Plantlife's gender

[Dorek]

When did Greg (or anyone from the story team) claim that plantlife was originally female? I must have missed something...

 

-NotS

As far as I know, never, it was just one of those rumors that popped up. Plantlife Toa are very obviously identified as male in the books (well, book) so if we're throwing that out for whatever reason (sorry, "oh the Piraka were just being ignorant" reaaaally doesn't cut it) we might as well give up on whatever loose semblance we're calling the G1 canon.

[fishers64]

When did Greg (or anyone from the story team) claim that plantlife was originally female? I must have missed something...

 

-NotS

 

4. I heard that in BL4 there was a Toa of "Flora"(control plantlife) and she was female. Is it right?

 

 

4) Yes

 

 

Bang. 

 

And then: 

 

Sep 13 2006, 08:15 PM

 

 

SOME CLARIFICATION ON THE TOA OF FLORA/PLANTS/WHATEVER YA WANNA CALL IT.

i heard this:

 

4. I heard that in BL4 there was a Toa of "Flora"(control plantlife) and she was female. Is it right?

 

 

 

4)yes

then this:

 

Actually, the Toa of Plants is male - BL4 repeatedly refers to that Toa as "he" and "him".

1.is this new toa male or female?

 

1) Male

 

2.is it called toa of plants or toa of flora?

 

2) I refer to him as "Toa of the Green"

 

i thank you. 

 

Oct 4 2006, 10:36 PM

 

1. Is the toa that controls plantlife a male or female? 1b. Are all toa of that kind the same gender?

 

1) Male, and yes

That was resolved quickly.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

Anyway, I support the idea, if not for plantlife since that would be an unnecessary retcon. I keep meaning to go back and see if plasma or gravity have been defined; gravity probably has, but plasma might be doable.

Neither has appeared in story enough. The Piraka once discussed a Toa of Plasma that Zaktan supposedly killed (Avak surveyed the scene afterwards and found bits of melted armor, a mask, and puddles of stuff he didn't want to identify), but I don't recall if the Toa's gender was mentioned. 

 

In Time Trap, Lariska had been sent on a mission that pitted her against a Toa of Gravity, so she and TSO were discussing that. There was mention of a Ba-Matoran village in Reign of Shadows (Mazeka and Teridax returning from the Melding). I don't recall the genders being mentioned here, either.

 

 

I'm all for more equal gender ratios (I headcanon mixed-gender elements), but Gravity has in fact been specified male, in No One Gets Left Behind.

 

Their leader, a grizzled Toa of Gravity, had initially refused the request, but after much negotiation, allowed her to try. Rumor has it that she had used her powers to make him "see" her point of view, but neither of them could afford to admit it.

 

Greg has probably specified it somewhere along the line as well, but I don't have any of those quotes on me.

[Munty]

Seems the Fikou party for canonisation strikes again

 

This all seems absolutely unnecessary and unfounded. I know a lot of people here have trouble getting their heads around the screwy gender ratio but is it really so bad as to require all this desperate clutching at straws?

 

Let's discuss the gender issue by all means, I'm pretty sure the majority of the members here have some personal opinions on it and even headcanon their own divisions. But we're talking about asking Greg to retcon something completely unnecessary and for what reason?

 

Sorry but this seems crazy to me. Especially since gender serves ZERO purpose in Bionicle to start with...

[Grungemeister]

 

I think plantlife could also work either way, but since the gender ratio is skewed, plantlife could easily be a female-only element. The ratio isn't VERY skewed, though. I think someone around here did the math and it was something like 1.33 to 1.

I'd be very curious to see that math, because the main six elements are more common than other elements, so if it's based on total population, that doesn't sound accurate.

 

Anyways, I'd vote for this.

 

Sorry dude, I looked everywhere and I couldn't find it   . Some thread somewhere, someone did the math based on estimates and other stuff. Granted, I'm pretty sure it was a ratio of the ENTIRE MU, so there were a couple of factors that made it more equal (ie, they guessed that there were more female Vortixx and this was before many of the female Makuta were killed.)

[The 1st Shadow]

I'm all for more equal gender ratios (I headcanon mixed-gender elements), but Gravity has in fact been specified male, in No One Gets Left Behind.

 

Their leader, a grizzled Toa of Gravity, had initially refused the request, but after much negotiation, allowed her to try. Rumor has it that she had used her powers to make him "see" her point of view, but neither of them could afford to admit it.

 

Greg has probably specified it somewhere along the line as well, but I don't have any of those quotes on me.

 

First of all, check the source. That was written by a fan for a contest or something and approved by Greg. Greg gimself only stated OUTSIDE of story (far as I know) that Gravity is male. Shadow-Nui, the writer of that story, followed that out-of-story statement. So, unless it was in that Time Trap scene, no official media has defined the gender of Gravity.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

I'm all for more equal gender ratios (I headcanon mixed-gender elements), but Gravity has in fact been specified male, in No One Gets Left Behind.

 

Their leader, a grizzled Toa of Gravity, had initially refused the request, but after much negotiation, allowed her to try. Rumor has it that she had used her powers to make him "see" her point of view, but neither of them could afford to admit it.

 

Greg has probably specified it somewhere along the line as well, but I don't have any of those quotes on me.

 

First of all, check the source. That was written by a fan for a contest or something and approved by Greg. Greg gimself only stated OUTSIDE of story (far as I know) that Gravity is male. Shadow-Nui, the writer of that story, followed that out-of-story statement. So, unless it was in that Time Trap scene, no official media has defined the gender of Gravity.

 

 

What do you mean by check the source? Wasn't it canonized as part of a Greg-approved contest, and thus very much official, regardless of the fact that if was fan-created? Admittedly, I'm a bit confused, and some clarification would be appreciated.

 

And even if it isn't canon, if Greg made an out-of-story statement, doesn't that stand regardless of whether or not it was ever featured in-story? Or am I missing something about that too? Like I said, I don't have a quote. I was just bringing up what I thought was a canon mention of a male Toa of Gravity.

[Voxumo]

Seems the Fikou party for canonisation strikes again

 

This all seems absolutely unnecessary and unfounded. I know a lot of people here have trouble getting their heads around the screwy gender ratio but is it really so bad as to require all this desperate clutching at straws?

 

Let's discuss the gender issue by all means, I'm pretty sure the majority of the members here have some personal opinions on it and even headcanon their own divisions. But we're talking about asking Greg to retcon something completely unnecessary and for what reason?

 

Sorry but this seems crazy to me. Especially since gender serves ZERO purpose in Bionicle to start with...

You aren't alone on the 'this feels unnecessary and unfounded' front. As I said earlier, this doesn't feel so much like trying to get something canonized but to just appease a part of the fanbase. I mean call me crazy but in recent times it seems like greg would canonize alot, and I think that's partially because he's likely at the point where he is fed up with the constant canonization questions. I mean if you look at some of his responses to recent canonization questions the tone is practically 'Fine sure, do whatever'. But I derail from my intended purpose of this post.

 

While I can see that the gender ratio is very skewed, even though gender doesn't really matter in MU, and that the place it does matter they made the gender ratio more realistic, aka spherus magna, but my question is, Did having such a skewed gender ratio ruin the story for anyone when they were of proper age to not try and overthink everything in the bionicle story? Given enough time anyone will find something wrong with any story. I mean I personally can't say the gender ratio ruined the story for me, or that I even cared to notice, especially since it's just a made up story to go along with bits of plastic.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

we might as well give up on whatever loose semblance we're calling the G1 canon.

 

 

this is the best Idea i've heard all topic, let's call greg about making it happen.

 

Did having such a skewed gender ratio ruin the story for anyone when they were of proper age to not try and overthink everything in the bionicle story?

 

Yes, yes it did. a lot.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[SailorQuaoar]

Wow I didn't expect all these positive responses!

 

I noticed that there's a bit of an argument over whether Plantlife was really intended to be female or not. I suppose we'll never find out for sure, but consider this:

 

All the confirmed female elements have blue in their color scheme. Water is blue, Lightning is blue and white, and Psionics is blue and gold. Guess what the official colors for Plantlife are? That's right, blue and green.

The only male element that has blue in its color scheme is Ice, and even then it's only light blue.

 

And yes it might seem like a minor thing to want to change, but so are pretty much all the other things that have gotten canonized within the last few years.

But I think it would mean a lot to a good chunk of the Bionicle fanbase.

 

A few other people have suggested making every MU element male and female. But that would be way too drastic of a change, I wouldn't expect that to seriously become canon.

I suggested Plantlife because it has precedent for being female, it has blue in its color scheme, and there would be no named characters that would have to be genderbent.

The unnamed Bo-Toa that Hakann takes out doesn't count, because he wasn't an actual character. The same with the Plantlife Toa on Lhikan's team.

[Voxumo]

I'm sorry, but just because that character doesn't have a name, doesn't mean he isn't an actual character. 

 

Also do you actually believe that Greg would retcon something that is stated in an actual form of media? I mean many of the canonizations are things that were left so vague that it could be canonized without harming the story or affecting anything drastically, or were never really confirmed nor denied. The gender associated with Plantlife has been confirmed, in official media, aka Legacy of Evil. To change the gender of Plantlife would make that section of the book obsolete, and you may argue that it is such a small part that it doesn't matter, but it's still a part.

[SailorQuaoar]

I'm sorry, but just because that character doesn't have a name, doesn't mean he isn't an actual character. 

 

Also do you actually believe that Greg would retcon something that is stated in an actual form of media? I mean many of the canonizations are things that were left so vague that it could be canonized without harming the story or affecting anything drastically, or were never really confirmed nor denied. The gender associated with Plantlife has been confirmed, in official media, aka Legacy of Evil. To change the gender of Plantlife would make that section of the book obsolete, and you may argue that it is such a small part that it doesn't matter, but it's still a part.

The Bo-Toa had no name, no personality, no described appearance. He was guarding the Makoki stone and got taken out by Hakann. If the character was female none of that would change.

 

Bionicle has plenty of male characters. And if plantlife's gender was changed, there would still be a majority of male characters in the Bionicle universe. I would never expect Bionicle to be gender equal, bu this is just making it a teeny tiny bit better.

 

There are 12 elements in total. If Plantlife became female, 4 out of 12 would be female, or 1/3 of Matoran.

 

If the name of Lessovikk's team mattered, and making a polybag set the official appearance of Turaga Lhikan mattered, and a fusion of spider Rahi mattered, then the gender of one element certainly does as well.

[Voxumo]

 

I'm sorry, but just because that character doesn't have a name, doesn't mean he isn't an actual character. 

 

Also do you actually believe that Greg would retcon something that is stated in an actual form of media? I mean many of the canonizations are things that were left so vague that it could be canonized without harming the story or affecting anything drastically, or were never really confirmed nor denied. The gender associated with Plantlife has been confirmed, in official media, aka Legacy of Evil. To change the gender of Plantlife would make that section of the book obsolete, and you may argue that it is such a small part that it doesn't matter, but it's still a part.

The Bo-Toa had no name, no personality, no described appearance. He was guarding the Makoki stone and got taken out by Hakann. If the character was female none of that would change.

 

Bionicle has plenty of male characters. And if plantlife's gender was changed, there would still be a majority of male characters in the Bionicle universe. I would never expect Bionicle to be gender equal, bu this is just making it a teeny tiny bit better.

 

There are 12 elements in total. If Plantlife became female, 4 out of 12 would be female, or 1/3 of Matoran.

 

If the name of Lessovikk's team mattered, and making a polybag set the official appearance of Turaga Lhikan mattered, and a fusion of spider Rahi mattered, then the gender of one element certainly does as well.

 

While those are minor indeed, you are talking about changing the gender of an entire race of characters. Call me crazy but when you target a whole race, or whatever you want to call the different elements, that's a little bit more important.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Did u kno?

 

the gender of a one-off prop character greg had the Piraka violently thrash to get to a treasure-reward doesn't define the gender of that character's entire people?

 

now you do! :U

[Petewa]

I don't think it would affect the story much, and I'm pretty sure that one guy wouldn't need genderbent either, if it's not natural for an element to be anything but one gender, then there would probably be at least one "unnatural" occurrence.

[Sharnak the Bohrok Lord]

 

Did u kno?

 

the gender of a one-off prop character greg had the Piraka violently thrash to get to a treasure-reward doesn't define the gender of that character's entire people?

 

now you do! :U

 

 

Except that it's a rule in G1 that tribes were gender-locked. Av-Matoran are the exception to the rule as they were intended to be unique and special. (That and a Toa Psionics, which was kind of dumb IMO.) Like it or not, it's how the MU works.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Sharnak the Bohrok Lord

[Petewa]

Except that it's a rule in G1 that tribes were gender-locked. Av-Matoran are the exception to the rule as they were intended to be unique and special. (That and a Toa Psionics, which was kind of dumb IMO.) Like it or not, it's how the MU works.

I'm suggesting the Psionics Toa was an unnatural occurrence as well.

[Voxumo]

 

Except that it's a rule in G1 that tribes were gender-locked. Av-Matoran are the exception to the rule as they were intended to be unique and special. (That and a Toa Psionics, which was kind of dumb IMO.) Like it or not, it's how the MU works.

I'm suggesting the Psionics Toa was an unnatural occurrence as well.

 

Thing is it wasn't an unnatural occurrence. It was purposeful by the great beings, and when they realized they messed up instead of destroying their creation they allowed it to live.. Unnatural occurrence would imply it was never meant to happen, and Orde was clearly created that way.

[Grungemeister]

Did u kno?

 

the gender of a one-off prop character greg had the Piraka violently thrash to get to a treasure-reward doesn't define the gender of that character's entire people?

 

now you do! :U

HO BOY YOU GAVE ME A GRAND IDEA

 

Here's how were gonna settle this: the one Toa that the Piraka killed? A guy. The rest of the Bo-Everything? Female. Why? Because Orde did it. Maybe, like Orde, Plantlife was conceived as a male element, but them bad things happened and it became a female element. I don't care if it's already happened as a freak occurrence once in story, that's my new headcanon. 

 

NINJA'D WHOA you guys thought of what I just said in the amount of time it took me to type that 

Edited May 11, 2015 by Toa Vanson

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

Did u kno?

 

the gender of a one-off prop character greg had the Piraka violently thrash to get to a treasure-reward doesn't define the gender of that character's entire people?

 

now you do! :U

 

 

Except that it's a rule in G1 that tribes were gender-locked. Av-Matoran are the exception to the rule as they were intended to be unique and special. (That and a Toa Psionics, which was kind of dumb IMO.) Like it or not, it's how the MU works.

 

 

it's how the MU works... except for when it's convenient! funny how the first psion toa we meet is a guy, after it's said they're an all-female tribe... hmmm, kinda makes it seem like it's not how the MU works, doesn't it? kinda makes it look like monogender tribes can be broken if you're introducing a male character for a previously female tribe, hmmmmmmmm....

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Okay, this is getting a little silly.

 

The idea to retcon for "better gender representation" feels like a lazy way out and not meaningful in the least. It literally changes nothing and just adds confusion and pleases only a mere handful of fans. 

 

The proposal that the Toa could have been like Orde sounds too convenient and, again, pointless considering this Toa does not, and will not, have a future important appearance that would warrant such a confusing backstory.

 

I'm okay with wanting canonization for names, masks, weapons... but retcons I'm 100% against.

 

-NotS

Edited May 11, 2015 by Nidhiki of the Shadows

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Okay, this is getting a little silly.

 

The idea to retcon for "better gender representation" feels like a lazy way out and not meaningful in the least. It literally changes nothing and only just adds confusion and pleases a mere handful of fans. .

 

(a lazy way out like how defaulting to "he" is a lazy way out of equal gender representation, and was why the tribes were gender-locked to begin with? :T)

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

(a lazy way out like how defaulting to "he" is a lazy way out of equal gender representation, and was why the tribes were gender-locked to begin with? :T)

 

Gender-locking was stupid but it's been an established rule of the canon since forever. Adhering to that rule is not a "lazy-way" out. Saying "Oh, even though we've kept to the same rules for the last 14 years, to make gender representation more equal we're going to retcon an entire elemental race just to appease the small handful of fans who seem to go crazy over this (apparent) 'typo'" is lazy.

 

It doesn't solve anything other than satisfy people looking for more females in Bionicle. Does it change the story in a meaningful way? No. Will it make the core story of Bionicle less male dominated? No. 

 

-NotS

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I'm just sayin, the way that pleases the largest number of bionicle fans with the least retcon is the complete and utter obliteration of the tribe-gendering scheme, I don't write the statistics, I just read 'em. :u

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

I'm all for more equal gender ratios (I headcanon mixed-gender elements), but Gravity has in fact been specified male, in No One Gets Left Behind.

 

Their leader, a grizzled Toa of Gravity, had initially refused the request, but after much negotiation, allowed her to try. Rumor has it that she had used her powers to make him "see" her point of view, but neither of them could afford to admit it.

 

Greg has probably specified it somewhere along the line as well, but I don't have any of those quotes on me.

 

First of all, check the source. That was written by a fan for a contest or something and approved by Greg. Greg gimself only stated OUTSIDE of story (far as I know) that Gravity is male. Shadow-Nui, the writer of that story, followed that out-of-story statement. So, unless it was in that Time Trap scene, no official media has defined the gender of Gravity.

 

 

What do you mean by check the source? Wasn't it canonized as part of a Greg-approved contest, and thus very much official, regardless of the fact that if was fan-created? Admittedly, I'm a bit confused, and some clarification would be appreciated.

 

And even if it isn't canon, if Greg made an out-of-story statement, doesn't that stand regardless of whether or not it was ever featured in-story? Or am I missing something about that too? Like I said, I don't have a quote. I was just bringing up what I thought was a canon mention of a male Toa of Gravity.

 

I meant exactly what I said. That piece was not written by Greg--it was written by a fan, and the EVENTS that transpired are canon. Prior to the writing of NOGLB, Greg had stated that he saw Gravity as a male element, and the writer of that story went off of that. 

 

And yes, if Greg stated it, it should be canon. However, since he never did anything with the Gravity element, it's one thing that could be retconned, and it wouldn't change a thing in any official story source. Clear?

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I'm just sayin, the way that pleases the largest number of bionicle fans with the least retcon is the complete and utter obliteration of the tribe-gendering scheme, I don't write the statistics, I just read 'em. :u

 

 

Oh it would've, at least back when Bionicle G1 was still going. A retcon now won't do anything because the story has come and gone with the gender-locking rules in place. Simply retconning the rules won't change that. 

 

-NotS

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

I'm just sayin, the way that pleases the largest number of bionicle fans with the least retcon is the complete and utter obliteration of the tribe-gendering scheme, I don't write the statistics, I just read 'em. :u

 

 

Oh it would've, at least back when Bionicle G1 was still going. A retcon now won't do anything because the story has come and gone with the gender-locking rules in place. Simply retconning the rules won't change that. 

 

-NotS

 

 

I mean, like, was "gender is locked per tribe" even said in-story? I don't recall that being a thing, it was just... assumed since all the water ones were the only girls that tribes were an either/or situation. (also maybe greg saying stuff on the side, but that's not even in-story...)

[SailorQuaoar]

I just checked BS01, and Gravity's gender isn't specified, T1S was right.

 

((What if we got both Gravity and Plantlife as female elements))

 

 

I'm just sayin, the way that pleases the largest number of bionicle fans with the least retcon is the complete and utter obliteration of the tribe-gendering scheme, I don't write the statistics, I just read 'em. :u

 

 

Oh it would've, at least back when Bionicle G1 was still going. A retcon now won't do anything because the story has come and gone with the gender-locking rules in place. Simply retconning the rules won't change that. 

 

-NotS

 

 

I mean, like, was "gender is locked per tribe" even said in-story? I don't recall that being a thing, it was just... assumed since all the water ones were the only girls that tribes were an either/or situation. (also maybe greg saying stuff on the side, but that's not even in-story...)

 

BS01 states for every element except Gravity "All Matoran, Toa, and Turaga of (element) were (gender)." So yeah, all Matoran elements were mono-gender.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

BS01 states for every element except Gravity "All Matoran, Toa, and Turaga of (element) were (gender)." So yeah, all Matoran elements were mono-gender.

 

I kinda meant, like, it wasn't stated 'cept by [gendered marketing] common occurrence and word of god [greg outside canon] so it really had no business being taken as complete and utter canon in the first place. :0

[Naota Takizawa]

I visited BS01 and it said all gravity matoran, toa and turaga are male.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Liuth

[Munty]

Why is this still an ongoing debate? How is it that the few supporters of this unnecessary ret-con haven't seen sense yet? I just cannot help myself but quote this...

 

I'm just sayin, the way that pleases the largest number of bionicle fans with the least retcon is the complete and utter obliteration of the tribe-gendering scheme, I don't write the statistics, I just read 'em. :u

 

You mean like the actual, real canon story? Hands up who's happy with the Gen 1 story the way it is? Oh, pretty much everyone... So the least amount of ret-cons needed would be ZERO! We do not need to change anything in order to make more people happy. There are very few people who want this to change and everyone else is happy to just accept it the way it is and move on so why don't we? 

 

Gender-locked tribes are stupid but it's just pretty much always been that way so nothing we cna do will change it. Much as I hate using the 'word of Greg' clause, this is one occasion on which I'm happy to cite it. The entire story was written in this mono-gender way. There is no reproduction and therefore no genitalia so what is actually the difference between the males and females? It's certainly not a sexist division as Gali is never shown to be less powerful or competent than the 'masculine' toa. In fact it's Lewa who get's messed up by the Krana and Tahu with the infected mask, Gali seems to avoid both situations making her a very strong capable character. 

 

Essentially, EVERY single being in the Matoran Universe (not on SM I guess) is completely free of gender. They are neither male nor female. Not masculine or feminine. No ding-dongs or jubblies... But that leaves it as impossible for us to relate to them. They could be said to be asexsual for example as they do not suffer any form of gender specific attraction. Seeing as we can't define their gender though perhaps they are androgynous beings in that they do not relate exclusively to either masculine or feminine traits. Perhaps they have neither, perhaps they have both.

 

Physically there is quite literally no real world term for WHAT the inhabitants of the MU are. We're looking at a sentient lifeform with no means of reproduction. Fairly obviously no such thing exists on earth as they would die out after a single generation. In this sense the Matoran and Tao living in the GSR can be thought of as clones or robots as when they 'die' they are simply rebuilt/repaired/revived by the red star. Av Matoran become Bohrok who in actual fact ARE machines.

 

Perhaps the most sensible course of action would be to realise that gender bears no significance to the world of Bionicle AT ALL as they are all in essence sentient robotic beings. They may have living tissue as well but they don't have it where it counts and therefore are non-gender beings. The only reason there is a 'female' tribe is because it was good for marketing to girls. Frankly though, that was the franchise's biggest mistake (though not in terms of revenue I imagine!) By introducing a single female character to the universe, Lego opened the doors to ridiculous questions and speculation like this. Now we're 14 years down the line and STILL there are people asking why the gender ratio is skewed when there is essentially NO GENDER AT ALL! 

 

Take a step back, have a think about what you determine to be male/female definitions. Then go and read up on transgender, bi-gender and genderqueer. Then try and once again define what is male and what is female. Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions. If you can still define a binary gender system while adhering to all of that knowing what you now know about how complicated an issue gender is even when we DO have sexual identities then please, tell us all about it.

 

If however you can no longer define a bi-gender system in a world without love, sex, romance or genitals please stop trying to attach this unnecessary label to characters and situations it simply does not apply to. 

 

Is Plantlife female? No.

 

Is Water female? No.

 

Is Fire male? No.

 

Time to think outside of the box...

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

There is no reproduction and therefore no genitalia so what is actually the difference between the males and females?

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

You can't see it, but I'm producing a notable "tsk" noise repeatedly here.

[Munty]

 

There is no reproduction and therefore no genitalia so what is actually the difference between the males and females?

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

You can't see it, but I'm producing a notable "tsk" noise repeatedly here.

 

 

Presumably because you realise there's no way you can respond to my logic?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

There is no reproduction and therefore no genitalia so what is actually the difference between the males and females?

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

You can't see it, but I'm producing a notable "tsk" noise repeatedly here.

 

 

Presumably because you realise there's no way you can respond to my logic?

 

 

gosh golly, there's the sound again! this logic of yours must be on fire today. <(that's called sarcasm by the way.)

[bonesiii]

 

 

This all seems absolutely unnecessary and unfounded. I know a lot of people here have trouble getting their heads around the screwy gender ratio but is it really so bad as to require all this desperate clutching at straws?

Depends on what counts as a straw. Retconning one obscure unnamed guy, after originally being told he should be female (so that was itself a retcon), to make it less imbalanced... what's the problem?

 

Granted, I'm pretty sure it was a ratio of the ENTIRE MU, so there were a couple of factors that made it more equal (ie, they guessed that there were more female Vortixx and this was before many of the female Makuta were killed.)

Yeah, I realized after posting it was probably not just the Matoran, but do we know the average ratio of the other species in total? I have no idea what it is. Vortixx is just one. Makuta ratio is no help, if I recall correctly -- I forget the exact number but it was small.


The "base" ratio is 5 to 1. It may go down to 4 point something, or 3... I find 2 or 1 point something to be unlikely.

(We'd have to know the ratio of other elements in population to the main six, and then the "aliens" to Matoran.)

 

Hands up who's happy with the Gen 1 story the way it is? Oh, pretty much everyone...

Munty, please calm down -- this is a sensitive subject. Please try to remember that -- and people not staying calm in the past on this subject hasn't ended well.

To this -- I'm pretty sure we've seen that most people aren't happy with G1 on this detail. But we can resolve this one pretty simply with a poll.

I can see an argument that it's too late to change the general rule, although nobody has ever complained about my changing it in the Paracosmos. (It could have been changed easily in the early years, but they didn't opt for it.) But this only changes one obscure scene, right?

[ToaKapura1234]

There's certain elements that need to be either male or female. For example, I couldn't imagine Gali as a guy. But some elements I think could work either way. Psionics, for one, because it is canonically both. I think plantlife could also work either way, but since the gender ratio is skewed, plantlife could easily be a female-only element. The ratio isn't VERY skewed, though. I think someone around here did the math and it was something like 1.33 to 1.

This has probably already been said but I didn't have time to read the whole topic. If you only count Matoran, Toa, and Turaga, discounting Kra who are unnatural and Av who can be both and if you assume equal pouplations across elements, then the ratio is four to one. Fire, Stone, Earth, Ice, Air, Plasma, Plantlife, Gravity, Iron, Magnetism, Sonics versus Lightning, Water, and Psionics. 11:3 or approximately 4:1. And the ratio of all set characters is even more skewed since there were often no females among titans and villains and never more than one.

Edited May 11, 2015 by ToaKapura1234

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm all for more equal gender ratios (I headcanon mixed-gender elements), but Gravity has in fact been specified male, in No One Gets Left Behind.

 

Their leader, a grizzled Toa of Gravity, had initially refused the request, but after much negotiation, allowed her to try. Rumor has it that she had used her powers to make him "see" her point of view, but neither of them could afford to admit it.

Greg has probably specified it somewhere along the line as well, but I don't have any of those quotes on me.

First of all, check the source. That was written by a fan for a contest or something and approved by Greg. Greg gimself only stated OUTSIDE of story (far as I know) that Gravity is male. Shadow-Nui, the writer of that story, followed that out-of-story statement. So, unless it was in that Time Trap scene, no official media has defined the gender of Gravity.

What do you mean by check the source? Wasn't it canonized as part of a Greg-approved contest, and thus very much official, regardless of the fact that if was fan-created? Admittedly, I'm a bit confused, and some clarification would be appreciated.

 

And even if it isn't canon, if Greg made an out-of-story statement, doesn't that stand regardless of whether or not it was ever featured in-story? Or am I missing something about that too? Like I said, I don't have a quote. I was just bringing up what I thought was a canon mention of a male Toa of Gravity.

I meant exactly what I said. That piece was not written by Greg--it was written by a fan, and the EVENTS that transpired are canon. Prior to the writing of NOGLB, Greg had stated that he saw Gravity as a male element, and the writer of that story went off of that.

 

And yes, if Greg stated it, it should be canon. However, since he never did anything with the Gravity element, it's one thing that could be retconned, and it wouldn't change a thing in any official story source. Clear?

More so. Guess I was overthinking things a bit.

 

I still don't really see why NOGLB doesn't seem to count as an 'official' canon source, though. It may have been written by a fan, but if it was canonized, why does it matter who wrote it - isn't it still canon? Why should it be any more acceptable to retcon it than any other source of story media?

[Munty]

Munty, please calm down -- this is a sensitive subject. Please try to remember that -- and people not staying calm in the past on this subject hasn't ended well.

To this -- I'm pretty sure we've seen that most people aren't happy with G1 on this detail. But we can resolve this one pretty simply with a poll.

 

I can see an argument that it's too late to change the general rule, although nobody has ever complained about my changing it in the Paracosmos.  (It could have been changed easily in the early years, but they didn't opt for it.) But this only changes one obscure scene, right?

 

Bones, I've been in these discussions before, and I've seen how they can go. I have no interest in contributing to the downfall of another topic or the instigation of any heat based conflict but I've never seen this discussed rationally in the past. 

 

To be fair it's probably not possible to have a rational discussion about something so obscure as a children's toyline but then again that's kind of the point isn't it? People are so keen to jump on the gender ratio bandwagon that they never even once consider the fact that the Matoran Universe is a gender sterile environment. Think of it in real times, males have outy bits, females have inny bits. Even on belts and bolts that's essentially what we mean by male and female... The beings living in the Matoran Universe have none of these physical attributes and therefore cannot be considered male of female in the traditional sense. There can be no gender in a species without reproduction, that's just fact. 

 

I believe the issue here is how we as a bi-gender species interpret a race that is so completely unlike us. And so water is seen as a female element because it's calm, graceful and peaceful. Fire is an uncontrollable and destructive force and is therefore seen as male. But that doesn't mean that toa and matoran of these elements are more masculine or feminine than any others. It doesn't make Gali specifically female nor Tahu specifically male simply because we attribute a gender to the element they control. 

 

Think about it objectively, Greg could have referred to everyone as he OR she and we would probably be fine with that, certainly as educated and experienced adults we would have no problem seeing it as a gender-free environment. The difficulty is, there is no clear third way he could have related us to the characters without alienating one gender. Calling everyone 'he' would shut the door on the female demographic (bad for sales clearly) while calling them all she would probably put off the boys the line was mostly aimed at (significantly worse for business!)

 

Failing referring to everyone as 'they' and 'it' there has to be a decision made regarding how to refer to each individual. Due to a limited vocabulary they couldn't use a non-gender specific term and for business reasons they couldn't choose just one. That's why we have a 'gender divide' in Bionicle despite the fact that they are all gender neutral. The issue here, I mean the REAL issue, is not that Bionicle is dominated by males but that people interpret it in that way. Everyone is entitled to their own headcanon and their own interpretations in fan-fiction and what not. The only thing that should EVER be canonised however is that none of the Toa, Matoran or any other creatures living inside the MU had any gender at all.

 

Apologies if the execution of my opinion comes off as offensive to anyone, I do not claim to be more correct than anyone else here. It simply seems the only logical conclusion to me that Bionicle is now and always was intended to be gender neutral. We have literally zero evidence to the contrary (excluding Roodaka's ladylumps perhaps) and every time we discuss it people start talking about keeping x male and making y female which is all very much clutching at straws. It's trying to alter a story that ended long ago to create a balance in something that simply doesn't exist. 

 

I will concede that it is VERY strange having a single male in what is normally defined as a female species as that doesn't even fit with us attributing gender to the elements that the characters belong to. If air is a feminine element for example (as many suggets and I agree) then Lewa should technically referred to in a feminine sense too. Just like all the other characters representative of this element. That is NOT to suggest Lewa is female however, no more than male at least... Just that I agree the Orde thing is wierd and generally speaking we should stick with single gender elements/tribes based on what we hear from official canon. There is no need to create more labels than we already have and making a few more elements 'female' will not alter the fact that the characters within them are still ultimately gender-neutral. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by Munty

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

matoran do have gender though, they uh, constantly refer to it, they use gendered pronouns and whatnot, they do have a sense of gender. (idk where they got it from? but it's there.)

 

what you are possibly referring to is biological traits commonly associated with the cisgender male or female body, which, idk how close that topic gets to inappropriate content for a kids toyline site? so i'll keep my terminology a tad bit more reeled in than you have. :t

Edited May 11, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[Naota Takizawa]

Don't go into specifics when discussing the biological differences of males and females, Bonesiii will show up and wipe out our posts.