Poll: Size the Mata Nui robot

fishers64 · May 8, 2015

The Greg quote I couldn't seem to find said that it was a chain reaction. So it was a small explosion...that led to a bigger explosion...that led to more smaller explosions and bigger explosions that added up to trigger one BIG BOOM.

Yeah.

Jobber · May 8, 2015

Yep. And all the 'planetesimals' that were separated from the main body eventually formed into 'spheres'. But what really confuses me is the short amount of time the pieces formed into said spheres.

It should've take millions of years assuming the planet pieces were somewhat molten when they were separated.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Marvel Nui

Thormen · May 8, 2015

The Greg quote I couldn't seem to find said that it was a chain reaction. So it was a small explosion...that led to a bigger explosion...that led to more smaller explosions and bigger explosions that added up to trigger one BIG BOOM.

Yeah.

OK, but was it implying that the "one big boom" was responsible for both Aqua Magna and Bota Magna breaking off? 'Cause I'm under the impression Munty's theory about multiple 'explosions' is opposed to that.

Yep. And all the 'planetesimals' that were separated from the main body eventually formed into 'spheres'. But what really confuses me is the short amount of time the pieces formed into said spheres.

It should've take millions of years assuming the planet pieces were somewhat molten when they were separated.

I don't think we should assume the planet pieces were somewhat molten when they separated, that would've killed off all life there. It sounds like you're assuming the Shattering launched millions of little planetesimals into space that went into orbit and eventually accumulated to form Aqua Magna and Bota Magna (similar to how our moon formed), but that's not the case. Both Aqua Magna and Bota Magna were actual locations on Spherus Magna that broke off in entirety. I think it's reasonable to assume there were other planetesimals that broke off as well, but I don't see how they could've been included in the Reformation.

Sergei Rahkmaninoff · May 8, 2015

So much to read through... :dead: On the discussion of the relative sizes of Aqua, Bara, Bota Magna, if that's still being talked about, I'd like to point out one canon depiction of the three together that I don't think (correct me if I just missed it and am rehashing stale old arguments) anyone has considered: the Three Virtues Symbol.

The Three Virtues symbol was intended by the Great Beings not only as a symbol for the Three Virtues, but also to "serve as a map of Spherus Magna fragments after the Shattering" (BS01 Three Virtues Page). Theoretically, then, it depicts the fragments in the correct proportions to each other, as the Great Beings would be likely to give Mata Nui as accurate a map as possible of the planets he was created to reform. As you probably see, I copied and recolored one of the smaller spheres onto the larger one, and it fits in about three times. If we take this symbol as an accurate representation of the planets, then it shows the diameter of Aqua and Bota Magna to have been roughly one-third that of Bara Magna's. Do what math with that you will.

Of course, I did say if. Obviously as a symbol it might not be entirely accurate, or the map meaning might have been assigned retroactively to it later in the story's run (anyone know when this was developed?) and thus not as canon as other representations, or there might be any other number of inconsistencies. I'm just throwing this out there as another depiction to consider.

The 1st Shadow · May 8, 2015

Of course, I did say if. Obviously as a symbol it might not be entirely accurate, or the map meaning might have been assigned retroactively to it later in the story's run (anyone know when this was developed?) and thus not as canon as other representations, or there might be any other number of inconsistencies. I'm just throwing this out there as another depiction to consider.

It was a symbol first, and was later adapted into a map during 2009.

Still, though, it might be close enough to give us some estimates.

fishers64 · May 8, 2015

The Greg quote I couldn't seem to find said that it was a chain reaction. So it was a small explosion...that led to a bigger explosion...that led to more smaller explosions and bigger explosions that added up to trigger one BIG BOOM.

Yeah.
OK, but was it implying that the "one big boom" was responsible for both Aqua Magna and Bota Magna breaking off? 'Cause I'm under the impression Munty's theory about multiple 'explosions' is opposed to that.

I still can't find the blasted quote. Anyway, all it said was that the Shattering was a chain reaction. Nothing about micro-explosions or the big boom doing anything.

But the big boom had to exist in order to push Bota and Aqua Magna away - and anyway, that's implied in the words "chain reaction".

**bonesiii** · May 9, 2015

Munty, I've been agreeing with mostly everything in many of your latest posts, but the one just after my latest doesn't hit that mark, I'm afraid. I'm not sure how to take a lot of it though because it's unclear where you're coming from or what you're driving at. In parts it looks like you're just trying to analyze one very specific scenario, but you used so many wordings that seemed like absolutes that I couldn't be sure that was actually what you meant.

The main thing I'm reacting to is that you seemed to several times assume things about what "everybody" is assuming that I have not seen, and in many cases I don't know how you could know without being telepathic.

To begin with, as I pointed out to T1S, there is NO wiggle room in the explosion. It was exactly however powerful it needed to be to put the moons into orbit, not blasting away and not too weak to fall back. But again, since we don't know the actual sizes involved, exact numbers for that speed and related factors can't be derived. (Not for certain.) I don't see what the point is of statements like "it wasn't gigantic". That's a subjective word, and I'd think anything capable of blasting pieces of a planet into space definitely deserves that label. And no matter how you describe it, the balance remains indisputable (and for now it also remains indisputable that we don't know where the balance is in real terms).

But several parts of your post also seemed aimed at saying it was multiple explosions.

If that was canon, it would then be true. But so far as we know it isn't. However, obviously any explosion could be thought of as having components, as not every atom reacts at once, right? (All explosions of anything besides just two atoms, basically, are chain reactions.) The bottom line is it all averages out to a single central "total" force.

Also, trying to make it noticeably different explosions seems counterproductive as now you're just putting chaos back into it that the single-explosion polar theory solved, making a deadly change to Bara's orbit likely. Two equal things in opposite directions keeps the total resulting mini-system in equilibrium. If one goes out first with noticeable time between, even if the other is at the polar opposite end, multiple explosions (unless there's two that are equal and opposite!) could make the whole thing go any number of different ways, and it becomes like hoping for a coin toss to land on the edge.

So, why try to push things in that direction, when we already have a much simpler interpretation that works?

I'm also not sure why we're still talking about the old "mining pressure" theory when we already know it was an explosion due to tapping into the power. (And siphoning it out would reduce pressure, not increase it.) Mining pressure might have an effect, but it's not clear how that is relevant to your analysis. Could you clarify?

Also, the prototype robot was made prior to EP discovery, not as a result.

And whether the EP was liquid or solid (and we only know of liquid as far as I know), the core definitely exploded. And having it be solid sounds more likely to blast the whole planet to bits, not burst out two corks. Liquids are good for more "gentle" explosions, so again I say stick with the straightforward Ockham's Razor explanation.

Finally, nobody that I know of (as far as I recall them saying) thinks that only three things came out; the dust cloud seen in the movie in orbit would also undoubtedly result from the many smaller bits around the edges.

And I don't know if we know whether the AM moon came from it too or was SM's moon originally. There might also be other bodies. Many smaller ones might get enough speed to be blasted away and not fall into orbit. And this is true regardless of whether it's a single event in time in the total or multiple noticeable events!

The Three Virtues symbol was intended by the Great Beings not only as a symbol for the Three Virtues, but also to "serve as a map of Spherus Magna fragments after the Shattering" (BS01 Three Virtues Page). Theoretically, then, it depicts the fragments in the correct proportions to each other

Interesting idea. Who knows, though. I doubt that's what the story team intended. Might be fun to "try on for size" the math that would result if you put Earth's exact size as Aqua Magna and calc SM from there, just to see where that goes.

Thormen · May 9, 2015

Of course, I did say if. Obviously as a symbol it might not be entirely accurate, or the map meaning might have been assigned retroactively to it later in the story's run (anyone know when this was developed?) and thus not as canon as other representations, or there might be any other number of inconsistencies. I'm just throwing this out there as another depiction to consider.
It was a symbol first, and was later adapted into a map during 2009.

Still, though, it might be close enough to give us some estimates.

It was the original BIONICLE logo back in 2001 and then later it got retroactively turned into a map, as T1S said (and actually it got retroactively turned in a symbol for the Three Virtues in between). But that's how it went in real life, that doesn't mean it has to be that way in-story. Like Sergei said, this is supposed to be a map, so it might even be accurate even if it was only decided retroactively that it was a map.

A couple of things are off though: most importantly, Aqua Magna and Bota Magna appear to be the same size while we have confirmation that Bota Magna is in fact bigger. Then there's the weird shape of the bodies: they are all diagonally pointing eggs instead of spheres. Munty showed us that AM could be egg-shaped but only if it's pointing towards Bara Magna, and Bara Magna should be round (with holes in it). Also the bodies are much too close to each other, not even if they were composed of gas would they be able to stay that close to each other. So I'd go with the map being a symbolic reminder for Mata Nui rather than an actual accurate map.

I still can't find the blasted quote. Anyway, all it said was that the Shattering was a chain reaction. Nothing about micro-explosions or the big boom doing anything.

But the big boom had to exist in order to push Bota and Aqua Magna away - and anyway, that's implied in the words "chain reaction".

I had a look through your 2008 archive and the closest I could find was this:

May 27 2009, 05:08 PM

1. Were the Great Beings the first ones to realize that Spherus Magna was shattering slowly?
1) It didn’t shatter slowly, it shattered quickly, and yes, they were the first ones to realize it might happen

July 14 2009, 11:32 AM

1) The original discovery of the EP was in the ice EL’s area, so they were defending it for much of the war.
2) The final battle of the war saw the fire armies seize control of the EP spring
1. So the Ice Tribe had control of it until the Fire Tribe seized control during the final battle of the war?

1) The ice tribe lost control of it a few times during the war, but never for very long. And the fire tribe knew when they seized it they wouldn’t be able to hold it for very long, so they rushed to tap its power despite warnings of what would happen.

1. Did they ever tap its power? Were there mostly deaths or transformations?

1) Mostly deaths, and some transformations of animal life. The only really concerted effort to tap its power -- to basically drain and collect the EP -- was done by the fire tribe and precipitated the Shattering.

Sep 17 2009, 01:47 PM

1. Did the inhabitants of Spherus Magna have a hint that the Shattering would soon take place? Like increasing amounts of earthquakes, strange climate changes, reseeding waterlines, whatever.
1) Quakes, yes, but not much warning. It happened pretty abruptly

Oct 17 2009, 01:32 PM

* The Shattering was caused by the Element Lords attempts to use the EP Spring, which lead to the core of the planet exploding
Can you confirm that you did give out this information? It’d be a bit bad if it was made up by the original poster.

- Tilius

1) Yes, I did, it’s from the Utah events. I always try to give out exclusive info at events to reward people for coming.

- Tilius

Jul 15 2009, 02:39 PM

1) What is a rough estimate of the time elapsed between the final battle of the Core War and the Shattering?
1) Hours

So to sum that up: the planet was initially fine (despite a massive war raging on it) and the Ice Tribe was in control of the spring of Elemental Protodermis. The final battle resulted in the Fire Tribe taking control of the spring and they started draining and collecting the EP, even though some (the Great beings?) had warned them of the consequences that would have. First there were quakes, but it only was a matter of hours before the core of the planet actually exploded and the two new moons were sent into outer space.

So Munty's theory about the explosion/s not being in the core is false, and there is no mention of a chain reaction or of multiple explosions (doesn't mean there wasn't a chain reaction, the whole thing does kinda sound like one, but it's not made explicit). Note also that Greg only says the core exploded, he never said that it was EP that was exploding. I don't know of any explosive property of EP and, as Bones pointed out, draining it would have actually decreased pressure. What seems more likely to me is that there always was another explosive force in the core that was stabilized by the EP: when the Fire Tribe removed the stabilizing factor, the core exploded.

This again brings up the issue of why the exploding core didn't disintegrate the planet more fully and how it is possible that an explosion in the center of gravity knocks two shards into orbit. Maybe significant parts of the surviving chunks were so solid that the shockwave from the explosion in the core was directed in such a way that the two shards were launched with a force vector that didn't originate in the core, as in this picture:

The yellow ball is the core which would've exploded. The red matter is magma, or other liquid or soft matter and the brown matter is rock. When the core explodes, it will send pressure waves originating from within itself into the magma, but due to the irregular shape of the cavity within which the magma is kept, the waves are redirected and when they reach the weakest points in the crust (Aqua Magna, dark brown, and Bota Magna, green), the resulting force vectors (the two arrows) don't originate in the center of gravity and therefore the shards start moving diagonally and are able to obtain orbit.

I've also drawn AM a second time next to the planet with the GSR lying on it inside an impact crater for size comparison. The diameter of AM's surface is 3 GSR heights (same as in Munty's pictures) and the diameter of Spherus Magna is about 12 GSR heights (so 5 times as small as in Munty's pictures). The diameter of Bota Magna's surface is about 4 GSR heights (half what it is in Munty's pictures I believe). If we assume the canon number of 40 million feet / 12 000 km for the GSR height, that gives Spherus Magna a diameter of 480 million feet / 144 000 km, making the planet a little bigger than Jupiter. The volume is 12 ^ 3 = 1728 as large as the volume of earth and gravity on the surface should be 144 times as big as on the surface of earth assuming a similar density, but as I said before I think we can make the density lower.

BTW the distance between AM and Bara Magna is obviously not depicted correctly here (see the quotes below).

(continued in the next post since this is too long)

Edit: Fixed the quotes

Edited May 9, 2015 by Thormen

fishers64 · May 9, 2015

Thormen:

I remembered this post.

Energized Protodermis is also explosive, something Vakama took advantage of to render Sentrakh unconscious during the Battle for the Kanohi Vahi.

Shattering = Explosion.

The Fire Tribe, in an effort to claim the power of the Energized Protodermis, managed to break into the Ice Tribe's well, and began siphoning off the substance from its spring. A chain reaction began in the core of the planet and eventually it caused the planet to shatter into three pieces.
Clear as mud.

That wording comes from somewhere, I just don't know where. But given the Vakama fire-->explosion incident, I'm pretty sure that power source blaster theory is kanixed.

Thormen · May 9, 2015

Fishers, I'll try to find where that came from, but I'm wondering if it's even from a Greg quote... It might be from something published?

(continued from previous post)

I also found this:

Oct 21 2009, 09:41 PM

2) Are the nebulae that surround the Bara Magna system significant in the story, or are they just there to match the BIONICLE symbol?
2) Well, if I had to guess, I would say they were dust left over from the planet shattering

So yes, there were parts of Spherus Magna that were shot into space separately from both of the new moons.

Dec 21 2009, 11:31 AM

2. Was the shattering more of a diffusion or just the planet breaking into chunks? I beleive that a diffusion would be much more logical, and it would clear up much confusion. It doesn’t make any sense if it just broke apart, because then the 3 peices wouldn’t be round, and the water wouldn’t stay on Aqua Magna.
2) I have never pictured the three pieces as round, and I actually had the comic artist change some art so that they wouldn’t look round.

I seriously hope he's not referring to the potato moons It seems more likely he refers to that picture from All Our Sins Remembered that Munty posted on the previous page, which means we shouldn't just discard it as 'inaccurate'... In any case, this is confirmation that the shards are not round!

Apr 20 2009, 08:20 PM

Can one see Bara Magna from the Endless Ocean Planet?
You’d probably need a good telescope. You have to figure it can’t be that far away from EO, otherwise Mata Nui would never have reached there in time to make it into 2009 story.

Doesn’t it take months for him to get to Bara Magna, though? I thought during the time Gresh faces a Skrall in Comic 1, Mata Nui is shot from the MU, and few months later, he’s on Bara Magna. Or am I just wrong about this?

And we can see Mars with a telescope from Earth, but it would take at least nine months for a rocket to get there.

Lol, point taken.

Apr 25 2009, 05:45 PM

13. You recently compared the distance between Bara Magna and the Endless Ocean to the distance between Earth and Mars. Does this mean Bara Magna and the Endless Ocean are in roughly the same region of space?
13) I think that is reasonable to assume. As I told someone else today, you can see BM from the MN telescope, which you probably could not do were it not in the same solar system

So one thing we can conclude from that is the distance between Bara Magna and AM was so large that you would need a telescope to see it from AM and that it would take months to get there. What's problematic however is that this quote seems to contradict the quote I posted earlier about the Great Spirit Robot lying on the far side of AM (particularly since that was supposed to be an explanation for why one couldn't see Bara Magna from the Island of Mata Nui). These two new quotes I posted here actually precede that quote by almost a year so unless we can find a way to fix this, the quote I posted earlier must be discarded and the GSR can't have been on the far side of AM (constantly). One solution I can think of is if the telescope were somehow more 'high tech' and capable of seeing stuff even when it's on the other side of the celestial body it's on, but I must admit that that is stretching things.

Edit: quotes quotes quotes...

Edited May 9, 2015 by Thormen

fishers64 · May 9, 2015

The quoting error is caused by the amount of closing quote tags not matching the opening ones. You need to go into BBCode mode and record each pair's opening or closing.

Fishers, I'll try to find where that came from, but I'm wondering if it's even from a Greg quote... It might be from something published?

Dec 21 2009, 11:31 AM

2. Was the shattering more of a diffusion or just the planet breaking into chunks? I beleive that a diffusion would be much more logical, and it would clear up much confusion. It doesn’t make any sense if it just broke apart, because then the 3 peices wouldn’t be round, and the water wouldn’t stay on Aqua Magna.
2) I have never pictured the three pieces as round, and I actually had the comic artist change some art so that they wouldn’t look round.

I seriously hope he's not referring to the potato moons It seems more likely he refers to that picture from All Our Sins Remembered that Munty posted on the previous page, which means we shouldn't just discard it as 'inaccurate'... In any case, this is confirmation that the shards are not round!

This could be referring to the fact that they weren't round right after they shattered.

Thormen · May 9, 2015

The quoting error is caused by the amount of closing quote tags not matching the opening ones. You need to go into BBCode mode and record each pair's opening or closing.

That's what I think as well, but the site simple deletes half a dozen openening quotes and adds three closing tags at the end... BTW I always type in BBCode mode.

Edit: I found the problem! Apparently I can't copy-paste stuff directly from your archive, the second double quote symbol in the name tag of the opening quote gets messed up... :shrugs:

This could be referring to the fact that they weren't round right after they shattered.

You mean that he doesn't deny they could've become spherical after a while? That's true, so the non-spherical shape is only confirmed for the years directly following the Shattering. Though it would take more than 100 000 years for solid objects to become spheres like that.

Edit2: Regarding the quote you're looking for: I checked the sources that I could find online but didn't find anything. What I don't have access to though is the graphic novel Legends of Bara Magna and I have a feeling it could be inside All Our Sins Remembered.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Thormen

The 1st Shadow · May 9, 2015

I don't know of any explosive property of EP and,

You might wanna read Time Trap, then. EP is highly explosive (Someone here already mentioned Vakama superheating a vial of the stuff to blow Sentrakh out of the Great Temple.)

**bonesiii** · May 9, 2015

I don't know of any explosive property of EP

Whoa there. It exploded Shattering the planet... And if that isn't proof enough, the GBs tested it and learned that it was explosive, as illustrated here:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/f/f6/AOSR_Energized_Protodermis_Testing.png

Which makes sense for something called "energized."

This image, BTW, seems to show that it takes nothing more than contact with some sort of substance (or as I theorized for my retelling, literally tapping into its energy as a power source) to trigger the explosion. Vakama used heat, I would presume, though unsure off the top of my head. Regardless of exactly how it worked, we know it was explosive.

To the side of AM thing, I thought Greg confirmed it was tidally locked and the giant crashed on the other side. That's how I've portrayed it in my retelling. It sounds like that was an earlier quote from before they'd really established that AM and BotaM were actually moons orbiting BaraM, as art in the MNS clearly shows (so if that portrayal is canon and you were on the Bara side of Aqua, no way you'd need a telescope to see Bara!).

But Greg's grasp on whether they were planets or moons was obviously never very strong for some reason, as shown in the recent forgetcon debacle and ret-retcon.

I think the resolution to that probably applies here, and we should go with the answer that it was the other side. Thing is, I don't know the actual timing of that quote, nor do I trust my memory that it says what we've taken it to say for a while. :shrugs:

The Hip Historian Iaredios · May 10, 2015

I don't know of any explosive property of EP

Whoa there. It exploded Shattering the planet... And if that isn't proof enough, the GBs tested it and learned that it was explosive, as illustrated here:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/f/f6/AOSR_Energized_Protodermis_Testing.png

Which makes sense for something called "energized."

This image, BTW, seems to show that it takes nothing more than contact with some sort of substance (or as I theorized for my retelling, literally tapping into its energy as a power source) to trigger the explosion. Vakama used heat, I would presume, though unsure off the top of my head. Regardless of exactly how it worked, we know it was explosive.

To the side of AM thing, I thought Greg confirmed it was tidally locked and the giant crashed on the other side. That's how I've portrayed it in my retelling. It sounds like that was an earlier quote from before they'd really established that AM and BotaM were actually moons orbiting BaraM, as art in the MNS clearly shows (so if that portrayal is canon and you were on the Bara side of Aqua, no way you'd need a telescope to see Bara!).

But Greg's grasp on whether they were planets or moons was obviously never very strong for some reason, as shown in the recent forgetcon debacle and ret-retcon. I think the resolution to that probably applies here, and we should go with the answer that it was the other side. Thing is, I don't know the actual timing of that quote, nor do I trust my memory that it says what we've taken it to say for a while.

They way I interpreted that scene, was that the table was not meant to transform (please do remember how fate plays a role in BIONICLE), and thus was destroyed. The Great Beings saw a 50-50 chance of mass destruction or mass transformation, either way the planet as they knew it was going to be gone.

It would be interesting to see an alternate universe where the planet transformed rather than blow up, maybe a living planet like Oa from DC Universe.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Iaredios Paerkenon

**bonesiii** · May 10, 2015

I agree -- but when EP destroys something, it's gone (witness Plantzahni). The planet wasn't entirely consumed, just broken to pieces, so whatever reacted to cause the explosion wasn't "the planet" (though a destiny-based destruction of a particular substance is certainly possible).

The Hip Historian Iaredios · May 10, 2015

I'd go for that, a particular substance that is veined throughout the planet that was exposed and neutralized, causing a fiasco of instability and, following a chain of events, resulted in the explosion of substances surrounding the aforementioned substance, natural protodermis, and the planet core.

In my project, there are materialized forces of good and evil in the universe cast down from another plane of existence. The good is known to sentients as natural protodermis, while it's counterpart is natural antidermis. By what you have said, you've given me a solution on how Spherus Magna could have Shattered: invasive mining and harvesting by the Element Lords, more specifically the EL of Fire, could have led interaction between the two the forces and mining sparks could have led to an engulfing pyre of fragmenting uproar. Thanks for the ideas, man.

Thormen · May 10, 2015

Whoa there. It exploded Shattering the planet... And if that isn't proof enough, the GBs tested it and learned that it was explosive, as illustrated here:

Fishers and T1 also pointed out that the explosive property of Energized Protodermis was seen before in-story, so I was corrected about that. I don't see however how this is supposed to be "proof enough" that it was the EP that exploded causing the Shattering though, since all Greg said was that the core exploded due to the EP being drained. If simply tapping EP already causes it to explode, the Makuta should've been blown to bits millennia ago and most of the story wouldn't have happened. I can see two possibilities: either the Fire Tribe employed a specific method to drain the EP that caused it to explode, or the EP stabilized something explosive (as I mentioned earlier) and when it was drained the unstable core exploded. IMO both are equally likely.

What Laredios and you are theorizing about a substance being destroyed by the EP and then causing a "fiasco of instability" should actually lead to an implosion instead of an explosion. I also don't see how draining the stuff should lead to it destroying something in the core...

To the side of AM thing, I thought Greg confirmed it was tidally locked and the giant crashed on the other side.

Yes, that is what I meant when I said "the quote I posted earlier about the Great Spirit Robot lying on the far side of AM". FYI here is that quote again:

Mar 15 2010, 11:47 AM

3.) I have a theory on why the Matoran never saw Bara Magna in the sky when on Mata Nui and Voya Nui, I was just wondering if you could tell me if this was correct. I know the real reason is that Lego had not thought of Bara Magna then, but it would be nice to have a storyline reason. Basically it is that Aqua magna has a simmlar spin to our moon in that its spin and orbit are at just the right speed such that only one side of it ever faces us (or in this case Bara Magna). this way if Mata Nui crashed on the side facing away from Bara Magna (which he most likely would have seeing as he was headed towards the planet, not away from it) the Matoran on the island of Mata Nui and those on Voya Nui would never see Bara Magna in the sky as they would be facing away from it. The rotation of the moon around the planet would also have to be about 1 Matoran day for a complete rotation, to simulate the correct day and night cycle by going in front of the planet into the light and behind the planet into the dark. Would you say that this is correct?
3) Makes sense to me.

It sounds like that was an earlier quote from before they'd really established that AM and BotaM were actually moons orbiting BaraM, as art in the MNS clearly shows (so if that portrayal is canon and you were on the Bara side of Aqua, no way you'd need a telescope to see Bara!).

Which art are you referring to in particular? I can only find art depicting either the Shattering (which shows the shards leaving the planet, they're not in orbit yet at that point) or scenes during or after the time when Mata Nui uses his gravity powers to pull the shards closer, so they don't show them in the position they were in during most of the story either.

But Greg's grasp on whether they were planets or moons was obviously never very strong for some reason, as shown in the recent forgetcon debacle and ret-retcon. I think the resolution to that probably applies here, and we should go with the answer that it was the other side. Thing is, I don't know the actual timing of that quote, nor do I trust my memory that it says what we've taken it to say for a while.

The thing is, that debacle was resolved when I asked Greg to confirm new answers should be discarded when they contradict previously established canon. Applying that rule to this situation achieves the exact opposite of what you're arguing for:

These two new quotes I posted here actually precede that quote by almost a year so unless we can find a way to fix this, the quote I posted earlier must be discarded and the GSR can't have been on the far side of AM (constantly).

**bonesiii** · May 10, 2015

I don't see however how this is supposed to be "proof enough" that it was the EP that exploded causing the Shattering though

But we know it was the EP... ?

It wasn't exsidian or Thornax.

since all Greg said was that the core exploded due to the EP being drained.

Yes, which was the EP exploding, since it has explosive properties.

If simply tapping EP already causes it to explode, the Makuta should've been blown to bits millennia ago

No no. This is a destiny-based substance that has a wide variety of effects, and they were taking it from pools anyways, not the core of a planet! That's a bit like saying "if putting a slug in EP creates a suit of armor, then putting Frost Leeches in should create a business suit." You can't generalize like that with EP.

All that needs to happen is for one bit of EP to start exploding, for whatever reason, and since other EP is physically connected, chain reaction follows down the line -- and since that is the core of your planet...

BOOM.

Bits of EP in vials taken from separate pools in the MU aren't at all like that. One pool can blow up, and others are fine.

EP stabilized something explosive (as I mentioned earlier) and when it was drained the unstable core exploded. IMO both are equally likely.

While that would be a valid story, it's seeking out another source of explosive power when we already have one, so Ockham's razor applies here, I'd think.

And it really sounds like another way of saying the same thing; it's just changing exactly how the explosion starts; once it does, the EP goes too. Something that isn't EP had to trigger the explosion, probably (unless it just decided it was destiny to explode then or something

). Regardless of where it was or what it was.

What Laredios and you are theorizing about a substance being destroyed by the EP and then causing a "fiasco of instability" should actually lead to an implosion

Look at that image of the table bursting into flames again.

That's not an implosion.

I also don't see how draining the stuff should lead to it destroying something in the core

I do think "draining triggered it" is a worse explanation, hence my retelling's version, but it's not that much of a stretch. Mining explosive stuff could trigger it in any number of ways. I dunno what specific way Greg had in mind, but yeah.

If the destined destruction thing is the explanation, it could be just a matter of what substance they use for pipes!

The thing is, that debacle was resolved when I asked Greg to confirm new answers should be discarded when they contradict previously established canon. Applying that rule to this situation achieves the exact opposite of what you're arguing for:

No, because it was about LMB answers years after Bionicle ended and his memory would be expected to go down. By no means did it mean that answers from while they were still figuring things out stand over later more definite answers while Bionicle was still going. (This myth has popped up in the last month, not sure why, but let's please not let it spread. That would mess up TONS of things!)

Kovika: Visorak Lord · May 11, 2015

40 Million Foot tall robot for the win.

'Nuff Said.

Munty · May 11, 2015

Have (as usual) been watching this for a few days wihtout finding the time to comment. I see a lot fo the updates referring to how/why and how fast the planet broke apart which pretty much stick a knife in my last post so there that goes But hey ho, life goes on and at least every new FACT we find helps us come to some conclusions.

I find it very strange that Greg specifically stated the 'core' exploded. I mean in real terms that would be game over for any planet. The core of any planet is going to be pretty huge but in one the size of Spherus Magna (even if we consider a small robot) would be utterly gigantic. We're looking at something several times larger than earth exploding inside the centre of the planet and only doing this tiny amount of damage?

Is it possible that although the core exploded it was not necessarily destroyed? Perhaps the core itself 'shattered' rather than the planet. We know Bara Magna wasn't a giant shard (as shown in the comic book clip with 3 equally huge segments) so the planet itself didn't really shatter. Then why call it the shattering? If the core is what shattered though, it would make sense as a name. The GBs are probably smart enough to know what's happening after all so they're aware of what's going on inside the planet all along and simply unable to prevent it.

So let's assume for a moment the core is what shatters. We've seen other Greg comments suggesting everything happened very quickly (and they were quite specific in this so I don't think we should question them too vigorously!) In one post he states it's only a few hours between the earthquakes and the shattering though which seems very strange to me. Weren't the GBs trying to actively combat the effects of mining for a reasonably long period of time prior to this event? I'm not sure how they knew what was happening if the earthquakes started so late in the day... Perhaps as mentioned they were simply observing core activity and could see irregularities developing within the core even before any external effects were felt? It's no hard to believe that I guess and it would also explain why the warring factions weren't at all concerned about their actions.

So how does the mining cause the explosion? And what is it that explodes? Are we calling the core of the planet liquid or solid right now? It would need to be solid in order to shatter of course so I'm going to vote for that one (as I already suggested previously!) I'd also suggest that it needs to be solid in order to maintain the planet's graitational field, even after the shattering. After all, if the core is 'destroyed' then it's mass would be lost therefore reducing the planet's surface gravity. I've also seen several posts mention that the EP was just kind of gone after the shattering. I assume they don't mean literally though? I can't think of any media I've seen that covers the event very well so perhaps it states somewhere what happened to the EP during/after the shattering. If anyone could enlighten me that would be great please

Bonesii, you say the prototype robot was built BEFORE things went wonky in the core? Just BS01'd it and I see it looks like the giant robot business was basically abandoned after the initial failure and resumed only when the planet started becoming unstable. This would suggest they knew about the trouble brewing within the planet WAAAAY before the shattering as it must take thousands of years to build a robot that can house a universe (be it 3,000 or 12,000km tall!) I can believe it taking them hundreds of years at a stretch but no less than that and it seems to me like the core war isn't actually all that long. I couldn't find any dates for it, do we know how long we have between when the well was discovered and when the shattering actually occurred? We have to somehow fit the building of the GSR in there so hopefully it's not a canonised figure that doesn't work. We have one of those in here already

For the record, I really like what Thormen did with his cutaway of the planet. I can see that working pretty well

Thormen · May 11, 2015

But we know it was the EP... ?

It wasn't exsidian or Thornax.

[...]

Yes, which was the EP exploding, since it has explosive properties.

Do we, really? All I've actually read in the official sources is that the core exploded. There's no mention of EP exploding in any of Greg's quotes, no mention of it on BS01, no mention of it in any of the online serials, in Journey's End... Like I said I don't have All Our Sins Remembered so it could be in there, but right now all I see is you saying "The EP exploded, the EP exploded." without any reference to back that up.

No no. This is a destiny-based substance that has a wide variety of effects, and they were taking it from pools anyways, not the core of a planet! That's a bit like saying "if putting a slug in EP creates a suit of armor, then putting Frost Leeches in should create a business suit." You can't generalize like that with EP.

You're right that EP's transforming/disintegrating effect is unpredictable, but that is precisely why that effect can't be what was triggered here: the Shattering was predicted by the Great Beings, Raanu and Kyry. So the Fire Tribe didn't do something that only led to an explosion in this particular case, they did something that was known to lead to an explosion.

Of course EP's effects are not random, they are based on destiny. The Great Beings have always been shown to know about and control destiny in the Matoran Universe, so we can reasonably argue that they knew about the Fire Tribe's destiny of blowing up the EP. But that begs the question why they didn't change that destiny, since they have always been shown to be able to do that in the MU and they obviously wanted to avert the Shattering. The only possibility here would be that the GBs' power of knowing destiny extends beyond the MU but their power of changing it is confined to the MU, but that is just speculation and definitely not the only option for how things went down.

Based on the EP Entity's words in Destiny War I'd say he was just playing along with the Great Beings and they never actually were in control of the EP, but that's speculative as well:

"I have even let others make use of my power if I found their intentions intriguing enough."

I don't know why it would be important that the Makuta worked with pools and the EP was in the core of Spherus Magna. We're talking about bodies of EP in both cases...

While that would be a valid story, it's seeking out another source of explosive power when we already have one, so Ockham's razor applies here, I'd think.

The source we have of exploding power is not simply EP, it is heating up EP. We have no indication that that was what the Fire Tribe was doing with it, we only know they were draining it. There are multiple possible options, we shouldn't just pick one and disregard the rest. Ockham's Razor applies when one possible explanation is significantly more likely than others: IMO your option is not significantly more likely but that's subjective so discussing that won't lead anywhere.

And it really sounds like another way of saying the same thing; it's just changing exactly how the explosion starts; once it does, the EP goes too. Something that isn't EP had to trigger the explosion, probably (unless it just decided it was destiny to explode then or something ). Regardless of where it was or what it was.

Yeah it's a detail. What's important is that the explosion happened in the core, which is what my theory is trying to explain.

Look at that image of the table bursting into flames again.

That's not an implosion.

That is not an implosion, no. That is one of two things:

1) A visually inaccurate portrayal of EP's known effect of disintigrating stuff that's not destined to transform.

2) A portrayal of EP causing a specific material to blow up.

Laredios and you were talking about the known property of EP that it disintegrated whatever it touches that isn't destined to transform. Disintegration =/= explosion.

No, because it was about LMB answers years after Bionicle ended and his memory would be expected to go down. By no means did it mean that answers from while they were still figuring things out stand over later more definite answers while Bionicle was still going. (This myth has popped up in the last month, not sure why, but let's please not let it spread. That would mess up TONS of things!)

Err, you're the one who suggested using that rule:

But Greg's grasp on whether they were planets or moons was obviously never very strong for some reason, as shown in the recent forgetcon debacle and ret-retcon. I think the resolution to that probably applies here, and we should go with the answer that it was the other side. Thing is, I don't know the actual timing of that quote, nor do I trust my memory that it says what we've taken it to say for a while.

But in any case, it is true that I specifically asked him whether it was a general rule to be followed on the LMB, so it doesn't apply here.

That still leaves us with two contradictory quotes, though. Or seemingly contradictory, as I suggested before.

I find it very strange that Greg specifically stated the 'core' exploded. I mean in real terms that would be game over for any planet. The core of any planet is going to be pretty huge but in one the size of Spherus Magna (even if we consider a small robot) would be utterly gigantic. We're looking at something several times larger than earth exploding inside the centre of the planet and only doing this tiny amount of damage?

Yeah, that's why I think the core is pretty soft compared to the rest of the planet's material, possibly liquid. Basically it works if the planet had significant weak spots around Bota Magna and Aqua Magna while the main body of the planet was too strong to be shattered by the explosion. That would still knock a lot of debris into space, but at least Bara Magna, Bota Magna and Aqua Magna remain intact.

Is it possible that although the core exploded it was not necessarily destroyed? Perhaps the core itself 'shattered' rather than the planet. We know Bara Magna wasn't a giant shard (as shown in the comic book clip with 3 equally huge segments) so the planet itself didn't really shatter. Then why call it the shattering? If the core is what shattered though, it would make sense as a name.

That kinda depends on what you mean by 'destroyed' and 'shattered'... If the core exploded, then its matter definitely didn't just vanish out of existence, explosions create debris and smoke etc. So the core wasn't so much 'destroyed', but turned into debris and gases, while sending a massive shockwave through the planet. But if the explosion wasn't too powerful, that debris and those gases would be slowed down by the planet's gravity and eventually be pulled back onto each other and form a new core.

Whether the planet actually 'shattered'... Well that's basically the question where you draw the line between 'shattering' and 'breaking'. If you drop a glass on the floor and it breaks into one big piece, two smaller pieces and thousands of little shards, does that count as 'shattering' or is that just 'breaking'? That's difficult to say IMO, there's a very blurry line between 'shattering' and 'breaking'. There's actually no separate word for 'shattering' in my native language, if I were to translate it I would paraphrase it as 'breaking into a thousand (little) pieces'. :shrugs:

In one post he states it's only a few hours between the earthquakes and the shattering though which seems very strange to me.

Actually he says there were only a few hours between the end of the Final Battle and the Shattering. I assumed the earthquakes had to happen during those few hours, since the cause for them wasn't present before the Final Battle (because the Fire Tribe wasn't in control of the spring yet). I think the Great Beings were aware of what the danger was before the quakes happened, they were probably observing core activity as you suggested.

I'd also suggest that it needs to be solid in order to maintain the planet's graitational field, even after the shattering. After all, if the core is 'destroyed' then it's mass would be lost therefore reducing the planet's surface gravity.

Why would it need to be solid? Explosions don't utterly destroy something so that its mass ceases to be and liquids have a mass as well.

I've also seen several posts mention that the EP was just kind of gone after the shattering. I assume they don't mean literally though? I can't think of any media I've seen that covers the event very well so perhaps it states somewhere what happened to the EP during/after the shattering. If anyone could enlighten me that would be great please

All I know is that it basically stops appearing in the history of Bara Magna after the Shattering. If it was gone, it would explain why the Core War ended though, but there are more possible explanations for that: the warring factions might be too scared to fight on, they might suddenly be afraid of EP and not want to possess it anymore... Also 'gone' doesn't have to mean there was no trace of it anywhere within Bara Magna, it can also just mean the spring was destroyed and no one could access the EP anymore. But I'm really hoping someone could have a look at the ending of All Our Sins Remembered since I believe that's the most complete account of what happened there.

For the record, I really like what Thormen did with his cutaway of the planet. I can see that working pretty well

Thanks

Mailli · May 11, 2015

I can see two possibilities: either the Fire Tribe employed a specific method to drain the EP that caused it to explode, or the EP stabilized something explosive (as I mentioned earlier) and when it was drained the unstable core exploded. IMO both are equally likely.

Oil is usually drained by pumping air, water, or gas into the reserve, forcing the oil out. I imagine a similar technique may have been used with the Energised Protodermis.

Like alcohol based fuels, EP might need oxygen, or a Bionicle equivalent, to combust and explode. By pumping air into the planet, the high temperature and pressure from going deep enough could trigger an explosion. Because not all of the EP would explode at once, as the air would only touch a fraction of all of it, the initial explosions could have exposed more EP, creating the chain reaction that we seem to favour.

Regitnui · May 11, 2015

Can I point out that this was the Fire Tribe who triggered the Shattering. While the cooler Ice Tribe was mining, there were apparently no indications of Earth-Shattering Kaboom. Once the Fire Tribe moved in, likely bringing in heat sources or hotter-running tech, the EP might have reached exploding temperature much easier than it would when the Ice Tribe was mining.

That is, if temperature is even a factor in EP Booms... :shrug:

The 1st Shadow · May 11, 2015

Can I point out that this was the Fire Tribe who triggered the Shattering. While the cooler Ice Tribe was mining, there were apparently no indications of Earth-Shattering Kaboom. Once the Fire Tribe moved in, likely bringing in heat sources or hotter-running tech, the EP might have reached exploding temperature much easier than it would when the Ice Tribe was mining.

That is, if temperature is even a factor in EP Booms... :shrug:

First off, is that a Marvin the Martian reference? If so, I applaud!

Second, I've been thinking the same thing. During the War, the tribes DID have elemental weapons created by the GBs. It wouldn't surprise me if they found secondary uses for some of those tools.

And yeah, temperature seems to be key, as evidenced by Vakama blowing up that vial in the Temple.

**bonesiii** · May 11, 2015

I find it very strange that Greg specifically stated the 'core' exploded. I mean in real terms that would be game over for any planet.

Sure, lol, but things that are very strange for real life are common in Bionicle (and the whole science fantasy genre).

As to your idea for the core itself shattering and being solid, that does seem more plausible. But again it's supposing an unknown -- solid EP. Seems unlikely to me.

it must take thousands of years to build a robot that can house a universe

Depends on how it's made. If you're imagining they were limited to "normal-physics" mechanical devices, I doubt that. We were never told exactly how, but I've got two main candidates for now:

1) Version in my retelling, for the gravity absorption megaplanet, where a "lake" (compared to the Great Sea) was started transforming by a bit of the first artificial proto and/or EP, into the rest of protodermis (and various machines and people then made pieces and put them together).

2) A power materializes pieces (which are then put together). This one works regardless of the size and gravity of the planet.

And no, we weren't given dates for the Core War and IMO it's best that way.

All I've actually read in the official sources is that the core exploded.

And that core was made of EP (wasn't it?). We don't know details, and Greg isn't, pretty much, ever going to give them on such subjects. We don't know if it was pure EP in a hollow core or a mixture or what, but it was all about EP.

Now if somehow the common knowledge that the core is energized protodermis is unfounded, that would be one thing, but basing that assumption on not happening to find a quote confirming it is not enough to show that. Common knowledge has been based on false rumors before, but usually such well-known things aren't.

It's worth looking into more. :shrugs:

You're right that EP's transforming/disintegrating effect is unpredictable, but that is precisely why that effect can't be what was triggered here: the Shattering was predicted by the Great Beings

The part I bolded here is simply a misunderstanding. I didn't say or mean to imply that it's unpredictable, and the example of Kraata that disproves that was even in my post. I said we can't make sweeping assumptions like the one I was replying to. It does react predictably to certain substances or things which would certainly be easy to test by scientific experimentation -- which is right up the GBs' ally.

The Great Beings have always been shown to know about and control destiny in the Matoran Universe, so we can reasonably argue that they knew about the Fire Tribe's destiny of blowing up the EP. But that begs the question why they didn't change that destiny, since they have always been shown to be able to do that in the MU

My retelling has an explanation for that. Tied into the big themes and mysteries of the story, so I can't get too detailed, but what I can say is that canonically we know that they can add destinies, and possibly change destinies that they added, but whether they can affect destinies they didn't add, we don't know (and this would strongly suggest not or not easily enough).

Based on the EP Entity's words in Destiny War I'd say he was just playing along with the Great Beings and they never actually were in control of the EP,

Please note it's thought that the Entity has no (conscious?) control over destiny. He seems to inhabit EP, not control every aspect of it.

But that would be one valid route.

I don't know why it would be important that the Makuta worked with pools and the EP was in the core of Spherus Magna.

I presume you're typing as you read, but in case my explaining this later isn't clear, same reason dyamite stored together might all go up at once, but a stick far away won't blow up every other stick in existence. (Of course, this is also the substance that the Entity claims he can appear in any pool of, actually implying some kind of connection like that, but evidently explosions don't use that, or Vakama would have blown up all EP!)

I was going to mention too but ran out of time that it wouldn't make sense that the Makuta go extinct or whatever you mean either! I doubt they personally did the work, but even if they did, they'd probably get blasted backward, but survive. (Assuming there were no holes in their armor for the flames to burn up their antidermis or assuming they were far enough away the heat wouldn't... etc.)

The source we have of exploding power is not simply EP, it is heating up EP. We have no indication that that was what the Fire Tribe was doing with it

Actually we do, though only as an apparently implied theory we're supposed to deduce, by that image. The razor interpretation is that the image shows the very experiment where the GBs learned what would happen, which means somehow contact with that substance (or in my retelling's version, electrical circuit running through it, but that's not likely canonically) is what the Fire Tribe did wrong.

I think it's comparable to lead, how it used to be used in common building materials and the like because it was cheap. Probably the Fire Tribe couldn't economically replace that substance or whatever it was.

Anyways, the point is, that image shows flames.

Err, you're the one who suggested using that rule:

The rule as it actually is, yes -- that "final answers" while Bionicle was ongoing stand, against forgetcons now, and specifically that they are indeed moons.

I didn't suggest the misconception of the rule that "old is always better". Make sense?

Why would it need to be solid?

I interpreted Munty as saying a solid crumbled, basically. :shrugs:

Can I point out that this was the Fire Tribe who triggered the Shattering. While the cooler Ice Tribe was mining, there were apparently no indications of Earth-Shattering Kaboom. Once the Fire Tribe moved in, likely bringing in heat sources or hotter-running tech, the EP might have reached exploding temperature much easier than it would when the Ice Tribe was mining.

I was actually going to mention this alternate possibility earlier (since their warriors carried elementally-charged weapons in the war), but it's unlikely due to the table fire image and the "due to draining" quote.

Maybe something related is behind it though. Maybe the substance in question is common to the Fire Tribe, maybe an alloy they make or something they mine (in places EP wouldn't normally contact... or something).

(Note: The one thing we can apparently rule out is exsidian since it's part of the protodermis-exsidian mix that is EP-proof... just in case anybody thinks of that.)

Edited May 11, 2015 by bonesiii

IcarusBen · May 12, 2015

I don't know what's going on here, so I'm just gonna start talking about what the poll's actually about.

Yes, I realize that Bionicle doesn't operate on the same physics as Earth. That said, I have a suspension of disbelief. With a 12,000 km robot, my disbelief is roughly the size of a small moon and my suspension is a piece of floss.

If what the common theory that AM is earth-sized holds true, why doesn't the robot have either a). immense curvature we never see in the animations or b). parts of him jutting out of the water? With a 3k km robot, it's nowhere near as bad (though a little bit implausible) but with a 12k km one?

That's why I operate on the idea that the Toa are roughly 8 inches tall, give or take judging from Mata Nui Glatorian's set height as the "average" Toa height and that the robot is closer to 4 million feet (or 1,200 km) than it is to 40 million. But that's just me.

Thormen · May 12, 2015

Oil is usually drained by pumping air, water, or gas into the reserve, forcing the oil out. I imagine a similar technique may have been used with the Energised Protodermis.
Like alcohol based fuels, EP might need oxygen, or a Bionicle equivalent, to combust and explode. By pumping air into the planet, the high temperature and pressure from going deep enough could trigger an explosion. Because not all of the EP would explode at once, as the air would only touch a fraction of all of it, the initial explosions could have exposed more EP, creating the chain reaction that we seem to favour.

I like that idea very much, it's detailed and based on real-world physics. I was assuming the Fire Tribe only pumped Energized Protodermis out, but it would go a lot faster this way and I can definitely see an oxygen-pressure-heat combo blowing up the EP.

As to your idea for the core itself shattering and being solid, that does seem more plausible. But again it's supposing an unknown -- solid EP. Seems unlikely to me.

[...]

And that core was made of EP (wasn't it?). We don't know details, and Greg isn't, pretty much, ever going to give them on such subjects. We don't know if it was pure EP in a hollow core or a mixture or what, but it was all about EP.

Now if somehow the common knowledge that the core is energized protodermis is unfounded, that would be one thing, but basing that assumption on not happening to find a quote confirming it is not enough to show that. Common knowledge has been based on false rumors before, but usually such well-known things aren't.

It's worth looking into more.

Oooooh, now I get what this is all about. You're assuming the core consisted of EP only (or mostly or whatever) and I'm not. Under your assumption I do understand why you responded immediately by saying the EP "exploded shattering the planet", because then it simply follows out of Greg's quote that the core exploded. Without that assumption however there are more possibilities for which substance would've actually exploded.

The EP Entity says it "lived in the core of a planet, until one day a portion of my substance forced its way to the surface." in Destiny War Chapter #7. I searched for Greg quotes containing the word 'core' and this is the only one I could find on the subject:

Jul 17 2009, 09:12 PM

2) Seeing as the Northern Frost is still on SM’s third moon, is it safe to say that the EP Spring is still there?
2a) Might it sill be active in any way?
2) Unlikely. The EP was in the core of the planet and bubbling up. When the planet shattered, the EP drained and froze in outer space.

So as far as I know the only thing that was ever said is that EP was "in the core". That doesn't have to mean the entire core was composed of EP, there could still be other (possibly explosive) matter in the core. :shrugs:

This quote also answers Munty's earlier question about why the EP is apparently "gone": apparently it all drifted into outer space and then it froze in accordance with comic book science. Although I'm sure we can theorize EP has another special property that causes it to freeze in outer space.

The part I bolded here is simply a misunderstanding. I didn't say or mean to imply that it's unpredictable, and the example of Kraata that disproves that was even in my post. I said we can't make sweeping assumptions like the one I was replying to. It does react predictably to certain substances or things which would certainly be easy to test by scientific experimentation -- which is right up the GBs' ally.

Right, but the Kraata are transformed according to their destiny and as I said the transformations are destiny-based and not random. Of course it's possible the EP came into contact with a substance that the GBs knew from experiments would always cause it to explode, that is one of the possible options for how it went down. I was talking about the idea that the EP was destined to explode at that specific moment, which is something the GBs are unlikely to have learned through scientific experimentation. Similar to the Toa Mata's transformation into Toa Nuva: they were only destined to do that at the exact moment at which it happened, so they would have been destroyed at any other moment. This would have made it very difficult for anyone to scientifically research the effect of dropping Toa Mata into EP: there's no guarantee that the outcome is always the same.

My retelling has an explanation for that. Tied into the big themes and mysteries of the story, so I can't get too detailed, but what I can say is that canonically we know that they can add destinies, and possibly change destinies that they added, but whether they can affect destinies they didn't add, we don't know (and this would strongly suggest not or not easily enough).

That's nice, that's another possibility.

Please note it's thought that the Entity has no (conscious?) control over destiny. He seems to inhabit EP, not control every aspect of it.

But that would be one valid route.

Yeah I know that's the general assumption but I never understood where it came from. The EP Entity seems to imply IMO that he does control destiny (as far as EP transformations go) in the quote from DW I posted. He later on says "Transformation, or destruction, which will be your fate? Let us find out, together." of course, but I always interpreted that as being some kind of dramatic statement along the lines of a villain saying "Now, what shall I do with you?". I don't see how else he could "let others make use of my power".

I presume you're typing as you read, but in case my explaining this later isn't clear, same reason dyamite stored together might all go up at once, but a stick far away won't blow up every other stick in existence. (Of course, this is also the substance that the Entity claims he can appear in any pool of, actually implying some kind of connection like that, but evidently explosions don't use that, or Vakama would have blown up all EP!)

I was going to mention too but ran out of time that it wouldn't make sense that the Makuta go extinct or whatever you mean either! I doubt they personally did the work, but even if they did, they'd probably get blasted backward, but survive. (Assuming there were no holes in their armor for the flames to burn up their antidermis or assuming they were far enough away the heat wouldn't... etc.)

Oh right, one exploding pool doesn't trigger a chain reaction, that's true. What I meant with Makuta going extinct is if it were a general rule that EP blows up everything it touches that is not destined to transform. Even if they (or whoever did the dirty work) would only get blasted back, they'd lose the EP and have to try again.

Actually we do, though only as an apparently implied theory we're supposed to deduce, by that image. The razor interpretation is that the image shows the very experiment where the GBs learned what would happen, which means somehow contact with that substance (or in my retelling's version, electrical circuit running through it, but that's not likely canonically) is what the Fire Tribe did wrong.

I think it's comparable to lead, how it used to be used in common building materials and the like because it was cheap. Probably the Fire Tribe couldn't economically replace that substance or whatever it was.

Anyways, the point is, that image shows flames.

All I see in that image is a table being dropped into the EP and it then catching flame. I do think it's possible the Fire Tribe used the wrong substance to drain EP, just not that it's the only possibility.

The rule as it actually is, yes -- that "final answers" while Bionicle was ongoing stand, against forgetcons now, and specifically that they are indeed moons.

I didn't suggest the misconception of the rule that "old is always better". Make sense?

Ah I see, I thought you were referring to newer rule since you referred to the moon debacle.

I interpreted Munty as saying a solid crumbled, basically.

Yeah I know it needs to be solid to work for his "shattering core" theory, but I don't see how it has to be solid to maintain the gravitational field.

Can I point out that this was the Fire Tribe who triggered the Shattering. While the cooler Ice Tribe was mining, there were apparently no indications of Earth-Shattering Kaboom. Once the Fire Tribe moved in, likely bringing in heat sources or hotter-running tech, the EP might have reached exploding temperature much easier than it would when the Ice Tribe was mining.
I was actually going to mention this alternate possibility earlier (since their warriors carried elementally-charged weapons in the war), but it's unlikely due to the table fire image and the "due to draining" quote.

That's another possibility, and I don't think the "due to draining" quote rules it out actually. The Fire Tribe might have been pumping their elemental charges into the spring to heat the EP and cause it to expand and rise up. You really do get the feeling that they were a bunch of idiots if that's the case, lol.

If what the common theory that AM is earth-sized holds true, why doesn't the robot have either a). immense curvature we never see in the animations or b). parts of him jutting out of the water? With a 3k km robot, it's nowhere near as bad (though a little bit implausible) but with a 12k km one?

Well that's some of the stuff we're talking about, but by now it's such a wall of text that you probably don't want to read through all of it. Basically Munty suggested that AM's rock is not a sphere but still a clear "chunk" of Spherus Magna and that its surface diameter is three times the diameter of earth (so bigger). He drew some doodles a few pages back that showed the idea, and I drew one on this page that works with a Spherus Magna the size of Jupiter.

IcarusBen · May 12, 2015

I thought Greg himself had said AM was Earth-sized.

Of course, he also thought a 40 million foot tall robot was a good idea. Greg hasn't really got a sense of scale.

Klack · May 12, 2015

Greg needs to fact-check his own canon.

Thormen · May 12, 2015

I thought Greg himself had said AM was Earth-sized.

Don't think so... I did a search for "earth" in Fishers' archives for Greg quotes and didn't see him saying that anywhere. That would definitely be awkward, Dina drew what that would look like on page #2 of this topic.

IcarusBen · May 12, 2015

I thought Greg himself had said AM was Earth-sized.
Don't think so... I did a search for "earth" in Fishers' archives for Greg quotes and didn't see him saying that anywhere. That would definitely be awkward, Dina drew what that would look like on page #2 of this topic.

Hm... Interesting.

Of course, if AM is 3x Earth-sized, then SM would be HUGE. I don't care if the core is EP, what about the rest of the planet? Heck, a theory as to why SM didn't disintegrate was that it was partly exsidian around the core. I've always seen exsidian as a metal, so if the mantle and lower crust of the planet are made of exsidian... oh god.

Plus, has it ever been said that the core of SM was ENTIRELY EP? I'm sure that there's some other materials to help hold it all together.

**bonesiii** · May 13, 2015

Oooooh, now I get what this is all about. You're assuming the core consisted of EP only (or mostly or whatever) and I'm not.

Eh, I don't know how to take this, since "or whatever" would cover just about anything, no? EP is in the core, and it's explosive, and it's the subject of the Shattering quotes and story mentions as far as I know. I don't see what's being assumed? What's the alternative to "EP was in the core in some amount"? (Other than no EP?)

This quote also answers Munty's earlier question about why the EP is apparently "gone": apparently it all drifted into outer space and then it froze

Interesting. I don't think anybody's ever posted that quote in anyplace I've followed. So the EP was, itself, not obliterated (or not all of it?) and "froze" certainly implies it can be solid! (But only if at cold temperatures, so I guess the EP in the core would probably be liquid as previously thought.)

Yeah I know that's the general assumption but I never understood where it came from. The EP Entity seems to imply IMO that he does control destiny (as far as EP transformations go) in the quote from DW I posted. He later on says "Transformation, or destruction, which will be your fate? Let us find out, together." of course, but I always interpreted that as being some kind of dramatic statement along the lines of a villain saying "Now, what shall I do with you?". I don't see how else he could "let others make use of my power".

Okay, that's got me curious. What specifically made you think that? Just the part in the last sentence here?

(Now maybe we had a quote confirming he doesn't know the results, I don't recall.)

If the last sentence, I don't see why that means he must know the results. The "not letting" would be his guarding the pool, no? So allowing would be letting them use the EP for experiments, maybe getting lucky results, or finding something like Kraata.

(Of course, he probably knows many examples of Kraata-type things, so from experience he MIGHT know a lot of the results. But I mean in terms of controlling them.)

What I meant with Makuta going extinct is if it were a general rule that EP blows up everything it touches that is not destined to transform. Even if they (or whoever did the dirty work) would only get blasted back, they'd lose the EP and have to try again.

Nobody said it blows up everything it destroys (and didn't we see examples where it only acted like acid?). We're talking about one particular (unidentified) substance having that as its Kraata-equivalent predictable result.

All I see in that image is a table being dropped into the EP and it then catching flame. I do think it's possible the Fire Tribe used the wrong substance to drain EP, just not that it's the only possibility.

Never said it was -- I said it seems like the Ockham's razor possibility. :shrugs:

(And am I just too tired or that was a typo... or did you say the table being dropped? It was EP being dropped (or dripped) onto the table. :lookaround: )

I don't think the "due to draining" quote rules it out actually. The Fire Tribe might have been pumping their elemental charges into the spring to heat the EP and cause it to expand and rise up. You really do get the feeling that they were a bunch of idiots if that's the case, lol.

Yeah, heh, but good idea for another possibility. Doesn't really fit that image though.

(Unless the table was an oven or something.)

Edited May 13, 2015 by bonesiii

fishers64 · May 13, 2015

I don't recall any story source or Greg quote saying that the EP froze.

The fact that it drifted into outer space is confirmed though.

Thormen · May 13, 2015

Of course, if AM is 3x Earth-sized, then SM would be HUGE. I don't care if the core is EP, what about the rest of the planet? Heck, a theory as to why SM didn't disintegrate was that it was partly exsidian around the core. I've always seen exsidian as a metal, so if the mantle and lower crust of the planet are made of exsidian... oh god.

Well I drew Spherus magna at roughly the size of Jupiter (though it has to be heavier than Jupiter since it's not a gas giant), so yeah it would be huge but still in the size range for planets. I'm not sure how to intepret the rest of what you said...

Plus, has it ever been said that the core of SM was ENTIRELY EP? I'm sure that there's some other materials to help hold it all together.

Nope, has never been said by an official source. Bones and I are talking about this actually, I'm actually responding to his post directly below this paragraph.

Eh, I don't know how to take this, since "or whatever" would cover just about anything, no? EP is in the core, and it's explosive, and it's the subject of the Shattering quotes and story mentions as far as I know. I don't see what's being assumed? What's the alternative to "EP was in the core in some amount"? (Other than no EP?)

"Or whatever" was a poor choice of words yes, I should have worded it like this: you assumed the core was composed of EP to such a degree that an explosion in the core would have to have been started by the EP exploding. I don't think we can make that assumption, the core could consist of other materials as well that may have exploded when the EP was drained away from them.

Interesting. I don't think anybody's ever posted that quote in anyplace I've followed. So the EP was, itself, not obliterated (or not all of it?) and "froze" certainly implies it can be solid! (But only if at cold temperatures, so I guess the EP in the core would probably be liquid as previously thought.)

Well, cold cores can exist as well, but I do agree the EP there was most likely liquid. Otherwise I find it hard to picture how it could've forced its way to the surface.

Okay, that's got me curious. What specifically made you think that? Just the part in the last sentence here?

(Now maybe we had a quote confirming he doesn't know the results, I don't recall.)

If the last sentence, I don't see why that means he must know the results. The "not letting" would be his guarding the pool, no? So allowing would be letting them use the EP for experiments, maybe getting lucky results, or finding something like Kraata.

It was mostly the overall implication of this chapter of Destiny War. When I first read it, it struck me as this major revelation where the EP Entity revealed that he was not just a nobody, but in fact an ancient creature in charge of those destinies that are related to EP. It seemed to me a revelation for how the Great Beings managed to have the EP perform destiny-based transformations on people: the EP Entity found the GBs' plans intriguing and chose to do what they wanted. If you assume that he's not in control of the transformations, all of that goes away and the chapter boils down to: "Hi guys, I'm the guy who's guarding this stuff. You never met me before because I never minded you coming near it, but now I do so you're gonna die." Plus of course that it was the first mention of the Core War, but I still think it's a lot less ominous.

I understand that all of that was solely based on my personal feelings regarding what's going on in this chapter, so this should by no means be intepreted as proof that that's how it is. At the same time however I haven't seen anything that disproves it either, like you said I don't know of any source that says the EP Entity doesn't control whether it transforms or destroys.

Nobody said it blows up everything it destroys (and didn't we see examples where it only acted like acid?). We're talking about one particular (unidentified) substance having that as its Kraata-equivalent predictable result.

Yeah I agree that's a possibility.

Never said it was -- I said it seems like the Ockham's razor possibility.

No, but you originally said the EP was definitely what exploded (first) in the core, but that's been cleared up now. Like I said the question whether it's the Ockham's razor possibility is subjective.

(And am I just too tired or that was a typo... or did you say the table being dropped? It was EP being dropped (or dripped) onto the table. )

I guess I interpreted the picture differently, probably due to the lighting and the camera angle. I interpreted the upper image like this: we are looking upwards, so we're seeing a massive crane from below. That crane is dropping a table which is falling towards us. The lower image shows it falling into a pool of EP. Now that you mention the EP being dropped/dripped onto the table I can see the other (probably correct) interpretation as well.

Yeah, heh, but good idea for another possibility. Doesn't really fit that image though.

(Unless the table was an oven or something.)

Or unless the picture is meant to show one of the many experiments the GBs did that led them to conclude that EP is a very dangerous substance. :shrugs: Like I said I don't own the graphic novel, so it's hard for me to judge how this scene is linked to the rest of the story.

I don't recall any story source or Greg quote saying that the EP froze.

The fact that it drifted into outer space is confirmed though.

Greg said so:

Jul 17 2009, 09:12 PM

2) Seeing as the Northern Frost is still on SM’s third moon, is it safe to say that the EP Spring is still there?
2a) Might it sill be active in any way?
2) Unlikely. The EP was in the core of the planet and bubbling up. When the planet shattered, the EP drained and froze in outer space.

fishers64 · May 13, 2015

I stand corrected.

**bonesiii** · May 14, 2015

"Or whatever" was a poor choice of words yes, I should have worded it like this: you assumed the core was composed of EP to such a degree that an explosion in the core would have to have been started by the EP exploding.

This wording doesn't seem to help either, since I said that presumably something else starts the explosion... :lookaround:

It sounds like what you really are driving at is that the EP might not have exploded at all, and just happened to be blasted away as a side effect when something else exploded (and only it exploded). Which would help explain how the EP isn't obliterated and is in space. :shrugs: Otherwise it doesn't seem likely so far.

It was mostly the overall implication of this chapter of Destiny War. When I first read it, it struck me as this major revelation where the EP Entity revealed that he was not just a nobody, but in fact an ancient creature in charge of those destinies that are related to EP.

Well, I just looked it up right now, and it looks like that's actually the section that the idea was based on, that he doesn't know the coming results. Notice:

"Now I experiment on the creatures and things I find around me," said the Entity.

And a little earlier:

"I have been expecting you," said the figure. "I have felt your kind at work in my pools throughout this universe.

So, he does what you'd do if you didn't know (why experiment if you already know?), and he didn't expect them because of destiny but just that people of their group were interacting with the pools (and apparently he means he expected any representative, not those specific individuals).

Then at the end:

"Transformation, or destruction," said the Entity. "Which will be your fate? Let us find out, together."

I don't see anything implying the opposite. He does at one point say he "is" every molecule of EP, but that already makes sense from his earlier statement that he could appear in any pool, and even if he means it literally it just means he inhabits every molecule, not controls destiny.

No, but you originally said the EP was definitely what exploded (first) in the core

I don't recall saying first, and as I mentioned above, I actually said presumably the opposite a few posts back... Sounds like you simply misunderstood. But I did mean that the EP apparently exploded, which still seems like the best explanation since we do know it's explosive and the key image associated with knowing the Shattering was coming shows an explosive reaction.

I guess I interpreted the picture differently, probably due to the lighting and the camera angle. I interpreted the upper image like this: we are looking upwards, so we're seeing a massive crane from below. That crane is dropping a table which is falling towards us. The lower image shows it falling into a pool of EP. Now that you mention the EP being dropped/dripped onto the table I can see the other (probably correct) interpretation as well.

It's clearly drops of silver liquid going onto the table. Look more closely:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/f/f6/AOSR_Energized_Protodermis_Testing.png

And all they had was a small vial anyways. There was no pool.

Edited May 14, 2015 by bonesiii

IcarusBen · May 14, 2015

What I meant by that was that metals are often much denser than non-metals, and heck, isn't protodermis a metal? If that's the case, gravity on SM must be a nightmare. It kinda fits the idea of having set-sized inhabitants, since smaller beings would have an easier time on high-gravity worlds

The Hip Historian Iaredios · May 14, 2015

What I meant by that was that metals are often much denser than non-metals, and heck, isn't protodermis a metal? If that's the case, gravity on SM must be a nightmare. It kinda fits the idea of having set-sized inhabitants, since smaller beings would have an easier time on high-gravity worlds

Natural Protodermis (or as the MU calls it, Energized Protodermis) is a mystery. It appears to be like a glowing mercury, it enacts upon the will of fate (being an agent of whoever, or whatever forces control destiny), and is not only sentient but also seems to have multiple like-minds within itself (usages of 'we' and such). To categorize such a being/substance/entity with simple ores like Iron and Nickel is a grave mistake.

If you are seeking a possible theory of origin, I have a project where I have explored a possible origin and it touches upon the divine.

Thormen · May 15, 2015

This wording doesn't seem to help either, since I said that presumably something else starts the explosion...

Huh? o.O I have no idea where you supposedly said that... In fact you seem to say the exact opposite over here:

I don't see however how this is supposed to be "proof enough" that it was the EP that exploded causing the Shattering though

But we know it was the EP... ?

It wasn't exsidian or Thornax.

since all Greg said was that the core exploded due to the EP being drained.

Yes, which was the EP exploding, since it has explosive properties.

It sounds like what you really are driving at is that the EP might not have exploded at all, and just happened to be blasted away as a side effect when something else exploded (and only it exploded). Which would help explain how the EP isn't obliterated and is in space. Otherwise it doesn't seem likely so far.

No that's not what I'm driving at. That was my original idea before Fishers and T1 pointed out that we know Energized Protodermis is explosive, but then I changed my mind and pointed out that we still don't know the EP was the first thing to explode.

But now that you mention it, the fact that the EP wasn't destroyed and drifted into outer space does make it much more likely that the explosion happened separately from the EP: if EP had been the exploding substance and all of it were connected to each other, then it should all have burned up. That makes it likely my idea of it stabilizing something explosive in the core was right after all.

So, he does what you'd do if you didn't know (why experiment if you already know?), and he didn't expect them because of destiny but just that people of their group were interacting with the pools (and apparently he means he expected any representative, not those specific individuals).

Interesting, I had overlooked the part about experimenting (or mostly the implications of that word). 'Experimenting' definitely means doing something of which you don't know the outcome. One alternative is that the EP Entity wasn't so much experimenting to see what the creatures would transform into, but rather to see what its creations would do after it had transformed them. The wording "experiment on" however makes that unlikely.

It's clearly drops of silver liquid going onto the table. Look more closely:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/f/f6/AOSR_Energized_Protodermis_Testing.png

And all they had was a small vial anyways. There was no pool.

I'm not saying you're wrong about this, just saying I initially interpreted the picture differently and I don't have All Our Sins Remembered to put this picture in the correct context.

What I meant by that was that metals are often much denser than non-metals, and heck, isn't protodermis a metal? If that's the case, gravity on SM must be a nightmare. It kinda fits the idea of having set-sized inhabitants, since smaller beings would have an easier time on high-gravity worlds

Protodermis is sometimes a metal and sometimes it isn't. The Great Beings created Protodermis so it could appear in many forms (metal, rock, room-temperature liquid, molten...). However, the truth about Protodermis and the Spherus Magna planet is simply that we don't know how dense or heavy they are, so we can stretch the numbers a bit without making things impossible. Spherus Magna for example could be significantly less dense than earth, reducing the gravity. It cannot however be less dense than Jupiter, since Jupiter is composed of gaseous hydrogen and helium and those gases are always less dense than solids and liquids.

So you're right that the gravity on Spherus Magna is probably much too great for normal humans to be able to support their own weight, but there are no humans on Spherus Magna so that's no problem. We don't know how heavy BIONICLE characters are and we don't know what kind of loads they can carry, so we can't conclude that they're too big to support themselves.

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