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Canonization Poll: Toa of Plasma's Gender

Plasma Gender Canonization Poll  

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(and sorry guys. If you were born male, you can't say that gender doesn't matter in storytelling. It absolutely does, you just weren't aware of it because you were always represented in Bionicle canon)

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...what? Obvious bait, but what are you talking about? That was really an unnecessary comment. I wasn't aware that gender matters in storytelling? Well excuse me. I voted yes, but I guess that means I don't matter. Null my vote. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'd like to say more, but this forum is SFW. Have a nice day.

 

 

...is "women's opinions on women's issues are more valuable than men's" a controversial thing now?

 

Sorry, that was worded weird. I meant that Sailor made it sound like guys don't know anything about the fact that gender matters in stories.

 

That was not what I said.

What I meant was, if someone says "You're spending way too much time on this, MU doesn't *really* have gender so it doesn't matter if there are a lot more male characters" they're usually a dude. And if you were raised as a male you probably haven't experienced your gender being treated as "other" or "special" while male is the "default".

 

Gotcha. Sorry about that misunderstanding.

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Female! Let's mix things up a bit. There are a lot of male-dominated elements. It can't hurt to have another female element. Strong yes for me.

 

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I'll say yes. The MU is too much of a giant guy fest already.

  • Upvote 2

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A retcon is a retcon. This is completely unnecessary and I hope it gets a no vote, it's very close right now. I would also point out that something like this should require a larger majority to be passed onto Greg than the usual 'A got one more vote than B so they win' process. Preference should definitely go to the voters who want to maintain the status quo and are changing nothing, hurting noone. The voters trying to usher in a retcon instead of just headcanoning more female tribes are attempting to completely change pre-existing facts for no good reason. Please guys stop this unnecessary canonisation and gender reassignment polling! It's over! It was over years ago! Now can't we just let it go and move on? Maybe Gen 2 will give you female Plasma Toa, Gen 1 however did not. Fact...

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hurting noone

 

Is somebody being punched in the face every time someone votes "yes" or something?

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I voted "Strong No". I don't think changing a male tribe into a female one is as good way to adress the gender issue. It changes virtually nothing.

 

I think it would be far better to try to adress the gender issue in the story. The last serials actually brought a good way to introduce a change with Orde being male. The Matoran could see his difference as something useful against the new threats of Spherus Magna, and change the "Matoran-making machines" to create multi-gendered tribes. Another way to adress the problem would be through the GBs: if the mission to find them is successful, they might decide to make tribes multi-gendered seeing the Matoran are now sapient, to help them have a more balanced society. Both of these options would have the benefit of having more female Matoran, and to give that a positive connotation in-story.

  • Upvote 4

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man, why are people so against it on the grounds it's a retcon? Plasma never appeared as an actual character in-story, so the only thing getting retconned is word-of-god from greg once or twice. :t

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I think people are against it not so much because it's a retcon, but because it is a retcon that literately changes nothing in the story. As you stated plasma never appeared as an actual character in-story, so by changing the gender of it what is it really changing? Most retcons tend to change something of significance or that will have an actual affect on the story... This does nothing, it barely even changes the gender ratio which is pretty much the only reason anyone is providing for why this should happen. I mean really this argument as to why Plasma should be a female element is based on one thing. At least with the initial changing of Plantlife there were actual story reasons that made sense and supported the concept... but plasma no, no similar reasons. You don't build an argument on one point alone.

 

I mean as it is the Gender ratio for bionicle is this 11|3, not including light. With this retcon the new ration would be 10|4... Not a huge change at all and still wildly skewed. 

Edited by Voxumo
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I mean as it is the Gender ratio for bionicle is this 11|3, not including light. With this retcon the new ration would be 10|4... Not a huge change at all and still wildly skewed. 

29% is substantially closer* to 50% than 21%. (Had to re-math that because WOW rookie miscalculation)

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Assuming population density equality between tribes, standard deviations notwithstanding, all errors and omissions excluded, offer not available in Quebec.

Edited by Makaru
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I think people are against it not so much because it's a retcon, but because it is a retcon that literately changes nothing in the story. As you stated plasma never appeared as an actual character in-story, so by changing the gender of it what is it really changing? Most retcons tend to change something of significance or that will have an actual affect on the story... This does nothing, it barely even changes the gender ratio which is pretty much the only reason anyone is providing for why this should happen.

 

I see, so they'd be less mad if it was a substantial change?

 

in that case, how about air? or ice? would that be  worthy retcon? (assuming you're right and they all don't just dislike retcon as a concept. :t)

  • Upvote 1

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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

 

most card games i've seen use "he" to refer to the (neutral) player, so it's about as much evidence as any other "neutral he" would be. sorry.

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I think people are against it not so much because it's a retcon, but because it is a retcon that literately changes nothing in the story. As you stated plasma never appeared as an actual character in-story, so by changing the gender of it what is it really changing? Most retcons tend to change something of significance or that will have an actual affect on the story... This does nothing, it barely even changes the gender ratio which is pretty much the only reason anyone is providing for why this should happen.

 

I see, so they'd be less mad if it was a substantial change?

 

in that case, how about air? or ice? would that be  worthy retcon? (assuming you're right and they all don't just dislike retcon as a concept. :t)

 

Maybe if a really good case was built as to why changing those element's gender would be worthy of a retcon, though I have feeling you presented that in a rhetorical manner.


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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

 

most card games i've seen use "he" to refer to the (neutral) player, so it's about as much evidence as any other "neutral he" would be. sorry.

 

I wasn't using it as "evidence," I was simply providing some extra info for those of you who love to hunt down Greg's chat posts.

 

Besides, no-one here can claim to know exactly how Greg was using the word -- only he knows.

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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

 

most card games i've seen use "he" to refer to the (neutral) player, so it's about as much evidence as any other "neutral he" would be. sorry.

 

This does bring up a different question: I feel like Greg has used neutral terms/shorthand answers before, and we've used it as a basis for canonization (off the top of my head, this is one of the largest example, but there are definitly others). Should those be discounted/examined as well...?


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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

 

most card games i've seen use "he" to refer to the (neutral) player, so it's about as much evidence as any other "neutral he" would be. sorry.

 

Actually, to piggyback on this, "he" is typically accepted as a pronoun in English if the gender is unknown.


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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

 

most card games i've seen use "he" to refer to the (neutral) player, so it's about as much evidence as any other "neutral he" would be. sorry.

 

Actually, to piggyback on this, "he" is typically accepted as a pronoun in English if the gender is unknown.

 

 

but "they" is considered more proper, and less confusing. (i do wish greg used neutral they, it would remove such confusions. :t)


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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

 

most card games i've seen use "he" to refer to the (neutral) player, so it's about as much evidence as any other "neutral he" would be. sorry.

 

Actually, to piggyback on this, "he" is typically accepted as a pronoun in English if the gender is unknown.

 

 

but "they" is considered more proper, and less confusing. (i do wish greg used neutral they, it would remove such confusions. :t)

 

I think people use "he" because "they" is generally plural. Technically, correct grammar is "him or her", "he or she", "his or hers" etc. but that's a little clunky to say and write out. "He", "they", and "he or she" are all correct, though.

Edited by Toa Vanson

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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

But this isn't in written media (just "word of god" as TV tropes calls it), so it's less valid than anything published in a book.

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I mean as it is the Gender ratio for bionicle is this 11|3, not including light. With this retcon the new ration would be 10|4... Not a huge change at all and still wildly skewed. 

29% is substantially closer* to 50% than 21%. (Had to re-math that because WOW rookie miscalculation)

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Assuming population density equality between tribes, standard deviations notwithstanding, all errors and omissions excluded, offer not available in Quebec.

 

I still think it's kind of pointless. I understand why it looks like it might be a step in the right direction, but it's still only really saying only one gender can belong to one given element. If anything needs to be reconnected, it's that stupid mono-gender element rule. I have no idea why it was even a thing in the first place, seeing as they didn't even stick to it with the villains(because girls cant be bad unless they're seductive - I'm not saying we cant have female villains like that, I'm all for them. Just have some variety).

 

I understand it could be considered baby steps, but I think it is an incredibly small step(almost insubstantial) for something in this time period. 

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this isn't really the place to argue about grammar, this is more of the place to talk about how poorly Bionicle-1 handled its gender ratio and what we can do to fix it posthumously. :t

 

 

I still think it's kind of pointless. I understand why it looks like it might be a step in the right direction, but it's still only really saying only one gender can belong to one given element. If anything needs to be reconnected, it's that stupid mono-gender element rule. I have no idea why it was even a thing in the first place, seeing as they didn't even stick to it with the villains(because girls cant be bad unless they're seductive - I'm not saying we cant have female villains like that, I'm all for them. Just have some ###### variety).

 

I understand it could be considered baby steps, but I think it is an incredibly small step(almost insubstantial) for something in this time period. 

 

 

thankfully, there's a topic for that too! un-thankfully, its getting about as far as this one is progress-wise. :0

Edited by Rahkshi Lalonde
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this isn't really the place to argue about grammar, this is more of the place to talk about how poorly Bionicle-1 handled its gender ratio and what we can do to fix it posthumously. :t

That depends on whether or not we can afford retcons.

If we can't, then we can't change anything.

If we can, then why only change locked gender for plasma?

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TOO LATE.

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this isn't really the place to argue about grammar, this is more of the place to talk about how poorly Bionicle-1 handled its gender ratio and what we can do to fix it posthumously. :t

That depends on whether or not we can afford retcons.

If we can't, then we can't change anything.

If we can, then why only change locked gender for plasma?

 

 

when can't you afford retcons? is there some price i'm missing here? (i mean obviosuly major story points you can't, like the GSR or the vahki or whatever, but otherwise... ?)


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this isn't really the place to argue about grammar, this is more of the place to talk about how poorly Bionicle-1 handled its gender ratio and what we can do to fix it posthumously. :t

That depends on whether or not we can afford retcons.

If we can't, then we can't change anything.

If we can, then why only change locked gender for plasma?

 

 

when can't you afford retcons?

 

When Greg says "no", for example.

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TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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I found another example of Greg using male pronouns for Plasma.

 

6) Could a Toa of Plasma form objects like weapons out of his plasma?

 

6) If he was really skilled, yes

 

But this isn't in written media (just "word of god" as TV tropes calls it), so it's less valid than anything published in a book.

As I said, I wasn't presenting this as evidence, but simply to add to the tiny quotes collection on Page 1.


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When Greg says "no", for example.

 

but the entire point of a story retcon is to change that silly little "no" into a more positive "yes". :U

 

Greg can say "no" an unlimited amount of times, especially regarding something (no matter how good or bad) set by higher storywriters.

Edited by Mjolnitor

TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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When Greg says "no", for example.

 

but the entire point of a story retcon is to change that silly little "no" into a more positive "yes". :U

 

Greg can say "no" an unlimited amount of times, especially regarding something (no matter how good or bad) set by higher storywriters.

 

 

well then there's our problem, :0


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well then there's our problem, :0

 

Seems it's too late... and it was always too late.


TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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What about people who are so against retconns because "they don't do anything" try to focus all their energy that they've been using on opposing such retconnes on making a difference in G2?  Just a thought.


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What about people who are so against retconns because "they don't do anything" try to focus all their energy that they've been using on opposing such retconnes on making a difference in G2?  Just a thought.

Because they can't make a difference in G2, that's why.

And nobody can except for current storywriters.


TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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What about people who are so against retconns because "they don't do anything" try to focus all their energy that they've been using on opposing such retconnes on making a difference in G2?  Just a thought.

Because they can't make a difference in G2, that's why.

And nobody can except for current storywriters.

 

 

not exactly true.

 

it's well known (hopefully) that in an ongoing series, even though the writer gets first/foremost control on what happens, if an element in a story is problematic, and the bulk of the fanbase vocally states their regards to the problematic element, it is generally considered good form for the writer to find a way to alter/remove the problematic element. :t


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it's well known (hopefully) that in an ongoing series, even though the writer gets first/foremost control on what happens, if an element in a story is problematic, and the bulk of the fanbase vocally states their regards to the problematic element, it is generally considered good form for the writer to find a way to alter/remove the problematic element. :t

 

Then where was the entire Bonkle fanbase while G1 was ongoing?

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TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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it's well known (hopefully) that in an ongoing series, even though the writer gets first/foremost control on what happens, if an element in a story is problematic, and the bulk of the fanbase vocally states their regards to the problematic element, it is generally considered good form for the writer to find a way to alter/remove the problematic element. :t

 

Then where was the entire Bonkle fanbase while G1 was ongoing?

 

 

they were (probably) mostly children. :t


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hurting noone

Is somebody being punched in the face every time someone votes "yes" or something?

 

You don't have to punch someone in the face for them to be negatively impacted by something... If this poll ends up passing a 'yes' vote then it will have a negative affect on all those people who voted no because the next move will be to actively campaign for Greg to retcon something that has already been established as fact (by him) in a universe created over a decade ago and abandonned for almost half as long. The Gen1 story is OVER and no amount of retcons or future canonisations will have any effect on anything other than to make an already convoluted, hard to understand story even more disjointed and inconsistent than it is now! 

 

Why people can't just accept that Gen1 messed up with mono-gender tribes and move on is beyond me. Sometimes a mistake can just stay a mistake. The definition of the word mistake is not 'something that must be fixed' simply 'something that is incorrect.

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hurting noone

Is somebody being punched in the face every time someone votes "yes" or something?

 

You don't have to punch someone in the face for them to be negatively impacted by something... If this poll ends up passing a 'yes' vote then it will have a negative affect on all those people who voted no because the next move will be to actively campaign for Greg to retcon something that has already been established as fact (by him) in a universe created over a decade ago and abandonned for almost half as long. The Gen1 story is OVER and no amount of retcons or future canonisations will have any effect on anything other than to make an already convoluted, hard to understand story even more disjointed and inconsistent than it is now! 

 

Why people can't just accept that Gen1 messed up with mono-gender tribes and move on is beyond me. Sometimes a mistake can just stay a mistake. The definition of the word mistake is not 'something that must be fixed' simply 'something that is incorrect.

 

 

People can still find something wrong with media they enjoy and find ways to make it a little less bad in hindsight. It's really not hurting anyone or anything, having one more barely on screen/paid attention to elemental tribe consist of women instead of men like the other 90% of the MU.

 

It's better than the other canonizations we regularly do on this website.

 

 

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It's better than the other canonizations we regularly do on this website.

Such as what? I'm kind of curious what weird things have been canonized by fans bringing it up.

 

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