Water too OP in Water?

[Ghidora131]

Hello, all!

 

Now, a topic was brought up in the RPG planning topic, and I've brought it here so it doesn't clutter up space.

 

 

Would water be too OP for beings underwater? could it be used for crushing your opponent? or pushing them away, drowning them, or what?

 

Get to debating!!!

[JMSOG]

it could probably do all those things...but it brings up the similar question of "is air too OP in air?". I think that, if the writers weren't worried about making the characters OP, we probably would have seen more water and air toa being horrific forces of nature.

[Aanchir]

I don't think a Toa of Water would be any more OP in water than a Toa of Air is in air or a Toa of Earth is underground.

With that said, that means the idea of a Toa of Water crushing their opponent using water pressure about as unlikely as a Toa of Air crushing an opponent using air pressure. If the opponent is underwater in the first place, that probably means they can survive at the pressure at that depth, and other than creating strong currents (the underwater equivalent of strong winds) there's not a whole lot a Toa of Water could do to increase that pressure.

I think any type of Toa would be capable of drowning an opponent as a Toa of Water, because all you have to do to drown a non-water-breathing opponent is to attack them until they no longer have the stamina to continue holding their breath. And anyway, a Toa of Air could just as easily asphyxiate an opponent on land by using their elemental power to create a vacuum around them, so I don't see how a Toa of Water would have a considerably greater advantage against air-breathers underwater than a Toa of Air would against air-breathers on land.

Anyway, the idea of ANY Toa using their elemental powers in such a ruthless way is pretty implausible anyhow. Skakdi, maybe, but only if a Skakdi would even have the finesse to pull that off.

A Toa of Water could definitely use water currents to push an opponent away, but really, so could a Toa of Air if you substitute "water currents" for "winds". I don't think that is enough to make either element OP.

[Naota Takizawa]

Every toa is OP in the right environment. I don't see why water gets all this flak for being OP when we've had people abuse elements like magnetism, iron or gravity and no one batted an eye at them.

[fishers64]

Even elements of Fire and Stone could accomplish asphyxiation - Toa of Fire by billowing fire directly into the lungs or even just smoke, and Toa of Stone by sealing their opponent's head in an airtight stone container. 

 

With that being said, a Toa of Water could kill a Water-breathing opponent by taking water from the gills, which I had a water Toa do to kill someone in a RPG. 

 

But I think we're looking at this the wrong way. A Toa of Earth will have an advantage in an earth tunnel, a Toa of Stone in a Stone tunnel, a Toa of Fire in a fire pit/lava field, a Toa of Jungle in the jungle, and so on. That's the principle of places like the Island of Mata Nui and Metru Nui and Okoto - different Toa perform better in their home areas. 

 

Note that I said "advantage", not OP. A Toa of Water will have a multitude of advantages in water - self-propulsion, propulsion of other things in the water, possible choking abilities, and the ability to expel an opponent or ally from the water using a current or spout. A Toa of Stone will have a different set of advantages, such as crushing or trapping opponents. This is true of any environment. If I pluck that same Toa of Water and put her in a stone tunnel, she's going to have less environmental durability there. Across all environments, all Toa abilities are equal. 

 

Would people say that a swimmer is OP in water compared to a runner? No, they just say that the swimmer has an advantage. Same principle here. 

[Petewa]

Lol, that's like asking if a Toa of fire would be too OP in Minecraft's "Nether"

[CarumEsSarene]

Lol, that's like asking if a Toa of fire would be too OP in Minecraft's "Nether"

This explains Ta-Koro far too well.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

I don't see why water gets all this flak for being OP when we've had people abuse elements like magnetism, iron or gravity and no one batted an eye at them.

If I recall correctly, some of those elements like gravity were meant to be overpowered comparatively speaking, and thus Matoran/Toa of of that element were made rarer.

 

If water seems overpowered it's potentially more of an issue, with it being one of the most common elements seen. Not that I necessarily think it is. Air would be a better candidate for that, with the ability to create a vacuum. People have said using vacuum to choke someone would be out of character for a Toa of Air, but couldn't they just do so long enough to knock their foes unconscious without lasting harm?

 

~B~

[Sumiki]

This is why they had to have a Toa Code to prevent this from happening. Pretty much any element in the G1 universe is powerful in its element, and even things like psionics are powerful everywhere. They're all equally debilitating in the right circumstances.

[Alyska]

Toa of Water can easily kill people on dry land- it only takes a couple of litres in the lungs to drown somebody, (as Gali did in the Dark Mirror story), and control over water can prevent your opponent choking it back up again. Pushing opponents away was an underutilised tactic during the Mahri arc, but Hahli did once threaten a Matoran by taking away his air supply, if I remember correctly. Crushing is a fairly impractical way to kill someone, since you have to apply pressure from all directions, and Gravity, Iron and Stone do it easily regardless of environment.

 

Water in general is underutilised for its lethal capabilities- you'd think Helryx and Tuyet would have used those tactics more often- but being in water doesn't give you more capacity to kill someone apart from more pushing power (Shove them into sharp objects, or scoop up rocks and drop them on people). It's a moot point with most Toa of Water, since they have to find creative ways to deal with opponents in accordance with the Toa Code. (This is true of most real-life fighting techniques, by the way- it's easy to apply enough force to kill someone, but the challenges are in learning to fight without causing serious harm.)

 

Going back to the pushing thing- Anyone else think Jaller should have asked Hahli to do a nova blast in Mahri Nui rather than trying to do one himself? A fire blast would certainly kill everyone in a short radius, fellow Toa included, but it wouldn't travel very far in water, and would probably take out less than half the enemies. We know, however, it's easy to survive a Water nova as long as you can breathe in water- the enemies would have been blasted miles away, and the Toa would all be okay... 

[UnderscoreChronix]

Toa of Earth would be pretty OP underground too. 

Same goes for Toa of Iron or Magnetism if you're wearing metal armour. (Such as the Makuta)

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Toa of Earth would be pretty OP underground too. 

Same goes for Toa of Iron or Magnetism if you're wearing metal armour. (Such as the Makuta)

That is why they killed them all off. Well most of them anyway.

[Regitnui]

Is a Toa of Water overpowered in water? No, as even underwater, their abilities can be out-thought and countered. Do they have a significant advantage? Certainly, but so would any elemental being or caster when surrounded by an element with which they're proficient.

[bonesiii]

Problem with this question is there's no clear meaning of "over". Are you saying Toa shouldn't have power over their element? How then can they be Toa?

 

It's a bit like asking, "Is somebody with a gun overpowered in an ammo shop?"

 

If by "over" you simply mean "are they more effective than usual in that situation?" the answer is yes. If you mean "is there some logical reason they shouldn't be?" the answer is obviously no.

Edited May 30, 2015 by bonesiii

[Alyska]

Toa of Earth would be pretty OP underground too. 

Same goes for Toa of Iron or Magnetism if you're wearing metal armour. (Such as the Makuta)

I think its pretty well established that everyone has some metal in their armour or bodies. A Toa-Code Toa would fling your body against the wall or pin you to the ground. A non-Toa Coder would tear your body open, crush you like an aluminum can, or stab you to death with the sharpest metal objects he could summon.

 

I say again: The biggest challenge of using Toa powers is NOT killing all your opponents with them.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Alyska

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Yeah, I don't see why this would only apply to water. Sure, the weather effects of water can be devastating, but so can extreme heat, winds, seismic movements etc.

 

-NotS

[Prowl Nightwolf]

Problem with this question is there's no clear meaning of "over". Are you saying Toa shouldn't have power over their element? How then can they be Toa?

 

It's a bit like asking, "Is somebody with a gun overpowered in an ammo shop?"

 

If by "over" you simply mean "are they more effective than usual in that situation?" the answer is yes. If you mean "is there some logical reason they shouldn't be?" the answer is obviously no.

So Say'ith Bones the resident Bionicle Expert... .

 

Anyway I have to agree that water can appear over powered while in an aquatic setting. In the story this is true of every element user while surrounded by their element. The Term, "Over powered" is usually used when somebody dislikes the advantage someone or something gets over them. Thus why a balance is hard to find. It is as simple as that. In a purely aquatic environment Water has a steady lead in the power department. However that same advantage becomes a crippling disadvantage in a desert or volcanic setting where water supply is very scarce.

 

The reason for this topic was originally about a purely aquatic Bionicle RPG and not so much actual story. Though let's not let that sway any further discussion.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

You know what is weird? No Ga-Toa ever thought to use hard-water, like Mera Curry or the Aqualads from DC Universe. It would have been cool to see them cutting through metal (and people) in an awesome water-bending fashion.

[Xabla]

Every toa is op depending on where they are.

[Ghidora131]

With that being said, a Toa of Water could kill a Water-breathing opponent by taking water from the gills, which I had a water Toa do to kill someone in a RPG.

 

Yeah. I know.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Ghidora131

[fishers64]

 

With that being said, a Toa of Water could kill a Water-breathing opponent by taking water from the gills, which I had a water Toa do to kill someone in a RPG.

 

Yeah. I know.

 

Welp, that's Bionifight, and Ismekne has no scruples.

 

Actually, that would be a counterexample against Water OP in water claim, since Ismekne only managed to kill one person that entire round, and that was after having to be rescued. But that's neither here nor there...