire GSR was a analogy for a terminally ill man being given pills to destroy an infection.

 

The biological analogue of the Great Spirit Robot does not require that the characters themselves be biomechanical. In fact, sometimes I feel like it would have worked better if the characters HAD been fully robotic, since that would make the individual characters a more accurate microcosm of their robotic universe, while at the same time lessening the level of cognitive dissonance involved in assuming that the mechanical-looking Toa and Matoran sets had unseen biological components.

[Cwog]

 

 

Bionicle is about robotic creatures

But the Biological Chronicle was about the GSR and the healing process. Yeah, the main characters were (mostly) robotic, but the entire GSR was a analogy for a terminally ill man being given pills to destroy an infection.

 

The biological analogue of the Great Spirit Robot does not require that the characters themselves be biomechanical. In fact, sometimes I feel like it would have worked better if the characters HAD been fully robotic, since that would make the individual characters a more accurate microcosm of their robotic universe, while at the same time lessening the level of cognitive dissonance involved in assuming that the mechanical-looking Toa and Matoran sets had unseen biological components.

 

I can understand that. I personally liked that the Matoran Universe species weren't robots. It made it so they obviously were their own people, not just programmed. That's one of the things I didn't like about Hero Factory. In any case, though, it was a little complicated to explain to my parents or friends of someone "No, no, they're not robots. They're cyborgs. But... inside. Alive inside. Robot on the outside.... ah, **** it!"

[Aanchir]

 

 

 

Bionicle is about robotic creatures

But the Biological Chronicle was about the GSR and the healing process. Yeah, the main characters were (mostly) robotic, but the entire GSR was a analogy for a terminally ill man being given pills to destroy an infection.

 

The biological analogue of the Great Spirit Robot does not require that the characters themselves be biomechanical. In fact, sometimes I feel like it would have worked better if the characters HAD been fully robotic, since that would make the individual characters a more accurate microcosm of their robotic universe, while at the same time lessening the level of cognitive dissonance involved in assuming that the mechanical-looking Toa and Matoran sets had unseen biological components.

 

I can understand that. I personally liked that the Matoran Universe species weren't robots. It made it so they obviously were their own people, not just programmed. That's one of the things I didn't like about Hero Factory. In any case, though, it was a little complicated to explain to my parents or friends of someone "No, no, they're not robots. They're cyborgs. But... inside. Alive inside. Robot on the outside.... ah, **** it!"

 

That criticism of Hero Factory never really made a whole lot of sense to me. Not only are thinking, feeling robots far from a new concept in science fiction, but living creatures are also "programmed" in a sense — except the "code" they are programmed with is genetic/chemical rather than electronic/digital. It's true, a living person's identity is not strictly defined by their coding (I should know as well as anybody, being an identical twin). But why, in a sci-fi or fantasy universe, should that be any less true for robots?

 

Even in the official BIONICLE storyline, the personalities and culture of the Matoran were not a deliberate part of their design. They were emergent traits, side effects of their artificial intelligence. And there's no reason these kinds of emergent traits could not exist in robots. The fleshy, organic material we're made of isn't what gives us our personalities. Personality is more abstract than that. It comes from our experiences, and how we respond to those experiences. And even as living creatures, the neural signals and stimuli that allow us to process and learn from those experiences are, in fact, electrical in nature!

[Cwog]

 

 

 

 

Bionicle is about robotic creatures

But the Biological Chronicle was about the GSR and the healing process. Yeah, the main characters were (mostly) robotic, but the entire GSR was a analogy for a terminally ill man being given pills to destroy an infection.

 

The biological analogue of the Great Spirit Robot does not require that the characters themselves be biomechanical. In fact, sometimes I feel like it would have worked better if the characters HAD been fully robotic, since that would make the individual characters a more accurate microcosm of their robotic universe, while at the same time lessening the level of cognitive dissonance involved in assuming that the mechanical-looking Toa and Matoran sets had unseen biological components.

 

I can understand that. I personally liked that the Matoran Universe species weren't robots. It made it so they obviously were their own people, not just programmed. That's one of the things I didn't like about Hero Factory. In any case, though, it was a little complicated to explain to my parents or friends of someone "No, no, they're not robots. They're cyborgs. But... inside. Alive inside. Robot on the outside.... ah, **** it!"

 

That criticism of Hero Factory never really made a whole lot of sense to me. Not only are thinking, feeling robots far from a new concept in science fiction, but living creatures are also "programmed" in a sense — except the "code" they are programmed with is genetic/chemical rather than electronic/digital. It's true, a living person's identity is not strictly defined by their coding (I should know as well as anybody, being an identical twin). But why, in a sci-fi or fantasy universe, should that be any less true for robots?

 

Even in the official BIONICLE storyline, the personalities and culture of the Matoran were not a deliberate part of their design. They were emergent traits, side effects of their artificial intelligence. And there's no reason these kinds of emergent traits could not exist in robots. The fleshy, organic material we're made of isn't what gives us our personalities. Personality is more abstract than that. It comes from our experiences, and how we respond to those experiences. And even as living creatures, the neural signals and stimuli that allow us to process and learn from those experiences are, in fact, electrical in nature!

 

While I agree with pretty much everything you said, there's the bit that the Hero Factory heroes were made to be heroes. Wait. So were the Toa. Alright, you win this round, Aanchir. I stand corrected.

[fishers64]

We had a lot of rogue HF heroes and rogue Toa, so "being made to be a hero" doesn't always work.

 

I'd call it a theme of both of those stories.

[Cwog]

We had a lot of rogue HF heroes and rogue Toa, so "being made to be a hero" doesn't always work.

 

I'd call it a theme of both of those stories.

Never really thought about it that way, but there ya go. Wait, was Mata Nui an AI?

[fishers64]

Yes, he was, though he didn't go bad, just lazy.

[Cwog]

Yes, he was, though he didn't go bad, just lazy.

Huh. Alright then. Thanks for answering.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

tbh, i always just call the toa robots, it's easier to say than "biomechanical being" most of the time. :0

[Cwog]

tbh, i always just call the toa robots, it's easier to say than "biomechanical being" most of the time. :0

Well... cyborg works. So does "Bionicle".

[Regitnui]

 

 

tbh, i always just call the toa robots, it's easier to say than "biomechanical being" most of the time. :0

Well... cyborg works. So does "Bionicle".

Bionicle doesn't work, with the aforementioned Biological Chronicle meaning. However, biomech is a perfectly adequate term for a biologically-augmented robot, which is what the MU inhabitants are. Cyborg is a better description for the SM inhabitants, with their biology being augmented by technology, but it'll suffice for the others too. Honestly, everything in the plot can be described as various flavours of biological<->mechanical.

[Cwog]

 

 

tbh, i always just call the toa robots, it's easier to say than "biomechanical being" most of the time. :0

Well... cyborg works. So does "Bionicle".

Bionicle doesn't work, with the aforementioned Biological Chronicle meaning. However, biomech is a perfectly adequate term for a biologically-augmented robot, which is what the MU inhabitants are. Cyborg is a better description for the SM inhabitants, with their biology being augmented by technology, but it'll suffice for the others too. Honestly, everything in the plot can be described as various flavours of biological<->mechanical.

 

So I guess the question is this: Are the Gen2 characters Biomechs, or cyborgs, or... what?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

this is probably the best topic and time to mention this, honestly:

 

In one of the bohrok comics (which was linked to in a different topic, cannot recall where or why) the bohrok are referred to as "Not alive, they're biomechanical!" which refers to how, while made of organic material, they are machines at (lack of) heart.

 

what confuesed me there was that, as people here have stated, the Toa are Biomechanical beings, while... still being alive?

 

no wonder this topic was made, the levels of "robot-ness" in bionicle are confusing. :0

[Aanchir]

One really strange thing about BIONICLE is the way its relationship with the term "biomechanical" changed over time. One of the first instances of the word appeared in Comic 6 from May 2002. But there, it described not the Toa or Matoran, but the Bohrok. According to Onua, "The Matoran have discovered that the Bohrok do not truly live. They are artificial life... biomechanical creations." Even at that point, the Toa recognized the Bohrok as less "alive" than themselves, in that they were unthinking drones controlled by the Krana. But the distinction between "mechanical" and "biomechanical" was not so clear-cut at that time. I think the BIONICLE movies played a role in clarifying the distinction between organic and mechanical, since they were the first time the organic and mechanical portions of the Toa and Matoran themselves had to be set apart from one another visually.

The BIONICLE reboot, so far, has not shown any concerted effort to make such a clear distinction. In fact, most descriptions and press releases avoid making any statement one way or the other about the physical makeup of the characters. Instead of describing them like alien races, most sources have described the characters in such a way that if you were not familiar with the appearance of the characters or the franchise's heritage, you would have no idea that the characters being described were mechanical at all! They are people first, mechanical or biomechanical fantasy races second.

Of course, on a visual level, there's little doubt that the Toa and Protectors would be considered mechanical or biomechanical from the perspective of an outside observer — at least, assuming that things like the gears on their backs, metal vents, pistons on their heads and armor, and the Protector of Earth's integrated chest cannon are more than just "clothing" or "accessories" that they can remove at will. They lack any obviously organic-looking traits, and I think for the time being the creators will try to keep the presence or lack of organic parts ambiguous, just like they did in the early years of BIONICLE.

[The 1st Shadow]

Of course, on a visual level, there's little doubt that the Toa and Protectors would be considered mechanical or biomechanical from the perspective of an outside observer — at least, assuming that things like the gears on their backs, metal vents, pistons on their heads and armor, and the Protector of Earth's integrated chest cannon are more than just "clothing" or "accessories" that they can remove at will. They lack any obviously organic-looking traits, and I think for the time being the creators will try to keep the presence or lack of organic parts ambiguous, just like they did in the early years of BIONICLE.

For this view, I always like to point out the Glatorian. Those heads (or bodies, really) didn't look very organic at all, and yet they were described as organic beings with a few mechanical implants. As I pointed out in another topic, the pistons in the armor could easily be part of some mechanism to help make the armor more easy to bear for the characters, in the same way we have those "exo-suit" walkers used by the military and firemen to help carry heavy equipment with ease. 

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

Of course, on a visual level, there's little doubt that the Toa and Protectors would be considered mechanical or biomechanical from the perspective of an outside observer — at least, assuming that things like the gears on their backs, metal vents, pistons on their heads and armor, and the Protector of Earth's integrated chest cannon are more than just "clothing" or "accessories" that they can remove at will. They lack any obviously organic-looking traits, and I think for the time being the creators will try to keep the presence or lack of organic parts ambiguous, just like they did in the early years of BIONICLE.

For this view, I always like to point out the Glatorian. Those heads (or bodies, really) didn't look very organic at all, and yet they were described as organic beings with a few mechanical implants. As I pointed out in another topic, the pistons in the armor could easily be part of some mechanism to help make the armor more easy to bear for the characters, in the same way we have those "exo-suit" walkers used by the military and firemen to help carry heavy equipment with ease. 

 

 

and... the glowing visible brainstalk? :0

[Lyichir]

 

Of course, on a visual level, there's little doubt that the Toa and Protectors would be considered mechanical or biomechanical from the perspective of an outside observer — at least, assuming that things like the gears on their backs, metal vents, pistons on their heads and armor, and the Protector of Earth's integrated chest cannon are more than just "clothing" or "accessories" that they can remove at will. They lack any obviously organic-looking traits, and I think for the time being the creators will try to keep the presence or lack of organic parts ambiguous, just like they did in the early years of BIONICLE.

For this view, I always like to point out the Glatorian. Those heads (or bodies, really) didn't look very organic at all, and yet they were described as organic beings with a few mechanical implants. As I pointed out in another topic, the pistons in the armor could easily be part of some mechanism to help make the armor more easy to bear for the characters, in the same way we have those "exo-suit" walkers used by the military and firemen to help carry heavy equipment with ease. 

 

 

That's why I would consider Greg's decision that the Glatorian were somehow more organic than the Matoran or Toa one of his dumber story choices. The story was always based on the sets, and the sets almost always featured more mechanical detailing than organic detailing (with rare exceptions like the Barraki). This was no different for the Glatorian, who reused a large number of parts from previous years, so I don't see why Greg felt it necessary to insist they were more organic (apart from a simple and, in my opinion, unnecessary desire to set them apart more from the "artificial" species in the Matoran universe).

Edited April 16, 2015 by Lyichir

[Cwog]

 

 

Of course, on a visual level, there's little doubt that the Toa and Protectors would be considered mechanical or biomechanical from the perspective of an outside observer — at least, assuming that things like the gears on their backs, metal vents, pistons on their heads and armor, and the Protector of Earth's integrated chest cannon are more than just "clothing" or "accessories" that they can remove at will. They lack any obviously organic-looking traits, and I think for the time being the creators will try to keep the presence or lack of organic parts ambiguous, just like they did in the early years of BIONICLE.

For this view, I always like to point out the Glatorian. Those heads (or bodies, really) didn't look very organic at all, and yet they were described as organic beings with a few mechanical implants. As I pointed out in another topic, the pistons in the armor could easily be part of some mechanism to help make the armor more easy to bear for the characters, in the same way we have those "exo-suit" walkers used by the military and firemen to help carry heavy equipment with ease. 

 

 

That's why I would consider Greg's decision that the Glatorian were somehow more organic than the Matoran or Toa one of his dumber story choices. The story was always based on the sets, and the sets almost always featured more mechanical detailing than organic detailing (with rare exceptions like the Barraki). This was no different for the Glatorian, who reused a large number of parts from previous years, so I don't see why Greg felt it necessary to insist they were more organic (apart from a simple and, in my opinion, unnecessary desire to set them apart more from the "artificial" species in the Matoran universe).

 

See, if they used CCBS back then, it would be easier for them to say that the Glatorian and Agori were different. Y'know, because the armor plates are much easier to reapply to newer sets.

[The 1st Shadow]

and... the glowing visible brainstalk? :0

 

Assuming you're talking about the 2015 sets, there's a couple ways to address this. First off, the eyestalks may not actually be present in-story, and are merely there in set to provide a distinction between the color of the head and the color of the eyes. Second, they're possibly part of the visible skin underneath. See my theory here for more details on that.

 

That's why I would consider Greg's decision that the Glatorian were somehow more organic than the Matoran or Toa one of his dumber story choices. The story was always based on the sets, and the sets almost always featured more mechanical detailing than organic detailing (with rare exceptions like the Barraki). This was no different for the Glatorian, who reused a large number of parts from previous years, so I don't see why Greg felt it necessary to insist they were more organic (apart from a simple and, in my opinion, unnecessary desire to set them apart more from the "artificial" species in the Matoran universe).

 

Bear in mind that Greg was not the only person on the Story Team. That would have been a group decision, so it wasn't just one of Greg's wacky ideas.  

Edited April 16, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[fishers64]

I thought that them being more organic makes more sense, if only because of the audience. In real life, highly mechanical things are artificial - they have an organic source behind them. The setting of 2009 was a "natural" planet as opposed an "artificial" robot, which follows that the characters are "natural" - i.e. organic. The characters fit the setting. 

[Cwog]

I thought that them being more organic makes more sense, if only because of the audience. In real life, highly mechanical things are artificial - they have an organic source behind them. The setting of 2009 was a "natural" planet as opposed an "artificial" robot, which follows that the characters are "natural" - i.e. organic. The characters fit the setting. 

Yeah, I agree with you there.

[Lyichir]

 

and... the glowing visible brainstalk? :0

Assuming you're talking about the 2015 sets, there's a couple ways to address this. First off, the eyestalks may not actually be present in-story, and are merely there in set to provide a distinction between the color of the head and the color of the eyes. Second, they're possibly part of the visible skin underneath. See my theory here for more details on that.

 

That's why I would consider Greg's decision that the Glatorian were somehow more organic than the Matoran or Toa one of his dumber story choices. The story was always based on the sets, and the sets almost always featured more mechanical detailing than organic detailing (with rare exceptions like the Barraki). This was no different for the Glatorian, who reused a large number of parts from previous years, so I don't see why Greg felt it necessary to insist they were more organic (apart from a simple and, in my opinion, unnecessary desire to set them apart more from the "artificial" species in the Matoran universe).

Bear in mind that Greg was not the only person on the Story Team. That would have been a group decision, so it wasn't just one of Greg's wacky ideas.  

 

Greg was not the only person on the story team, but he was the one who was most responsible for minutiae like that. The rest of the story team was more responsible for things like the overall story direction, major mysteries, and character attributes like personality and powers (the kinds of things that would impact aspects from marketing to promotion to adaptations like movies and games). But Greg's role writing the actual books and answering questions for fans meant that he was responsible for the nitty-gritty aspects of the story, including things like the biology of characters and the extent and limitations of powers. It's possible that the specific ratio of organic and mechanical makeup of the Glatorian versus that of the Toa was a group decision, but I seriously doubt it, because it was a trivia note at best—not a factor that would ever have any measurable impact on the overall story direction.

[TinkerTech]

But Greg's role writing the actual books and answering questions for fans meant that he was responsible for the nitty-gritty aspects of the story, including things like the biology of characters and the extent and limitations of powers. It's possible that the specific ratio of organic and mechanical makeup of the Glatorian versus that of the Toa was a group decision, but I seriously doubt it, because it was a trivia note at best—not a factor that would ever have any measurable impact on the overall story direction.

 

 

except for, y'know the nitty-gritty fans who like to nit-pick everything.   

 

On the original topic of the speaker-like decals; while it's a good theory, I think it's more likely they're designed as part of the armor in some other facet. But it's an interesting concept, like the heart-lights that we saw in the Mask of Light movie. (I don't recall if they were referenced before then.)

[Regitnui]

 

On the original topic of the speaker-like decals; while it's a good theory, I think it's more likely they're designed as part of the armor in some other facet. But it's an interesting concept, like the heart-lights that we saw in the Mask of Light movie. (I don't recall if they were referenced before then.)

 

Thank you!

 

Revising the original theory, perhaps the mesh itself is 'under-armour'. But if all we see is the mesh cover, there could be a speaker on the chest and a pair of heating vents on Kopaka's knees, given his need to keep his armour warmer than the others.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Regitnui

[Tarvaxx]

Considering that the title of protector is handed down from "father to son" that means they can reproduce, which pretty much means they're bio-mechanical(or possibly just biological, perhaps everything mechanical is just an exoskeleton) AND that they age (as we can see by the small little bitty villager).

[Mjolnitor]

Considering that the title of protector is handed down from "father to son" that means they can reproduce, which pretty much means they're bio-mechanical(or possibly just biological, perhaps everything mechanical is just an exoskeleton) AND that they age (as we can see by the small little bitty villager).

...or they're still mechanical, but able to reproduce.

[Regitnui]

 

 

Considering that the title of protector is handed down from "father to son" that means they can reproduce, which pretty much means they're bio-mechanical(or possibly just biological, perhaps everything mechanical is just an exoskeleton) AND that they age (as we can see by the small little bitty villager).

...or they're still mechanical, but able to reproduce.

Von Neumann machines are a common sci-fi device and potential galaxy exploration method. They're machines that land on a rock and build copies of themselves with local resources. The copies then take off to other places and repeat the cycle. Essentially reproducing robots, though reproducing with a very different method to organics.

[Mjolnitor]

 

Von Neumann machines are a common sci-fi device and potential galaxy exploration method. They're machines that land on a rock and build copies of themselves with local resources. The copies then take off to other places and repeat the cycle. Essentially reproducing robots, though reproducing with a very different method to organics.

 

Did I say anything about von Neumann's?..

No need for overcomplication with more and more terms.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Mjolnitor

[Aanchir]

 

 

Von Neumann machines are a common sci-fi device and potential galaxy exploration method. They're machines that land on a rock and build copies of themselves with local resources. The copies then take off to other places and repeat the cycle. Essentially reproducing robots, though reproducing with a very different method to organics.

 

Did I say anything about von Neumann's?..

No need for overcomplication with more and more terms.

 

True, but it is a good point that the existence of "parents" and "children" doesn't necessarily mean biological reproduction or even a facsimile thereof. I'm reminded a bit of the animated movie "Robots", in which robots who want to have children order them as kits, and then order them upgrades as they "grow up". In that movie, it was largely played for humor, of course. But for all we know, new baby villagers are delivered by the Lord of Skull Storks.

 

I doubt we'll ever see the particulars of how new villagers are "born". This is a kids' series, after all, and the story so far has treated them as people rather than as an exotic species. You wouldn't expect a series with human characters to go into detail about where new humans come from unless it were essential to the storyline. Even in G1, which was at many points a lot more explicit about the characters being alien species (by our reckoning), we usually didn't get a whole lot of detail about Matoran life processes outside of Greg answers.