Plantlife's gender

[maxim21]

Well there we go, there's our opening. Can someone on the LMB petition Greg to make Plasma female then?

If that was to be done, wouldn't it be better to make a poll here before - just to have some kind of estimate for how many people want it/do not want it/don't care?

[Iku]

Even the Water Protector is referred to with male pronouns on the official Lego website, and if the "passed down from father to son" bit about the Protector's masks is literal, it could mean that Gali is the only female on the island.

The instance of the PoW is something I think we can gloss over. All the Protectors have the exact same description, and only the PoF had any sort of characterization in the animations. Beyond that, there's literally no information on those guys. Until proven otherwise, there's always the possibility that one or more of the Protectors are female (personally, I'm all for the Ice and Jungle ones being female).

@SailorQuaoar A very similar thing happened in 2009 when they introduced the bigendered Agori and Glatorian tribes, where the only female set character (out of 24 released set characters(!) and I'm not even counting the Zesk or Vorox since those were species rather than characters) was Kiina. That's a ratio of 1:23, and it was disheartening to see how it became even more skewed, as a direct result of the unlocking of the gender lock.

 

This precedence makes me think Lego is just going to default to all male protectors, but I hope they prove me wrong.

 

@The~1st~Shadow For some reason, I keep thinking the PoE is female. Aside from that, I'm inclined to think that PoW and PoJ are also female, but seriously, kudos to the set designers for making the Protector masks look fairly gender-neutral - I can imagine them being both female and male by just the mask, but it's in the build of the figure that distinguishes them.

 

 

Also with the fact that the descriptions for the protector masks says 'father to son' that would imply that there is some form of reproduction, which in the typical sense also would imply there are females in the tribes. I imagine G2 will likely have something similar to the Spherus Magna tribes. Right now I think the descriptions on the bionicle site is just lego being lazy and giving the least amount of information, meaning the credibility is slim to none.

@Voxumo In all likelihood, I have to agree with you - it's just lazy maintenance of their website. I'm still a bit disappointed at the lack of effort put into making the website - it's all still images on a blakc background with a few descriptions and videos. Very little animation or interactivity, and it is put to shame by even the Hero Factory's launch website, back when there was tonnes of content and little things to discover on the website.

 

I do understand that this may be due to focus testing showing that kids don't look on websites anymore and that my opinion on what should be on the site may not be in Lego's best interests. But I can dream, right?

 

 

FTR, the scene with the Toa of Plasma is in BL1. Here's the passage (p37):

Then he remembered a night long ago, an island far to the south, and a Toa of Plasma who didn't beg quite loud enough or share quite enough information. Zaktan had dragged the Toa off. Less than two minutes later, the Piraka leader returned alone. Whenu Avak went to check the situation, all he could find of the Toa were bits of armor, a mask that looked half-devoured, and puddles of something Avak preferred not to try and identify.

A Toa of Plasma is also in Dark Mirror (in an alternate universe, but still; it's in chapter 8):

Kojol fell next, his armor crushed by the Toa's power and his essence incinerated by a Toa of Plasma.

Apparently no pronouns.

Well there we go, there's our opening. Can someone on the LMB petition Greg to make Plasma female then?

At this point, I'm afraid to ask in fear that he gender locks the element to male, but at the same time, I do want to push for a female Plasma element.

 

Edit: And if we do ask him, we can't just ask him what gender it is - we would need to say why we would want it to be changed, and propose that he canonise it as female.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Black Six

[Grungemeister]

I like where this is going now. Why retcon something that's already canon when we can canonize something that's not? 

[Regitnui]

A female plasma tribe would be a good way to differentiate the Su-Matoran from the Ta-Matoran. Make them Gender Counterparts. It would also make sense in that Plasma is an inherently destructive element, even more so than fire, so you'd want a calmer, less angry template for the elemental beings. Not to gender stereotype, but that was also the reasoning behind Psionics being made female, after (should-be-discontinuity) Male Psionics Toa (Orde).

Edited May 14, 2015 by Regitnui

[fishers64]

The male psionics Toa was Orde. Varian was a psionics Toa, but she was a proper female.

[Regitnui]

The male psionics Toa was Orde. Varian was a psionics Toa, but she was a proper female.

Thanks, Fishers. Post edited. I can never keep them straight.

[Grungemeister]

A female plasma tribe would be a good way to differentiate the Su-Matoran from the Ta-Matoran. Make them Gender Counterparts. It would also make sense in that Plasma is an inherently destructive element, even more so than fire, so you'd want a calmer, less angry template for the elemental beings. Not to gender stereotype, but that was also the reasoning behind Psionics being made female, after (should-be-discontinuity) Male Psionics Toa (Orde).

Yes, I agree with this. Someone around here mentioned something like that, that there should be an opposite gender counterpart for every element. The "calmer" element is the female one. I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but here's the list. Ones with asterisks can't be genderswapped, since they're canon.

Ice=Water

Fire=Plasma

Air=Plantlife*

Earth=Gravity*

Stone=Iron*

And then I though of two more that actually work.

Magnetism=Lightning (forces rather than actual elements)

Sonics=Psionics (referring to senses and mental states)

[Irrie]

 

A female plasma tribe would be a good way to differentiate the Su-Matoran from the Ta-Matoran. Make them Gender Counterparts. It would also make sense in that Plasma is an inherently destructive element, even more so than fire, so you'd want a calmer, less angry template for the elemental beings. Not to gender stereotype, but that was also the reasoning behind Psionics being made female, after (should-be-discontinuity) Male Psionics Toa (Orde).

Yes, I agree with this. Someone around here mentioned something like that, that there should be an opposite gender counterpart for every element. The "calmer" element is the female one. I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but here's the list. Ones with asterisks can't be genderswapped, since they're canon.

Ice=Water

Fire=Plasma

Air=Plantlife*

Earth=Gravity*

Stone=Iron*

And then I though of two more that actually work.

Magnetism=Lightning (forces rather than actual elements)

Sonics=Psionics (referring to senses and mental states)

 

I would combine Plantlife with Water because plants are comprised of a large percentage of water, and the only similarity between Air and Plantlife is that some plants can perform respiration. And that the Matoran wear green armor, but that's hardly a similarity element-wise. 

But then that would leave ice without a counterpart, so maybe it's not that good of an idea.

[Grungemeister]

 

 

A female plasma tribe would be a good way to differentiate the Su-Matoran from the Ta-Matoran. Make them Gender Counterparts. It would also make sense in that Plasma is an inherently destructive element, even more so than fire, so you'd want a calmer, less angry template for the elemental beings. Not to gender stereotype, but that was also the reasoning behind Psionics being made female, after (should-be-discontinuity) Male Psionics Toa (Orde).

Yes, I agree with this. Someone around here mentioned something like that, that there should be an opposite gender counterpart for every element. The "calmer" element is the female one. I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but here's the list. Ones with asterisks can't be genderswapped, since they're canon.

Ice=Water

Fire=Plasma

Air=Plantlife*

Earth=Gravity*

Stone=Iron*

And then I though of two more that actually work.

Magnetism=Lightning (forces rather than actual elements)

Sonics=Psionics (referring to senses and mental states)

 

I would combine Plantlife with Water because plants are comprised of a large percentage of water, and the only similarity between Air and Plantlife is that some plants can perform respiration. And that the Matoran wear green armor, but that's hardly a similarity element-wise. 

But then that would leave ice without a counterpart, so maybe it's not that good of an idea.

 

Plus, Le-Matoran on Mata Nui live in the jungle, so they're very close to nature.

[Petewa]

 

 

A female plasma tribe would be a good way to differentiate the Su-Matoran from the Ta-Matoran. Make them Gender Counterparts. It would also make sense in that Plasma is an inherently destructive element, even more so than fire, so you'd want a calmer, less angry template for the elemental beings. Not to gender stereotype, but that was also the reasoning behind Psionics being made female, after (should-be-discontinuity) Male Psionics Toa (Orde).

Yes, I agree with this. Someone around here mentioned something like that, that there should be an opposite gender counterpart for every element. The "calmer" element is the female one. I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but here's the list. Ones with asterisks can't be genderswapped, since they're canon.

Ice=Water

Fire=Plasma

Air=Plantlife*

Earth=Gravity*

Stone=Iron*

And then I though of two more that actually work.

Magnetism=Lightning (forces rather than actual elements)

Sonics=Psionics (referring to senses and mental states)

 

I would combine Plantlife with Water because plants are comprised of a large percentage of water, and the only similarity between Air and Plantlife is that some plants can perform respiration. And that the Matoran wear green armor, but that's hardly a similarity element-wise. 

But then that would leave ice without a counterpart, so maybe it's not that good of an idea.

 

Plantlife has always seemed like a cross between water and air to me.

[Irrie]

Plus, Le-Matoran on Mata Nui live in the jungle, so they're very close to nature.

 

 

I always wondered why that was. I figured that Le-Matoran would be more likely to like on a plains or somewhere that would have lots of wind. 

[Sybre]

 

Plus, Le-Matoran on Mata Nui live in the jungle, so they're very close to nature.

 

 

I always wondered why that was. I figured that Le-Matoran would be more likely to like on a plains or somewhere that would have lots of wind. 

 

I think the creators wanted to have some kind of wide environmental diversity to Mata Nui. Couldn't imagine why they picked a jungle for Le-Matoran, though.

[Grungemeister]

 

A female plasma tribe would be a good way to differentiate the Su-Matoran from the Ta-Matoran. Make them Gender Counterparts. It would also make sense in that Plasma is an inherently destructive element, even more so than fire, so you'd want a calmer, less angry template for the elemental beings. Not to gender stereotype, but that was also the reasoning behind Psionics being made female, after (should-be-discontinuity) Male Psionics Toa (Orde).

Yes, I agree with this. Someone around here mentioned something like that, that there should be an opposite gender counterpart for every element. The "calmer" element is the female one. I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but here's the list. Ones with asterisks can't be genderswapped, since they're canon.

Ice=Water

Fire=Plasma

Air=Plantlife*

Earth=Gravity*

Stone=Iron*

And then I though of two more that actually work.

Magnetism=Lightning (forces rather than actual elements)

Sonics=Psionics (referring to senses and mental states)

 

I couldn't find the original poster of this idea, but feel free to give yourself credit if it was you. 

 

 

 

Plus, Le-Matoran on Mata Nui live in the jungle, so they're very close to nature.

 

 

I always wondered why that was. I figured that Le-Matoran would be more likely to like on a plains or somewhere that would have lots of wind. 

 

I guess because they can run around and jump off of trees and stuff? In the Bohrok animations, we saw that Le-Matoran are in fact VERY athletic, so maybe they wanted a place where they could jump around and test their agility. Also, keep in mind that it was Turaga Matau who chose the location, and the jungle probably reminded him the most of Le-Metru.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

 

Plus, Le-Matoran on Mata Nui live in the jungle, so they're very close to nature.

 

 

I always wondered why that was. I figured that Le-Matoran would be more likely to like on a plains or somewhere that would have lots of wind. 

 

I guess because they can run around and jump off of trees and stuff? In the Bohrok animations, we saw that Le-Matoran are in fact VERY athletic, so maybe they wanted a place where they could jump around and test their agility. Also, keep in mind that it was Turaga Matau who chose the location, and the jungle probably reminded him the most of Le-Metru.

 

Huh, I guess I never noticed that.   If I had to pick a place that reminded me of home, it would probably be an inland cross between Po-Koro and the surface of Onu-Koro.

[Regitnui]

Don't hurt me for pointing out tha5 they did combine air and plant life in G2, in 'Jungle'.

 

But back to the topic. Shall we petition for female Su-Matoran?

[The 1st Shadow]

Don't hurt me for pointing out tha5 they did combine air and plant life in G2, in 'Jungle'.

 

But back to the topic. Shall we petition for female Su-Matoran?

Normally, I'm against retconning, but since this one was never properly established one way or the other...

 

LET'S DO IT!!

[SailorQuaoar]

How's this for a message?

 

"Hey Greg. A group of fans on BZPower have discovered that the element of Plasma has never been referred to with gendered pronouns in any official media, and thought it would be a good opportunity to have another female element.

 

If Plasma could be canonized as female we would be extremely grateful!"

 

reword if necessary.

Edited May 15, 2015 by SailorQuaoar

[Voxumo]

I still think a poll would be proper, just to see how many are actually wanting this identified. 

 

Though the wording for that is good, I would perhaps provide reasons for why this is needed, should he asks.

[Thormen]

If you're going to ask Greg to make Plasma a female element, you have to mention that he already said it was male in two previous answers and that you're asking him to retcon those answers. That's not just because I think it's improper to lead him to believe he hasn't said anything about this before, but also because his answer wouldn't stand if he weren't aware of that. Greg has said that if any of the answers he gives on the LMB contradicts previously established canon, the new answer should be discarded "except in really rare case which I can't conceive of right now" to use his own words. You're going to have to convince Greg that this is one of those rare cases.

 

Personally I'm against this by the way since I don't like retcons. I can understand that you would want more female representation in BIONICLE, I would like to see that as well and I don't like the genderlocked tribes either. I don't think we're forced to take the retcon route to ask Greg to do something about it though. If you want more female Toa, why don't you just ask Greg to confirm that Toa and Matoran of Water, Lightning and Psionics are overrepresented in BIONICLE to such a degree that they make up 50% of all Toa and Matoran? That way there's a 50/50 ratio between the genders and nothing has to be retconned. Or just ask him in general whether there's a 50/50 ratio between males and females in the MU and on Spherus Magna. I really don't see why it's necessary to even out the ratio in the number of tribes when it's possible to even it out in the number of people.

 

And for the record, I don't see the point of all of this anyway. Like I said I think BIONICLE would've been better if more female characters were introduced, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about introducing female nobodies. You want to change the gender of Toa we've never seen in the story, which makes for more females offscreen. That's not what female representation is about. Girls don't identify with nobodies, girls identify with characters. Boys don't develop respect for women from reading somewhere in an obscure place that there are women who never appeared in the story, they do so from reading about heroines, bad gals, female authority figures and all the other kinds of female characters you can have in a story. If you want to have that, either write a fanfic with female characters or petition the new story team to include more females in BIONICLE generation 2.

[Iku]

If you're going to ask Greg to make Plasma a female element, you have to mention that he already said it was male in two previous answers and that you're asking him to retcon those answers. That's not just because I think it's improper to lead him to believe he hasn't said anything about this before, but also because his answer wouldn't stand if he weren't aware of that. Greg has said that if any of the answers he gives on the LMB contradicts previously established canon, the new answer should be discarded "except in really rare case which I can't conceive of right now" to use his own words. You're going to have to convince Greg that this is one of those rare cases.

 

Personally I'm against this by the way since I don't like retcons. I can understand that you would want more female representation in BIONICLE, I would like to see that as well and I don't like the genderlocked tribes either. I don't think we're forced to take the retcon route to ask Greg to do something about it though. If you want more female Toa, why don't you just ask Greg to confirm that Toa and Matoran of Water, Lightning and Psionics are overrepresented in BIONICLE to such a degree that they make up 50% of all Toa and Matoran? That way there's a 50/50 ratio between the genders and nothing has to be retconned. Or just ask him in general whether there's a 50/50 ratio between males and females in the MU and on Spherus Magna. I really don't see why it's necessary to even out the ratio in the number of tribes when it's possible to even it out in the number of people.

 

And for the record, I don't see the point of all of this anyway. Like I said I think BIONICLE would've been better if more female characters were introduced, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about introducing female nobodies. You want to change the gender of Toa we've never seen in the story, which makes for more females offscreen. That's not what female representation is about. Girls don't identify with nobodies, girls identify with characters. Boys don't develop respect for women from reading somewhere in an obscure place that there are women who never appeared in the story, they do so from reading about heroines, bad gals, female authority figures and all the other kinds of female characters you can have in a story. If you want to have that, either write a fanfic with female characters or petition the new story team to include more females in BIONICLE generation 2.

 

Point taken. Arguably, we could do both. Do you have any ideas as to who to contact for the current story team? For gen1, we had Greg, but for gen2, we don't exactly have a direct connection to the new story team.

 

I suppose creating a petition would get LEGO's attention. Before we do that, we'll probably have to discuss how we go about it - do we propose that they make certain protectors female, or would people not mind which protectors are female as long as x number of them are (so both us and LEGO have some wiggle room to negotiate)?

 

As for the Plasma element message, here's my take:

 

"Hey Greg. A group of fans on BZPower have discovered that the element of Plasma has never been referred to with gendered pronouns in any official media, and thought it would be a good opportunity to have another female element.

 

Previously, you stated:

 

Oct 8 2006, 10:00 AM

 

4) Which gender do the Toa of Gravity and the Toa of Plasma have?

 

 

4) I would tend to think they are both male.

 

Nov 12 2007, 12:10 PM

 

4. What gender are Toa of Sonics?

 

4b. Toa of Plasma?

 

4) Both are male.

 

However, as I have mentioned, in the written media, no gendered pronouns were used, so if Plasma could be canonized as female, we would be extremely grateful!

 

For reference, here are the passages in question:

Bionicle Legends (p37):

Quote

Then he remembered a night long ago, an island far to the south, and a Toa of Plasma who didn't beg quite loud enough or share quite enough information. Zaktan had dragged the Toa off. Less than two minutes later, the Piraka leader returned alone. Whenu Avak went to check the situation, all he could find of the Toa were bits of armor, a mask that looked half-devoured, and puddles of something Avak preferred not to try and identify.

Dark Mirror ( chapter 8):

Quote

Kojol fell next, his armor crushed by the Toa's power and his essence incinerated by a Toa of Plasma.

"

Edited May 15, 2015 by Iku

[Thormen]

Point taken. Arguably, we could do both. Do you have any ideas as to who to contact for the current story team? For gen1, we had Greg, but for gen2, we don't exactly have a direct connection to the new story team.

 

I suppose creating a petition would get LEGO's attention. Before we do that, we'll probably have to discuss how we go about it - do we propose that they make certain protectors female, or would people not mind which protectors are female as long as x number of them are (so both us and LEGO have some wiggle room to negotiate)?

There's no one at LEGO who has taken up the same role of 'intermediary' with the fanbase the way Greg did, and I don't think there will be anyone to do that because of LEGO's policy regarding talking to minors, since that's why Greg left BZP. We could always send something to LEGO's customer support or start a topic in the BIONICLE message boards on the LEGO site. The advantage of the message boards is that we can convincingly claim to gather support from all over the BIONICLE fanbase and not just from BZP, but the downside is that we're probably going to see a lot of "Eww, girls." posts and the topic might even be closed because of that.

 

I think there are two approaches we can take here: one is determining a very specific request (such as: could you make half the protectors female?) and gathering support for that. The plus side to this approach is that when LEGO sees that it has a lot of support, they know to a reasonable degree what to do to satisfy all the petitioners (e.g. making half the protectors female). The downside however is that the more specific we get, the less support we are likely to gather since there are more details people might disagree with (e.g. people who think there should be more female characters but still want the protectors to be male), and also that LEGO is more likely to shoot down something detailed since it is more likely to conflict with the stuff that's already in the story bible.

 

The other approach is making a vaguer request, along the lines of "Could there be more female characters in the story?". This has the advantage of being vague enough so that the most people can stand behind it and so that it can easily be made to work with the story bible, but the downside is that LEGO might find it too vague to be implementable.

 

We could mix these approaches as well, making the request kinda vague but still not totally vague, depending on what people think is likely to work.

 

As for the Plasma element message, here's my take:

 

"Hey Greg. A group of fans on BZPower have discovered that the element of Plasma has never been referred to with gendered pronouns in any official media, and thought it would be a good opportunity to have another female element.

 

Previously, you stated:

 

Oct 8 2006, 10:00 AM

 

4) Which gender do the Toa of Gravity and the Toa of Plasma have?

 

 

4) I would tend to think they are both male.

 

Nov 12 2007, 12:10 PM

 

4. What gender are Toa of Sonics?

 

4b. Toa of Plasma?

 

4) Both are male.

 

However, as I have mentioned, in the written media, no gendered pronouns were used, so if Plasma could be canonized as female, we would be extremely grateful!

 

For reference, here are the passages in question:

Bionicle Legends (p37):

Quote

Then he remembered a night long ago, an island far to the south, and a Toa of Plasma who didn't beg quite loud enough or share quite enough information. Zaktan had dragged the Toa off. Less than two minutes later, the Piraka leader returned alone. Whenu Avak went to check the situation, all he could find of the Toa were bits of armor, a mask that looked half-devoured, and puddles of something Avak preferred not to try and identify.

Dark Mirror ( chapter 8):

 

Quote

Kojol fell next, his armor crushed by the Toa's power and his essence incinerated by a Toa of Plasma.

"

 

I'd like you to also mention that not everyone agrees with this, Liuth and I have explicitly said this in this thread but we don't know who else thinks this way. Maxim and Voxumo suggested doing a poll, that would give us an idea of what people think about this proposal.

[fishers64]

I'm not a fan of it for the same reason I mentioned for the Bo-Matoran: I wrote a fanfic with a male Toa of Plasma and a male Turaga of Plasma, and I think that it is better as a male element as a result.

 

I can imagine a female Bo-Matoran, and having that element bi-gendered seems reasonable. But Plasma seems the type of thing that you'd want guys handling - I'm hopelessly biased and attached to that characterization that I wrote.

 

That's the problem with these sort of retcons - I wrote that story to be "canon-fit" in some ways, and I wrote that character to abide by the correct gender rules. I can see why you'd want this, but it's still frustrating to moi.

[SailorQuaoar]

But fishers, Plasma was never referred to with any gender in official canon.

That does not automatically mean it's male.

 

Also, I don't think we need to put the Greg quote from 2006 in the proposal (he's probably forgotten about it by now). Just use the passages that prove Plasma has no pronouns used for it.

[maxim21]

But fishers, Plasma was never referred to with any gender in official canon.

There is something you don't seem to understand: Greg's answers are official canon, even when they were made on BZP. Edited May 15, 2015 by maxim21

[SailorQuaoar]

 

But fishers, Plasma was never referred to with any gender in official canon.

There is something you don't seem to understand: Greg's answers are official canon, even when they were made on BZP.

 

Greg isn't going to remember a single statement he made 10 years ago. We should be able to get this canonized without a lot of trouble.

 

If it needs a justification "Plasma's power is more dangerous and destructive than Fire, so the Great Beings thought that the gentler nature of females would be able to control its energies more effectively than males."

[Regitnui]

Wait, Quaoar, are you doing this because it'll redress the gender balance somewhat, or so you can point to the Su-Matoran page on BS01 and say 'I did that'? If the former, it'd be wise to put up a poll first, so we can at least get an idea of how much support this idea has. It's pointless asking Greg to retrocanonize something only two or three people think is worth it.

[SailorQuaoar]

Wait, Quaoar, are you doing this because it'll redress the gender balance somewhat, or so you can point to the Su-Matoran page on BS01 and say 'I did that'? If the former, it'd be wise to put up a poll first, so we can at least get an idea of how much support this idea has. It's pointless asking Greg to retrocanonize something only two or three people think is worth it.

The first reason (to slightly improve the gender ratio). I don't really care about BS01.

 

I tried to add a poll to this topic 3 times but it didn't go through. Can someone who is a premium member do it?

[The 1st Shadow]

Wait, Quaoar, are you doing this because it'll redress the gender balance somewhat, or so you can point to the Su-Matoran page on BS01 and say 'I did that'? If the former, it'd be wise to put up a poll first, so we can at least get an idea of how much support this idea has. It's pointless asking Greg to retrocanonize something only two or three people think is worth it.

It's the former. I was the one who brought up Plasma in the first place, so if anyone were to claim it, it'd be me. No, we're just doing it because it's worth a try.

 

EDIT: Kapura'd by the Sailor.

 

But you're probably right, in that a poll would help. Whoever sets it up needs to give clear descriptions of the options, though. I can do it in a little while, if need be.

Edited May 15, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[Grungemeister]

I'm totally for proposing Plasma as female. But not Plantlife, since it's already canonically male. 

[Thormen]

Sailor, whether something is canon or not doesn't depend on what Greg remembers about previous answers he has given. Those answers were given, they are a part of canon now even if he doesn't exactly remember what he said back then. So even if you were to succeed in tricking Greg in thinking that he hasn't given the gender of Plasma before (and I must add again that I am very strongly against trying to trick him), it still wouldn't be canon because he made it a rule that if an old answer already exists on the question, it should stand and not the new answer. Your only chance is telling him you want this retconned and telling him why.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Sailor, whether something is canon or not doesn't depend on what Greg remembers about previous answers he has given. Those answers were given, they are a part of canon now even if he doesn't exactly remember what he said back then. So even if you were to succeed in tricking Greg in thinking that he hasn't given the gender of Plasma before (and I must add again that I am very strongly against trying to trick him), it still wouldn't be canon because he made it a rule that if an old answer already exists on the question, it should stand and not the new answer. Your only chance is telling him you want this retconned and telling him why.

 

i dunno, he has said, like, five different things about the fate of pahrak-kal, so i feel it is fair to question his judgement (or memory...) sometimes. :t

[SailorQuaoar]

Sailor, whether something is canon or not doesn't depend on what Greg remembers about previous answers he has given. Those answers were given, they are a part of canon now even if he doesn't exactly remember what he said back then. So even if you were to succeed in tricking Greg in thinking that he hasn't given the gender of Plasma before (and I must add again that I am very strongly against trying to trick him), it still wouldn't be canon because he made it a rule that if an old answer already exists on the question, it should stand and not the new answer. Your only chance is telling him you want this retconned and telling him why.

Ok so let me get this straight.

 

My original proposal was to change the gender of Plantlife (because of the typo, it having blue in its color scheme, as well as it being a "nurturing" element) but apparently it's already been published and so would require a retcon.

 

So then T1S comes in and says "hey Plasma wasn't referred to by any pronouns in canon, so it would be able to be canonized as female"

So i was like "yeah if that's easier, let's go with Plasma"

But then someone digs up a 9-year old post from Greg that "proves" Plasma is male, and would also require a retcon.

 

So if both Plasma and Plantlife would requite retcons, then why can't we switch back to Plantlife?

 

This seems unnecessarily complex.

[Irrie]

Greg has typically been more likely to alter canon (or in this case an answer from him from almost a decade ago) if a large number of the fans want it (romance probably being the exception to this). 

This is why I think that we should set up a poll for making Plasma female. If we show him the statistics, and assuming that it's a large turnout with a large number of people voting 'yes', then I would be surprised if he didn't make it so.

After we do that, then people could try to make The Green female. It's best to address Plasma first since it's the only one that doesn't have canon contradicting it like The Green does (even though it's just one little gender pronoun, but whatever). 

[Grungemeister]

 

Sailor, whether something is canon or not doesn't depend on what Greg remembers about previous answers he has given. Those answers were given, they are a part of canon now even if he doesn't exactly remember what he said back then. So even if you were to succeed in tricking Greg in thinking that he hasn't given the gender of Plasma before (and I must add again that I am very strongly against trying to trick him), it still wouldn't be canon because he made it a rule that if an old answer already exists on the question, it should stand and not the new answer. Your only chance is telling him you want this retconned and telling him why.

Ok so let me get this straight.

 

My original proposal was to change the gender of Plantlife (because of the typo, it having blue in its color scheme, as well as it being a "nurturing" element) but apparently it's already been published and so would require a retcon.

 

So then T1S comes in and says "hey Plasma wasn't referred to by any pronouns in canon, so it would be able to be canonized as female"

So i was like "yeah if that's easier, let's go with Plasma"

But then someone digs up a 9-year old post from Greg that "proves" Plasma is male, and would also require a retcon.

 

So if both Plasma and Plantlife would requite retcons, then why can't we switch back to Plantlife?

 

This seems unnecessarily complex.

 

Toa of Plantlife: referred to as "he", "him" etc. in a book

Toa of Plasma: nothing. Nothing would be going against established canon.

[Dorek]

This seems unnecessarily complex.

If you're looking for "easy", I think your best option is just to headcanon it rather than force the issue

 

That said, generally speaking we tend to take previous Greg answers over newer ones if they contradict, simply because the answers were made a time where he was more invested, thinking critically, and hadn't perhaps forgotten some component that would otherwise influence the outcome. This isn't a perfect rule, and there's room for ambiguity; in this instance, Plasma would be a better choice because the answer of them being male exists "only" in the relatively nebulous world of Greg answers, so I could see it being changeable (and would be amenable to the change myself).

 

Both are going to require a retcon, regardless of the outcome. Your goal is now more political than anything else: what kind of change are people most okay with, and how can you convince them of it?

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

I'm just going to throw in my two cents on the issue: I do support an effort to retcon Plasma as female, as it has not appeared in any story media. But I feel that in the interests of equitably gathering the opinions of everyone (who cares to vote), polling first is a necessity. And, if that poll comes out saying that the majority of fans would prefer it left male, we'll have to drop the effort, or the poll was absolutely pointless and the outcome unfair. (I'm guessing this is pretty obvious to everyone, but I'm pointing it out just to be sure)

[Klack]

How about I just create the pole, then? What's all the fuss?

[Irrie]

How about I just create the pole, then? What's all the fuss?

If you want to, go ahead. The only reason why it hasn't already is because of our good old friend, the bystander effect. 

Edited May 16, 2015 by The Irrational Rock

[Klack]

 

How about I just create the pole, then? What's all the fuss?

If you want to, go ahead. The only reason why it hasn't already is because of our good old friend, the bystander effect. 

 

Will it count as a dupe topic?

[fishers64]

No, since this one is about plantlife's gender. Go!