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Density Control + Shapeshifting = ?


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I was looking at BS01's Kraata Variations page when I realized something. According to the page, stage 6 Kraata can't shapeshift to change their own mass. That's consistent with how Makuta shapeshifting works--they need to absorb things to increase their mass. But then how does Density Control, another Kraata power, work? Stage 6 Density Control Kraata have "[c]omplete control over own density," and density is mass per unit volume, so by increasing their density aren't Makuta by definition increasing their mass? In that case, why couldn't Terry have taken on his Ultimate Dume form without killing Nidhiki and co. by 1) shapeshifting into Ultimate Dume and then 2) increasing his density -> his mass?

Clearly I'm way overthinking this. :P

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Hm. For once, I'm stumped. This sounds like it would involve more scientific experience than I've had, that's for sure. :P Still, it is an interesting point.

 

My guess is that shapeshifting focuses more on the aspect of altering their appearance than anything else, while density control is more, as fishers pointed out (kapura'd :P ) focuses more on compacting and spreading out your molecular structure.

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Density: How close molecules are to each other.

Mass: How heavy each molecule is.

Er, wrong. Mass is how many molecules there are (normally). You may be thinking of molecular mass in chemistry where they count up the number of protons, neutrons, and electrons to determine weight, but that's not the conventional way it's used. 

 

Density = mass/volume errybody

 

So if mass is constant and density changes, then that means volume has to change.

 

Which actually makes me want to ask... can Makuta and Kraata change their volume? Would that fall under shapeshifting? 

Yes, Makuta can change their volume to appear bigger. However, this is not without risks - see Rahi Nui battle (again :P) for an example. For a Makuta, it would normally fall under shapeshifting, although it could fall under Density Control. 

 

I view Density Control as less of a self-altering power than one that alters those around you. You make your ally less dense so the sword coming at him passes through. You make the your enemy's sword more dense so it's too heavy for him and he drops it. That kind of thing. 

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Yes, Makuta can change their volume to appear bigger. However, this is not without risks - see Rahi Nui battle (again :P) for an example. For a Makuta, it would normally fall under shapeshifting, although it could fall under Density Control.

 

I view Density Control as less of a self-altering power than one that alters those around you. You make your ally less dense so the sword coming at him passes through. You make the your enemy's sword more dense so it's too heavy for him and he drops it. That kind of thing.

You just said you consider density control to be about changing volume and not mass. If that's true, then you can't make a sword too heavy for your opponent. It has the same mass, and would only have a larger/smaller volume if you use density control on it.

 

~B~

Edited by Ballom
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Yes, Makuta can change their volume to appear bigger. However, this is not without risks - see Rahi Nui battle (again :P) for an example. For a Makuta, it would normally fall under shapeshifting, although it could fall under Density Control.

 

I view Density Control as less of a self-altering power than one that alters those around you. You make your ally less dense so the sword coming at him passes through. You make the your enemy's sword more dense so it's too heavy for him and he drops it. That kind of thing.

You just said you consider density control to be about changing volume and not mass. If that's true, then you can't make a sword too heavy for your opponent. It has the same mass, and would only have a larger/smaller volume if you use density control on it.

 

~B~

 

I stand corrected. 

 

Although, admittedly the canon power is somewhat vague and could allow for adding more mass, but since the Makuta cannot add mass when they shift, I'd think it would be volume. Otherwise said Makuta could could use his Density Control to add mass, then shift, thereby adding mass to the shapeshifted form. 

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Although, admittedly the canon power is somewhat vague and could allow for adding more mass, but since the Makuta cannot add mass when they shift, I'd think it would be volume. Otherwise said Makuta could could use his Density Control to add mass, then shift, thereby adding mass to the shapeshifted form.

Only being able to change volume would get around the problem, but based around BS01's descriptions (which were taken straight from official material AFAIK) it seems like it can go both ways:

 

Stage 1: Can briefly increase density to resist physical blows.

Stage 2: Can focus density to a hardness of solid Protodermis, becoming almost impervious to harm.

Stage 3: Can decrease density for enhanced speed and agility.

Stage 4: Has the power to become momentarily intangible.
Stage 5: Has the ability to pass through matter at will.
Stage 6: Complete control over own density and that of any object in physical contact.
 
Increasing your density to take hits seems like you're increasing your mass, and passing through matter (intangibility) seems like decreasing your mass. But you're right, IIRC the Rahi Nui (and Krika's death I think?) both involve increasing volume. I mean, maybe Kraata increase their density in one part of their body and have to counterbalance it by decreasing their density in another part so their mass stays constant, but that wouldn't explain intangibility....
 
So maybe "complete control over your own density" means being able to change mass and volume? Density=mass/volume so for "complete control" it'd make sense to be able to control both variables.
 
Or maybe Makuta can control their mass but Density Control requires constant focus? All the Kraata use cases seem to be temporary, unlike shapeshifting which is permanent. So a shapeshifting Makuta could increase his/her mass with Density Control but it'd be easier just to absorb mass instead (and I think I read somewhere that Makuta shapeshifting takes a while, in which case they wouldn't be shapeshifting for quick fights or what have you, so they couldn't maintain their focus long enough for Density Control to be helpful there). The exceptions are the Rahi Nui, which I think used the Kanoka Enlarge power so Makuta powers don't really apply, and Krika, but his Density Control powers went berserk when Gorast used her Felnas on him so he wasn't in control of his power anyway.
Edited by Infrared
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I can't imagine a Kraata becoming the size of a building to become a gas, and mass must stay constant, so perhaps the average density of the kraata stays constant, but the molecules within it can change positions.

For example,

 

 

Stage 1: Can briefly increase density to resist physical blows.

Stage 2: Can focus density to a hardness of solid Protodermis, becoming almost impervious to harm.

Stage 3: Can decrease density for enhanced speed and agility.

Stage 4: Has the power to become momentarily intangible.
Stage 5: Has the ability to pass through matter at will.
Stage 6: Complete control over own density and that of any object in physical contact.

Stage 1 and 2 could be done by shifting more matter to where the impact takes place, making the kraata/makuta/rahkshi much more dense there, at the cost of making a nearby area softer.

However, when the whole body must be less/more dense for the power to work, like with intangibility, this idea breaks down.

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The thing is, due to the electromagnetic force reducing your density should have hardly any effect on intangibility. The way the power is set up, it seems like the user isn't changing the number of atoms in them, but the SIZE of the atoms. When the atoms are enlarged, the user has more mass and more resilience, when they are diminished the user has less mass and less cohesion, but is more likely to pass through other matter.

( The bunny slippers hiss and slither into the shadows. ) -Takuaka: Toa of Time

What if the Toa you know best were not destined to be? Interchange: The epic begins

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The thing is, due to the electromagnetic force reducing your density should have hardly any effect on intangibility. The way the power is set up, it seems like the user isn't changing the number of atoms in them, but the SIZE of the atoms. When the atoms are enlarged, the user has more mass and more resilience, when they are diminished the user has less mass and less cohesion, but is more likely to pass through other matter.

The idea is that as the molecules become further apart, you become more like a gas, to the extent that you can pass through gaps in solids between molecules. Of course it couldn't practically work without killing the user and the forces between molecules, the but the idea still works. I think we all agree the number of molecules must be constant, as mass must be constant.

Enlarging the atoms is an interesting idea, but it would not increase mass as you suggest. Partly because Infrared said so when he originally posted, and partly because making individual atoms larger doesn't increase their mass without adding extra neutrons, but you can't get matter out of nowhere, right? (and it would result in unstable atoms and radioactivity)

Even if mass were constant and only the distance between the nucleus and the electron convergence layer was increased, it still wouldn't make the material stronger, but the intermolecular chaos would be pretty entertaining.

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The way I see it is:

 

Density control only allows you to temporarily gain or lose mass. Once you relax the power, you return to your usual mass. It can't be about changing your volume because then the power would just be a very limited form of the shapeshifting power.

 

I don't see a problem with having mass appear from nowhere, because isn't that how the majority of shooty-element Toa powers work anyway? (E.g. Gali's Nova Blast that conjured enough water out of nothingness to destroy all of Karzahni.)

Also, temporarily reducing the number of atoms in your body seems like it might allow intangibility, going by the same BIONICLE logic that a Kakama Nuva can make you intangible by vibrating a lot. :P

 

So to answer the question about Makuta, to shapeshift to a form with more mass you have to actually permanently obtain that mass, such as by absorbing it. The mass from the density power is no good because once you lose your focus, it goes away again, which probably wouldn't be very good for you if you had used it to build bits of your new body...

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Density control only allows you to temporarily gain or lose mass. Once you relax the power, you return to your usual mass. It can't be about changing your volume because then the power would just be a very limited form of the shapeshifting power.

That works I guess, mass can change but must revert.

 

I don't see a problem with having mass appear from nowhere, because isn't that how the majority of shooty-element Toa powers work anyway? (E.g. Gali's Nova Blast that conjured enough water out of nothingness to destroy all of Karzahni.)

I'm pretty sure Toa can't produce mass from nowhere. Gali has to draw moisture from the air to use her powers, she can't just create water.

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I don't see a problem with having mass appear from nowhere, because isn't that how the majority of shooty-element Toa powers work anyway? (E.g. Gali's Nova Blast that conjured enough water out of nothingness to destroy all of Karzahni.)

I'm pretty sure Toa can't produce mass from nowhere. Gali has to draw moisture from the air to use her powers, she can't just create water.

 

All Toa can create, manipulate, and absorb their elements...except for Psionics, which cannot absorb. 

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I don't see a problem with having mass appear from nowhere, because isn't that how the majority of shooty-element Toa powers work anyway? (E.g. Gali's Nova Blast that conjured enough water out of nothingness to destroy all of Karzahni.)

I'm pretty sure Toa can't produce mass from nowhere. Gali has to draw moisture from the air to use her powers, she can't just create water.

 

All Toa can create, manipulate, and absorb their elements...except for Psionics, which cannot absorb. 

 

Yep, you're right actually, they can create mass directly from energy.

Which I guess would be the same logic with density control. They can create mass, but not permanently as Votuko said.

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The idea is that as the molecules become further apart, you become more like a gas, to the extent that you can pass through gaps in solids between molecules. Of course it couldn't practically work without killing the user and the forces between molecules, the but the idea still works. I think we all agree the number of molecules must be constant, as mass must be constant.

 

 

Enlarging the atoms is an interesting idea, but it would not increase mass as you suggest. Partly because Infrared said so when he originally posted, and partly because making individual atoms larger doesn't increase their mass without adding extra neutrons, but you can't get matter out of nowhere, right? (and it would result in unstable atoms and radioactivity)

Even if mass were constant and only the distance between the nucleus and the electron convergence layer was increased, it still wouldn't make the material stronger, but the intermolecular chaos would be pretty entertaining.

That makes no sense, there are lots of solids completely impervious to all known gases. And if the number of molecules is constant, then the user would have to expand immensely to reduce density anyway.

 

And by making the atoms larger, I don't mean increasing the size of the electron clouds or adding more particles, but increasing the size of each individual subatomic particle. The electrons' orbit wouldn't change, because their mass is irrelevant compared to their charge, but the nucleus would be heavier, ultimately increasing the mass and density of the user. Then when the particle mass decreases, the chance of intersecting with other matter increases, but again, the size of the electron clouds doesn't change.

( The bunny slippers hiss and slither into the shadows. ) -Takuaka: Toa of Time

What if the Toa you know best were not destined to be? Interchange: The epic begins

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That makes no sense, there are lots of solids completely impervious to all known gases. And if the number of molecules is constant, then the user would have to expand immensely to reduce density anyway.

Yes, most solids are impervious to gasses because despite the space between the particles in a solid that molecules could fit through, strong nuclear force prevents the molecules passing too close to each other. If you completely removed strong nuclear force, gas would be able to pass through the spaces within a solid. This is what I meant when I said:

 

The idea is that as the molecules become further apart, you become more like a gas, to the extent that you can pass through gaps in solids between molecules. Of course it couldn't practically work without killing the user and the forces between molecules.

 

And by making the atoms larger, I don't mean increasing the size of the electron clouds or adding more particles, but increasing the size of each individual subatomic particle. The electrons' orbit wouldn't change, because their mass is irrelevant compared to their charge, but the nucleus would be heavier, ultimately increasing the mass and density of the user. Then when the particle mass decreases, the chance of intersecting with other matter increases, but again, the size of the electron clouds doesn't change.

Ok, I understand the idea now. But how does decreasing mass increase the chance of intersection? I assume you meant that decreasing mass decreases the chance of intersection. I don't think this would work because the nucleus of an atom is so small compared to an atom, and as you stated the electron orbits don't change, and therefore the atomic radius doesn't change, and the chance of intersecting is unchanged.

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