Plantlife's gender

[Petewa]

Why is this still an ongoing debate? How is it that the few supporters of this unnecessary ret-con haven't seen sense yet? I just cannot help myself but quote this...

 

I'm just sayin, the way that pleases the largest number of bionicle fans with the least retcon is the complete and utter obliteration of the tribe-gendering scheme, I don't write the statistics, I just read 'em. :u

 

You mean like the actual, real canon story? Hands up who's happy with the Gen 1 story the way it is? Oh, pretty much everyone... So the least amount of ret-cons needed would be ZERO! We do not need to change anything in order to make more people happy. There are very few people who want this to change and everyone else is happy to just accept it the way it is and move on so why don't we? 

 

Gender-locked tribes are stupid but it's just pretty much always been that way so nothing we cna do will change it. Much as I hate using the 'word of Greg' clause, this is one occasion on which I'm happy to cite it. The entire story was written in this mono-gender way. There is no reproduction and therefore no genitalia so what is actually the difference between the males and females? It's certainly not a sexist division as Gali is never shown to be less powerful or competent than the 'masculine' toa. In fact it's Lewa who get's messed up by the Krana and Tahu with the infected mask, Gali seems to avoid both situations making her a very strong capable character. 

 

Essentially, EVERY single being in the Matoran Universe (not on SM I guess) is completely free of gender. They are neither male nor female. Not masculine or feminine. No ding-dongs or jubblies... But that leaves it as impossible for us to relate to them. They could be said to be asexsual for example as they do not suffer any form of gender specific attraction. Seeing as we can't define their gender though perhaps they are androgynous beings in that they do not relate exclusively to either masculine or feminine traits. Perhaps they have neither, perhaps they have both.

 

Physically there is quite literally no real world term for WHAT the inhabitants of the MU are. We're looking at a sentient lifeform with no means of reproduction. Fairly obviously no such thing exists on earth as they would die out after a single generation. In this sense the Matoran and Tao living in the GSR can be thought of as clones or robots as when they 'die' they are simply rebuilt/repaired/revived by the red star. Av Matoran become Bohrok who in actual fact ARE machines.

 

Perhaps the most sensible course of action would be to realise that gender bears no significance to the world of Bionicle AT ALL as they are all in essence sentient robotic beings. They may have living tissue as well but they don't have it where it counts and therefore are non-gender beings. The only reason there is a 'female' tribe is because it was good for marketing to girls. Frankly though, that was the franchise's biggest mistake (though not in terms of revenue I imagine!) By introducing a single female character to the universe, Lego opened the doors to ridiculous questions and speculation like this. Now we're 14 years down the line and STILL there are people asking why the gender ratio is skewed when there is essentially NO GENDER AT ALL! 

 

Take a step back, have a think about what you determine to be male/female definitions. Then go and read up on transgender, bi-gender and genderqueer. Then try and once again define what is male and what is female. Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions. If you can still define a binary gender system while adhering to all of that knowing what you now know about how complicated an issue gender is even when we DO have sexual identities then please, tell us all about it.

 

If however you can no longer define a bi-gender system in a world without love, sex, romance or genitals please stop trying to attach this unnecessary label to characters and situations it simply does not apply to. 

 

Is Plantlife female? No.

 

Is Water female? No.

 

Is Fire male? No.

 

Time to think outside of the box...

U mad bro?

 

 

There is no reproduction and therefore no genitalia so what is actually the difference between the males and females?

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

Then consider a world with no sexual contact or reproduction, one completely devoid of any genitalia or romantic notions.

 

You can't see it, but I'm producing a notable "tsk" noise repeatedly here.

 

Romance actually appears a lot in BIONICLE.

 

More so. Guess I was overthinking things a bit.

I still don't really see why NOGLB doesn't seem to count as an 'official' canon source, though. It may have been written by a fan, but if it was canonized, why does it matter who wrote it - isn't it still canon? Why should it be any more acceptable to retcon it than any other source of story media?

 

If anything, I think that would qualify it moreso official than say, a fanfiction, seeing as most fan-made things wouldn't even begin to be considered as being canonized.

 

Think of it in real times, males have outy bits, females have inny bits.

Toa Mata:

 

"inny bits": 

 

"outy bits":  

[Munty]

matoran do have gender though, they uh, constantly refer to it, they use gendered pronouns and whatnot, they do have a sense of gender. (idk where they got it from? but it's there.)

 

what you are possibly referring to is biological traits commonly associated with the cisgender male or female body, which, idk how close that topic gets to inappropriate content for a kids toyline site? so i'll keep my terminology a tad bit more reeled in than you have. :t

 

That's a very good point that I didn't take into consideration actually. All the dialogue within the MU still uses both male and female terms so where did they get that from I wonder? If they differentiate each other as masculine and feminine there must be a reason... I would still stand by the fact that it doesn't have to be a debate about gender specifically though (which in turn removes the 'sexism' that a lot of people read into this issue I think) Maybe instead of just us (real people) assigning a gender quality to each element, the MU inhabitants do as well. 

 

Please consider the wording of that statement before saying 'so they ARE gender locked tribes' because that's not exactly what I mean. I re-iterate the fact that gender in the world as we know it is determined by reproduction. The pitcher is usually male while the catcher is often female after all... So we still shouldn't be treating the matoran's use of gender specific terms as actually relating to binary genders within the MU. Simply that they apply a binary gender system to the elements which would then be in FAVOUR of gender locked tribes. 

 

As an example think of mother nature, old father time and lady luck. They aren't actually assigned genders because they are more ideas than actual beings. In the same way I don't think it's right to assign genders to the MU inhabitants but it could still be fine to refer to them in such a way based on their element.

 

I still have no explanation for Orde, will have to BS01 it and see if there's a way that my brain can make sense of it 

 

Don't go into specifics when discussing the biological differences of males and females, Bonesiii will show up and wipe out our posts. 

 

I'm trying very hard not to, sorry if it doesn't come through that way and I hope noone feels it's too close to the mark. It's a tricky topic to discuss without considering such things though in my opinion and the omission of such statements in the past has likely done more harm to the topic than good.Like it or not, gender is assigned based on the equipment you carry. It's also my hope that people too young to understand these things aren't given free reign of the internet by their parents. Even if this is a Lego forum it only takes a few unsupervised clicks before the internet doesn't care too much about how old you are

 

In the event that someone DOES feel the need to edit any of my posts please try to preserve my point if possible. I've done my best to keep things clean but it's tough to interpret people's reactions in topics like this one!

 

Petewa, where was there romance in Bionicle? I can only assume you mean Macku and Hewkii which was really more like infatuation. Hewkii was a cool dude, Macku idolised him, that's all. In fact here's a pretty nifty post from Bonesii on the matter...   

 

 

1) Canonically it isn't debatable that Matoran Universe beings like Matoran do not have romantic feelings. They don't. (Note that they do "love" in the purer sense, however; as in brotherly love; wanting everybody to be safe, etc. and canonically the things you're confusing for romance are really that more pure kind of love -- close friendship -- as well as a mere political alliance in Sidorak & Roodaka's case.) Likewise, it's canon fact that Spherus Magna natives like Agori do. So there's really nothing left to discuss.

 

2) The makers of the semi-canon MNOGs and later online videos implying romance between some Matoran were likely not aware of what Matoran really were or the big secrets behind the story, as they did not clear much of that with the story team, which is a big part of why those are only considered semi-canon. (Note: it wasn't de-canonized -- common misconception -- because it was never canonized in the first place. The web team simply used some of their own interpretations and assumptions in programming the early online content.)

 

As for the images you included in that last post, I'm not even going to go there. This is a serious discussion about a topic that really seems to affect people surprisingly strongly. I was making a valid point and logical argument. You seem to just be making a joke which probably isn't a good idea in here

[Irrie]

Holy moly, this topic has exploded into a volley of edgy tension since my last visit here. Well, I suppose I'll give you all my two cents on this issue here. 

 

- On the once mentioned Toa of Plantlife being retconned to a female, I am very unsure how to react to this. It was released in official canon, and official canon is the law of the land. But is it really worth following said laws this time? I've noticed that the gender ratio is one of the most hated aspects about Bionicle by fans (well, most fans that is), so it might pay off for us to change this dude's gender. But a retcon is still a retcon. I'm all for filling in details with canonization (i.e. elements, masks, ect.), but I don't think that retconning is all that beneficial to the lore because of how confusing it can be. But at the same time, this character will probably not cause much confusion since he only appeared once and was only mentioned at that time. 

My final verdict on this is that I slightly support changing him to a girl, but that's subject to become different in the future. 

- On having the Toa of Plantlife being the only male of their race, I would support it if we didn't have Orde's history already. I'm all for giving backstory to even minor characters, but not one that's a direct copy of a different character's. 

- On if MU inhabitants should have genders or not, I absolutely think that they should. It helps us relate to the story and characters so much more. So what if they don't reproduce? Giving them genders adds more layers to their personalities that helps distinguish them from being mindless robots. I would much rather put up with a skewed gender ratio than simply having no genders at all. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by The Irrational Rock

[Constructelf]

@Munty:

 

Not sure if I'm interpreting your posts correctly, but you might be confusing sex and gender. From the World Health Organization:

 

Sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what is meant by the term "gender", and how it differs from the closely related term "sex".

 

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

 

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

 

To put it another way:

 

"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

With that definition in mind, the beings of the MU obviously have no sexual characteristics. But what about mentally? What about their behavior in society? And what do they identify as?

Edited May 11, 2015 by One-Eyed Construct

[The 1st Shadow]

More so. Guess I was overthinking things a bit.

I still don't really see why NOGLB doesn't seem to count as an 'official' canon source, though. It may have been written by a fan, but if it was canonized, why does it matter who wrote it - isn't it still canon? Why should it be any more acceptable to retcon it than any other source of story media?

 

Because the point of the contest was to write the story of Varian, the Toa trapped in stasis in TSO's chambers. This was a character we'd never known, so the fans were given a chance to contribute. NOGLB was one of those that had the strongest story and felt the most authentic to the official canon. This does not mean that every detail was completely accurate.

 

Let me explain:

 

1. Greg says an element, that has never appeared in story, is MALE

2. Contest entry written by fan who follows that out-of-story-word

3. Greg never writes anything about Gravity characters, so we have no official canon to compare one line in a fan-made short story to.

[Petewa]

If the genders were to be removed from BIONICLE, I'd still think that, confused with their own biology, the MU inhabitants would designate a difference between genders, based on personal attributes shared by members within elements, (gender-locking themselves) and rarely, one would feel they weren't the gender assigned to their element, such as with the plantlife Toa. That or Piraka gave up on trying to distinguish the genders, and just refer to anything of unknown gender as he.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

More so. Guess I was overthinking things a bit.

I still don't really see why NOGLB doesn't seem to count as an 'official' canon source, though. It may have been written by a fan, but if it was canonized, why does it matter who wrote it - isn't it still canon? Why should it be any more acceptable to retcon it than any other source of story media?

 

Because the point of the contest was to write the story of Varian, the Toa trapped in stasis in TSO's chambers. This was a character we'd never known, so the fans were given a chance to contribute. NOGLB was one of those that had the strongest story and felt the most authentic to the official canon. This does not mean that every detail was completely accurate.

 

Let me explain:

 

1. Greg says an element, that has never appeared in story, is MALE

2. Contest entry written by fan who follows that out-of-story-word

3. Greg never writes anything about Gravity characters, so we have no official canon to compare one line in a fan-made short story to.

 

Okay, first: why does being written for a contest about Varian mean that we cannot take the detail of the Toa of Gravity's gender to be accurate? Wouldn't BS01 have a semi-canon disclaimer on the NOGLB page if it were not to be interpreted as wholly canon?

 

Aside from that... if Greg once said Gravity was male, isn't that now official canon regardless? I thought his declarations, out-of-story or not, were accepted as official canon. Otherwise the name of the Toa Cordak, the Toa of the Green who lived in Ga-Metru, and a ton of other stuff wouldn't be canon either, and to my knowledge it is.

 

To clarify my purpose in continuing this debate, and my position on this: I don't want Gravity made a female element, because that would be a retcon of canon media (that is, NOGLB) and out-of-story Greg edicts. And while I'd be open to establishing a henceforth unknown-gender element as female (like plasma?) in support of more equal gender ratios, I'm opposed to retcons, for reasons others have articulated far more eloquently than I could hope to.

[fishers64]

Someone suggested running a poll on the preferences for gender ratios. Normally I'd be more than happy to make a poll, but this topic (and frankly, like ten other topics on this subject) have been so nasty that starting another one doesn't seem anywhere close to a good idea.

[Jobber]

Someone suggested running a poll on the preferences for gender ratios. Normally I'd be more than happy to make a poll, but this topic (and frankly, like ten other topics on this subject) have been so nasty that starting another one doesn't seem anywhere close to a good idea.

True. Especially the past few days.

[Irrie]

Someone suggested running a poll on the preferences for gender ratios. Normally I'd be more than happy to make a poll, but this topic (and frankly, like ten other topics on this subject) have been so nasty that starting another one doesn't seem anywhere close to a good idea.

Eh, couldn't the OP add a poll to this topic? 

Or is there some sort of weird BZPower mechanic that I don't know about yet that prevents that? 

[SailorQuaoar]

Guys guys guys. Please don't turn this into another heated argument. We have enough of those.

 

All I was proposing was that one element's gender be changed. Not every element in the MU.

 

I don't want to redefine gender, and I don't want to get into a sex vs gender debate.

 

All i wanted was a bit of representation in a way that wouldn't require major story revisions.

[believe victims]

Essentially, EVERY single being in the Matoran Universe (not on SM I guess) is completely free of gender. They are neither male nor female.

 

Your entire argument hinges on this, which is weird, because the story itself contradicts this assertion. As terribly-written and poorly-handled as that whole deal was, it was canon. If Orde can be the male that caused the Great Beings to make all further Ce-Matoran/Toa/Turaga female, then obviously there is a notion of gender among Matoran.

 

As for the topic itself, I don't particularly care about trying to change the G1 story, since it's done, and any changes don't actually make a difference, but I do hope we see more female characters in G2 to make sure it can avoid yet another of G1's pitfalls.

[Grungemeister]

 

 

 

Did u kno?

 

the gender of a one-off prop character greg had the Piraka violently thrash to get to a treasure-reward doesn't define the gender of that character's entire people?

 

now you do! :U

 

 

Except that it's a rule in G1 that tribes were gender-locked. Av-Matoran are the exception to the rule as they were intended to be unique and special. (That and a Toa Psionics, which was kind of dumb IMO.) Like it or not, it's how the MU works.

 

 

it's how the MU works... except for when it's convenient! funny how the first psion toa we meet is a guy, after it's said they're an all-female tribe... hmmm, kinda makes it seem like it's not how the MU works, doesn't it? kinda makes it look like monogender tribes can be broken if you're introducing a male character for a previously female tribe, hmmmmmmmm....

 

That's backwards - Psionics was originally a male element, but after Orde it was changed to a female element. And Psionics doesn't really count as a monogender tribe being broken, it's the first guy changing the outcome of the rest. 

 

By your logic, if a company is started by Germany and all of its facilities are built in Germany, then it is bought by France and all of the workers are now French, and all of its ads etc. are now French, then it's incorrect to say that it was originally built by Germany and that the factories are still on German soil. Yes, Orde is an exception, but it's a hasty generalization to say that he's the incorrect one; Psionics was originally a male element. Every female Psionics being is yes, the norm, but no, not the original.

 

Basically tl;dr Psionics doesn't count as a male breaking a female-only tribe because Orde is the reason it's female.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Toa Vanson

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

 

 

 

Did u kno?

 

the gender of a one-off prop character greg had the Piraka violently thrash to get to a treasure-reward doesn't define the gender of that character's entire people?

 

now you do! :U

 

 

Except that it's a rule in G1 that tribes were gender-locked. Av-Matoran are the exception to the rule as they were intended to be unique and special. (That and a Toa Psionics, which was kind of dumb IMO.) Like it or not, it's how the MU works.

 

 

it's how the MU works... except for when it's convenient! funny how the first psion toa we meet is a guy, after it's said they're an all-female tribe... hmmm, kinda makes it seem like it's not how the MU works, doesn't it? kinda makes it look like monogender tribes can be broken if you're introducing a male character for a previously female tribe, hmmmmmmmm....

 

That's backwards - Psionics was originally a male element, but after Orde it was changed to a female element. And Psionics doesn't really count as a monogender tribe being broken, it's the first guy changing the outcome of the rest. 

 

 

that's... oddly coincidental, don't you think? we just so happen to meet the one male member of a female-dominated tribe before any of the female members... (and i mean, "men are too aggressive to wield psionic powers", seriously?)

[believe victims]

That's backwards - Psionics was originally a male element, but after Orde it was changed to a female element.

 

You're thinking in-story, when RL is talking in terms of writing. Psionics was very much originally called a female element before Orde came on the scene. What I've heard (though I'm not sure if it's correct) is that he promptly forgot and made Orde male, then struggled to cover it up while not changing the character's gender, which resulted in the fairly messy thing that caused controversy.

[Grungemeister]

 

That's backwards - Psionics was originally a male element, but after Orde it was changed to a female element.

 

You're thinking in-story, when RL is talking in terms of writing. Psionics was very much originally called a female element before Orde came on the scene. What I've heard (though I'm not sure if it's correct) is that he promptly forgot and made Orde male, then struggled to cover it up while not changing the character's gender, which resulted in the fairly messy thing that caused controversy.

Ah, sorry I thought we were talking in-universe reasoning. And I don't know about you guys, but I actually really like Orde's backstory. It makes him a tragic outcast in a way.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

tis true, Orde is a tragic victim of Greg Farshtey's writing.

[IXRollOutIX]

How I see it:

 

There's no true genders. I agree with Munty on the notion that the lack of reproduction makes the MU inhabitants genderless. I think he's on the right track.

 

That said, The Great Beings created these peoples based off of the natives of Spherus Magna, those who allegedly did have reproduction and true gender types. So while there aren't any true genders in a scientific sense, there is deliberate imposed gender association. It's like building a robot, giving it feminine traits, and programming it to act like a woman. Is it truly female? No. Is it recognized as female? Yes.

 

Bottom line, genders do not need to exist in the MU. There's no reason for them to. Possibly The Great Beings were fascinated by female Agori/Glatorian and the role they played within the planet's social economy, so they thought it would be beneficial to include Matoran/Toa with those traits within their artificial universe, but that's it. Genders don't NEED to be there. So just be happy there are females in the MU to begin with.

 

 

 

 

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Bottom line, genders do not need to exist in the MU. There's no reason for them to. Possibly The Great Beings were fascinated by female Agori/Glatorian and the role they played within the planet's social economy, so they thought it would be beneficial to include Matoran/Toa with those traits within their artificial universe, but that's it. Genders don't NEED to be there. So just be happy there are females in the MU to begin with.

 

this paragraph feels... problematic, I'm not sure if you knew that when you were writing it, so i'll give you the chance to respond before grilling this subject like a slab of meat at a summer barbecue. :t

[believe victims]

There's no true genders. I agree with Munty on the notion that the lack of reproduction makes the MU inhabitants genderless. I think he's on the right track.

 

You show a fundamental misunderstanding of what gender is.

 

So just be happy there are females in the MU to begin with.

 

You're right. The possibility of the entire universe being completely genderless (which wasn't actually a possibility at all because characters are gendered for relatability so there will never be a robot story with genderless robots no matter how much fans insist they are to avoid complaints of sexism) totally means the fact that they instead gendered it with an incredibly heavy leaning towards male is something to be thankful for. You have truly opened my eyes.

[Irrie]

Bottom line, genders do not need to exist in the MU. There's no reason for them to. Possibly The Great Beings were fascinated by female Agori/Glatorian and the role they played within the planet's social economy, so they thought it would be beneficial to include Matoran/Toa with those traits within their artificial universe, but that's it. Genders don't NEED to be there. So just be happy there are females in the MU to begin with.

From a story standpoint, yes. The Matoran, being worker drones in design, didn't need genders since their purpose for existence was to maintain the GSR's operations. 

However, that's also extremely impractical. Maybe if Bionicle was just a novel series that could work, but not as a toyline. A toyline with a story used as promotional material needs to be relatable to the audience it's trying to appeal to, in this case your typical 8 year old child. Even though adding gender pronouns doesn't seem like very much, it makes the characters feel more like characters and less like machines. Such relatableness will encourage children who are becoming invested into the story to stick with it because it doesn't make it seem so alien. 

It's much easier for children (and most adults in general) to follow a story that has characters that they can bond with more than one that just has a bunch of 'it's. The gender pronouns make them feel more human-like, which is essential for capturing a follower's attention. 

[SailorQuaoar]

How I see it:

 

There's no true genders. I agree with Munty on the notion that the lack of reproduction makes the MU inhabitants genderless. I think he's on the right track.

 

That said, The Great Beings created these peoples based off of the natives of Spherus Magna, those who allegedly did have reproduction and true gender types. So while there aren't any true genders in a scientific sense, there is deliberate imposed gender association. It's like building a robot, giving it feminine traits, and programming it to act like a woman. Is it truly female? No. Is it recognized as female? Yes.

 

Bottom line, genders do not need to exist in the MU. There's no reason for them to. Possibly The Great Beings were fascinated by female Agori/Glatorian and the role they played within the planet's social economy, so they thought it would be beneficial to include Matoran/Toa with those traits within their artificial universe, but that's it. Genders don't NEED to be there. So just be happy there are females in the MU to begin with.

It's not that simple though. Very few series have genuinely genderless characters. They are usually coded as masculine or feminine.

 

Have you ever seen or heard of the show Steven Universe? The Gem race are rock aliens with no gender, but they look and sound feminine and are referred to with she/her pronouns.

Would you argue that they aren't really women because they have no physical sex?

 

It's similar with Transformers. If Transformers are all genderless, why do most of them look and sound male?

[Naota Takizawa]

Let's just assume matoran, turaga and toa of plant life are male and if some of us don't like it, we can pretend they are female instead of raising over a minor detail in gen 1's convoluted and inconsistent lore.

[Irrie]

Let's just assume matoran, turaga and toa of plant life are male and if some of us don't like it, we can pretend they are female instead of raising ###### over a minor detail in gen 1's convoluted and inconsistent lore.

If only the world worked like that... 

[The 1st Shadow]

Okay, first: why does being written for a contest about Varian mean that we cannot take the detail of the Toa of Gravity's gender to be accurate? Wouldn't BS01 have a semi-canon disclaimer on the NOGLB page if it were not to be interpreted as wholly canon?

 

Aside from that... if Greg once said Gravity was male, isn't that now official canon regardless? I thought his declarations, out-of-story or not, were accepted as official canon. Otherwise the name of the Toa Cordak, the Toa of the Green who lived in Ga-Metru, and a ton of other stuff wouldn't be canon either, and to my knowledge it is.

 

To clarify my purpose in continuing this debate, and my position on this: I don't want Gravity made a female element, because that would be a retcon of canon media (that is, NOGLB) and out-of-story Greg edicts. And while I'd be open to establishing a henceforth unknown-gender element as female (like plasma?) in support of more equal gender ratios, I'm opposed to retcons, for reasons others have articulated far more eloquently than I could hope to.

 

The OP was suggesting changing the gender of one Matoran Element: Plantlife.

 

However, Plantlife has been established in an official story source as male, rendering this a moot point. Like many others, I was offering up another option: Gravity, which HAS NOT appeared in an official canon source, to my knowledge (Still waiting for someone to pull out Time Trap and give us a screenshot of Lariska's conversation with TSO...). As such, it would make more sense to change that than to go back and fully retcon something that HAS appeared in story. 

 

You don't want Gravity changed? Fine. But a lot of us think it could easily be done otherwise. Plasma and Gravity are the only elements I can think of that would make the most sense to be made female due to their lack of appearances in official media.

 

I reiterate: NOGLB was written to portray the events that led to Varian being locked away in TSO's chambers. All that was was a minor reference to a character that never actually had any impact on a story not written by the official author of the series.

Edited May 12, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

i still fail to see how one green torso that was referred to as "he" right before dying (or, after? he's dead, that's what's important.) determines the gender of the whole of plantlife. :t

[Voxumo]

Let's just assume matoran, turaga and toa of plant life are male and if some of us don't like it, we can pretend they are female instead of raising ###### over a minor detail in gen 1's convoluted and inconsistent lore.

Agreed. I don't see why we are wasting time arguing about a story that is dead, not to ever be finished or continued. The only way the story will continue is through the writings of others, which at that point they can write characters whatever bloody genders they want, and it doesn't affect the official canon story. That's the amazing thing about creativity, you don't have to follow the guidelines of a set story to be creative. You want to write plantlife as a female element, go right on ahead, it's your own creativity. 

 

Also Lalonde, you may fail to see how it defines it, but like it or not that's what the story team of bionicle chose, or greg, whoever the heck made the decision. The people or person who created the story chose what gender would be associated with plantlife.

 

Who the bloody heck are we tell them what gender plantlife should be? It's their story, their creation. Not ours. They own the rights to the Bionicle story, they could completely change if they so choosed, and we wouldn't be able to do a darn thing about it. 

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

but, there was no choice? that was one character, and, idk, maybe greg said "yes" to something else about it. :0

 

i'm just confused why on one side we have "it can be a girl tribe because it never appeared in story!"

 

the other stands rather firmly at "uuh, no, greg said HE once, so it's gotta be guys."

 

and then i'm sorta like "greg hasn't said a thing i've cared about in 6+ years, lol."

 

it's just... if we base the genderlocks on what background characters had that element, they'd all probs be male 'cept water, since, like i said, greg kinda defaults to calling background characters male. :0

[fishers64]

 

 

Someone suggested running a poll on the preferences for gender ratios. Normally I'd be more than happy to make a poll, but this topic (and frankly, like ten other topics on this subject) have been so nasty that starting another one doesn't seem anywhere close to a good idea.

True. Especially the past few days.

Actually, these past few days have been relatively tame compared to the flames, vitrol, moderator posts, topics actually being hidden in their entirety and members being sent PMs by the administration, unpunished trolling and flaming and intolerance previous topics on this subject have generated.

 

While I think a lot of that is in the past now (and it was the subject of a moderation problem that has since been corrected), I'm cautious when approaching this subject still. Compared to those previous bloody nightmares, this topic has been relatively calm, though, so maybe this forum has finally cooled off enough that an objective poll can be conducted without turning into a flame war.

 

Maybe. I'm still not sure yet.

[SailorQuaoar]

Speaking of a poll, I tried to create one when I posted the topic, but it didn't go through. Do I need to be a Premium Member in order to do that?

 

And if not, could a mod edit the topic to put a poll in this topic?

[IXRollOutIX]

You have truly opened my eyes.

 

 

 

See this is why I opened my statements by saying "This is how I see it."

 

I'm just throwing my two cents in. Those are my views on the subject and I'm letting them be known. I don't need your approval, and I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone. Jeez. Why's everyone gotta be so hostile?

[Scanty Demon]

Why don't we just remove the element of plant life from canon? Along with the elements of gravity, sanics, electricity, magnetism, plasma, psionics, and just stick with the main six elements? The other elements just seem so OP it ain't even funny. Is that too much to ask?

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Speaking of a poll, I tried to create one when I posted the topic, but it didn't go through. Do I need to be a Premium Member in order to do that?

 

And if not, could a mod edit the topic to put a poll in this topic?

Once happened to me too. I thought anyone could make polls now? Or does this website go by the 'Pig Motto' from the book Animal Farm?

 

Why don't we just remove the element of plant life from canon? Along with the elements of gravity, sanics, electricity, magnetism, plasma, psionics, and just stick with the main six elements? The other elements just seem so OP it ain't even funny. Is that too much to ask?

I was baffled when the other elements were initially introduced, but I have since grown used to them (besides, i like Jovan and Krakua. ) The element I have a problem with is Magnetism and Gravity. I always felt Magnetism could just been a power of Lightning, and Gravity seems a bit OP and if they do have to exist then there should only be a handful of them, not whole tribes.

 

I have had ideas about there being dual-sided tribes, though. Like Plant could be female while Air could be male, Ice could be male while Water is Female, Plasma is female while Fire is male, etc. Idk, just something I have also seen fly around around the forums.

 

[fishers64]

Speaking of a poll, I tried to create one when I posted the topic, but it didn't go through. Do I need to be a Premium Member in order to do that?

 

And if not, could a mod edit the topic to put a poll in this topic?

Polls should work for all members now. I suggest giving it another try.

 

And yeah, pretty sure a mod could edit, but I don't think it would be necessary.

[Voxumo]

 

Why don't we just remove the element of plant life from canon? Along with the elements of gravity, sanics, electricity, magnetism, plasma, psionics, and just stick with the main six elements? The other elements just seem so OP it ain't even funny. Is that too much to ask?

I was baffled when the other elements were initially introduced, but I have since grown used to them (besides, i like Jovan and Krakua. ) The element I have a problem with is Magnetism and Gravity. I always felt Magnetism could just been a power of Lightning, and Gravity seems a bit OP and if they do have to exist then there should only be a handful of them, not whole tribes.

 

While Gravity is a bit OP, we do have to remember that while yes, there is a whole tribe of ba-matoran, not all ba-matoran are toa.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

 

Why don't we just remove the element of plant life from canon? Along with the elements of gravity, sanics, electricity, magnetism, plasma, psionics, and just stick with the main six elements? The other elements just seem so OP it ain't even funny. Is that too much to ask?

I was baffled when the other elements were initially introduced, but I have since grown used to them (besides, i like Jovan and Krakua. ) The element I have a problem with is Magnetism and Gravity. I always felt Magnetism could just been a power of Lightning, and Gravity seems a bit OP and if they do have to exist then there should only be a handful of them, not whole tribes.

 

While Gravity is a bit OP, we do have to remember that while yes, there is a whole tribe of ba-matoran, not all ba-matoran are toa.

 

Ehh, i guess you are right. I guess I just don't like the thought that many of them have the possibility to become toa, and as the races of the MU are indefinitely immortal they could eventually join forces and be a force to be reckoned with, whether it be consciously or unconsciously. Haha, I sound like an overtly paranoid Great Being.    I wonder if they actually thought about this and made a fail-safe for any group of toa inside of the MU (Marendar already exists on Spherus Magna so that was covered).

 

 

 That also brings something up, when making Marendar, how would the Great Beings have known about the rise of sentience inside of their artificial universe?  Did some/one of them know about Velika's plans for world domination? I imagine that when trying to tell all of her/his fellows that they thought of the accuser as being a crazed conspiracy theorist and only a handful of peers believed the accuser, among them being Agnance, and they constructed both Marendar and a possible MU mirror copy of it. If they did do this, it is possible that such a fail-safe was destroyed in either the first time Mata Nui was dieing or the Great Cataclysm.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Iaredios Paerkenon

[Iku]

 

Okay, first: why does being written for a contest about Varian mean that we cannot take the detail of the Toa of Gravity's gender to be accurate? Wouldn't BS01 have a semi-canon disclaimer on the NOGLB page if it were not to be interpreted as wholly canon?

 

Aside from that... if Greg once said Gravity was male, isn't that now official canon regardless? I thought his declarations, out-of-story or not, were accepted as official canon. Otherwise the name of the Toa Cordak, the Toa of the Green who lived in Ga-Metru, and a ton of other stuff wouldn't be canon either, and to my knowledge it is.

 

To clarify my purpose in continuing this debate, and my position on this: I don't want Gravity made a female element, because that would be a retcon of canon media (that is, NOGLB) and out-of-story Greg edicts. And while I'd be open to establishing a henceforth unknown-gender element as female (like plasma?) in support of more equal gender ratios, I'm opposed to retcons, for reasons others have articulated far more eloquently than I could hope to.

 

The OP was suggesting changing the gender of one Matoran Element: Plantlife.

 

However, Plantlife has been established in an official story source as male, rendering this a moot point. Like many others, I was offering up another option: Gravity, which HAS NOT appeared in an official canon source, to my knowledge (Still waiting for someone to pull out Time Trap and give us a screenshot of Lariska's conversation with TSO...). As such, it would make more sense to change that than to go back and fully retcon something that HAS appeared in story. 

 

You don't want Gravity changed? Fine. But a lot of us think it could easily be done otherwise. Plasma and Gravity are the only elements I can think of that would make the most sense to be made female due to their lack of appearances in official media.

 

I reiterate: NOGLB was written to portray the events that led to Varian being locked away in TSO's chambers. All that was was a minor reference to a character that never actually had any impact on a story not written by the official author of the series.

 

 

BS01 states that both Plasma and Gravity Matoran are male. Where did they appear in the canon, and were they referred to by gender pronouns? (BS01 has a shoddy citation system that prevents me from finding that out)

[Petewa]

There are 144 male Matoran that have appeared in canon.

 

There are 29 female.

 

There are 3 debatable.

[The 1st Shadow]

BS01 states that both Plasma and Gravity Matoran are male. Where did they appear in the canon, and were they referred to by gender pronouns? (BS01 has a shoddy citation system that prevents me from finding that out)

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. Those two elements are really only mentioned in passing, and never mentioned again. 

[fishers64]

Zaktan's fight with Toa of Plasma in one of the 2006 books (probably Legacy of Evil)?