Poll: Size the Mata Nui robot

[maxim21]

Hm...

 

It would come closer, though, no?

There would still be hundreds of kilometers "sticking out" of the ocean. (For those not used to metric, 100 km ~= 62 milles)

 

Of course, shrinking the robot does reduce a little bit the problem, but it doesn't even come close to solving it, except if we push it to the point it can no longer have an universe inside.

 

(For the record, keeping the same proportions as before, with its current height, the GSR thickness should be around 1625 km)

[LegoSWfan]

40 million is the only reasonable way the Matoran could live without knowing thier world was really a big person. Too small and they would have noticed that the "walls" of the universe were man-shaped. We really need more information on the internal layout of the MNR, such as how the continents relate to the robots framework.

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

40 million is the only reasonable way the Matoran could live without knowing thier world was really a big person. Too small and they would have noticed that the "walls" of the universe were man-shaped. We really need more information on the internal layout of the MNR, such as how the continents relate to the robots framework.

I believe we knew quite early on that all the islands in the MU exist within dome-shaped structures.

[LegoSWfan]

 

40 million is the only reasonable way the Matoran could live without knowing thier world was really a big person. Too small and they would have noticed that the "walls" of the universe were man-shaped. We really need more information on the internal layout of the MNR, such as how the continents relate to the robots framework.

 

I believe we knew quite early on that all the islands in the MU exist within dome-shaped structures.

Yes, but not much is said beyond that. If the MNR's optics served as Metru Nui's Suns, were large artificial lights used to light up other islands? I think one of the serials said that lightstones were embedded in the domes to simulate stars. Could they have been brightened durning the "day" to give the illusion of a sun?

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

 

40 million is the only reasonable way the Matoran could live without knowing thier world was really a big person. Too small and they would have noticed that the "walls" of the universe were man-shaped. We really need more information on the internal layout of the MNR, such as how the continents relate to the robots framework.

I believe we knew quite early on that all the islands in the MU exist within dome-shaped structures.

Yes, but not much is said beyond that. If the MNR's optics served as Metru Nui's Suns, were large artificial lights used to light up other islands? I think one of the serials said that lightstones were embedded in the domes to simulate stars. Could they have been brightened durning the "day" to give the illusion of a sun?

 

i always figured there would be no sun, just a brightened day. Imagine a bright blue sky but no giant light blinding your peripheral vision. Stuff like that makes the  MU is a surreal place. Also, the addition of not one but two suns to the City of Legends would help the atmosphere of grandeur and majesty when compared to the rest of the primitive looking Matoran Universe (aside from robotic transportation devices and artificial protodermic chutes).

[LegoSWfan]

 

 

 

40 million is the only reasonable way the Matoran could live without knowing thier world was really a big person. Too small and they would have noticed that the "walls" of the universe were man-shaped. We really need more information on the internal layout of the MNR, such as how the continents relate to the robots framework.

 

I believe we knew quite early on that all the islands in the MU exist within dome-shaped structures.

Yes, but not much is said beyond that. If the MNR's optics served as Metru Nui's Suns, were large artificial lights used to light up other islands? I think one of the serials said that lightstones were embedded in the domes to simulate stars. Could they have been brightened durning the "day" to give the illusion of a sun?

i always figured there would be no sun, just a brightened day. Imagine a bright blue sky but no giant light blinding your peripheral vision. Stuff like that makes the  MU is a surreal place. Also, the addition of not one but two suns to the City of Legends would help the atmosphere of grandeur and majesty when compared to the rest of the primitive looking Matoran Universe (aside from robotic transportation devices and artificial protodermic chutes).

Aside from Metru Nui and Artaka (shhhh), the MU is often described as rugged backcountry and mountainous islands. The Matoran live in shacks and seem to lack any advanced technology. And the southern islands are left mostly unexplored. We only really get good descriptions of Mata and Metru Nui, Voya Nui is just said to be mostly jungle and volcanoes. Most of the seriels seem to ignore such details.

 

And what of the sea gates that isolate the domes? And if one has to pass a mountain chain to reach Karzaani from Metru Nui, how does one GET to said mountains? Do the sea gates have some sort of mechanism to shut them, or must this be done manually?

 

If the "mind" of the MNR is located beneath Metru Nui, why is Metru Nui described as being the mind?

[Ford]

Aside from Metru Nui and Artaka (shhhh), the MU is often described as rugged backcountry and mountainous islands. The Matoran live in shacks and seem to lack any advanced technology. And the southern islands are left mostly unexplored. We only really get good descriptions of Mata and Metru Nui, Voya Nui is just said to be mostly jungle and volcanoes. Most of the seriels seem to ignore such details.

And what of the sea gates that isolate the domes? And if one has to pass a mountain chain to reach Karzaani from Metru Nui, how does one GET to said mountains? Do the sea gates have some sort of mechanism to shut them, or must this be done manually?

 

If the "mind" of the MNR is located beneath Metru Nui, why is Metru Nui described as being the mind?

I usually think of the GSR's contents as organs, which are the "domes". The pathways, or the sea gates, are the veins/arteries/capillaries that join all of the areas together.

Metru Nui is considered the brain because it takes up enough of the dome it is in to be called that. I imagine that the sea of protodermis could be lymph/blood/cerebrospinal fluid, etc.

So if Metru Nui is the brain, then...

• Karda Nui is the heart
• Karzahni is the malfunctioning spleen
• Zakaz is the... stomach?

[The 1st Shadow]

Aside from Metru Nui and Artaka (shhhh), the MU is often described as rugged backcountry and mountainous islands. The Matoran live in shacks and seem to lack any advanced technology. And the southern islands are left mostly unexplored. We only really get good descriptions of Mata and Metru Nui, Voya Nui is just said to be mostly jungle and volcanoes. Most of the seriels seem to ignore such details.

 

You seem to be forgetting the industrial Xia and the trade-hub Stelt. Everywhere else was never actually described, because very little of the story took place there.

 

Destiny War gives us a little bit of Zakaz, though:

 

Brutaka popped over the wall and fired an energy bolt at a half-crumbled building. Shearing through its only support, he sent the structure toppling down on a mob of Skakdi. When the dust cleared, all of them were trapped beneath the rubble.

 

Sounds like there used to be buildings, but they got destroyed during the Skakdi wars.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

 

 

Yes, but not much is said beyond that. If the MNR's optics served as Metru Nui's Suns, were large artificial lights used to light up other islands? I think one of the serials said that lightstones were embedded in the domes to simulate stars. Could they have been brightened durning the "day" to give the illusion of a sun?

i always figured there would be no sun, just a brightened day. Imagine a bright blue sky but no giant light blinding your peripheral vision. Stuff like that makes the  MU is a surreal place. Also, the addition of not one but two suns to the City of Legends would help the atmosphere of grandeur and majesty when compared to the rest of the primitive looking Matoran Universe (aside from robotic transportation devices and artificial protodermic chutes).

Aside from Metru Nui and Artaka (shhhh), the MU is often described as rugged backcountry and mountainous islands. The Matoran live in shacks and seem to lack any advanced technology. And the southern islands are left mostly unexplored. We only really get good descriptions of Mata and Metru Nui, Voya Nui is just said to be mostly jungle and volcanoes. Most of the seriels seem to ignore such details.

 

And what of the sea gates that isolate the domes? And if one has to pass a mountain chain to reach Karzaani from Metru Nui, how does one GET to said mountains? Do the sea gates have some sort of mechanism to shut them, or must this be done manually?

 

If the "mind" of the MNR is located beneath Metru Nui, why is Metru Nui described as being the mind?

 

 

Why did you describe the MU to me? I know what it looks like. xD They build everything out of rock and use stone to write.

 

I am not sure if it was canonically ever described as the brain. It's more like the very tip of surface of the brain (mind is meta-physical, brain is physical), sort of like an iceberg. Only place I have always seen it described as the brain is by fans.

 

 

I usually think of the GSR's contents as organs, which are the "domes". The pathways, or the sea gates, are the veins/arteries/capillaries that join all of the areas together.

Metru Nui is considered the brain because it takes up enough of the dome it is in to be called that. I imagine that the sea of protodermis could be lymph/blood/cerebrospinal fluid, etc.

So if Metru Nui is the brain, then...

• Karda Nui is the heart
• Karzahni is the malfunctioning spleen
• Zakaz is the... stomach?

 

I think it has been said that other then Metru-Nui and Karda-Nui, the rest of the universe doesn't play any sort of organ role, just that the surface of the continents has a mixture of systems beneath it and so this is why the Matoran labor hard, to ensure that his survival (after the Battle of Bara Magna I imagine this labor is continued in remembrance, like a religious tradition of the sort).

 

Anyways, I always saw the realm of Karzanhi being like Mata Nui's sore throat.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Iaredios

[LegoSWfan]

 

Aside from Metru Nui and Artaka (shhhh), the MU is often described as rugged backcountry and mountainous islands. The Matoran live in shacks and seem to lack any advanced technology. And the southern islands are left mostly unexplored. We only really get good descriptions of Mata and Metru Nui, Voya Nui is just said to be mostly jungle and volcanoes. Most of the seriels seem to ignore such details.

 

And what of the sea gates that isolate the domes? And if one has to pass a mountain chain to reach Karzaani from Metru Nui, how does one GET to said mountains? Do the sea gates have some sort of mechanism to shut them, or must this be done manually?

If the "mind" of the MNR is located beneath Metru Nui, why is Metru Nui described as being the mind?

 

I usually think of the GSR's contents as organs, which are the "domes". The pathways, or the sea gates, are the veins/arteries/capillaries that join all of the areas together.

Metru Nui is considered the brain because it takes up enough of the dome it is in to be called that. I imagine that the sea of protodermis could be lymph/blood/cerebrospinal fluid, etc.

So if Metru Nui is the brain, then...

• Karda Nui is the heart
• Karzahni is the malfunctioning spleen
• Zakaz is the... stomach?

Does that make Artaka the Pancreas then? Although with it being the hub of tech creation, it could be seen as the Lymph nodes or the thyroids.

 

 

Aside from Metru Nui and Artaka (shhhh), the MU is often described as rugged backcountry and mountainous islands. The Matoran live in shacks and seem to lack any advanced technology. And the southern islands are left mostly unexplored. We only really get good descriptions of Mata and Metru Nui, Voya Nui is just said to be mostly jungle and volcanoes. Most of the seriels seem to ignore such details.

 

You seem to be forgetting the industrial Xia and the trade-hub Stelt. Everywhere else was never actually described, because very little of the story took place there.

 

Destiny War gives us a little bit of Zakaz, though:

 

Brutaka popped over the wall and fired an energy bolt at a half-crumbled building. Shearing through its only support, he sent the structure toppling down on a mob of Skakdi. When the dust cleared, all of them were trapped beneath the rubble.

 

Sounds like there used to be buildings, but they got destroyed during the Skakdi wars.

 

Aside from Metru Nui and Artaka (shhhh), the MU is often described as rugged backcountry and mountainous islands. The Matoran live in shacks and seem to lack any advanced technology. And the southern islands are left mostly unexplored. We only really get good descriptions of Mata and Metru Nui, Voya Nui is just said to be mostly jungle and volcanoes. Most of the seriels seem to ignore such details.

 

You seem to be forgetting the industrial Xia and the trade-hub Stelt. Everywhere else was never actually described, because very little of the story took place there.

 

Destiny War gives us a little bit of Zakaz, though:

 

Brutaka popped over the wall and fired an energy bolt at a half-crumbled building. Shearing through its only support, he sent the structure toppling down on a mob of Skakdi. When the dust cleared, all of them were trapped beneath the rubble.

 

Sounds like there used to be buildings, but they got destroyed during the Skakdi wars.

Oh! How could I forget! I haven't read the stories in a while. Sorry. Edited April 23, 2015 by Decepticonwarrior

[Ford]

Perhaps I am looking at this whole organ thing in the wrong way. What if the domes are not organs, but organ systems? Allow me to explain:

• The entirety of the dome that houses Metru Nui is the Nervous system, Central (b/c Metru Nui is the brain) and Peripheral (b/c the "suns" are the eyes".
• The dome that houses Karda Nui is the cardiovascular system (get it? Karda, Cardio?  )
• Artakha could be the Endocrine system, as it makes new things to be used elsewhere that can be further used to make new things (like the Nuva cube or the Great Disks)
• Karzahni could be a part of the Immune and Lymphatic system, as it is meant to be the place where things go to be repaired. Or it could just be the throat. A very strep throat.
• The Northern and Southern continents, Destral, Daxia, and Odina could be... the Respiratory system?
• The Southern Islands are definitely the Digestion and Renal systems. Now I understand why no one ventures down there... I made a joke   

Feel free to share what the rest could be!

[Thormen]

I voted smaller, although I can suspend my disbelief here and I definitely don't want the number retconned. I have a number of reasons and mathematical considerations why I prefer a smaller size (and the size of Faber's concept art in particular), but they've all been featured at some point in this topic so to avoid rererererehashing this stuff and reigniting the powderkeg that went off before I'm not going to mention them.

 

However I'm opposed to asking Greg to retcon his original figure because it's such a direct contradiction and substantially devaluates his answers in general. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we still have a double canon about which celestial object hit the Great Spirit Robot on the head. If we can have that kind of inconsistency to preserve the value of canon sources, I think we can suspend our disbelief on this matter as well. I just wish we'd have never had a 40 million feet/12 000 km, but what's done is done.

 

I might be missing something, but shrinking the robot down because of ocean depth doesn't solve the problem.

 

If I got the proportions right, a 3150 km tall robot would be around 400 km thick. The deepest part of ocean on Earth is Mariana Trench, and it only go as deep as 11 km. If we keep the same proportion, a 11 km thick robot would be around 80 km tall - which would not work for something with islands inside.

I don't see this being such a big problem, actually. No, the Great Spirit Robot would not fit underwater in the Mariana Trench, and yes, most of the earth's ocean floor is far shallower than said Trench, but Aqua Magna is simply not earth. Aqua Magna is the great ocean, I can live with its floor being much deeper than that of earth's oceans (yes, even orders of magnitude deeper).

 

On top of that, the ocean does not have to be as deep as the GSR is thick if we assume that the GSR made a crater on impact. For all we know, most of the GSR was actually within this crater and only the top layer was covered in water. Unless somebody can give me an official number for the mass of the GSR and the material properties of Aqua Magna's rock, I see no reason why this should be impossible.

 

And for what it's worth, Greg's quote about how BIONICLE was always intended to require work to understand was from that interview the Three Virtues podcast on YouTube did with him (though I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to this kind of thing).

[N.S.M.8]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we still have a double canon about which celestial object hit the Great Spirit Robot on the head.

From BS01:

 

Teridax's death differs in several sources; both Journey's End and the Mata Nui Saga describe it as the entire Bota Magna planet which crashes into his head, while the canon death is from a moon fragment, described in the later sources Sahmad's Tale and Glatorian Comic 7: Rebirth.

(Emphasis mine)

[Xan]

I think it should have been the size shown in the around the world video. 

 

Just seems more realistic. Even though a big robot isn't too realistic to begin with. 

[Takhamavahu]

It's not really about "reasonable". it's more that 40 million feet is the only thing that, although canon, contradicts every other relavent piece of previously established canon which agree with each other. It's inconsistent. It's a continuity error.

[The 1st Shadow]

It's not really about "reasonable". it's more that 40 million feet is the only thing that, although canon, contradicts every other relavent piece of previously established canon which agree with each other. It's inconsistent. It's a continuity error.

Since when was it inconsistent? 

 

Assuming you're talking about the dimensions of Mata Nui and Metru Nui, bear in mind that the dimensions we got for Mata Nui was from a magazine extra, and Metru Nui has been explained by myself and bonesii multiple times in both this and the other topic.

 

Besides, measurements for neither of those islands were ever directly reflected in any story material, while the 40 million foot tall robot was. No inconsistency here.

[Thormen]

Assuming you're talking about the dimensions of Mata Nui and Metru Nui, bear in mind that the dimensions we got for Mata Nui was from a magazine extra, and Metru Nui has been explained by myself and bonesii multiple times in both this and the other topic.

 

Besides, measurements for neither of those islands were ever directly reflected in any story material, while the 40 million foot tall robot was. No inconsistency here.

Actually I recall the dimensions of the island of Mata Nui were featured on the BIONICLE.com website back in 2001. The page about the island stated what its length and width were in kio and explained what the average height of a Toa was in bio. I don't know which magazine extra you are referring to, but assuming it was consistent with the info on the 2001 website I'd say it was a pretty firmly established part of the story bible.

 

Edit: In the interest of providing sources: I couldn't manage to get on an archived page of the BIONICLE.com website from 2001, but this is one from december 2002 that shows what I mean.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Thormen

[Munty]

Every time I see a post crop up about 'how deep the oceans are' an 'how there's no curvature' and whatever else (including in my own musings) I always draw an image in my head which I think doesn't seem to occur to most people. There have been (as was mentioned) multiple depictions of the planetoids Aqua and Bota Magna, which can sometimes vary drastically. Yet people never seem to question how it is that these two 'chunks' of what was once a single larger planet are usually depicted as perfectly spherical, despite having been essentially blown out of the side of Spherus Magna. That would suggest a more conical shape, or at the very least a much more irregular one. It would also suggest that Bota Magna would only be forested on one side (think of it like slicing a pie, It doesn't suddenly have a crust in the middle does it?!)

 

So after much musing I thought I'd do a doodle and share it here. This is my personal imagining of the Aqua Magna 'shard'. Note it is still a planetoid and would appear mostly spherical due to the large amount of liquid. It is also held in Geo-synchronous orbit above the planet, as is Bota Magna. They never escaped the gravitational pull of Bara Magna after all or they would've long since disappeared and there is no reason to imagine any orbital forces were present during the shattering which was in essence a purely outward explosion of energy. These planetoids should also be in synchronous orbit for the same reasons so the 'surface' of these shards would always be affected by the gravitational field of Bara Magna but also (due to their immense size) would naturally generate a significant gravitational field of their own. On Aqua Magna in particular this would prevent any boy of water from acquiring a spherical formation as different points on the shard would be affected by varying levels of gravity. The outer crust would experience the pull of both Aqua and Bara Magna's gravitational fields pulling downwards thus creating a shallower ocean and higher localised gravity. The underside of the shard however would experience conflicting forces due to Aqua Magna attempting to retain it's oceans and BAra Magna attempting to remove them. This would result in a much deeper ocean on the side of the shard closer to the planet but also a lower localised gravity.

 

 

Note that in this image, viewing the rising of Mata Nui from the front would result in a false depth perspective in which the planet behind him would appear to go on forever, thus indicating he is standing on an unimaginably large spherical planetoid. In reality, he could be standing on a relatively small, but apparently flat, planetary fragment as illustrated. The crust ends not far behind the robot's place of rising but due to the still huge distances involved it would be impossible to see the 'edge' in any case. Also, by having him rise near to the 'front' edge of the shard, it would suggest that the viewer's perspective in the 'rising' videos we've seen in the past is almost immediately above that other edge of the shard. Leaving us essentially floating in space but unaware of this due to the camera angle... 

 

An issue that continues to exist with this theory is that the official rising video shows the GSR leaving Aqua Magna and when he does so he is merely a speck against an impossibly large planet. But frankly, that particular piece of video will be an issue to ANY possible theories, especially since the Megaplanets theory has been rejected. It's literally impossible to maintain a height of 40 million feet for the GSR without the planet he is leaving being a Megaplanet. Which is then a part of another significantly larger Megaplanet... So if we're going with the 'Greg is always right' theory (which I dislike greatly) then that particular clip is definitely incorrect. Otherwise, I'm not sure how to adapt the size of the planet he is leaving into ANY possible theories, so I for one am actually ok with discounting that. Despite my many other objections to ignoring 'artistic canon'. 

 

Thoughts? Opinions? Objections? Counter-theories?

 

And also... Seeing as it keeps coming up that canon media (though I don't know what that really is anymore as some of it seems to be accepted while other parts are discounted pretty much randomly) portrays the GSR's size in comparison to the Canon size of Mata Nui to be about half Greg's number (200 million feet) should we make some attempt towards discussing that as a new fan accepted measurement while discussions are ongoing? It seems to satisfy people on both sides of the debate and is both far more reasonable while still being mind-bogglingly huge at the same time. I'm not suggesting we make that a final figure, but it seems to have a lot more support than the 400 million foot number so perhaps we should begin using this figue in our discussions instead? Apology for the can'o'worms opening but feel it should be suggested! Also, regarding this point in particular, we need to once again address levels of canon. It was just mentioned that the 'canon' size of Mata Nui originated in a Lego Magazine. Was that still Greg's work? If not I imagine it will be quickly ditched in favour the 400 million foot number so that needs addressing first and foremost. If it IS another Greg number then we have an unresolvable conflict in canon which I would suggest we could resolve in-house (ie. leave Greg alone) Though he did say original answers give precedence right? And seeing as how the island of Mata Nui had lost all significance be the time the GSR was revealed I'd imagine the figure given for it's size wuld be the original figure. Therefore we can technically use that figure and the official pictures of the GSR (By CF) to come to a more accurate AND more canon size of the GSR. It would be condoned by Greg based on his previous rulings so I don't see who would be unhappy with it (providing I haven't made any incorrect assumptions anyway. And I imagine I'll be informed of them very soon if I have

 

 

 

So to summarise...

I think people need to stop viewing Aqua Magna as a spherical planetoid (which helps alleviate several issues such as the size of AM and therefore SM as well as why there's no curvature on AM)

I think we need to look into the official canon size of the island of Mata Nui. If it is Greg work and it pre-dates the 40 million foot number we can use it to change the canon size while adhering to all previous Greg rules.

[Thormen]

Thoughts? Opinions? Objections? Counter-theories?

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that mainly due to the way Aqua Magna was always depicted as a sphere, but you've shown how that works as well. One potential criticism that came in mind is the fact that rotating celestial bodies automatically obtain a somewhat spherical shape over time, but I'm not sure 100,000 years would be long enough for that to have a significant effect and in any case what I previously mentioned about us not knowing the material properties of the rock of Aqua Magna applies here as well (although it might be difficult to make it work both ways: i.e. making the rock soft enough so the Great Spirit Robot can make a decent impact crater but at the same time making the rock hard enough so it doesn't obtain a spherical shape).

 

I see you went with the idea that the Great Ocean is much deeper than our oceans on earth in your doodle. As I said above I'm also in favor of that idea but I think you overdid it a little bit in your doodle considering how the GSR's face was directly underneath the water level. Also I think the GSR should be lying on one of the sides that face towards Bara Magna since the Ignika containing Mata Nui was shot into outer space and subsequently landed on Bara Magna, which would mean the GSR would be lying on the side of the shard where most of the water would accumulate. I get however that it's just a doodle to illustrate your point, but I thought I'd mention those two remarks before people start complaining your theory needs too much water to work.

 

And also... Seeing as it keeps coming up that canon media (though I don't know what that really is anymore as some of it seems to be accepted while other parts are discounted pretty much randomly) portrays the GSR's size in comparison to the Canon size of Mata Nui to be about half Greg's number (200 million feet) should we make some attempt towards discussing that as a new fan accepted measurement while discussions are ongoing? It seems to satisfy people on both sides of the debate and is both far more reasonable while still being mind-bogglingly huge at the same time. I'm not suggesting we make that a final figure, but it seems to have a lot more support than the 400 million foot number so perhaps we should begin using this figue in our discussions instead? Apology for the can'o'worms opening but feel it should be suggested!

I'm pretty sure canon media portray the GSR at 3300 km, which is about 10 million feet, since this was the measurement Christian Faber (who was essentially in charge of the visuals of those same canon media) wrote down on the sketch he released and it checks out with calculations based on the known size of the Island of Mata Nui and depictions of the GSR in said canon media. So if you want to establish a "fan accepted measurement" I suggest starting there, although I have to say I'm very much opposed to the idea of acting like a fan number is more important than the number Greg gave us for reasons I mentioned above. (Also you wrote a 0 too many, thank the Great Beings we're dealing with 40 million feet/12 000 km and not 400 million feet/ 120 000 km! )

 

Also, regarding this point in particular, we need to once again address levels of canon. It was just mentioned that the 'canon' size of Mata Nui originated in a Lego Magazine. Was that still Greg's work? If not I imagine it will be quickly ditched in favour the 400 million foot number so that needs addressing first and foremost. If it IS another Greg number then we have an unresolvable conflict in canon which I would suggest we could resolve in-house (ie. leave Greg alone)

Dunno about the dimensions of the IMN in real world units, but its dimensions relative to the size of Toa were established from the start:

 

Actually I recall the dimensions of the island of Mata Nui were featured on the BIONICLE.com website back in 2001. The page about the island stated what its length and width were in kio and explained what the average height of a Toa was in bio. I don't know which magazine extra you are referring to, but assuming it was consistent with the info on the 2001 website I'd say it was a pretty firmly established part of the story bible.

 

Edit: In the interest of providing sources: I couldn't manage to get on an archived page of the BIONICLE.com website from 2001, but this is one from december 2002 that shows what I mean.

Though he did say original answers give precedence right? And seeing as how the island of Mata Nui had lost all significance be the time the GSR was revealed I'd imagine the figure given for it's size wuld be the original figure. Therefore we can technically use that figure and the official pictures of the GSR (By CF) to come to a more accurate AND more canon size of the GSR. It would be condoned by Greg based on his previous rulings so I don't see who would be unhappy with it (providing I haven't made any incorrect assumptions anyway. And I imagine I'll be informed of them very soon if I have

The problem here is you assume the visual media show us a 100% accurate picture of what happened, while in reality those media are simply depictions of what happened. What was canon about the Mata Nui Rising video and the opening scene of The Legend Reborn was the fact that the GSR rose from the ocean of AM and that the IMN covered his face. The actual measurements the animators used to create the GSR and the IMN are, like all the other graphic details of the videos, not canon, which is why the two videos don't look 100% identical but are still about the same event. That's not to say I wouldn't prefer if the canon truth was very much similar to these videos, but Greg's 40 million feet/12 000 km is still the only hard canon statistic we have about the GSR.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I prefer the canon size cause Mata Nui's drill is the drill that pierced the heavens. 'Cause that's the way Dai-Gurren-Dan rolls.

[Adventurer]

I chose canon size since I like my fiction being extreme and unrealistic by real world standards. Is more exciting that way and more fun for the imagination.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I prefer the canon size cause Mata Nui's drill is the drill that pierced the heavens. 'Cause that's the way Dai-Gurren-Dan rolls.

Tehh --- My brother loves that weird show.

[Munty]

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that mainly due to the way Aqua Magna was always depicted as a sphere, but you've shown how that works as well. One potential criticism that came in mind is the fact that rotating celestial bodies automatically obtain a somewhat spherical shape over time, but I'm not sure 100,000 years would be long enough for that to have a significant effect and in any case what I previously mentioned about us not knowing the material properties of the rock of Aqua Magna applies here as well (although it might be difficult to make it work both ways: i.e. making the rock soft enough so the Great Spirit Robot can make a decent impact crater but at the same time making the rock hard enough so it doesn't obtain a spherical shape).

I see you went with the idea that the Great Ocean is much deeper than our oceans on earth in your doodle. As I said above I'm also in favor of that idea but I think you overdid it a little bit in your doodle considering how the GSR's face was directly underneath the water level. Also I think the GSR should be lying on one of the sides that face towards Bara Magna since the Ignika containing Mata Nui was shot into outer space and subsequently landed on Bara Magna, which would mean the GSR would be lying on the side of the shard where most of the water would accumulate. I get however that it's just a doodle to illustrate your point, but I thought I'd mention those two remarks before people start complaining your theory needs too much water to work.

 

I'm pretty sure canon media portray the GSR at 3300 km, which is about 10 million feet, since this was the measurement Christian Faber (who was essentially in charge of the visuals of those same canon media) wrote down on the sketch he released and it checks out with calculations based on the known size of the Island of Mata Nui and depictions of the GSR in said canon media. So if you want to establish a "fan accepted measurement" I suggest starting there, although I have to say I'm very much opposed to the idea of acting like a fan number is more important than the number Greg gave us for reasons I mentioned above. (Also you wrote a 0 too many, thank the Great Beings we're dealing with 40 million feet/12 000 km and not 400 million feet/ 120 000 km! )

 

The problem here is you assume the visual media show us a 100% accurate picture of what happened, while in reality those media are simply depictions of what happened. What was canon about the Mata Nui Rising video and the opening scene of The Legend Reborn was the fact that the GSR rose from the ocean of AM and that the IMN covered his face. The actual measurements the animators used to create the GSR and the IMN are, like all the other graphic details of the videos, not canon, which is why the two videos don't look 100% identical but are still about the same event. That's not to say I wouldn't prefer if the canon truth was very much similar to these videos, but Greg's 40 million feet/12 000 km is still the only hard canon statistic we have about the GSR.

 

Hey Thormen, thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response I added emphasis to the points I'll respond to and also copied them below. I've left the full quote above for anyone who wants to see each snippet in it's original context!

 

you overdid it a little bit in your doodle considering how the GSR's face was directly underneath the water level. 

Doh, I have no idea how I could've missed that, I guess I was too busy showing how positioning could work to allow for the video clips we have to be considered canon while keeping the projected size of the planets considerably smaller than is currently being suggested/assumed. I've put some more doodles further down to deal with this mistake and also address your next comment.

 

the Ignika containing Mata Nui was shot into outer space and subsequently landed on Bara Magna

That's true but as mentioned earlier, a planet the size of Bara Magna would (presumably) have incredibly powerful gravity whereas something like the Aqu Magna shard would have considerably less (especially with much of it's mass being liquid. We could also assume that the Ignika was launched over the edge of the shard which would almost certainly result in it being caught by the gravitational pull of Bara Magna. Even if it was launched directly upwards (and thus away from both planets and their gravitational fields) it could conceivably obtain an elliptical orbit of the Bara Magna planetary trio and eventually achieve re-entry. All the same I messed around with another doodle that points the GSR right down at Bara Magna but IMO it just makes no sense. If Bara Magna was 'above' the GSR then it was also above the island of Mata Nui and a planetary body that large would literally eclipse 90% of the sky. The red star wouldn't be visible either unless it was between the two bodies which seems equally unlikely. This pic also removes some of the benefits of the first one (like allowing camera angles from the clips to be canon) but it does make for a much smaller shard which works in favour of a smaller robot:planet ratio...

 

Here it is, and I have to say I don't stand by this at all but it works for a few reasons. Mostly though it raises more questions soooo. Consider this as nonsense

 

EDIT : The GSR is actually NOT looking directly at the planet in this pic, more like he's perpendicular to it which could technically work I guess. But I still don't like it as it messes up the dimensions for the rising videos.

 

canon media portray the GSR at 3300 km, which is about 10 million feet, since this was the measurement Christian Faber (who was essentially in charge of the visuals of those same canon media) wrote down on the sketch he released and it checks out with calculations based on the known size of the Island of Mata Nui and depictions of the GSR in said canon media. 

I think that initial sketch is widely considered as concept art though isn't it? And afaik concept art is not included in discussions regarding canon. Otherwise I'd love to see a 10 million foot robot but I'm not sure it will fly. Would be interested in other people's opinions on the matter though! Also this comment raises the question of 'canon media' again by saying Christian Faber was in charge of such things. However, in just a few sentences time you'll go on to claim that NONE of this media is actually canon at all, so you seem to be contradicting your own statement here unless I'm missing the point. I stick to my original question however about which canon figure came first and I'd be very interested in hearing some more answers to that...

 

I'm very much opposed to the idea of acting like a fan number is more important than the number Greg gave us

This is contradictory as you just said that CF's 3,300km number WAS canon so we could use that as a 'fan made number' which makes no sense. If it's already canon then it trumps any 'fan made number' and also trumps Greg's later number as it came prior to the 40 million feet figure. HOWEVER, I believe Greg was stating that only contradictory statements made by HIMSELF would be subject to such a rule so he could argue that any figures produced by Faber (or other team members) are irrelevant even if they were mentioned prior to his own first mention of it. 

 

you assume the visual media show us a 100% accurate picture of what happened, while in reality those media are simply depictions of what happened

Again this is a contradiction as you just said that Christian Faber's artwork WAS canon and that he was 'in charge of canon media'. If that's the case and he was involved at all in the movies (I assume he was at least in a consultant role) then the media should be considered canon. It also sounds a lot like the 'Greg didn't do it so it didn't happen' card. We MUST come to a decision regarding visual media and how it fits into overall canon. Greg was a writer, not an artist. While I can understand people saying, the story is unchangeable while visuals are not set in stone there must be a limit. What if one day Greg showed us a picture of what the island of Mata Nui 'really' looked like and it was nothing like the one Christian Faber spent years replicating in numerous media... Is Greg's version of the island more correct because he was in charge of the story and the visual media is interchangeable based on interpretations of his writing? I'd suggest probably not but that has to be taken on board for all decisions not just the one. 

 

To summarise :

IS Christian Faber's 3,300km image concept art or is it considered as an early canon figure?

Does 3,300km work as a robot size compared to the canon size of the Island Mata Nui?

Where do we get the canon size of the Island anyway and is it a Greg number?

Do Greg canonisations disregard earlier information from other team members like CF? (hypothetically)

Are the 'Robot Rising' clips considered canon? How many are there? Are they contradictory of each other?

 

I feel like we should take media sources with a pinch of salt but immediately discounting them from canon for silly reasons (or no reasons at all) is going to do us no good in the long run. Bonesii suggested it's sometimes easier to change one thing to fit everything else rather than changing everything to fit one thing and I think that's a good analagy for story canon vs. media canon. We don't want to change the size of the robot because of the rising videos, We also don't want to change the size of the planets due to the rising videos. We don't want to change the size of the Matoran Universe due to the 40 million foot number either. So in the end we have to decide what makes sense and that's going to take a bit of work when there are so many contradictory and questionable sources in the mix. I would suggest that we look at ALL media representations of the GSR, the three planets and the island of Mata Nui (particularly when more than one is displayed together) and use all of this information to determine what can be considered canon and what cannot. For starters we immediately discount all fan art as it's clearly unofficial, then we find original Faber art (concept and final but as separate entities) and then we find any other 'official' non-Faber artwork. The video of the rising is a good place to start here as people are mentioning more than one iteration of this footage. I'm sure I've seen both but links would be handy and any official images of the rising might help too. A still image of the 'eye' lighting up prior to the rising might be a good source for canon information too if anyone has that somewhere!

 

Also another version of my doodle (getting a little more detailed now!) I stayed with the basic premise of the Aqua Magna Shard while making the upper ocean shallower and removing some of the water from the 'tail' as well to reduce overall mass. The following wall of text is only of interest if you want to see how the shard leaving resulted in a dry Bara Magna.

With regards to the deeper ocean, I think it's worth noting that the loss of Aqua Magna after the shattering left the planet with essentially zero liquid water. That would suggest this small part of the planet's crust was the location of nearly all of Spherus Magna's water prior to the shattering. Therefore we should think of the shard as being an impossible deep ocean bed, the very bottom of a bowl or basin if you will. This would explain why the shattering launched a piece of crust with only water at it's surface too as it would've been the weakest part of the planet's mantle. When the shard is expelled from the planet, it carries an unimaginable amount of water with it (like the cream on a thrown custard pie!) and the remaining water on the surface of Spherus Magna immediately begins to recede into the space occupied by the massive ocean. This remaining liquid needs to not only refill the ocean but also take the place of the shard itself. I would suggest that my doodles show an almost 50/50 divide of rock and water. Therefore, even if the Aqua Magna Shard removed only 30% of the planet's water there would not be enough left on the planet to refill the ocean. That's not even taking into account the many other watery locations o nthe planet. ALL the rivers and shallower areas of water would dry up almost immediately and even significantly deeper ones would be emptied quickly. Mathematically speaking, if the Shard removes 50% of the planet's water, and the mass of the rock it removes is equal to the other 50% of the planet's water, Bara Magna would be left with a water table lower that what was previously the lowest point of the planets seabed.

 

 

The final pic for today is one I'm rather pleased with! It not only puts the head where it needs to be but also places some other major areas with at least a reasonable amount of canon accuracy. I'm sure I've made many mistakes (particularly regarding Mahri Nui and anything comic related which I'm not overly familiar with right now) so please DO feel free to point out anything that is wrong or doesn't fit the story and such... I did try to follow BS01 as much as I could though and for Metru Nui, Mata Nui and Voya Nui I took whatever size figures I could find from various online sources but I certainly didn't count each pixel so consider it a rough estimation! 

 

I placed the Pit in the stomach (like the pit of my stomach) but I don't know if there is an accepted canon location for it. BS01 states that 'Voya Nui continued to float south and was anchored directly above the pit'. South must mean towards the legs as that's where south is on Aqua Magna, we have no other external navigation that I know of. This means the Pit MUST be south of the Southern continent but I don't imagine the Pit fitting anywhere lower than the hips. Also the Pit is relatively near to Mahri Nui and all the goings on of the BArraki happen around here so it just seems to make sense to me.

 

All the images I can see of Mahri Nui suggest it's built on natural rock so I'm not sure if putting it ON the GSR is right or wrong. Of course they built the settlement on newly formed land while it was part of Voya Nui so it could be built on stone which is then itself on the GSR. I also considered the GSR maybe camoflaged below water as well, since the video shows lumps of rock falling away from other parts of his body in the rising, not just his face. And finally, Mahri Nui was an anchor, so it must have landed somewhere solid. It could be BESIDE the GSR which would be absolutely fine and change little to nothing in this current doodle so I can live with that!

 

I positioned the GSR as having crash landed feet-first in this pic which is why his legs are more deeply embedded in the rock (and have torn up much terrain below them on impact) He's also been lucky enough to land on/near a raised terrain feature which elevates his back and places his face above water (which is vital) I see no other way for this to be possible as none of the rest of the robot, including his particularly thick chest, are avove the water. Even in this image, his chest is barely covered so I don't see another option perosnally.

 

Finally regarding flooding, my personal pet hate of the GSR story! Voya Nui shot out of the GSR's chest leaving a hole through the outer layer of the robot, into the dome containing the southern continent, through the southern continent and into Karda Nui. Provided Karda Nui is expansive enough (as has been thoroughly discussed) then it will never truly flood. It's also mentioned however that the Pit is entirely flooded due to the top of the dome shattering during the cataclysm. I would suggest that, while the GSR has strong enough gravity generators to maintain the illusion of flatness inside it's domes (including the oceans) the gravity of the shard is still strong enough to draw it's oceans downwards through the GSR itself. While my final image shows the pit as ABOVE Karda Nui if he were lying flat, his current angle places it BELOW Karda Nui in relation to the shard itself. This would explain why the Pit is completely flooded, while Karda Nui is only partially so. The water ends up in the Pit, even though it's technically above Karda Nui! It's also clearly possible for the Barraki to enter and leave the GSR near Mahri Nui however which suggests at least 2 holes are present in the GSRs outer body. Anyone who knows (earth)physics will tell you that an object with two holes in under water is very different to an objetc with just one. ESPECIALLY if one hole is above the other. Objects punctured twice will simply behave like a tube and (provided there is no solid blockage [which their probably is because the pit was a prison but I only just realised that so going to finish writing anyway!]) the Pit hole would take in water while forcing air out of the Voya Nui hole, right up until the water level reached said hole. Metru Nui and the Northern continents would be the sole survivors in such a situation! But anyway, since The Pit IS a prison and everyone always teleports about down there I guess it's possible there IS a solid blockage separating it from other domes. Though if the top of the Pit's dome cracked, why not other parts too? I still like this as a theory for the flooding. Perhaps the hole made by Voya Nui was sealed after the cataclysm (autorepair or such) but the Barakki chose to keep the other open so they could conquer the sea. That would eplain why the whole of the Pit flooded (up to that hole) while only some of Karda Nui did before the hole was patched. The waterfall would then be much more believable and more a side-effect of the patch than anything else!

 

Regardless, here is said pic. Again, opinions, objections, whatever

[Thormen]

From BS01:

Teridax's death differs in several sources; both Journey's End and the Mata Nui Saga describe it as the entire Bota Magna planet which crashes into his head, while the canon death is from a moon fragment, described in the later sources Sahmad's Tale and Glatorian Comic 7: Rebirth.

(Emphasis mine)

 

Sorry N.S.M.8, I see I forgot to respond to this: I don't know if there have been any developments on this in the past months, but apparently Greg was asked about this difference between the sources and he refused to pick one as being more canon than the others. I don't have a quote for that though, I heard it from Bones a few months ago so I can't verify at the moment if I'm saying this correctly, but that was the current state of affairs as far as I know.

 

Hi Munty, I agree with most of what you wrote down there. Some points:

 

If Bara Magna was 'above' the GSR then it was also above the island of Mata Nui and a planetary body that large would literally eclipse 90% of the sky.

Actually it wouldn't have to eclipse 90% of the sky if the distance between Aqua Magna and Bara Magna was great enough. The sun is also significantly larger than the earth but only appears as a small disk in our sky. Granted, whenever we see a picture of BM and AM the distance between the two is much less than what I'm suggesting here, but the same holds true for the sun and the earth: whenever you see a picture of the two, the distance shown between them is actually far smaller than the distance in reality (because unless you draw a massive picture, the sun would be tiny and the earth wouldn't be visible anymore). However, what I am going to admit here is that BM should at least be a sizeable object in the sky of AM, which we never saw in-story. What you said about the Ignika being launched over the edge also makes sense, so I agree it's likely the Great Spirit Robot was lying on the far side of AM after all.

 

The red star wouldn't be visible either unless it was between the two bodies which seems equally unlikely.

I don't see why the Red Star couldn't be between BM and AM... It's a high tech space station, it should be able to position itself in orbit, shouldn't it? Or are you saying that there shouldn't be any orbit between BM and AM? I don't see why there shouldn't be, although I might be missing something here since I'm not exactly an astrophysicist.

 

IS Christian Faber's 3,300km image concept art or is it considered as an early canon figure?

Christian Faber's sketch is indeed concept art and the measurements he wrote down are not canon. The only canon number we have for the size of the GSR is the number Greg gave us.

 

However, anyone who measures the relative sizes of the GSR and the Island of Mata Nui in the Mata Nui Rising Video will come to the conclusion that the GSR is most definitely not depicted as being 40 million feet / 12 000 km tall. While 3300 km is not a canon number and was only written down as concept art, it does appear to check out with these video depictions, which would make sense since the makers of those videos likely based themselves on that sketch. This however does not make the number canon, it merely means that was the number the animators used (yes, they did use it to make canon media, I'll get to that below).

 

Does 3,300km work as a robot size compared to the canon size of the Island Mata Nui?

The answer to that is tied to my previous answer: 3300 km is more or less what was used in the videos, so yes, it works.

 

Where do we get the canon size of the Island anyway and is it a Greg number?

As far as I know the canon size of the IMN is based on the measurement in kio (i.e. relative to a Toa's height) and information from Greg about the height of Toa in real world units. The~1st~Shadow however mentioned something about a magazine extra mentioning the size of the IMN, but I don't know which magazine extra exactly he was referring to so I can't say much about how canon that is.

 

Do Greg canonisations disregard earlier information from other team members like CF? (hypothetically)

Well they don't contradict canon information that was released earlier, if that's what you're asking. Whether they 'disregard' the size measurements for the IMN and the videos that were released earlier, is a little subjective: you can still fit the IMN on the GSR's face if you want to, but it's going to look markedly different from what we see in the videos. The concept artwork by CF was earlier, but was never publicized as canon artwork.

 

However, the whole issue being discussed here is that Greg's number makes things very awkward, e.g. the size relationship between the IMN and the GSR or the size of AM and consequently the size of Spherus Magna.

 

Are the 'Robot Rising' clips considered canon? How many are there? Are they contradictory of each other?

Here I'll get to the point about the canon media: yes, the clips are 'canon', but not 100% visually accurate canon. To my knowledge none of the BIONICLE media are 100% visually accurate canon, even if they are normally 'canon'. What that means is: the facts of the story told in these 'canon' media are definitely canon, but not every single detail you can see (or hear actually) in these media is canon. For example, both Web of Shadows and the official comics of 2005 are 'canon'. However, the comics show the Rahaga in set form, which means their helicopter-spinner on their backs looks like a normal Rhotuka spinner, essentially a propellor with a wheel around it. Web of Shadows however depicts the Rahaga somewhat differently: they also have propellors on their backs, but without wheels around them. Both of these media are 'canon', how is that possible? The answer is that we are talking about visual details here, and those visual details are not necessarily canon. That's how the movies are able to show BIONICLE characters in different forms than their set forms even though other media show them in these forms: 'canon' does not apply to every single detail you see on your screen or hear, it mainly refers to the events/powers/attributes etc.

 

The same applies to the videos showing the GSR rising. I believe the only instances we actually see the GSR rising through the IMN are the Mata Nui Rising video that appeared on BIONICLEstory.com in 2008, and the opening scene of The Legend Reborn. Comic #15 Mata Nui Rising covers the same event but doesn't actually show the GSR's face bursting through the IMN, and I don't know of any other visual media covering this event.

 

The opening scene of TLR actually doesn't show the size of the GSR in relation to the IMN very clearly, you mainly see the ground shaking and cracking and the GSR emerging from above the water. The clearest image is the moment the GSR's eyes light up underneath the IMN, which seems to check out with CF's number but is vague enough so that I can see people arguing that it checks out with Greg's number as well. This opening scene is however a perfect example of what I meant about the visual details not being canon: it first shows Mata Nui waking up in the GSR, and only a few moments afterwards the Makuta takes over. Then it launches the Ignika with Mata Nui's spirit into outer space and we see a shot of it flying away from AM where AM is clearly astronomically larger than the GSR, since the GSR is too small to be seen. On top of that, AM appears to have large landmasses on it. The Ignika subsequently appears to travel far away from AM, even leaving the galaxy, before it lands on BM.

 

By far the clearest image we have comes from the Mata Nui Rising video. Here you actually see the face of the GSR bursting through the IMN, and this clearly does not check out with Greg's number, instead it seems to show the GSR at the size CF gave. I'll post some images if I can get my BrickShelf account working again.

 

I positioned the GSR as having crash landed feet-first in this pic which is why his legs are more deeply embedded in the rock (and have torn up much terrain below them on impact)

Also apparently 'northern' regions of the Matoran Universe were hit hardest by the Great Cataclysm (a hint at the MU being inside the GSR), which makes sense if the GSR eventually fell over from a standing position after having landed on its feet first.

 

He's also been lucky enough to land on/near a raised terrain feature which elevates his back and places his face above water (which is vital) I see no other way for this to be possible as none of the rest of the robot, including his particularly thick chest, are avove the water. Even in this image, his chest is barely covered so I don't see another option perosnally.

I like the elevation under its head, but I'm not so sure it should be under its back as well. Keep in mind water from AM was leaking through the two holes Voya Nui made into Karda Nui, which only seems to be possible if the GSR lies horizontally on its back. The Pit doesn't have to be lower than Karda Nui if the hole in the dome of the Pit were a lot larger than the holes Voya Nui made, or if there were multiple holes as you explained. I always imagined the Pit as being in the outer hull of the GSR, so that could be a reason why its dome was damaged more seriously than that of Karda Nui.

 

Also a little nitpick here: Mahri Nui should be on top of the Pit, since it crushed Ehlek's fortress there. This also positions it underneath Voya Nui, which make sense (although I wouldn't go so far as to say it's necessary, since it was a chunk of a floating island after all so I can imagine it drifting to the side while sinking).

 

But all in all that seems to be a very accurate picture!

 

Edit: Fixed BBC code error

 

Edit2: OK, here are the pictures I promised to upload. The first picture shows the two relevant stills from the Mata Nui Rising video. I cropped them and adjusted the scale of the second one slightly since the camera is zooming out in this scene (what I specifically did was make sure the clouds are all in the same place, since I assume the animators didn't unnaturally make the clouds rise up or fall down during this scene. They did however unnaturally mess with the direction of the light for dramatic effect, so one can never know of course...).

 

 

What I then did was draw a rough outline of both the Island of Mata Nui and the head of the Great Spirit Robot. You can see the results below:

 

 

I then put these outlines on top of one another to show how the IMN is located on the GSR's face according to this video:

 

 

Next I took a picture of the GSR (the concept art from Christian Faber, since the final canon version of the GSR is basically a textured version of that concept art) and the canon picture of the IMN and scaled them to relative size (40 million feet/12 192 km for the height of the GSR and 303.91 miles / 489.09 km for the length of the IMN). I put these pictures on top of each other as well:

 

 

As you can see the scale is quite different from what we see in the Mata Nui Rising video. I did the same thing again, with 3300 km as the GSR's height instead of 40 million feet / 12 192 km (I also made the IMN transparent so you can compare what is where on his face):

 

 

This obviously comes much closer to what we see in the MNR video. Note that, if you rotate the IMN a little in this picture, it is possible to place the two eyes underneath Ko-Wahi and Naho Bay, just as they are supposed to be in-story.

 

The following is the clearest picture I could get from the opening scene of The Legend Reborn.

 

 

As you can see it is much vaguer, and it seems to suggest something in between the two sizes. However I wouldn't worry too much about making this opening scene fit with canon, since there are a lot more problems you'd have to fix in that case (see above).

 

So based on these images (i.e. based mostly on the MNR video) I think CF's 3300 km would be a great idea for a fan accepted number if we were to establish such a thing. I'm however not sure what the significance of such a number would be compared to the canon number we have (and I'm opposed to asking Greg to retcon the canon number).

Edited April 28, 2015 by Thormen

[Munty]

I just wrote an absolutely gigantic post in response to this with maths and all sorts of intelligent observations and I lost the thing. I cannot express how I feel about that because of the poxy word filter but yeah, I'm not going to write it all up again...

 

Jist of it;

I did those same measurements and came up with a result of about 3,763km, a little larger than CF.

I did the same with the glowing eyes from TLR and came up with a figure around 6,400km almost exactly half way between the CF and GF numbers.

 

Essentially, Greg's 40 million number is not supported anywhere or by anything except the fact that Greg said it which makes it gospel. Please note I wrote several paragraphs on all this which I lost and won't write again so I'm aware that this seems like a rash and unsupported 'I dislike Greg' post but that's not it at all. I'd simply suggest that in the spirit of creating a sustainable and believable (by science fiction standards of course) universe we need to take on board ALL sources of information and NOT just that of GF. He wrote the story but that doesn't make his every word gospel. In the same way a car designer may only see 90% of his work represented in a final product, not every single word ever uttered by Greg was considered relevant to the Bionicle franchise by the rest of the team and I would suggest that an executive decision was made to go with CF's more reasonable, believable 3,300km size for the robot. It's clearly shown in the Mata Nui Rising video that this is the figure they worked off as it is easily comparable to a canon (Greg given) figure for the size of the Island of Mata Nui. Unless we change the size of the island (to be 4 times larger) or ignore the media depiction entirely then GF's 40 million foot figure cannot work.

 

Also, another point I didn't get around to covering last time I tried to post this. In the final battle when Tahu is fighting Rahkshi and such, Mata Nui is aware of their every action, despite being millions of feet up in the air. I know he's a huge powerful robot (even in prototype form and hence shorter/crappier) but the observations he makes about Tahu's fight is the equivalent of us watching ants from the top of a five story building. At least

 

Anyways, I'm going to start looking a lot more into the composition of the universe shortly as I'm finding this speculation to be quite interesting! For now though I would agree with Thormen that CF's 3,300km figure is much more reasonable and we need to start seriously discussing the possibility of fanonising this figure. I too don't care about asking Greg to retcon the number but frankly that's because I don't believe in his all powerful control over all things Bionicle. He gave us a number that doesn't make sense and was ignored by everything else the franchise ever did. I think if the majority of the fanbase here (everywhere ideally but that's not possible) agrees that changing the figure from 40 million feet to 10 million (or whatever it works out to) is a good idea then we should just do it. Of course people will still say 'it's not canon because Greg didn't say so' but it allows us to create what is essentially a community head canon. I'd like to see it accepted as true canon seeing as it's supported by CF and the MNR clip but I don't expect that to happen so just having it accepted as a possible alternative within the community would be a good start. 

 

Let the hate commence

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Also, another point I didn't get around to covering last time I tried to post this. In the final battle when Tahu is fighting Rahkshi and such, Mata Nui is aware of their every action, despite being millions of feet up in the air. I know he's a huge powerful robot (even in prototype form and hence shorter/crappier) but the observations he makes about Tahu's fight is the equivalent of us watching ants from the top of a five story building. At least

 

That same robot was also able to hear (and subsequently communicate with) the Glatorian and Agori. It was even stated directly in the story that the robot had special sensors for that kind of thing.   Could he not have some sort of sensor detecting heat signatures below (of which Tahu would likely have been the hottest) ? Wouldn't need to directly observe it if that were the case.

[toa kopaka4372]

I feel the irresistible need to quote myself from another topic:

 

 

*likes how everyone assumes that Greg is solely responsible for the 40-mil number and that it was not perhaps chosen by the story team which the vast majority of the BIONICLE fanbase seems to forget existed*

 

(If I'm wrong and there is official confirmation that Greg was the one who chose the number, like he confirmed that he was the one who chose Matoro to be the Toa to die, please correct me).

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

Also, another point I didn't get around to covering last time I tried to post this. In the final battle when Tahu is fighting Rahkshi and such, Mata Nui is aware of their every action, despite being millions of feet up in the air. I know he's a huge powerful robot (even in prototype form and hence shorter/crappier) but the observations he makes about Tahu's fight is the equivalent of us watching ants from the top of a five story building. At least

 

That same robot was also able to hear (and subsequently communicate with) the Glatorian and Agori. It was even stated directly in the story that the robot had special sensors for that kind of thing.   Could he not have some sort of sensor detecting heat signatures below (of which Tahu would likely have been the hottest) ? Wouldn't need to directly observe it if that were the case.

 

 

okay, first: Heat sensors isn't gonna do much good when Tahu was fighting agains Heat-Vision Rahkshi, just thought i'd point that bit out. second: that's... kinda stretching things, and it's really just easier if he's smaller, for basically all details of the Bara-Magna battle. :0

[LegoSWfan]

We need the density of the robots building material, it may be lighter than it looks, accounting for how it could be 40 million feet and not be crushed under it own weight, and how big is a MU foot?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

We need the density of the robots building material, it may be lighter than it looks, accounting for how it could be 40 million feet and not be crushed under it own weight, and how big is a MU foot?

 

identical to a foot in out world, the number was in imperial feet. :0

[LegoSWfan]

Can you provide a source?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Can you provide a source?

 

A... source? well, Matoran don't use imperial units of measurement, and greg does, because it's easiest for humans to think in human measurements. I didn't think that kinda thing needed a source. :0

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

 

Also, another point I didn't get around to covering last time I tried to post this. In the final battle when Tahu is fighting Rahkshi and such, Mata Nui is aware of their every action, despite being millions of feet up in the air. I know he's a huge powerful robot (even in prototype form and hence shorter/crappier) but the observations he makes about Tahu's fight is the equivalent of us watching ants from the top of a five story building. At least

 

That same robot was also able to hear (and subsequently communicate with) the Glatorian and Agori. It was even stated directly in the story that the robot had special sensors for that kind of thing.   Could he not have some sort of sensor detecting heat signatures below (of which Tahu would likely have been the hottest) ? Wouldn't need to directly observe it if that were the case.

 

 

okay, first: Heat sensors isn't gonna do much good when Tahu was fighting agains Heat-Vision Rahkshi, just thought i'd point that bit out. second: that's... kinda stretching things, and it's really just easier if he's smaller, for basically all details of the Bara-Magna battle. :0

 

There were other Rahkshi, you know. Not just heat-vision ones as shown in the comics. Remember?

 

And I was giving an example of one kind of sensor the robot likely had access to. It would also be easier to hear Ackar if he was smaller, too. But, the Prototype could still do that, so we have to assume that he could see them somehow.

[LegoSWfan]

 

Can you provide a source?

 

A... source? well, Matoran don't use imperial units of measurement, and greg does, because it's easiest for humans to think in human measurements. I didn't think that kinda thing needed a source. :0

Well for all we know, the MU foot could be 18 in. Assuming they have inches, I'm not trying to be harsh, but without a MU to SI system, it will be hard for us to gauge the MNRs real size. Edited April 29, 2015 by Decepticonwarrior

[Gipsy Danger]

40 million seems to be a good size since Bionicle doesn't have to follow our way of life.

[LegoSWfan]

That's what I was getting at, the MU isn't the Milky Way (at least I don't think it is) so it will be hard for us to put into perspective the various aspects of how it works, for example, it was said that all Toa are roughly 7 feet tall, yet as any collector will know, the sets do not follow this logic.

[Munty]

I think the point is, Greg gave his measurement for the size of the island of Mata Nui in Kio, therefore making it an alien number that we couldn't relate to. But he also said that a kio was relative to the size of a toa and then gave us the specific size of a toa as about 7 'feet'. He used Kio instead of Kilo because it was an alien measurement. He used feet because it's an earth term. He was giving us an actual, undebatable measurement for the Toa which we were then able to apply to the size of the island. 

 

Source;

 

A bio was a Matoran unit of distance. One bio was equal to roughly 4.5 feet (1.37 meters) in Earth measurement. A Toa's height was estimated to be 1.6 bio (7.2 feet or 2.19 meters). There were 1,000 bio in a kio, and 1,000,000 bio in a mio.

A kio is a unit of length in the Bionicle universe. It is equal to one thousand bio. It is roughly equal to 0.85 miles or 1.37 kilometers. There are 1000 kio in a mio

A Mio is the largest unit of Matoran measurement in the Bionicle universe. It is equal to a million bio, a thousand kio, 850 miles, 1370 kilometers or 4,500,000 imperial feet.

 

 

By extension we can apply the same number to the size of the GSR which is where we get the 3,300km height from (and Christian Faber) Perhaps the 40 million foot number could be explained as another alien measurement so all the figures can co-exist. If that's the case though, the unit of distance he's referring to is equal to just 0.0825mm which is pretty ridiculous considering the relative size of other items in the Bionicle universe. Not sure why they would need such a tiny measurement! Still, it's a thought. 

 

Also the fact that the Toa in their set forms are of inconsistent scaling has been discussed before and I think it's widely accepted that they're simply not designed to be to scale. The Mata, Nuva and Mist/phan Toa are all roughly the same size, the sets are not due to increased detail and part count. The sets are, I believe, totally irrelevant to this discussion

 

As for having heat vision and other sensors to detect what's happening at the robot's feet, it's certainly plausible. The robot was designed to monitor alien worlds after all so it would actually make a lot of sense for it to be teeming with equipment suited for that job. The final battle still raises numerous problems for a 40m foot tall robot though so I certainly don't think this is an argument in favour of the original figure either way!

Edited April 29, 2015 by Munty

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

That's what I was getting at, the MU isn't the Milky Way (at least I don't think it is) so it will be hard for us to put into perspective the various aspects of how it works, for example, it was said that all Toa are roughly 7 feet tall, yet as any collector will know, the sets do not follow this logic.

 

You must remember that the sets have never been the final appearance of a character. It is mostly to give us a vague idea. This allows custom appearances based on the sets to be imagined. So you can imagine that, in-canon, every Toa is just about the same height and carry just about the same details that they have in their set-forms.

 

[LegoSWfan]

so its like transformers G1 then, some characters only vaguely look like they did on the show? or like the Bionicle movies?

[Munty]

Yup, sounds like a good analogy DW