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Poll: Size the Mata Nui robot

How big do you like dem giant robotz?  

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I selected:

"I prefer the giant robot to be 40 million feet tall (the official canon size)."

 

The G.S.Robot and the Matoran Universe is still about the height of Earth. I recognize that Spherus Magna (and in-turn the Great Spirit Robot) is pretty dang big, but i like it to shorten down for my head-canon and in-turn my project A Rude Awakening. In A Rude Awakening, I have it shortened down to the size of Neptune just for simplicities sake: I want to keep the GSR's size intact and keep Spherus Magna's greatness but make it easier to capture in a game that was originally meant to take place on Earth.


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I honestly like the canon size. It gives a sense of epicness even though it is a ridiculous height that we don't usually experience, but it's a fantasy world and that's okay to have something that huge be a setting. It also helps Spherus Magna be large as well, and I like that as it allows for more room and content.


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Oh, dear fisher.... Another topic discussing this? :P Let's not beat the dead horse too much, eh?

 

Anyway, I went with the canon height of 40 million feet. Sure, it's big, but I like the feel it gives. After all, other sci-fi works have done starships easily the size of a moon *cough*DeathStar*cough* so why not a robot? No one questioned it in Star Wars, and there's no reason to question it here. :) That's how I see it.

 

 

(NOTE: If the GSR curled up, it would be less Earth-sized and more moon-sized, hence my comparison)

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All dead horses must be smashed into oblivion. :P

 

I'm still waiting for the vocal complainers to show up lol. It appears that those who prefer "reasonable" robot sizes also prefer "reasonable" posting hours.

 

That's why I keep doing these polls - to insure myself against the thought that the complainers/discussing people are the majority. Also funzies. But mostly that. 

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I said I'd prefer a reasonable size. 40 000 000ft just sounds like a 'this must be really big' number more than a thought-out estimate. If it's decided that 40m feet is reasonable, then I have no problem with it.

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I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Anyway, I went with the canon height of 40 million feet. Sure, it's big, but I like the feel it gives. After all, other sci-fi works have done starships easily the size of a moon *cough*DeathStar*cough* so why not a robot? No one questioned it in Star Wars, and there's no reason to question it here. :) That's how I see it.

 

 

(NOTE: If the GSR curled up, it would be less Earth-sized and more moon-sized, hence my comparison)

As cool as it is to make a comparison like that, the first thing to have popped in my head was "nerd alert!". :lol: Nothing wrong with that though, haha!

 

 

 

Oh, dear fisher.... Another topic discussing this? :P Let's not beat the dead horse too much, eh?

 

All dead horses must be smashed into oblivion. :P

 

I think the following summarizes the aforementioned:

 

dedhrse.gif  Beating

:smash:  Smashing.

 

 

Got it!  thumbsup.gif

 

 

 

 

I'm still waiting for the vocal complainers to show up lol. It appears that those who prefer "reasonable" robot sizes also prefer "reasonable" posting hours.

 

That's why I keep doing these polls - to insure myself against the thought that the complainers/discussing people are the majority. Also funzies. But mostly that.

 

It's alright in my eyes, keep it up! :lol:

  • Upvote 1

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*facepalm* Accidentally nulled... I was going to vote for forty million feet, though. It seems to me that if we're going to have a massive robot, it might as well be that tall as any shorter or taller - either way it's still mind-numbingly large and will require some appeal to Bionicle physics to be possible.


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I said I'd prefer a more reasonable size; obviously, making the robot as tall as Earth is wide backfired when they realized it still needed to be able to stand on planets, so it ended up setting off a chain reaction to the size of the planets, and eventually the size of their universe in general, which really made the enormous size of the robot lose all meaning when now EVERYTHING is big in this universe.

 

In the end, they always had to choose between feasibility as a robot that lands on planets and feasibility as a robot with a bunch of islands inside it. I just personally think they went too far in the choice they made.

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It seems that when greg pulled that absurd huge number from has absurd human hat, he was merely thinking of HIM BIG and not, you know, the actual story implications of what 40,000,000 would actually mean.

 

so, "the him" being less "the big" would be nice, i think. :t

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I said I'd prefer a more reasonable size; obviously, making the robot as tall as Earth is wide backfired when they realized it still needed to be able to stand on planets, so it ended up setting off a chain reaction to the size of the planets, and eventually the size of their universe in general, which really made the enormous size of the robot lose all meaning when now EVERYTHING is big in this universe.

 

In the end, they always had to choose between feasibility as a robot that lands on planets and feasibility as a robot with a bunch of islands inside it. I just personally think they went too far in the choice they made.

Not to mention being big enough for a moon to hit its face. 


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Looking at the animation from Faber and Ghost, it looks like an island to cover his face would be roughly the size of Great Britain, and that seems juuust a bit big for Mata Nui (island), soo the canon stickler in me says the Robot should be a bit smaller... but the fan in me says "whatevs i don't care all too much"


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I said I'd prefer a more reasonable size; obviously, making the robot as tall as Earth is wide backfired when they realized it still needed to be able to stand on planets, so it ended up setting off a chain reaction to the size of the planets, and eventually the size of their universe in general, which really made the enormous size of the robot lose all meaning when now EVERYTHING is big in this universe.

 

In the end, they always had to choose between feasibility as a robot that lands on planets and feasibility as a robot with a bunch of islands inside it. I just personally think they went too far in the choice they made.

Not to mention being big enough for a moon to hit its face. 

 

 

Considering if a moon hit him in the face, it was going to be the moon he crashed on, there was always going to be an issue there; you can't be both large enough for that moon to only hit your head and small enough to be entirely submerged on that moon. I can understand the eventual Word of God that it was actually just a chunk of Aqua Magna.

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1000 years isn't very long in the Bionicle Universe despite it being so in ours, so why should planets have to be the same size as those in our universe? A robot the size of the Earth is epic and makes sense considering all the locations within it.

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1000 years isn't very long in the Bionicle Universe despite it being so in ours, so why should planets have to be the same size as those in our universe? A robot the size of the Earth is epic and makes sense considering all the locations within it.

 

Because when everything's BIG eventually nothing is.

 

A robot the size of Earth loses all impact when it's on a moon the size of a gas giant, orbiting an impossibly bigger planet. All sense of scale is lost because everything is trying to be spectacularly sized, to the point it's no longer comprehensible.

 

The same actually also applies to the time span of Bionicle; many of the Glatorian being hundreds of thousands of years old feels incongrous with their overall ignorance of their planet's past.

Edited by Dina Saruyama
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My vote went to the MU Robot being 40 million feet tall. I understand why some people would want it to be smaller, but I personally like it being that tall. I just think that its really cool. :P

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SailorQuaoar said it best:

 

...

 

Of course not every number in Bionicle works out. And it is fantasy so a few things can slide by.

 

But the smaller scale version of the GSR solves so many problems with scale in Bionicle.

- the low population density of Matoran

- the fact that two giant robots were able to battle on the surface of a planet without completely destroying it

- the size of Mata Nui the island (it's roughly the size of Demark. Since the island is bigger than Mata Nui's head, in Gregscale it would have to be about the size of Australia. And at that point it's not an island, it's a continent)

 

Now you might be asking how the Southern Continent fits into all this. The Southern Continent to us is really more like a very large island. But the Matoran consider it a continent because most other islands in their world were very small.

 

Considering what we know about the population of the Matoran Universe, everything can fit comfortably in the smaller robot. If Matoran are the most populous race and there's only a few thousand of them, there's probably even less of the other species.

The other species can fit in the leg islands if need be. it was really odd that they were never explored in canon...you'd think someone would get the idea during 100,000 years.

Not to mention that the MU is a constructed world. Building a world way larger than your inhabitants need is inefficient building.

 

The two major arguments that I see supporting 40 million feet are "the MU has continents" and "Greg said it and he knows best". The size of the continents are relative as I mentioned before.

 

Now as for Greg's word on canon, we have established before that he is not a mathematician, designer, or architect. He thinks in words, not pictures. Greg is also human like us, and humans can make mistakes.

 

Think of it like this. You're in college and you need help on your Biology research project. You want to go to one of your friends for advice. Would you ask the science major or the English major? Obviously the science major since it's their area of expertise.

 

Asking Greg questions about scale and numbers is like asking a car mechanic questions about makeup and fashion. He has no experience with it so you're not gonna get an answer that makes much sense.

 

But Faber is an artist and a designer. He thinks visually. It's his job to turn concepts into reality. And while the Mata Nui robot was never going to become reality, Faber's art and video show that a lot of thought went into making the size and scale of the Mata Nui robot seem believable, especially with using real-world locations for reference.

 

Greg's measurements came from a number that he thought would sound big and impressive. Faber's measurements had a lot more thought and effort put into them, and both the Mata Nui Rising video and the Journey's End comic support this scale.

 

Faber's measurements have a lot more evidence backing them up than Greg's and that's why I strongly believe they should be the "canon" ones.

 

(Emphasis mine.)

  • Upvote 12

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."
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:headbonk:

 

Come on, guys, there's already one ridiculously out-of-hand topic for this discussion.

 

One last thing before I go, though...

(NOTE: If the GSR curled up, it would be less Earth-sized and more moon-sized, hence my comparison)

That's no moon.


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I voted for the official canon size, since all the physical/scale problems about it can be objectively resolved with explanations or therories.

Imagine any sorts of theories which would make quite more harmonious the whole thing is a better way of doing than to contradict canon facts for reasons of preferences or "realism", IMO ^^
Edited by Du7734

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So many members have made so many great observations already I'm not sure I have anything to add other than my own personal thoughts on the matter based on above observations! (EDIT : I managed to put together a pretty coherent paragraph below, read at your leisure :D)

 

I went with slightly smaller for a whole bunch of reasons but each and every one of them can be argued both ways forever with ease.

 

My main objection is that a robot the size of earth is ridiculous, plain and simple. Counter-argument is that it's just a fictional story made for a toyline but that doesn't stop it being ridiculous...

 

The GSR being so huge makes everything else impossibly big too as already mentioned. Aqua Magna was big enough for a 40million foot robot to lie completely submerged and entirely flat (there is no sign of curvature when we see the GSR standing at full height on Aqua Magna or it would be visible in the clouds. This same image also shows that he seems to be within the planets atmosphere for the most part although perspective makes this an unreliable argument. The official trailer for the Legend Reborn however is a better indicator of the GSR's height compared to the size of Aqua Magna as the former shows the planet at sunset while TLR is shot at midday with no sign of darkness/space and more importantly cloud coverage up to his waist at the very least. That would mean cloud coverage of anywhere up to 20 million feet. Clouds on earth exist at just 20,000 feet, arguably making Aqua Magna 1,000 times larger than earth! Let's also consider that Aqua Magna is only a small portion of Spherus Magna, roughly 1/8 of it's total diameter judging from official artwork (though this may vary considerably between sources)

 

With that in mind it is safe to assume that SM=(1000E)8 where 1000E represents a possible diameter for Aqua Magna based on that of Earth. Inserting data reveals the following numerical formula then; SM=(1000x40000000)8 to give us a possible diameter of, are you ready for this? 320,000,000,000 feet... Yup, 320 BILLION feet! That's roughly 100 million kilometers, half the distance between the orbits of Earth and Mars!

 

In this supersized universe, earth would equate to less than a meteor (being less than 0.01% the size of SM) and would most likely simply burn up in Spherus Magna's probable 60 thousand mile thick atmosphere... 

 

Getting away from numbers and back to words, that makes for an absurd universe where it would be literally impossible to travel from one side of the planet to the other in a single lifetime (a 315 million kilometer journey taking more than 7 million earth years on foot!) Although in retrospect, no wonder they built a 40 million foot robot, even with 20 million foot long legs it would take 2 years to circumnavigate the planet! 

 

Onto other less lengthy concerns, there's the matter of how (and why) anyone could (and would) build such a monstrous robot. The population on Spherus Magna seems to be incredibly low so where did the workforce come from? No doubt they would need to build a succession of incrementally larger robots to enable the construction of a 40 million foot GSR. Matoran would be utterly useless and we never see ANY sort of industry on Spherus Magna in known canon to my knowledge. Also as another poster mentioned, why build something so much bigger than it needs to be when a smaller robot could easily do the same job better? There were mere thousands of Matoran in the GSR so why do they need 40million feet of robot to live in? Not to mention the fact that as size increases so does complexity and therefore upkeep. In the same way that larger rockets require more fuel to take off, a larger GSR would need more workers to maintain it, so where are they? A few thousand matoran could never be expected to maintain such a huge robot. Let's not forget it's called a 'universe'. So either we have millions of additional matoran that we simply never saw or the GSR itself is significantly smaller than advertised! 

 

Another issue is travel time within the GSR itself. Over the course of the original Bionicle storyline there were many times during which the Toa travelled between various parts of the robot. Given that the canon robot must have a head that's roughly 5 million feet long, can you imagine how long it would take to travel from an island ON TOP of the outside of that head to an island continent on a gigantic sea waaaaaay below said island? And then to do that same journey multiple times with Matoran Spheres for example? The Toa Phantoka/Mistika did an awful lot of travelling inside the GSR and I believe most of it was done in the traditional (non-teleporty) sense. It's at least 10-15 million feet to reach Karda Nui and the like. Not to mention the Mahri travelling from INSIDE the robot up to Voya Nui on the planet's surface (and the Toa Nuva come to think of it) All of these journeys cover ridiculous distances yet they happened all the time as if they were over in seconds. Without constant teleportation that just isn't possible and while I'm aware that teleportation was a frequent occurrence it certainly doesn't cover all of these epic journeys.

 

All in all, a 40 million foot robot is ridiculous for a whole ton of reasons and as has already been mentioned it was just a number Greg plucked out of thin air. He probably didn't even check to see what that distance would equate to in real terms before deciding to go with it. There's certainly not a single piece of artwork that suggests the robot was anywhere near this big so I would be strongly in favour of revising this figure to something more believable. Undecided? Read the above numbers again, they're pretty amazing :D

 

TL:DR - Read it or don't, can't be bothered then fine, I don't need to know.

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Basic reason most arguments against it don't work -- it's supposed to be "mind-bogglingly huge." So being "ridiculous" is generally a good thing in this case. :)

 

Alvis, Sailor's post has already been answered in the other topic. Can we not contribute to false rumors by spreading around bad logic that's already been debunked, yeah?

 

Munty, point by point:

 

-Size of the planets was never established. You're probably relying on artistic portrayals, but artists are not storyline or size experts. Some of them also put both moons as lumpy potatos (and one the entire SM as that), so that's a pretty clear indicator they weren't checking these things first.

You mentioned it's fiction, but you seem to have forgotten that there -- you're not getting a camera view into the world as it's intended canonically or "as it would be" -- you're looking at people's portrayals of it.

-Not sure why you're talking about cloud coverage. If you're again trying to match art with that, what does that matter? So the clouds are lower down, so what?

-A better argument is how much space he takes up laying down on an Earth-sized planet, but Greg has confirmed SM was larger (and AM was uninhabited and all ocean so doesn't matter) -- just not a "megaplanet" as I call the artistic version.

-BTW, the megaplanet version works just fine if you don't assume real-world physics is completely the same here (and given precedent, no reason it had to be, but Greg did turn it down and I'm all for leaving the poor dead horse alone... see recent topics that have already gone over that :P).

-I've seen other math besides yours -- all of it is just assumption until we get an official size for the planet.

-Lifespan arguments fall flat since they lived to 100,000 years or more. :) (And yes, that's biologically possible for aliens with a different design; "in before." :P)

-You actually raise a good point about building. I have a method in my retelling that would be easy, but admittedly it's based on the megaplanet interpretation. Still, protodermis can enable powers that materialize matter from energy (and the natural type was highly energetic), so it's still not a problem. :)

-I agree they probably made robots for aiding in the construction, regardless of the size of the planet. Not a problem, esp. since the mass of those robots could then be recycled (if they used proto) inside the giant. Or they might have used tools with large-scale antigravity and telekinetic fields to move the pieces into place and used small robots or other beings.

-It's another good question why we don't see industry on SM, since we do see vehicles they use. Answer is probably found in Metus' statement to Mata Nui that the desert is filled with ruins (buried ruins) from their life prior to the Shattering. They seem to have moved closer to each other, shortening distances needed to travel (again regardless of size of planet) after resources became scarce to stay near the pieces of the fallen-apart prototype giant, which could serve as an emergency shelter against things like sandstorms. So, they left their industrial structures behind.

Or, they might have used means other than our own to build stuff. Doubt it in this case though.

-The large robot actually was needed to have "continents" inside him.

-Like Sailor, you show that your whole reasoning is apparently based on a false premise that the giant was made for the Matoran, not the other way around (they were primarily maintenance workers for automated buildings that kept the robot functioning). Many fictional spaceships and suchnot have only one operator (Thor, Stargate, for example). The size is irrelevant to that. But a smaller population surely makes sense with keeping them in the dark about the nature of their universe!

-Off the top of my head I don't recall the size of the giant's head but I calced it in that image on my brickshelf I've linked before. Short on time to grab. Without seeing your math, I question it. :P Did you factor the smaller head to body ratio?

-But it's a good question how long a walking journey would take. However, this still doesn't work, because the canon size of the camo island, if used to size the robot down, only halves it, so still a long journey, and even the original concept art size still makes a long walking journey. The only problem here would be a timeline accuracy one since so many events were said to be within one year. But if that doesn't work, just say it took longer. No real problem there far as I know. :P

-The Matoran spheres were carried through the sun-hole by airships, so the walking journey issue doesn't apply to them.

-Another good point about the (I think you meant) Reign travel times, but we don't know that was all by foot either. There were underwater chutes they might have used, and they did have powers of various types. I presume most didn't get to keep their Kakama, but that would work for Pohatu, and anybody near him. Tahu and Takanuva are the issue, though, so that's a fair point. But considering there's also walking journey times on Bara Magna to consider (and most of that distance is by boat in the MU anyways, so not literally walking), they probably balance out, even if Greg's timeline doesn't quite work (not the first time it's been questioned :P).

-The Mahri's only journey from inside the giant to Voya Nui that I recall (or the Toa Nuva) was with the canisters. If you mean the walking from one end of the stone cord to another, that would be a much shorter distance.


Anywho, to the poll -- I voted how it is, because the other option isn't specific enough to vote for reasonably. I don't mind shrinking it down to about half (though preferably less), but an open-ended question could be taken to support "ridiculous" ( :P) -ly small sizes. How about we all recognize that "mind-boggling huge universe inside a giant" is SUPPOSED to be difficult to grasp and even supposed to raise issues (that we can then apply our brains and imagination and yes fun to analyze and look for solutions :))?

Edited by bonesiii
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Why do so many people keep claiming Greg made the "40 Million" number out of nowhere? It's an approximation of the Earth's diameter. I don't see how it could be seen as unintentional.

 

Also, keep in mind that while Mata Nui has about the same height of Earth, it does not mean he has the same size or mass. Planets are big spheres and Mata Nui has a  humanoid shape. Not to mention that the GSR was also hallow in order to host the MU.

 

The MU would also have a much smaller surface area than the Earth. To my knowledge, with the exception of Karda Nui, most of the MU lies flat within the great spirit robot. The surface of a planet, however, is curved and wraps around the entirety of it. (Correct me if I'm wrong here. I always assumed this.) I bet if you were to take the MU and turn it into a crust, it would actually be much smaller than the Earth, probably even smaller than the moon's.

 

Granted, it would still mean that Spherus Magna and its fragments are ridiculously huge. In order to rebuild the prototype robot, the agori would have to be moving parts the size of countries. I'm just providing food for thought. Also, keep in mind that Mata Nui was planned since the beginning, but his origin was not. The number makes sense in that regard as why not make him as tall as our world if he is one?


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Also, keep in mind that while Mata Nui has about the same height of Earth, it does not mean he has the same size or mass. Planets are big spheres and Mata Nui has a humanoid shape. Not to mention that the GSR was also hallow in order to host the MU.

 

Don't you mean hollow? Hallow(ed) is something quite different.

  • Upvote 1

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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Also, keep in mind that while Mata Nui has about the same height of Earth, it does not mean he has the same size or mass. Planets are big spheres and Mata Nui has a humanoid shape. Not to mention that the GSR was also hallow in order to host the MU.

Don't you mean hollow? Hallow(ed) is something quite different.

 

Maybe it was hallow to the Matoran, since you know, Mata Nui being their guardian deity and all...  :P

  • Upvote 1

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Basic reason most arguments against it don't work -- it's supposed to be "mind-bogglingly huge." So being "ridiculous" is generally a good thing in this case. :)

 

How about we all recognize that "mind-boggling huge universe inside a giant" is SUPPOSED to be difficult to grasp and even supposed to raise issues (that we can then apply our brains and imagination and yes fun to analyze and look for solutions :))?

 

There is this thing in fiction called the "suspension of disbelief". I know we're talking about the story where ice sinks, but I'd like to think there's somewhere where people actually care about not stretching it until it snaps.

 

(and AM was uninhabited and all ocean so doesn't matter)

 

I don't see how this is relevant to the fact that a robot Mata Nui's size laying down on a planet any smaller in diameter than Neptune would probably look something like this.

 

(Not to mention all canon sources have shown the water on Aqua Magna coming to about mid-calf which implies a pretty large planet with a pretty deep ocean, but you're probably going to argue those representations aren't canon and only the Word of Greg can be trusted.)

Edited by Dina Saruyama
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Onto other less lengthy concerns, there's the matter of how (and why) anyone could (and would) build such a monstrous robot. The population on Spherus Magna seems to be incredibly low so where did the workforce come from?

It's confirmed that Matoran built the GSR. There were a lot of them.

 

No doubt they would need to build a succession of incrementally larger robots to enable the construction of a 40 million foot GSR. Matoran would be utterly useless and we never see ANY sort of industry on Spherus Magna in known canon to my knowledge.

Why are the Matoran useless? Also, why do you assume that Spherus Magna never had any industry? I always headcanoned it as destroyed in the Shattering, hence why the event was so devastating to the inhabitants. It's like if all of our technology were suddenly destroyed and we had to go back to the "stone age" - that would suck.

 

I'll concede that this issue does exist for the 27 million-foot tall (yes that's confirmed, I found it when searching for something else) prototype robot, since Matoran didn't exist then. But that just shows that they had to have a bunch of workers and industry. If they have low population, how are they going to fight a war? Spherus probably had a huge population before the war and the Shattering, which probably killed a bunch of them.

 

I think people have got this sorta thing going on that the Core War was a bunch of primitives fighting with picks and axes. It's probably more realistic that they were fighting with fire cannons and other technologically advanced weaponry. Even if the Great Beings hoarded all the technology for themselves in terms of living conditions, they probably would have hired at least some of them to build things before the war and that breech of trust.

 

Also as another poster mentioned, why build something so much bigger than it needs to be when a smaller robot could easily do the same job better? There were mere thousands of Matoran in the GSR so why do they need 40million feet of robot to live in? Not to mention the fact that as size increases so does complexity and therefore upkeep. In the same way that larger rockets require more fuel to take off, a larger GSR would need more workers to maintain it, so where are they? A few thousand matoran could never be expected to maintain such a huge robot. Let's not forget it's called a 'universe'. So either we have millions of additional matoran that we simply never saw or the GSR itself is significantly smaller than advertised!

This bot was designed to assemble a planet. That takes a large amount of energy. It's also confirmed that the Matoran population numbers in the millions IIRC.

 

@bones: I'm making a mental note to self to resume my habit of putting an "Other" option on polls of this type...

Edited by fishers64
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Basic reason most arguments against it don't work -- it's supposed to be "mind-bogglingly huge." So being "ridiculous" is generally a good thing in this case. :)

 

How about we all recognize that "mind-boggling huge universe inside a giant" is SUPPOSED to be difficult to grasp and even supposed to raise issues (that we can then apply our brains and imagination and yes fun to analyze and look for solutions :))?

 

Why is the intention of the author relevant here?  Deliberately writing something nonsensical doesn't really excuse it from being nonsensical, unless you assume that the author's intention is all that matters in evaluating a work of art.  Moreover, if the author set out to write something ridiculous, and readers don't like that it's ridiculous, then either the reader or the author is "wrong."  Your approach is charitable to the authors, at least.

 

I tried to make sense of the reasoning behind "the size of the robot is supposed to raise issues, so we can look for any solution short of concluding the number is wrong," but I honestly don't understand.  It smacks of begging the question, but I'm having difficulty parsing the linear reasoning in that statement.

 

~ BioGio

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"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."

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Also, keep in mind that while Mata Nui has about the same height of Earth, it does not mean he has the same size or mass. Planets are big spheres and Mata Nui has a humanoid shape. Not to mention that the GSR was also hallow in order to host the MU.

Don't you mean hollow? Hallow(ed) is something quite different.

 

Maybe it was hallow to the Matoran, since you know, Mata Nui being their guardian deity and all...  :P

 

Well, he is the Great Spirit. :P

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i think one of the biggest factors here is that the GSR should not be seen as being built to be impressive, since the 40,000,000 ft size defies the bara-magnan's limited time, and limited resources. and even though it obvs had to be huge, it did not have to be, and i quote:

 

"mind-bogglingly huge."

 

even the smaller robot sizes are kinda stretching the disbelief if we are to assume they were building these with knowledge that their planet was exploding. :t

 

(also they had no reason to, at any time, build a robot with a height to match the diameter of a terrestrial planet, [also aqua magna is a terrestrial plant and thus could not be big enough to support a 40,000,000 foot robot.])

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i think one of the biggest factors here is that the GSR should not be seen as being built to be impressive, since the 40,000,000 ft size defies the bara-magnan's limited time, and limited resources. and even though it obvs had to be huge, it did not have to be, and i quote:

 

"mind-bogglingly huge."

 

even the smaller robot sizes are kinda stretching the disbelief if we are to assume they were building these with knowledge that their planet was exploding. :t

 

(also they had no reason to, at any time, build a robot with a height to match the diameter of a terrestrial planet, [also aqua magna is a terrestrial plant and thus could not be big enough to support a 40,000,000 foot robot.])

 

We were never given a time length of how long the Core War lasted. Not all wars are 4-8 years long. On Earth, we've had a war that lasted 30 years, another 80 years; and the longest one, the continuous wars and conflicts between the Roman Empire and three Persian Empires, lasted about 600 years before being totally crushed by the Caliphates. Given the immortality of the Element Lords due to the nature of their armor and the sheer size of the planet Spherus Magna, it could have lasted a heck of a long time.

 

And with how long the war could have lasted and continuous failed peace-attempts, the Great Beings could have had plenty of time to construct a large-arse robot north of all the fighting.

 

 

EDIT: Misspelled the word 'Caliphates'. Sorry 'bout that.

Edited by Iaredios
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i think one of the biggest factors here is that the GSR should not be seen as being built to be impressive, since the 40,000,000 ft size defies the bara-magnan's limited time, and limited resources. and even though it obvs had to be huge, it did not have to be, and i quote:

 

"mind-bogglingly huge."

 

even the smaller robot sizes are kinda stretching the disbelief if we are to assume they were building these with knowledge that their planet was exploding. :t

 

(also they had no reason to, at any time, build a robot with a height to match the diameter of a terrestrial planet, [also aqua magna is a terrestrial plant and thus could not be big enough to support a 40,000,000 foot robot.])

 

We were never given a time length of how long the Core War lasted. Not all wars are 4-8 years long. On Earth, we've had a war that lasted 30 years, another 80 years; and the longest one, the continuous wars and conflicts between the Roman Empire and three Persian Empires, lasted about 600 years before being totally crushed by the Calipahtes. Given the immortality of the Element Lords due to the nature of their armor and the sheer size of the planet Spherus Magna, it could have lasted a heck of a long time.

 

And with how long the war could have lasted and continuous failed peace-attempts, the Great Beings could have had plenty of time to construct a large-arse robot north of all the fighting.

 

 

okay, i was under the impression the robot was made after the war and not during it, so that fault's on me but,

 

there is still no explanation or reason for why the GSR is, according to greg, impossibly large for travel to-and-from terrestrial planets, which i am to assume are the planets it would be looking for. :0

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Sharnak:
 

Why do so many people keep claiming Greg made the "40 Million" number out of nowhere? It's an approximation of the Earth's diameter. I don't see how it could be seen as unintentional.


Probably mainly because he didn't give any reasoning when he announced it. :) And he's given math for some other things.

That goes both ways, though -- until somebody actually asks him, we don't know if he did or didn't. There's been some cases where he didn't volunteer it until asked, so... Since people keep bringing it up, how about somebody does ask before the past gets even more distant and forgetting more likely?
 

the GSR was also h[o]llow in order to host the MU.


Can I presume the reason you bring it up is to counter the idea that the giant might have too much mass and mess up a planet's orbit or something?

If so, I don't think this is a valid counter, because to fit the islands in domes, they need shrunk quite a bit from the official map (with respect to distance between them), so the domes they end up in are probably fairly small compared to the giant. That's still a lot of air, yes, but "the giant is hollow" isn't really how I'd put it. :P

(But it also has artificial gravity systems, so no reason to assume the mass is a problem.)
 

I bet if you were to take the MU and turn it into a crust, it would actually be much smaller than the Earth


That's correct. One of these days I should sketch that. :P Or somebody else could...

*reads on* No, the realistic version, on a sized up planet (since Greg confirmed it's larger), but not a "megaplanet" like the artistic portrayals, not one purposefully made to counter a strawman. :P

Dina:
 

There is this thing in fiction called the "suspension of disbelief". I know we're talking about the story where ice sinks, but I'd like to think there's somewhere where people actually care about not stretching it until it snaps.

*raises hand*

When something objectively makes no sense, I pull no punches. But that goes both ways -- critics on this subject are often careless in their reasoning and in the interest of "practice makes perfect", pointing out flaws in the reasoning on that side is important too. :) This has been discussed for a long time, keep in mind, and most of the anti arguments being brought up have already been debunked in the past.

That said, I've seen a few new ones and even a new suggestion  recently (and even if we hadn't, we always need to be open to the possibility of good points in the future :)).

The basic problem is that many people seem to want to find the slightest problem to justify making the most extreme changes to a story.

I say that we should FIRST look for simpler solutions that change things less dramatically, and only appeal to big "universe-shrinking" approaches as a last resort.

So for example, if the travel times are a bit wonky, just imagine the story took a bit longer than originally stated, rather than shrinking the giant. I can't help but notice that many leap past that. Problem with such a dramatic change is that something that basic being established for a while means other things in the story have likely been built on it, often in ways you don't realize at first.

And if a shrinking was adopted, and it doesn't make sense, you can bet that over time people will find the problems and we'll have this whole thing over again. So thinking this out is warranted.

This is not an "any criticism flies" zone, anymore than an "anything goes in story" one. ;)
 

those representations aren't canon


They're canon so far as what they were intended to portray and what the artists checked up on. You really think a comic artist, for example, is going to have asked for pinned-down sizes of the planet (that even we haven't gotten) and estimate ocean depths etc.? More likely they were told "He's HUUUUUGE! Head above the clouds! Draw it!"


fishers:
 

Why are the Matoran useless?


I almost called Munty on that too, but looking more closely, I think it just means "useless for putting the giant pieces together." As in by muscle power alone. Which is true... but also so obvious as to not need mentioned. :shrugs:

BG:
 

Why is the intention of the author relevant here?  Deliberately writing something nonsensical


This is circular reasoning since whether it's nonsensical is what's being questioned.
 

"the size of the robot is supposed to raise issues, so we can look for any solution short of concluding the number is wrong," but I honestly don't understand.


Try comparing it to similar issues in real life that are about actual things (so can't be just retconned away) that are hard to understand and took people a long time of hard work to understand, etc. Remember Bionicle (G1 anyways) was intended to take some work to understand. This encourages people to think, which is good practice for life. :)

(Which means that those raising criticisms are actually doing something good, but where their reasoning isn't where it should be, it can help to point out why.)

It also makes it more realistic, ironically, rather than only doing "timid" things that take no thought to accept. :shrugs:
 

the GSR should not be seen as being built to be impressive


In-story, no, but "mind-boggling" was definitely the out-of-story feeling they were aiming for, and that matters because this IS fiction written for the target audience. :)

I haven't yet attempted a complete and serious analysis of all of what would be needed and wouldn't (although a lot has been said on this in the many topics over the years), but from what's been brought forward so far, a lot of possible reasons in-story have been brought up too. (And generally the critics in each new topic about this seem to ignore all of that and we have to start over... Almost grounds for an official topic... but eh...)

Some possibilities are:

-Supply storage space for the longer journeys between stars (alternatively, massive hyperdrive engines, but that option was turned down more recently). Including fuel storage.

-Machinery needed for the reforming.

-Possibly large-scale seismic sensors for the geologic studies.

-Simply needing to be big enough to be fairly immoveable compared to the moons it must manipulate (so asking a shrunken bot to do it might be like asking a human to lift a semi).

-Power storage in something like capacitors to be charged for the reforming task itself.

-Open land space inside some domes for "wild" -- for plenty of plant coverage to recycle the air.

I could go on but you get the picture. Could we imagine this all squeezed into a robot down to half or less the canon size? Yeah, but let's face it, it gets less plausible. Criticisms almost never factor any of this -- they only list cons (usually). But every alternative would have both pros and cons. :)

RL:
 

even the smaller robot sizes are kinda stretching the disbelief if we are to assume they were building these with knowledge that their planet was exploding. :t


Agreed (except that the powers protodermis enables seem to make this not a problem, since a huge amount of mass could probably be made in a relatively short time, for example) -- but that also shows why it probably isn't worth it to shrink the giant at all. It can't really be tamed and still fit all the things above, plus "continents."

(Or the Mata Nui island size; below about half, the eyes would get too close to fit under where we were told they are, so that's two numbers needing changed, and story based on a number from almost near the beginning might be accidently contradicted...)
 

they had no reason to


How do you know? This looks like the fallacy of the universal negative to me. But see above for several possible in-story reasons. :)
 

okay, i was under the impression the robot was made after the war and not during it


To clear that up, the war was ended by the Shattering (well, some fighting might have continued for a bit, unsure), and the giant launched at that time too. :)

Edited by bonesiii

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okay bones, i'll say it here,

 

the largest continent in GSR is the southern continent, if my memory serves, and even that wasn't a continent by earthen standards in that it's probs a decent meansure smaller than australia. so, i doubt a reason the robot is that big is the need to fit quote:

"continents."

unquote.

 

and,

 

Remember Bionicle (G1 anyways) was intended to take some work to understand. This encourages people to think, which is good practice for life. :)

 

for the love of artakha, this statement is a downside. a reader shouldn't have to do work or math or theorizing just to enjoy reading a story, if they do. it's probably a poorly written story! (something i can't really say Gen1 Bionicle isn't. d:)

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This has been discussed for a long time, keep in mind, and most of the anti arguments being brought up have already been debunked in the past.

 

Where? Every rebuttal I've seen you make against these arguments invariably falls back on "it's a work of fiction, and therefore doesn't need to make sense". You invoke "bonkles physics", and "keep in mind it's supposed to be mindbogglingly huge", and "Bionicle was supposed to take work to understand", but never actually address the base concerns. For example, you have yet to address my point about the supersizing of everything in the universe actually downplaying the "mindbogglingly huge" robot. How can that be said to be debunked? Moreover, how can it be debunked? And it definitely isn't debunked that the robot's size sets a size for Aqua Magna at least in the range of gas giants (as otherwise he could not possibly have hidden on its surface), which pushes Bara Magna (and, resultingly, Spherus Magna) to absurd proportions. And if people say the size of the robot snaps their suspension of disbelief, how can you possibly debunk that, especially if you rely on "well this universe has different physics from ours, except when it doesn't"?

 

I say that we should FIRST look for simpler solutions that change things less dramatically, and only appeal to big "universe-shrinking" approaches as a last resort.

 

Really? Seems to me that "needs to fit what I define as a continent" is a fairly more flimsy reason to throw every other concern under the bus and make the robot enormous than upholding those reasons and accepting that maybe the robot's a little oversized. I mean, even with our massive robot, we have yet to have a canon map that would actually fit the known continents in the robot anyway. Even you had to fudge things to fit it in your map. Was that really worth sacrificing many reader's suspension of disbelief and the overall scale of the universe?

 

Remember Bionicle (G1 anyways) was intended to take some work to understand.

 

Can I see a source on that? You say that any time someone says something doesn't make sense, and I want to know if it's something a member of the story team actually said, or something you came up with to rationalize its many rough patches?

 

edit:

but that also shows why it probably isn't worth it to shrink the giant at all. It can't really be tamed and still fit all the things above, plus "continents."

 

Sure, if you're already stretching disbelief, why not go the whole hog and snap it completely by supersizing it? Sure, now it's gone from "slightly inconceivable" to "this is like seriously suggesting that non-avian dinosaurs and humans ever coexisted", but since when did the audience actually matter to Bionicle?

Edited by Dina Saruyama
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Please answer why the author's intention matters.  I didn't mean to say that the size of the robot is necessarily nonsensical.  What I'm saying is that if we treat the author's intention as solely determining whether something is "true" within a work of fiction, then we have to accept even nonsensical statements.  So why do we have to bear in mind that the size of the robot was intentionally made ridiculous (and therefore its being ridiculous is a good thing)?

 

I'm not sure why it's useful to treat fictional canon as though it were indisputably true.  In real life, if we have two contradictory observations, then something to do with out observations is wrong (bad equipment giving wrong measurements, etc.).  But in fiction, we can actually have contradictory facts, since statements about fiction do not describe propositions in the real world and thus are not bound by the law of non-contradiction.  Treating issues in fiction as un-retcon-able totally untenable for this reason.  I understand that different people may have different standards for what counts as a contradiction (after all, this is an inductive problem, so it's not as simple as finding p and ~p), but we cannot have the same approach to fiction as to real life since otherwise we're treating fiction as though it were governed by the same logical axioms as real life.*

 

Even if it's beneficial to exegete Greg Farshtey's statements because doing so makes people think, I'm still not convinced that:  a) it was really intended that people need to do tons of math to understand BIONICLE; b) whether it was even intended matters.  (Also, I'd just like to point out that Dina Saruyama's objections to this point are similarly relevant, if from a different approach.)

 

~ BioGio

 

*Good fiction generally does follow the same axioms, but not all fiction necessarily does.

Edited by BioGio
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"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."

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a reader shouldn't have to do work or math or theorizing just to enjoy reading a story

 

And they don't -- that goes for the people who decided to try to do a little math in order to try to argue that the giant's size doesn't work. :) Most fans probably never thought farther than "wow that's big! Look at the lasers!"

 

 

"it's a work of fiction, and therefore doesn't need to make sense". You invoke "bonkles physics", and "keep in mind it's supposed to be mindbogglingly huge", and "Bionicle was supposed to take work to understand"

 

And do you have any actual arguments against these things? Listing points raised against a claim alone doesn't address them. :)

 

 

never actually address the base concerns.

 

? An odd statement, but I'll read on to see what you mean. If you have different "base concerns" than most people that have brought up issues before, that's fine. But the main concerns people have raised are plausibility, which is where the looking at the math and such has come into play, and difficulty of grasping, which is where answers like the ones you mentioned above come up. :)

 

 

For example, you have yet to address my point about the supersizing of everything in the universe actually downplaying the "mindbogglingly huge" robot.

 

First, your saying this first after the previous makes it sound like this was a big and commonly brought up point in the past topics, but I don't really recall it. You said it above, but wasn't this already addressed? Not 100% sure what you mean by it, but it looks like it's about the megaplanets interpretation.

 

It's also an emotional argument, so probably taste-based. I actually preferred the megaplanet concept myself, and liked that both the planet and the giant were huge. :)

 

 

Moreover, how can it be debunked?

 

If you mean it just as a taste thing, it can't be (as in your tastes are what they are), but it also can't debunk the plausibility of the giant's current size either. I was talking about arguments against its size in terms of plausibility, wisdom of choice for the target audience, etc. :)

 

(The latter can involve taste, but since you're the only person I recall bringing it up, I doubt it is a common taste. :shrugs: Then again, my memory is horrible, so...)

 

 

the robot's size sets a size for Aqua Magna at least in the range of gas giants (as otherwise he could not possibly have hidden on its surface)

 

Depends on the typical ocean depth, actually. This one definitely fit the megaplanets idea better, but oh well.

 

 

 

Please answer why the author's intention matters.

 

I didn't answer this as I'm not sure what you mean by it. Matters to what, for example? And I don't recall making a big deal out of author's intention. The quote you put where you said that seemed to be really stretching to get that out of what I said.

 

I would say author's intention matters for... knowing the... author's intention? :P

 

Which is usually something fans of that author's work are curious about. So... kinda puzzling you seem to be suggesting otherwise. :shrugs:

 

 

I didn't mean to say that the size of the robot is necessarily nonsensical.

 

Okay, that's a step in the right direction. :)

 

 

What I'm saying is that if we treat the author's intention as solely determining whether something is "true" within a work of fiction

 

Lemme pause you right there. This was brought up, at least in the other topic, because people (Sailor, and then Alvis) [Edit: well, "seemed to mistake" or didn't word it clearly enough anyways] a conceptual portrayal for the canon size against Greg's size, forgetting that Greg was put in charge of the canon. Like I said there, that doesn't mean Greg's canon answer is the wisest one. It just means that it's the currently canon one and if people think they have a better idea, they should bring it up with him and not pretend their idea is canon. :)

 

Or, just have headcanon. :shrugs:

 

 

 

So why do we have to bear in mind that the size of the robot was intentionally made ridiculous (and therefore its being ridiculous is a good thing)?

 

Basically, anything out of the ordinary can be perceived as both awesome (mind-boggling, amazing, whatever word you want to pick... I went the Emmet route :P) and ridiculous (absurd, etc.) depending on tastes. Happens all the time, practically like clockwork. :P

 

Often avoiding the negative reaction means you have to make things bland. If taken to the extreme, that would end up meaning fiction would have to be just like real life, which is boring (to those who want it to be different anyways).

 

 

I'm still not convinced that:  a) it was really intended that people need to do tons of math to understand BIONICLE

 

Never said everybody does. I was presuming it goes without saying that we all know most fans just see cool toys on the shelf and say "HEY ELEMENTAL BLASTERS!" (and giant robots). I'm talking to the people who chose to try to do some math to make a criticism. If you're gonna do it, do it right, yanno?

 

Besides, isn't this just an admission that the critic's math probably doesn't work out?

 

What is the point in making a criticism if the criticism's logic/math/plausibility doesn't have to be held to the high standards that even making a criticism implies Bionicle should be held to?

 

I don't get this. Yet it happens in almost every topic where somebody complains and others point out flaws in their reasoning. People... think a little. Seriously, it's good for you. :)

 

[Edit: Alright, bad timing for that joke. My apologies. That was meant as somewhat self-deprecating humor but from replies on the next page looks like I wasn't clear enough. Anywho. See two posts ahead.]

Edited by bonesiii
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