Krana + Rahi = ?

[evil_jaga_genius]

Okay, so we know that Bohrok can throw their krana at anything that uses a Kanohi, and thus make them one of their mindless janitorial army.  Sometimes they plow along with their mission, other times they use a few krana to mind-control whoever's in the vicinity.  We've only seen this used on Matoran, Turaga, and Toa.  But!  They're not the only things that use Kanohi.

 

The original Rahi wore infected Kanohi that Makuta used to mind-control them.  When said masks were knocked off, the Rahi would return to its senses and typically run from its foe.  Now they have a lovely empty slot for a mask.  Or krana.

 

So what would happen if an enterprising Bohrok launched a couple krana at, say, a big honkin' Muaka?

 

Stories, headcanons, and plot-hole-discoveries are all welcome.

 

-Jaga

[Owlexander]

My guess is that it would have the same affect as it did on Lewa when he got attacked by a Krana.

[Jobber]

This topic makes me wonder what would happen if, say, a Hau Nuva were to be put on a Nui-Rama?

[CarumEsSarene]

Manas + Kraakhan = OP?

 

The krana would only work if the being had sentience, yes? So a krana on a rahi would merely just be a decoration.

[Makuta Luroka]

I reckon the effect would be similar to putting an infected kanohi on a rahi. The rahi would obey the will of the Bahrag.

[Click]

I'm not entirely sure it would work the same. It seemed to me that Krana and Infected Masks used different methods to control the bearers. Infection is closer to a disease, worming its way into the victim's mind to influence them to join, regardless of where the Kanohi was placed. Krana on the other hand needed to have direct contact with the brain, and perhaps require a sentient mind to control. I doubt a Rahi would understand the commands of the Bohrok and Bahrag. But that's just my guess.

[The 1st Shadow]

I'm not entirely sure it would work the same. It seemed to me that Krana and Infected Masks used different methods to control the bearers. Infection is closer to a disease, worming its way into the victim's mind to influence them to join, regardless of where the Kanohi was placed. Krana on the other hand needed to have direct contact with the brain, and perhaps require a sentient mind to control. I doubt a Rahi would understand the commands of the Bohrok and Bahrag. But that's just my guess.

The krana did the thinking. No reason for the rahi to understand it. The way I look at it, the krana hack into the central nervous system of a being and control them as a normal brain would. However, the mind inside is capable of fighting back, as was seen when Lewa fought off the Krana Za, with Onua's guidance. Because most rahi lack a coherent mind, they would be even less capable of fighting back, and so would fall slave to the krana completely.

Edited June 5, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[SPIRIT]

This topic makes me wonder what would happen if, say, a Hau Nuva were to be put on a Nui-Rama?

I don't think there are any Rahi who are able to use masks.  They sort of passively wore the infected masks, which allowed Makuta to control their minds.

 

That being said, I wonder if a Rahi could wear a living mask, like the Toa Inika's Kanohi.  Those seem to be a bit of a loophole in the rule of needing a certain mental discipline to use mask powers.

 

To answer the main topic, I don't see why a Krana wouldn't control a Rahi.  I don't think it's something we've ever seen, but I can't remember reading anything that said it couldn't happen.

[Thormen]

I wouldn't be surprised if this were the actual reason the whole Krana-can-control-Kanohi-bearers gimmick existed in the first place (the in-story reason of course, set-wise they wanted to sell collectables). The Matoran never should have been on the Island of Mata Nui and the Toa Mata should've quickly left of their own accord, so there really was no reason to expect the Bohrok would be hindered by those in their mission. What could've been expected is that Rahi would migrate to the Island of Mata Nui, so the Bohrok might want to repatriate said Rahi by controlling their minds. Come to think of it, that might even be the reason there are Rahi that can wear Kanohi in the first place...

[UnderscoreChronix]

Question: Why do (some) Rahi even have masks on them? 

[Owlexander]

Question: Why do (some) Rahi even have masks on them? 

 

Because why not?

[Thormen]

Question: Why do (some) Rahi even have masks on them?

As far as I know there's no known story reason. In reality they got Kanohi masks because those were the collectibles of 2001 and the first Rahi were released back then, but we never learned of a story reason.

[Irrie]

Question: Why do (some) Rahi even have masks on them?

Maybe in case the Makuta wanted to arm them in the future, they attached slots for the infected masks.

Edited June 5, 2015 by The Irrational Rock

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

Check out this page, second to last post.

 

 

This topic makes me wonder what would happen if, say, a Hau Nuva were to be put on a Nui-Rama?

 

I don't think there are any Rahi who are able to use masks.  They sort of passively wore the infected masks, which allowed Makuta to control their minds.

 

Not everyone can use a Kanohi Nuva, but anyone could wear one. I'm also sure it would still have the basic function of providing energy to a being (keeping Matoran from going comatose and keeping Toa from weakening). That said, Rahi aren't dependent on masks like Matoran, Toa and Turaga, and they can't use even regular masks, let alone Nuva masks.

 

That being said, I wonder if a Rahi could wear a living mask, like the Toa Inika's Kanohi.  Those seem to be a bit of a loophole in the rule of needing a certain mental discipline to use mask powers.

 

I don't think that had anything to do with mental discipline, it had more to to with learning how to use the mask. While the Toa Metru had trouble figuring out how to activate their mask powers, the Toa Inika got living, intelligent masks that could communicate how to use them.

 

 

Question: Why do (some) Rahi even have masks on them?

 

Maybe in case the Makuta wanted to arm them in the future, they attaches slots for the infected masks.

 

That's a good theory, one I haven't thought of and one that I've never seen mentioned before.

[Regitnui]

The repatriation theory makes sense, because ninety percent of rahi would run away from the Bohrok rather than attempt to attack them. THose could be herded by bohrok and Va, The Muaka and other dangerous large creatures might need a little more persuasion.

[McNugget]

 

That being said, I wonder if a Rahi could wear a living mask, like the Toa Inika's Kanohi.  Those seem to be a bit of a loophole in the rule of needing a certain mental discipline to use mask powers.

 

I don't think that had anything to do with mental discipline, it had more to to with learning how to use the mask. While the Toa Metru had trouble figuring out how to activate their mask powers, the Toa Inika got living, intelligent masks that could communicate how to use them.

From Biosector1

 

Physically, Matoran are small in stature, but they are strong and very enduring at heart. They are dependent upon the wearing of their powerless Kanohi, without which they will weaken and be rendered comatose. They do not, however, have the mental discipline needed to use the power of a Great or Noble Mask. Matoran have an innate connection to an element, and can manifest the ability in a small way.

I think the Reason they had trouble with their mask powers is because they had just become Toa, and so they hadn't yet really had the mental discipline yet. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by Dragon11603

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

 

 

That being said, I wonder if a Rahi could wear a living mask, like the Toa Inika's Kanohi.  Those seem to be a bit of a loophole in the rule of needing a certain mental discipline to use mask powers.

 

I don't think that had anything to do with mental discipline, it had more to to with learning how to use the mask. While the Toa Metru had trouble figuring out how to activate their mask powers, the Toa Inika got living, intelligent masks that could communicate how to use them.

From Biosector1

 

Physically, Matoran are small in stature, but they are strong and very enduring at heart. They are dependent upon the wearing of their powerless Kanohi, without which they will weaken and be rendered comatose. They do not, however, have the mental discipline needed to use the power of a Great or Noble Mask. Matoran have an innate connection to an element, and can manifest the ability in a small way.

I think the Reason they had trouble with their mask powers is because they had just become Toa, and so they hadn't yet really had the mental discipline yet. 

 

 

What I said was the living Kanohi didn't bypass the mental discipline thing, not that masks have nothing to do with mental discipline.

 

Also, Greg has stated outright the Toa Metru simply didn't know how to activate their masks.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese

[evil_jaga_genius]

You know, I don't think Krana are dependent on the whole mental-discipline thing like Kanohi are.  The Bohrok are just mechs that the Krana pilot about, and they get superpowers depending on the Krana inside, so they couldn't possibly use any mental discipline or anything.  So if a Rahi actually started wearing Krana, maybe they would get the superpowers of the Krana as well.

 

(Though it seems that the Rahi do have some characteristics of their masks.  The Tarakava wore Pakaris and Kakamas, and were some of the strongest and speediest Rahi around.  The Muaka had a Hau, and in MNOG, it has the highest health of all the Rahi in the ending minigame.  And the Nui-Rama which I believe have compound eyes use Rurus, masks affecting vision.)

 

It's probably a good thing we didn't hear about this happening in canon.  Imagine a Tarakava using a Krana Vu to fly... them silly bamboo disks aren't gonna do a thing.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

Mental discipline would have nothing to do with it. Rahi don't have enough mental discipline to use masks, but the infected masks possessed them regardless. As for Krana, they don't need mental discipline because they override the wearer's mental functions anyway.

[bonesiii]

I don't think it would make sense to limit the Krana's effectiveness because one major reason to design Bohrok that way is in case aliens find the island and don't get scared off. (A nonlethal option to deal with them, even if they might be absorbed permanently into the swarm to preserve secrecy.)

 

That would seem to me to fall apart if even Rahi ('alien' but native to the same giant the Bohrok are carried in) could foil this.

 

Of course, Lewa was able to foil it himself, but it seems to me that's through strength of mind, and Rahi would more likely be even weaker minds. Unless it's a type without much of a mind to control (a plot device that was used at one point in-story I believe). So maybe some alien island invaders could break the control (but probably after going back to the nests and the giant leaving their planet), but Rahi? Doubt it.

[fishers64]

Pretty sure the reason the masks were on the Rahi was so that Makuta could affect said mask and control them. The Rahi were Makuta's creations after all, so it makes sense. 

 

Other than that, not sure that a Bohrok would try to Krana a Rahi in the first place. If they were getting in the way, they probably wouldn't do mind-control and probably just fry/drown/crush etc them. 

[Thormen]

Maybe in case the Makuta wanted to arm them in the future, they attached slots for the infected masks.

 

Pretty sure the reason the masks were on the Rahi was so that Makuta could affect said mask and control them. The Rahi were Makuta's creations after all, so it makes sense.

The Makuta already had a power of Rahi Control, why would they go out of their way to create another option for them to control the Rahi? And a less effective option as well, since not every Rahi wears Kanohi.

 

Other than that, not sure that a Bohrok would try to Krana a Rahi in the first place. If they were getting in the way, they probably wouldn't do mind-control and probably just fry/drown/crush etc them.

Well if they followed their mission correctly they should chase the Rahi back into the Matoran Universe, since that's where they were in the 'before-time'. But we don't know if their AI was sophisticated enough to account for that.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

The Makuta already had a power of Rahi Control, why would they go out of their way to create another option for them to control the Rahi? And a less effective option as well, since not every Rahi wears Kanohi.

 

I think that power's dependent on range. If a Makuta infects a Kanohi, they can control a Rahi from pretty much wherever,

[Thormen]

 

The Makuta already had a power of Rahi Control, why would they go out of their way to create another option for them to control the Rahi? And a less effective option as well, since not every Rahi wears Kanohi.

 

I think that power's dependent on range. If a Makuta infects a Kanohi, they can control a Rahi from pretty much wherever,

 

True, but that's where Kraata come in. As we saw in 2003, the Makuta was perfectly capable of having his Kraata move all over the Island of Mata Nui. In 2010 he was even capable of controlling Rahkshi down on Bara Magna while his Antidermis was all the way up in the head of the Great Spirit Robot.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

 

 

The Makuta already had a power of Rahi Control, why would they go out of their way to create another option for them to control the Rahi? And a less effective option as well, since not every Rahi wears Kanohi.

 

I think that power's dependent on range. If a Makuta infects a Kanohi, they can control a Rahi from pretty much wherever,

 

True, but that's where Kraata come in. As we saw in 2003, the Makuta was perfectly capable of having his Kraata move all over the Island of Mata Nui. In 2010 he was even capable of controlling Rahkshi down on Bara Magna while his Antidermis was all the way up in the head of the Great Spirit Robot.

 

 

Kraata are different from Rahi though, because they're essentially part of a Makuta. This means there's a chance the range of control is farther than that of the Rahi Control power. There's also the fact that Teridax was in control of the Great Spirit Robot, which was far more powerful than his original body (or any of the other ones he possessed), so it could have amplified his control over Kraata.

 

There is a problem, though: the Kraata inside the Bara Magna Rahkshi were, as I recall, not his Kraata. The robot was incapable of producing Kraata, and he kept a small population of other Makuta alive and forced them to make Kraata for him (and killed them when he had enough).

 

However, this is getting off-topic. We now know that Krana can possess Rahi, but not if Rahi are worth possessing. Since a lot of Rahi are savage and powerful, they would probably be a big help in terms of destruction. For example, a Kane-Ra could ram things to level the island. But other Rahi such as the Hoi/Shore Turtle, are peaceful creatures that can barely harm anything (despite the fact that Teridax infected several of them).

Edited June 6, 2015 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese

[Thormen]

Kraata are different from Rahi though, because they're essentially part of a Makuta. This means there's a chance the range of control is farther than that of the Rahi Control power.

That's not what I meant, I meant the Makuta could've used his Kraata of Rahi Control to control the Rahi on the Island of Mata Nui in 2001, and that this option was available for the Makuta species in general. So I don't think it's likely they would've felt the need to specifically add 'infected mask slots' to control them if they already had the power to control them.

 

There's also the fact that Teridax was in control of the Great Spirit Robot, which was far more powerful than his original body (or any of the other ones he possessed), so it could have amplified his control over Kraata.

That's true, although I'm wondering why the Great Beings would outfit the Great Spirit Robot with an amplifier for the Kraata-control power if Mata Nui doesn't make Kraata anyway. It could of course be in anticipation of the Makuta's destiny of taking over the GSR, but then it still seems to be useless regarding the actual job that the Makuta was supposed to perform (reforming Spherus Magna), which again begs the question why the Great Beings would've built such a feature in the GSR.

 

There is a problem, though: the Kraata inside the Bara Magna Rahkshi were, as I recall, not his Kraata. The robot was incapable of producing Kraata, and he kept a small population of other Makuta alive and forced them to make Kraata for him (and killed them when he had enough).

Really? Didn't know that. In that case the question is of course where these Makuta were kept (how close to the battlefield), but since we already know that the Makuta was capable of controlling Kraata all over the Island of Mata Nui, we basically know he could've used that to control the Rahi in 2001. Of course the Makuta might want to be able to control Rahi in other situations as well, but in actuality we don't know what the range of their Kraata-controlling power or their infected-Rahi-controlling power is.

 

However, this is getting off-topic. We now know that Krana can possess Rahi, but not if Rahi are worth possessing. Since a lot of Rahi are savage and powerful, they would probably be a big help in terms of destruction. For example, a Kane-Ra could ram things to level the island. But other Rahi such as the Hoi/Shore Turtle, are peaceful creatures that can barely harm anything (despite the fact that Teridax infected several of them).

Well that's why I suggested the Bohrok could return the Rahi to the Matoran Universe that way. What you say is possible as well, but I think the Bohrok themselves are much more capable of bulldozing the landscape than Rahi (they were certainly described that way in 2002!).

 

I think it's also possible the Rahi are able to wear Kanohi because the Makuta could outfit them with infected Kanohi, but that still leaves the above questions unexplained and leaves us with the question why the Krana are able to control Kanohi-bearers. If we say however that the Krana and the Kanohi-bearing Rahi are essentially 'made' for each other, we can fix all of that together, so that seems more likely to me.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

That's true, although I'm wondering why the Great Beings would outfit the Great Spirit Robot with an amplifier for the Kraata-control power if Mata Nui doesn't make Kraata anyway. It could of course be in anticipation of the Makuta's destiny of taking over the GSR, but then it still seems to be useless regarding the actual job that the Makuta was supposed to perform (reforming Spherus Magna), which again begs the question why the Great Beings would've built such a feature in the GSR.

 

I didn't mean the robot would amplify that specific power, I meant that the robot is much more powerful than a Makuta in general, so everything the Makuta could do while in the robot would be more powerful as a result (maybe).

 

As for Kraata with Rahi Control power, it seems less efficient because Kraata are really only in full control of their powers at stage 6, and stage 6 Kraata are rarer than lower stage Kraata because it takes time to reach that stage. Teridax would also probably want to control a Rahi directly rather than through a Kraata.

 

There's also the issue that the Turaga hunted down and captured almost all Kraata on Mata Nui and sealed them in jars in a cave in Po-Wahi. After that, Teridax didn't really make any more Kraata until Takua found the Mask of Light. Creating a Kraata also temporarily weakens a Makuta, so it would be better to create a few Kraata to infect tons of masks masks rather than a ton of Kraata to use their Rahi Control powers.

 

Finally, keep in mind that Rahi Control powers don't work on Matoran/Toa/Turaga, but Infected Masks do. This gives infecting masks in general an advantage.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese

[Thormen]

I didn't mean the robot would amplify that specific power, I meant that the robot is much more powerful than a Makuta in general, so everything the Makuta could do while in the robot would be more powerful as a result (maybe).

Well, maybe indeed, but it seems very unlikely to me. The fact that person A is in general more powerful than person B doesn't mean that person A is better at everything that person B can do. For example if person A is better at playing football than person B, that doesn't mean person A is necessarily faster than person B, even though that's an important skill in football. In BIONICLE terms, the Makuta is more powerful than Tahu, but that doesn't mean the Makuta has better control over the element of fire.

 

As for Kraata with Rahi Control power, it seems less efficient because Kraata are really only in full control of their powers at stage 6, and stage 6 Kraata are rarer than lower stage Kraata because it takes time to reach that stage. Teridax would also probably want to control a Rahi directly rather than through a Kraata.

Good point. Going over the Kraata Variations page on BionicleSector01, I'd say the first two stages of Rahi Control are pretty useless, but starting with stage 3 the Kraata are useful for the Makuta's 2001 plan. Interestingly, the Kraata of Insect Control are significantly more powerful (I'd say starting at stage 2) and they play a role here as well. I think we can assume the Makuta at least had the power level of a level 6 Kraata (but probably a higher power level), which means he was capable of summoning insects from all over the Island of Mata Nui to fight for him, controlling every Rahi in the near area and controlling an entire hive of Nui-Rama.

 

There's also the issue that the Turaga hunted down and captured almost all Kraata on Mata Nui and sealed them in jars in a cave in Po-Wahi. After that, Teridax didn't really make any more Kraata until Takua found the Mask of Light. Creating a Kraata also temporarily weakens a Makuta, so it would be better to create a few Kraata to infect tons of masks masks rather than a ton of Kraata to use their Rahi Control powers.

Yes it temporarily weakens the Makuta, but I don't think it weakens him to such an extent that it would actually be a problem. In fact, Kraata seem to be very expendable: when the Turaga were capturing most of them, the Makuta apparently preferred making new ones instead of outfitting the ones he had with Rahkshi armor so the Turaga couldn't catch them anymore. And when you say 'a ton of Kraata', that figure isn't comparable to the 'tons of masks' they had to infect, since you need many more infected masks to control the same amount of Rahi that a few high-level Kraata could control. In fact, I would argue the Makuta needed only 12 level 6 Kraata of Rahi Control at all: one for each Koro and one for each Toa. He certainly had ample opportunity to develop those in the 1000 years they were on the Island of Mata Nui.

 

Finally, keep in mind that Rahi Control powers don't work on Matoran/Toa/Turaga, but Infected Masks do. This gives infecting masks in general an advantage.

Sure, but how is that relevant? That doesn't give the Makuta an incentive to put Kanohi masks on Rahi.

[bonesiii]

I think that power's dependent on range. If a Makuta infects a Kanohi, they can control a Rahi from pretty much wherever,

True, but that's where Kraata come in.

Where Kraata normally come in is infecting the masks left preemptively on Rahi, other than in forming Rahkshi. Kraata, being sluglike, aren't great to have around warriors to use Rahi Control power on Rahi to use as weapons. Especially since the Kraata can only have one power, so they'd need other Kraata to defend that Kraata. When one Kraata of any power can infect any Rahi's mask and have that Rahi work as Makuta's puppet while nestled safe in some distant cave.

 

I had to skim a lot of what came after, because most of it seems to be off-topic. This is about Krana, not Kraata. It seems like you're trying to drive at a simplified version of the story, which is great, but mask infection is consistent with the nature of antidermis, so it makes sense the Makuta would invent this usage and since they make Rahi, include masks on many as another option, and mask infection was definitely imagined in 2001 -- I don't know that Rahkshi were. The purpose for the invention of Rahkshi was to have more cool sets, and Kraata for the disabling option for that round of sets which was still a big theme at the time, etc. (And which was started by the masks!) The story had to work with all of those things.

[fishers64]

Infected masks would put the Rahi directly under Makuta's control, whereas Rahi Control Kraata have minds of their own and control their Rahi using their own minds. 

 

The control is less direct - first Makuta has to direct the Kraata (which may or may not listen) to control the Rahi, and then has to give the Kraata commands to give to the Rahi. It's slower and less efficient, versus in infected mask which would allow the Makuta to control the Rahi directly. The strength of the control is tied to the will of the Kraata, not the Makuta. 

[Thormen]

Infected masks would put the Rahi directly under Makuta's control, whereas Rahi Control Kraata have minds of their own and control their Rahi using their own minds. 

 

The control is less direct - first Makuta has to direct the Kraata (which may or may not listen) to control the Rahi, and then has to give the Kraata commands to give to the Rahi. It's slower and less efficient, versus in infected mask which would allow the Makuta to control the Rahi directly. The strength of the control is tied to the will of the Kraata, not the Makuta.

Yes, Cheesy Mac N Cheese pointed that out as well, but I don't see why it's a problem that the control is less direct. The Rahi were just there to harass the Matoran and Toa, the Makuta could easily have left that to the Kraata. And since we're talking about high-level Kraata anyway: at stage 5 Kraata know the Makuta's will and at stage 6 they are constantly in communication with him. Doesn't seem like anything could go wrong there.

[fishers64]

 

Infected masks would put the Rahi directly under Makuta's control, whereas Rahi Control Kraata have minds of their own and control their Rahi using their own minds. 

 

The control is less direct - first Makuta has to direct the Kraata (which may or may not listen) to control the Rahi, and then has to give the Kraata commands to give to the Rahi. It's slower and less efficient, versus in infected mask which would allow the Makuta to control the Rahi directly. The strength of the control is tied to the will of the Kraata, not the Makuta.

Yes, Cheesy Mac N Cheese pointed that out as well, but I don't see why it's a problem that the control is less direct. The Rahi were just there to harass the Matoran and Toa, the Makuta could easily have left that to the Kraata. And since we're talking about high-level Kraata anyway: at stage 5 Kraata know the Makuta's will and at stage 6 they are constantly in communication with him. Doesn't seem like anything could go wrong there.

 

It takes awhile for a Kraata to go through all of the stages and reach stage 5 or 6. Infected masks are rather quick and instantaneous, and that timeliness is desirable when there's a bunch of Rahi on a rampage in a village and you need to stop it right away. 

 

That would explain why Makuta put masks on Rahi, but maybe not this particular instance. It could also be that was what Teridax was used to as a method, so he did it that way. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

Yes, Cheesy Mac N Cheese pointed that out as well, but I don't see why it's a problem that the control is less direct.

Well, Rahkshi don't seem to be great at thinking in more subtle ways like Makuta can -- they're kind of like blunt blades. They smash and destroy. With some strategy, yeah, but Makuta can be much cleverer in their strategy as to how they use the Rahi being controlled.

 

Also, in 2003's use, the Toa had already shown they could handle Rahi reasonably well. Having a Rahkshi who's otherwise mostly powerless (other than physical power, flying, and infecting masks possibly, and maybe something else I'm forgetting lol) wouldn't be much better, especially if you take away all Kraata's ability to infect masks.

 

But again, how is this relevant to Krana? We need to keep it connected to that or take it to another topic. Krana can IMO probably control any mind -- whether they normally have masks or not. Aliens wouldn't be expected to have masks.

[Thormen]

It takes awhile for a Kraata to go through all of the stages and reach stage 5 or 6.

Sure, but I was always under the impression that it took a lot shorter than 1000 years (although I don't know whether we've been given any figures about this).

 

Infected masks are rather quick and instantaneous, and that timeliness is desirable when there's a bunch of Rahi on a rampage in a village and you need to stop it right away.

Why would he need to stop it right away? Or are you talking about Makuta controlling Rahi in general, throughout all of history? I can see the logic behind it, but I wonder why a Makuta in such a case wouldn't just use their own Rahi Control power. Of course it can be argued that the Brotherhood anticipated that there might be a situation where they would need to be able to control Rahi directly without being in range to use their Rahi Control power, but it's seem a stretch to me given the fact that we don't (as far as I know) actually know whether the range of the infected Kanohi is greater than that of the Makuta's Rahi Control power.

 

That would explain why Makuta put masks on Rahi, but maybe not this particular instance. It could also be that was what Teridax was used to as a method, so he did it that way.

Yeah I also think the Makuta were used to creating their Rahi so they could wear Kanohi, but that still begs the question where the tradition started.

 

But again, how is this relevant to Krana? We need to keep it connected to that or take it to another topic.

I'm thinking that not only are Krana capable of controlling Rahi, but that that's the whole reason why Krana can replace Kanohi and why certain Rahi wear Kanohi in the first place.

[fishers64]

 

Infected masks are rather quick and instantaneous, and that timeliness is desirable when there's a bunch of Rahi on a rampage in a village and you need to stop it right away.

Why would he need to stop it right away? Or are you talking about Makuta controlling Rahi in general, throughout all of history? I can see the logic behind it, but I wonder why a Makuta in such a case wouldn't just use their own Rahi Control power. Of course it can be argued that the Brotherhood anticipated that there might be a situation where they would need to be able to control Rahi directly without being in range to use their Rahi Control power, but it's seem a stretch to me given the fact that we don't (as far as I know) actually know whether the range of the infected Kanohi is greater than that of the Makuta's Rahi Control power.

Yeah, just in general. And we do know that the infected mask range was greater than the rahi control power range, because Greg told us.

 

6. Why did makuta use infected masks if he has rahi control power?

 

6) Question of range. Infected masks can work at a much greater range than Rahi control can.

 

 

EDIT: I doubt Greg thought of the Rahi control Kraata thing. Another problem I thought of: for a Kraata to control a Rahi, it has to be pretty close to the Rahi its controlling. So the Rahi would be forced to live together in control groups, limiting their effectiveness. If Makuta is controlling the whole thing, he can have better control of which Rahi attack where. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by fishers64

[Thormen]

Yeah, just in general. And we do know that the infected mask range was greater than the rahi control power range, because Greg told us.

 

6. Why did makuta use infected masks if he has rahi control power?

 

6) Question of range. Infected masks can work at a much greater range than Rahi control can.

 

I see, didn't know about that quote I still think it's less likely the Makuta would've specifically gone out of their way to create yet another method for them to control Rahi, even if the method could cover situations that they couldn't cover with their Rahi Control power. But it's definitely not impossible.

 

EDIT: I doubt Greg thought of the Rahi control Kraata thing. Another problem I thought of: for a Kraata to control a Rahi, it has to be pretty close to the Rahi its controlling. So the Rahi would be forced to live together in control groups, limiting their effectiveness. If Makuta is controlling the whole thing, he can have better control of which Rahi attack where.

You're again assuming low-level Kraata. A stage 6 Kraata of Rahi Control has absolute control over every Rahi in the near area, so it could easily operate alone.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

I think what bonesiii said is right. We don't know that the story team even assigned Makuta Rahi Control, or any other Rahkshi powers in the first place, because Rahkshi and Kraata didn't exist in 2001 (at least not in set form, but most characters tend not to be created until they have a set). It's entirely possible, likely even, that the concept of the Rahkshi powers didn't exist until 2003 (or 2002, because that's when 2003 was being planned).

 

Anyway, this long conversation has nothing to do with the actual topic. Rahi can be controlled by Krana, we now know. We don't know that Rahi would be effective in leveling the island, but like I said earlier, it depends on species. A Husi couldn't really do much, but Manas could probably cause some damage to the island's features. Ussal might be good, tunneling and collapsing surface structures. We don't know if Ussal are (canonically) capable of wearing masks, though. Tales of the Tohunga had Ussal enemies, but they didn't seem to be wearing masks, just wild Ussal, perhaps of a different breed. Legend of Mata Nui screenshots show differently designed Ussal wearing masks, but most things in that game have drifted into dubious canonicity due to it being cancelled.

 

Then there's the likelihood of Bohrok actually flinging Krana at a Rahi at all. They would only attack the Rahi if it were in their way and preventing them from doing their job. However, predatory Rahi might see the Bohrok as a threat (or prey) and attack them. What's a great way to stop a foe from attacking? Fling a Krana at it. It prevents the attack and has one advantage over destroying the Rahi: it gives you a new ally. How likely is it that a Rahi attacks a Bohrok? Muaka have been known to eat Rahkshi, maybe they can eat Bohrok. Do they just like metallic meals in general?

 

EDIT: Looking at what I just said, we don't even know if a being needs to be able to wear a mask to wear a Krana. Does the Krana need to be attached to the host's face? Imagine a Muaka with a Krana in the middle of its forehead.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese

[Thormen]

I think what bonesiii said is right. We don't know that the story team even assigned Makuta Rahi Control, or any other Rahkshi powers in the first place, because Rahkshi and Kraata didn't exist in 2001 (at least not in set form, but most characters tend not to be created until they have a set). It's entirely possible, likely even, that the concept of the Rahkshi powers didn't exist until 2003 (or 2002, because that's when 2003 was being planned).

How is this relevant? I know the set designers didn't have the 42 Rahkshi powers in the back of their heads when they were designing the 2001 Rahi sets. I was saying that, in-story, the Brotherhood of Makuta would have known that they were capable of Rahi Control already when they were designing their Rahi, making it a little redundant to add Kanohi just so they could have another way of controlling Rahi.

 

Anyway, this long conversation has nothing to do with the actual topic. Rahi can be controlled by Krana, we now know. We don't know that Rahi would be effective in leveling the island, but like I said earlier, it depends on species. A Husi couldn't really do much, but Manas could probably cause some damage to the island's features. Ussal might be good, tunneling and collapsing surface structures. We don't know if Ussal are (canonically) capable of wearing masks, though. Tales of the Tohunga had Ussal enemies, but they didn't seem to be wearing masks, just wild Ussal, perhaps of a different breed. Legend of Mata Nui screenshots show differently designed Ussal wearing masks, but most things in that game have drifted into dubious canonicity due to it being cancelled.

 

Then there's the likelihood of Bohrok actually flinging Krana at a Rahi at all. They would only attack the Rahi if it were in their way and preventing them from doing their job. However, predatory Rahi might see the Bohrok as a threat (or prey) and attack them. What's a great way to stop a foe from attacking? Fling a Krana at it. It prevents the attack and has one advantage over destroying the Rahi: it gives you a new ally. How likely is it that a Rahi attacks a Bohrok? Muaka have been known to eat Rahkshi, maybe they can eat Bohrok. Do they just like metallic meals in general?

My point was the Krana's power of controlling Kanohi bearers when on the Kanohi slot was probably created so the Bohrok could herd the Rahi back into the Matoran Universe, and that is entirely related to the OP's question. There's no need for the Bohrok to use the Rahi to demolish the Island of Mata Nui, all they need to do is repatriate the Rahi. The Bohrok themselves, when operating together, are extremely capable of demolishing the Island of Mata Nui, they really don't need any Rahi to help them out.

 

EDIT: Looking at what I just said, we don't even know if a being needs to be able to wear a mask to wear a Krana. Does the Krana need to be attached to the host's face? Imagine a Muaka with a Krana in the middle of its forehead.

That's a good point. I was assuming the Krana need to attach to the Kanohi slots since that's what the sets do and because of their similarity with infected Kanohi. We know Muaka can be controlled via the thing on their shoulder, because that's where the infected Kanohi were put, so it seems reasonable to me that Krana would control them in the same place. But it's true we don't know that for sure.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

What I said about Kraata powers potentially not existing in 2001 is entirely relevant. Sets come before story. If the story team didn't think of Kraata and their powers until 2003, then there's no way Teridax could have used them in-story two years earlier.

 

As for Rahi being designed to wear Krana and help with the cleansing, the Makuta didn't even know the purpose of the Bohrok until Mutran gained the knowledge of the universe from Tren Krom, which was a long time after the started making Rahi.

[Thormen]

What I said about Kraata powers potentially not existing in 2001 is entirely relevant. Sets come before story. If the story team didn't think of Kraata and their powers until 2003, then there's no way Teridax could have used them in-story two years earlier.

Huh? Of course he could. The fact that the story team hadn't thought of Kraata at the time we saw the infected Rahi saga doesn't mean that in-story the Kraata didn't exist during that saga. We know there were Rahkshi around during the Metru Nui saga, which precedes the infected Rahi saga in-story, so we know that Kraata already existed during that time.

 

By your logic the Kraata couldn't have infected the Kanohi in 2001 either, since the Kraata sets were only released in 2003. But we know that the Kraata did infect those Kanohi since Whenua explicitly said so. Your logic also makes the Metru Nui saga impossible, since the Turaga sets came before the Toa Metru sets therefore the Turaga couldn't have originally been the Toa Metru. Same goes for the Core War: the sets of all those warriors that fought there weren't released until 2009, so the Core War can't possibly have happened before the rest of the BIONICLE saga, even though we know it did.

 

As for Rahi being designed to wear Krana and help with the cleansing, the Makuta didn't even know the purpose of the Bohrok until Mutran gained the knowledge of the universe from Tren Krom, which was a long time after the started making Rahi.

I'm not saying the Makuta consciously were creating Rahi so they could be controlled by Bohrok, I'm saying that that could be how the tradition of creating Rahi with Kanohi started. The Great Beings created the first Rahi, it's very well possible that the Makuta were working off those examples and created Rahi with Kanohi because that's how the Great Beings did it. Another possibility is that Mata Nui told them to do so, since he probably gave some instructions regarding their duty of creating Rahi.

 

Also I don't think they need to know the full purpose of the Bohrok to know that the Bohrok have Krana that can control Kanohi bearers. Vakama knew that as well, as did basically everyone on Metru Nui, and they definitely didn't know the true purpose of the Bohrok and the true nature of the Matoran Universe.

 

(And again: I don't think the Rahi were supposed to help with cleansing the Island of Mata Nui, I think they were supposed to just go back into the MU.)