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Earth Does Not Equal Stone? How?


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No, that would have made the problems worse.
 
Then he could melt his opponents to liquid metal in a split second. Bad idea.
 
 
If we're going on fragmented rock bits in the dirt, we might also say lava is molten rock; therefore Pohatu is Toa of magma. Dirt is Dirt, and Stone is Stone.
 

Nuff' said.

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I still believe Onua should have been the Toa/Master of Metals. That would have solved a lot of problems.

The issue with that is that again, the Toa's elements were designed to be tied to their environments, and there just is no natural environment that is predominantly metal-based (at least, none that would occur on a tropical island).

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I still believe Onua should have been the Toa/Master of Metals. That would have solved a lot of problems.

The issue with that is that again, the Toa's elements were designed to be tied to their environments, and there just is no natural environment that is predominantly metal-based (at least, none that would occur on a tropical island).

 

I find that the underground and the mine-village fit nice metals :)

No, that would have made the problems worse.

 

Then he could melt his opponents to liquid metal in a split second. Bad idea.

Of course he shouldn't be able to manipulate others' bodies, just metals in the underground, maybe some weapons or finements. Like if the story was set in a human world.

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The way I understand it is this:

Toa of Stone literally only control stone. Straight stone.

Toa of Earth can control things like dirt and things like it. Sand is another example.

 

The question is best answered by asking another question.

What's the difference between a Toa of water and a toa of ice? lol

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Im seeing a lot of "Stone toa deal with the heavier stuff while Earth toa just kind of clump together dirt and mud"or something to that effect,but where does something like that come into play in the set design?g1 Pohatu was not especially well designed to lift or manipulate heavy rocks beyond kicking them, while Onua was the more well built looking,and even had the stance of someone ready to carry a load.the only time this seemed to make more sense was with the phantoka Pohatu design.the other times it was a less pronounced variation between all the characters.but now with g2,they reversed it again.in fact, Pohatu is now one of the smallest chatacters, while Onua is by far hulking over the others.

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The way I understand it is this:

Toa of Stone literally only control stone. Straight stone.

Toa of Earth can control things like dirt and things like it. Sand is another example.

Again, in G1, sand was controlled by neither. Otherwise you're correct. (G2 has it with Stone.)

 

stargatestatic, that's because Onua would be underground, due to his association with digging that comes naturally to the Earth element, and would need greater strength for the digging and for possibly lifting stones that might get in his way. (Precisely because he can't control them. It wouldn't really make sense to have the guy who can control stone need to lift them. :P) Pohatu would be aboveground and they focused him on running fast, as in through canyons, rock formations, etc. And playing soccer with boulders of course. :P But storywise, both were said to be quite strong.

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Actually I seem to recal Greg saying in that while the element lord of stone could not control sand Toa of stone could. But I could be remembering wrong.

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Actually I seem to recal Greg saying in that while the element lord of stone could not control sand Toa of stone could. But I could be remembering wrong.

Other way around; see quotes earlier in the topic. :)

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Everybody has pretty much said it, but I always saw it in a way for at least BIONICLE and Pokemon, was that stone was, well...rocks. Earth was dirt, mud and anything else. Something I did always find interesting was that Toa of Stone could not control sand, which are rock particles. 


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It's a very simple difference.

 

Earth:

gty_stock_dirt_in_hands_thg_130122_wblog

Stone:

three_throwing_stones01.jpg

Mind blown.

 

I still believe Onua should have been the Toa/Master of Metals. That would have solved a lot of problems.

That could've been cool, but many fans would've be disappointed in LEGO for changing that 'cause nostalgia.

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That's because the great beings thought it'd be best create a separate element when creating the Great Spirit robot. It's also why they substituted air for jungle in the core six elements.   

 

Edit: My mistake. I do not believe there is an element of sand in the matoran universe?

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Earth is the ground and the dirt, Stone is, well... Stone. As in rocks and boulders. And sand is just sand, bit in G2 stones and boulders are contributed to the desert, and you know what else is in the desert? Sand, and lots of it. So characters (such as pohatu) that control the desert boulders also control the sand itself.

That's because the great beings thought it'd be best create a separate element when creating the Great Spirit robot. It's also why they substituted air for jungle in the core six elements.   

 

Edit: My mistake. I do not believe there is an element of sand in the matoran universe?

 

Also, yes there was an Element of sand in G1 it was the element that the Vorox where a part of.

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Earth is the ground and the dirt, Stone is, well... Stone. As in rocks and boulders. And sand is just sand, bit in G2 stones and boulders are contributed to the desert, and you know what else is in the desert? Sand, and lots of it. So characters (such as pohatu) that control the desert boulders also control the sand itself.

 

Also sand is in reality just tiny rocks, and anyone who says otherwise is a disguised GB named Velika. :u

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On the topic of the Element Lords and who controls sand, the EL of Rock/Stone could not control sand--that honor was given to the EL of Sand. :) You know, since the Vorox and Zesk were of the SAND Tribe rather than Earth.

 

Why would the EL of Rock need to control sand when there was another guy made exclusively for that purpose?

 

(While I'm on it, what the heck was Greg's reasoning for introducing an Earth Tribe with their own Element Lord when all previous media showed only six, since the Iron Tribe disbanded before that experiment took place?)

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Why would the EL of Rock need to control sand when there was another guy made exclusively for that purpose?

 

on that note, why was there even another guy made for the sole purpose of controlling what amounts to a bunch of tiny rocks, when they had a guy who could control similar quantities of bigger rocks?

 

Because the tribes existed before the experiment, not the other way around. The tribes based their elemental affinity based on their chosen environment, and the Sand tribe selected the desert. Since there's not much else out there, they went with Sand, while the Skrall and related Agori lived in large, rocky mountain ranges.

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why is it every time i ask a question that relates to the story team i get an answer that relates to the great beings?

 

I seriously, honestly never cared to know why the GBs did things, that is completely unimportant. :t

Because you didn't specify the context your question was in. :) It's impossible to read minds through the internet, you know. :P

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Earth is the ground and the dirt, Stone is, well... Stone. As in rocks and boulders. And sand is just sand, bit in G2 stones and boulders are contributed to the desert, and you know what else is in the desert? Sand, and lots of it. So characters (such as pohatu) that control the desert boulders also control the sand itself.

That's because the great beings thought it'd be best create a separate element when creating the Great Spirit robot. It's also why they substituted air for jungle in the core six elements.   

 

Edit: My mistake. I do not believe there is an element of sand in the matoran universe?

 

Also, yes there was an Element of sand in G1 it was the element that the Vorox where a part of.

 

Yes, I know. I meant in the Matoran Universe though. 


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I prefer to think of elemental powers as more of an adaptation to one's surroundings than different power sets. The guys that live underground and the guys who live in the desert have different adaptations to these different biomes, but there is overlap in what they can do. Most biomes in the MU cause the main six elemental powers to develop, but unique areas cause Matoran/Toa/Turaga to gain less common elements like Plasma or Gravity.

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I prefer to think of elemental powers as more of an adaptation to one's surroundings than different power sets. The guys that live underground and the guys who live in the desert have different adaptations to these different biomes, but there is overlap in what they can do. Most biomes in the MU cause the main six elemental powers to develop, but unique areas cause Matoran/Toa/Turaga to gain less common elements like Plasma or Gravity.

This would make sense if we didn't already know that the GB's included the elements from the beginning. However, this is how the Spherus Magna tribes named themselves--after the primary feature of their chosen environment.

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Actually I seem to recal Greg saying in that while the element lord of stone could not control sand Toa of stone could. But I could be remembering wrong.

Other way around; see quotes earlier in the topic. :)

Wait the element lord of stone could control sand?! That makes no sense.

Waitwait... somehow I read the part I bolded here as "sand" (I must have assumed if you are talking about element lords controlling sand you would mean the sand one -- why bring up the stone one, since that would make the sand one pointless? :P). What I said is still correct about Toa of Stone not controlling sand in G1 though. :)

 

(While I'm on it, what the heck was Greg's reasoning for introducing an Earth Tribe with their own Element Lord when all previous media showed only six, since the Iron Tribe disbanded before that experiment took place?)

An Earth Tribe was originally planned for future content, but Bionicle was cancelled before they could include it. It appears that at first they were going to just not include it, hence some wordings in published stories and guides that made it sound like they were all that were ever made, but this was apparently never confirmed with the story team. It's pretty easy to just ignore any wording that makes it sound like "only" and say the other ELs (if there were more than Earth and the main six; it was left open last I heard) were just not present.

 

Also, they were made in shifts, so the six we saw were made at the same time and seem to have been the most important, similar to how the MU had six main elements but also some lesser elements.

 

on that note, why was there even another guy made for the sole purpose of controlling what amounts to a bunch of tiny rocks, when they had a guy who could control similar quantities of bigger rocks?

Presumably because sand has another distinctive environmental feel as opposed to larger rocks, just like how ice and water are the same substance but make very different environments (though previously they had used sand primarily in the Stone environments).

 

why is it every time i ask a question that relates to the story team i get an answer that relates to the great beings?

Nitpick, but your question was about SM tribes -- GBs didn't pick those as far as we know, in-story. :P It doesn't relate to the GBs (except they existed on the same world and ruled over the tribes...?), but I know what you meant, lol.

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The Toas' powers were given to them by the Great Beings, who designed each type of Toa individually and then labelled them with an element.
It's the same reason Ice and Water are not the same. The Toas' powers aren't forces of nature, they're subjectively designed.

So the Great beings must have decided that having control over only Stone and no other earth was equally usefull in their world to having control over all air or all fire or just liquid water.
Relating them to natural elements is Matoran mythology, but in reality, their powers are carefully selected and designed by intelegent beings with subjective opinions, tastes and artistic intent.

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why is it every time i ask a question that relates to the story team i get an answer that relates to the great beings?

 

I seriously, honestly never cared to know why the GBs did things, that is completely unimportant. :t

Idk dude.

But I have the answer you seek! Straight from Alastair Swinnerton himself: http://alastairswinnerton.com/2015/09/07/bionicle-my-actual-part-in-its-origins/

In this blogpost of his, he says:

" And so my four original main heroes became Tahu (fire), Lewa (air), Gali (water) and Onua (earth). The four elements. It wasn’t exactly an original way to create four heroes, but Lego seemed to like it . . . They also wanted two more heroes, largely because they had six different-coloured production lines, and thus Kopacka and Pohatu were born."

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Maybe it should be this way: Onua is Master of Earth, Toa of Earth. He has power over Earth particles, and INTRUSIVE rocks (rocks underground). He has great strength, night vision, and so forth.

 

Pohatu is Master of Stone, Toa of Stone. He has power over sand and EXTRUSIVE rocks (above ground rocks). He is fast, and passes his free time in athletic activities.

 

None of those were canon subscriptions but just an idea ;) Remember a lot of sources show that Earth and Stone need to work together to unlock their FULL power too.

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How redundant are the elements?
Nokama can bend both water and protodermis. Assuming she's not a special amongst Water Toa, that would mean all "water toa" are not restricted to bending just water. Would this include lava? Can Onua and Pohatu bend lava, since its just melted stone?
Can Gali and Lewa both bend steam?
Certainly Kopaka and Tahu both bend temperature.
Do Lewa and Kopaka share control over the weather?
I think we draw too much attention on the stone vs earth debate because those two elements are clearly redundant. 
But when you really think about it, the elemental restrictions were never clear cut. All of the toa's "jurisdictions" over their respective elements overlapped. Earth vs stone is not special, its just the most obvious. 
So really, I don't see a difference in Pohatu's and Onua's powers. 

 

https://youtu.be/sTrcmx8a3EM?t=2m36s
Onua is just green, and Pohatu is just dusty. 

 

https://youtu.be/pyZS3BCnw8w?t=53m32s
That is clearly not a clod of soil.

Idk. Maybe one toa controls sediment and the other controls pure minerals? 

Edit: meh, I don't like the sediment/mineral idea. I honestly would prefer the in story explanation to be that the Element Lords were just fooling around with the elemental categories/tribes. 
 

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Okay I have two points to make, but before I make them, I would like to say that I am on the side of Earth and Stone being fused as one element.

 

1) In both Pokemon and Bionicle, Ice and Water have a distinguishing factor, ice is associated with the cold while water is warmer, making these elements clearly defined. In pokemon, ground and rock types are separated by their non-physical nature and not what their made up of. Ground is based off of the land and stone is the stuff we can pick up and throw. Take how the interact with Flying and electric types. Ground moves cannot hit flying type pokemon, as the targeted flying type could just fly off the ground and avoid damage, however, ground type pokemon can take a hit from electric type movies and receive no damage due to their association with the land allowing them to channel the attack's electricity straight into the ground and thus take no damage. Rock type pokemon can throw stones at flying type pokemon and thus hurt them, but without the association to the land under them, they have to take damage from all electrical attacks, as they cannot mitigate them.

 

In Bionicle, there is no such point of separation, instead it is based on size and 'composition'. In all reality there is no difference between what makes stone and clay (the smallest size class of soil particles) other than how compressed and cemented the substance is. It is all minerals and crystals, sure you have different kinds of rock made of different substances, but given enough time and pressure all sediments (basically everything that the Earth element is made up off) will be turn to stone. If however, Bionicle separated Earth and Stone like how pokemon separated Ground and Rock, it would make more sense and be actually justified. In this system, Onua would be able control sediment and gravel that was on the same surface as he was but wouldn't be able to affected it if it was in the air above him or floating on the water (even if he put it there), yet he could form under-ground tunnels at will and start earthquakes, as his power is tied to the land he is on. Pohatu would be able to freely move his rocks through air or on water, unlike Onua, but couldn't start earthquakes due his powers being restricted to the rock and substance of the earth and not it's manifestation of a land surface.

 

2) In the system where Earth is dirt and Stone is rocks, Onu-koro and Po-koro are the wrong way around. Sediment in all it's forms (Clay, silt, sand and gravel) is usually turned into rock by pressure. This happens when layers of sediment are buried under other sediment layers and are compressed into stone. This means that most rock is underground, and caves and deep mines usually have no sediment that hasn't been crushed into stone. There is no sense form a people associated with dirt and soil to be down there, but Po-matoran would be surrounded by their favourite element. Instead soil is found on the surface, with freshly eroded rock faces and decomposing organic matter to help it grow. So Onu-koro should be on surface with deep soils that are rich in sediment, and Po-Koro should be underground, digging tunnels through the solid bedrock. 

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Nokama can bend both water and protodermis. Assuming she's not a special amongst Water Toa, that would mean all "water toa" are not restricted to bending just water.

Actually you're a bit confused on this, albeit because Bionicle used confusing terminology; Toa of Water control "protowater" or liquid, waterlike protodermis, not all protodermis and probably not even all liquid protodermis. Lava as you mentioned next, is a liquid but Ga-Toa can't control it. And presumably they can't control energized protodermis.

 

Would this include lava? Can Onua and Pohatu bend lava, since its just melted stone?

Assuming by "bend" you mean control as in Avatar, I think there's been some question on that one. I think that properly lava should be controlled as a combo element like Lewa and Gali were established to be able to summon a storm, working together, but the Toa would be Tahu and Pohatu. And maybe Tahu and Onua (they were shown making and apparently controlling lava in MOL, though Greg has said it really should have been Tahu and Pohatu). But not Onua and Pohatu -- neither have control of heat. But offhand I'm unsure if that factor has been confirmed to deny them that ability. Pretty sure I asked Greg about that while I asked about lava being its own element... I'm certain he turned down lava as a distinct element but not sure he did weigh in on who does control it.

 

But create lava? Tahu plus either Pohatu or Onua can definitely do that.

 

Can Gali and Lewa both bend steam?

Again the use of "bend" is confusing here -- if there is steam already in the air, Lewa can obviously blow it around by controlling just the air. I wouldn't think of that as "bending steam" though, in the Avatar sense. In the literal plain-English sense, though, yes, because literally he could warp the shape of a column of steam for example. :P

 

For making new steam, only Gali can do that (although Kopaka might be able to indirectly in some weather conditions, especially melting a lot of ice in lava!).

 

For controlling steam, I believe it was settled eventually that Ga control it. I know Tuyet was depicted as using her power involving steam somehow or another in Many Deaths... I forget if it was clearly control, though. Obviously a Ga-Toa could create a mist and that would probably be all she needs for most uses of steam; concealment.

 

Do Lewa and Kopaka share control over the weather?

Yes in that Lewa can make wind and Kopaka can make snow or hail, but Kopaka's normal use is more like shooting ice out as a beam or manipulating ice on the ground (in G1 anyways).

 

And Gali can make rain... and Kopaka could too if he pulled out the cold energy of snow/hail and the air was above freezing (enough).

 

I think we draw too much attention on the stone vs earth debate because those two elements are clearly redundant.

That's a matter of taste, really. Earth flows like a liquid, forms mud, etc. See Greg's "hit you with both" quote -- that's not quite redundant. ;) But an element controlling both would be valid for fiction, obviously.

 

But when you really think about it, the elemental restrictions were never clear cut. All of the toa's "jurisdictions" over their respective elements overlapped.

Again I must question this wording -- the very nature of elements demands there be some overlap, because that's the nature of materials. :) I wouldn't say that's the same as not being "clear cut" -- it's clear Tahu controls combustible materials and heat, for example, and Kopaka can add cold (sap heat) and make water along with it, or just cold. Those rules are clear, and the fact that both of them control temperature doesn't change that (or that both Kopaka and Gali can make H2O).

 

If that makes any sense. :)

 

I don't see a difference in Pohatu's and Onua's powers. 

 

Onua is just green, and Pohatu is just dusty.

This was from the MNOG final battle, and that was a flash animation -- animating a torrent of loose dirt is not so easy. :P

 

 

That is clearly not a clod of soil.

This is actually the scene Greg was talking about where in his view the moviemakers got it wrong. However, I disagree that that's clear. Tightly packed earth can be hard to distinguish by sight from stone, until you hit it hard enough to shatter. If they did get it wrong, it wouldn't be surprising; the moviemakers weren't Bionicle experts and got many known things wrong (like thinking Mata Nui awoke at the end of their movie!); that would just be non-canon, and "pretend it was Pohatu" is easy to do there. :shrugs:

 

Maybe one toa controls sediment and the other controls pure minerals?

I take it you didn't read earlier posts? Earth is loose particulate of the same basic substance as stone (although soil is closer to dead plant matter etc.) of a smaller particle size than sand, and Stone higher particle size. Small enough dustlike particles of pure minerals would still be Earth.

 

If however, Bionicle separated Earth and Stone like how pokemon separated Ground and Rock, it would make more sense and be actually justified.

That seems very debatable. Your paragraph before this trying to explain the Pokemon system is frankly very confusing. :P Having it be about a simple and clear difference between the materials makes much more sense for a story about elements controlling types of materials. Just like ice versus water is clear because that, too, has a clear and simple difference between the materials, even though it's the same actual molecule.

 

You said Pokemon "stone" is "the stuff you can pick up and throw", but that would rule out Onua throwing a clump of dirt; confusing, since every other Toa can make a projectile of their element. And a massive solid dried lava plain with no loose rocks yet, so nothing you can pick up but throw, would be "earth"??

 

I'm also confused as to how you can say there's no "point of separation" but then go on to mention the point of separation?

 

Also, just before this statement, it looks like you're implying it's a problem that Earth and Stone are made of the same substance, but your definition looks like it would be no different; the same thing not "picked up and thrown" would be Earth, right? So if your way has the same thing, you can't really use it in an argument. Maybe you didn't mean to imply that, though. :shrugs:

 

I'm sure that works for Pokemon, but it's a big mistake IMO to try to force Bionicle into the rules of other stories like that. Makes it copycattish, yanno?

 

Pohatu... couldn't start earthquakes

Well Bionicle didn't usually (ever?) feature Pohatu doing that, but saying he can't would be very confusing since real-world earthquakes are far more likely to be the result of giant stone structures breaking from a pressure build-up, not due to loose soil or the like! If there was such a fault zone, and it was on the verge of going, I think Pohatu would be able to speed it along by using his power to break the parts that were holding back the pressure, though normally ironically Onua can make quakes more easily by simply vibrating the soil with his power.

 

 

In the system where Earth is dirt and Stone is rocks, Onu-koro and Po-koro are the wrong way around.

No, they're just a little indirect about the reasoning; Po-Koro is in a place with tons of easily visible large rock structures. The sand is just a side effect of weathering on those basically (well, it would be on a natural island; maybe the camouflage system made most of the sand from the start). And Onu-Koro is "the place with digging". See earlier comments (I think that was in this topic :P) about that. :)

 

most rock is underground

Yes, but that's why Po-Koro was in a place where a lot of rock wasn't, plus it's normal for people to live on top of soil; having the Earth tribe be just another would be rather lame IMO. Makes more sense for them to be literally in the earth. :)

 

caves and deep mines usually have no sediment

There certainly does seem to be a lot of rock there (see previous discussion about this), but I doubt it was pure rock. I don't think it was like here's a layer of soil, and here's a solid dividing line with bedrock below; it seems more like a mixture at that level, with enough rock to make the roof more or less stable, but enough soil that digging is more practical. At the very least, the tunnels to the surface presumably go through earthen layers, and I think the idea was just "a village befitting Onua, who digs a lot."

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Greg said the reason sand can't be controlled is its particles are too big to count as Earth. They're in between the maximum particle size for Earth and minimum (AKA pebbles) for Stone. :) So, clay for example is within Earth's power, even though it doesn't contain humus (dead plant matter).

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The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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:shrugs: 
 
This is my "I don't know but I'll find out," face. 


2. Can a toa of stone summon a sand storm?
 
2) No. Although sand is disintegrated rock, I feel it would be too much of a stretch to have him commanding sand as well. Too many readers would not get it.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
 
1. Do Toa of earth have power over sand?

A. No

1. T.o. stone?
 
A. No. We have too many fans who wouldn't realize sand is just ground down stone, and would get confused if the Toa of Stone was controlling sand. So we just don't do that. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Apr 28 2007, 09:56 AM: 
 
I think you once said the difference between Stone and Earth was that Earth was little pieces and Stone was large chunks

So does that mean sand would come under the control of an Earth Toa, a Stone Toa, neither or both?

No, I never said anything of the kind. What I said was, here's the difference -- go out and get hit with a clump of mud. Now go out and get hit with a rock. See the difference? Stone is rock. Earth is dirt. That's the difference.


Technically, sand would be under stone, because sand is fine rock particles. But because I don't want to take the time from the story to have to explain that, and/or risk confusing fans who DON'T know sand's connection to stone, we keep the Toa of Stone dealing with rock only and not sand.

 

That's what I find. The words "particle size" still famously return nothing related to this. :P

Edited by fishers64
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Greg said the reason sand can't be controlled is its particles are too big to count as Earth. They're in between the maximum particle size for Earth and minimum (AKA pebbles) for Stone. :) So, clay for example is within Earth's power, even though it doesn't contain humus (dead plant matter).

 

wow, the grat beings (and/or greg) confirmed for neing really really REALLY uselessly specific.

 

 

A. No. We have too many fans who wouldn't realize sand is just ground down stone, and would get confused if the Toa of Stone was controlling sand. So we just don't do that.

 

This part gets me everytime, i still cannot believe that he A: thought not enough people would realize sand is stones. and B: decided rather than send it into Earth's territory, he'd just flat-out ommit the whole concept of sand. which is, imo pretty ridiculous because sand is like, 75% of Stone's Mata-Nui region.

bnnrimg1.pngbnnrimg2.pngbnnrimg3.pngbnnrimg4.pngbnnrimg5.pngbnnrimg8.png

 

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Oh, okay. Was that in the Greg Compendium? I must've missed it when I went over it last month.

No, this was the answer he gave as a post in the old forums in the Official Elements Topic, which was lost when the archives were lost. It was in answer to a discussion I was participating in at the time, so I always remembered it. Unfortunately, nobody recorded it that I've been able to dig up so far.

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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