Toa of Earth and earthquakes?

[bonesiii]

That doesn't sound like a phrase about particle size to me. that sounds like "pohau chucks rocks, onua slings earth" which is honestly what the very element names are telling us so

I agree, but how does that work if Earth actually isn't a material, but is "ground", and that would justify rock underground becoming Earth?

 

You see the problem? If that was so, then all Onua has to do is pick up one of the rocks underground that you still seem to be saying is in his power, and throw just that. Then he and Pohatu are throwing something identical.

 

Plus, if he picks it up (directly and with his power), then it is not "ground" anymore. So then, it is about the type of material.

 

And you feel two different materials. You don't feel ground versus in the air.

 

It couldn't really be much clearer!

 

And add to this all of what I said about how this was common knowledge often repeated while Greg was active, and fits with this description -- and that it being something about the material fits with every other element, including Ice/Water and Fire/Plasma. The ground idea would make Earth a total exception to how it works for every other element -- and without confirmation; it comes from fans. All of that is why it's an assumption.

 

Not that it matters what you think about a toy's story. But that's why I'm not going to take your idea, 15 years later, as on the same level as that. Make sense?

 

(my side being i've seen onua manipulate rocks, i've seen whenua manipulate rocks. and i'm pretty sure nuparu manipulated rock once too.)

As said before, are there any clear cases where a proven rock is directly being controlled, versus just moved because some "earth" as in dirt is pushing it? And are any of these from canon sources -- since, again, LEGO does put out contradictory sources sometimes. They didn't always communicate well, remember.

 

All specific examples that have been brought up so far have looked easy to explain, and now according to what we were just discussing, apparently it's being conceded that only earthquakes are remaining debatable, though that admittedly wasn't your wording. But as we can see, earthquakes in the literal sense are possible with control over dirt, and possibly more reliably effective. Since both can make them under the longstanding interpretation, they really don't get us anywhere against it, unless Onua were to be shown causing it specifically due to control over Stone.

 

Which would only confuse fans because Pohatu is the Toa of Stone... again...

 

as i've said before, stone toa basically only ever seem to control rocks that are apart from the ground

But you can't use this and be consistent with "pick it up", as soil and rocks being part of Onua's control in the ground would make them part of his control while "apart from the ground" there too.

 

Haven't they made rock come up from underground and the like? Of course, what they're doing will end up in the air (or water), because that's where the enemy being attacked is. But then again, all Toa control their material, wherever it is, so far as we've been told, as long as it's in the right state for it. Other than bringing rock up from underground into the air, what else could he do that would test your hypothesis? Seems like that comes around to earthquakes mainly...

 

Although there would be controlling rock in caves, which we have seen him do, and that's technically underground.

 

That example shows another problem. Just what is it that makes rock okay for Onua based on where it is? Contact with air? Elevation? What they feel like thinking of as ground? If Pohatu can control rock while underground, it makes the definition at best very confusing.

 

I still see no evidence to decide this topic. The problem is, bones, we don't have your original source for the particle size quote. I'm sorry man, but I'm still rightly skeptical - experience tells me trusting bonesiii's memory is...

 

Not a good idea.

 

However, I am inclined to follow your logic. Particle size and possibly arrangement makes sense. I mean, a rock has more densely packed atoms/particles than a bunch of earth.

The problem is, the evidence is there in that often-quoted Greg quote; see the start of this post, and I've been pointing that out all along. That Greg didn't recall saying the quote we lost doesn't change that. He hasn't retconned it by saying "it's actually ground" -- that's coming in 15 years later as speculation.

 

I've already been over why my memory isn't going to matter on this one, but to review. It was a discussion about which one sand falls into, which mattered for a factlist, so I was focused on it. Many other people were following it (in the Official Elements Topic). Greg weighed in about particle size and put it in between. Since it fit with his other quotes like his "hit you with it" thing, there was no reason to doubt it, etc. Everybody active in there at the time then began talking about it as fact from then on. And as the topic kept coming up through all those years, I was being constantly reminded of it over all that time. Evidently almost everybody else has forgotten now, but that's to be expected. But for me, it's just not plausible that somehow suddenly I could be flipping it all backwards in my memory.

 

But it's easy to settle. If somebody really thinks "Stone is in Onua's control", just go ask Greg right now. I think we can all guess the lines his answer will take.

 

Zox, that all looks right on, with one exception -- to be fair, we do think of stones within the earth as sometimes counting as "earth". An "earthmover" for example will be expected to move loose stones inside the soil too. And "earth" in the sense of land could include bedrock. It's really more than two definitions. Earth the planet is definitely not the one, but any of the other three could be valid. (But only type of material fits with how Toa elements work, so still being Earth regardless of where it is, so far as we know.)

Edited October 12, 2015 by bonesiii

[The Editor]

 

Heh, Bones, I did get that point - I have been reading this thread, after all.

 

Okay? Then out of curiosity, what did you mean by the last bit in the previous post about "has to be rock"?

Oops. I forgot to add, "looks like it has to involve the manipulation of stone". The point is, I don't think Toa of Earth have been shown to do anything that looks as though it requires the manipulation of stone other than earthquake-causing (the method of which they use we have already determined as soil manipulation). I don't recall seeing any media where the Toa of Earth in any team controls stone.

 

OK, let's come back at the earthquake thing from a different angle; in Avatar:TLA or TLK, we see earthbenders (in no particular order) move people aside by moving the earth under them, knock people over by rippling the earth, spin people by turning the ground under them, and shake the ground as a side effect of using a lot of power. Taking those as a baseline for what 'earth control' can do, is it really hard to believe that Onua could shake the terrain to cause a localized tremor?

Also, minor detail - Earthbenders in Avatar control both what bionicle considers rock and earth. But the gist of what you mean does make sense, in that Toa of Earth basically move soil to generate tremors and the like. Edited October 12, 2015 by The Editor

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

That doesn't sound like a phrase about particle size to me. that sounds like "pohau chucks rocks, onua slings earth" which is honestly what the very element names are telling us so

I agree, but how does that work if Earth actually isn't a material, but is "ground", and that would justify rock underground becoming Earth?

 

You see the problem? If that was so, then all Onua has to do is pick up one of the rocks underground that you still seem to be saying is in his power, and throw just that. Then he and Pohatu are throwing something identical.

 

Plus, if he picks it up (directly and with his power), then it is not "ground" anymore. So then, it is about the type of material.

 

And you feel two different materials. You don't feel ground versus in the air.

 

It couldn't really be much clearer!

 

And add to this all of what I said about how this was common knowledge often repeated while Greg was active, and fits with this description -- and that it being something about the material fits with every other element, including Ice/Water and Fire/Plasma. The ground idea would make Earth a total exception to how it works for every other element -- and without confirmation; it comes from fans. All of that is why it's an assumption.

 

Not that it matters what you think about a toy's story. But that's why I'm not going to take your idea, 15 years later, as on the same level as that. Make sense?

 

No there is still nothing here about particle size, what you just spent three paragraphs on doesn't confirm it's particle size. i really don't see your angle here and am, wuite frankly, more confused than ever.

 

@Onua's use of stone:

 

Example one: Onua says "welcome to Onu-Koro" in mask-of-light, plunges his fists into the ground, and causes the rocky ceiling to fall on the rahkshi, veins of elemental light show he is clearly passing his powers through the stone itself.

 

Example two: MNOG final battle, Onua plunges his fists into the ground and causes a an elemental fissure in the rock, a spray of earthen debris (dirt and gravels and dust) gushes out at Makuta.

 

i'd grab an example from the books but, i honestly don't have any of them on me and my memory of them is kinda shakey. sorry. s:

[fishers64]

 

 

I still see no evidence to decide this topic. The problem is, bones, we don't have your original source for the particle size quote. I'm sorry man, but I'm still rightly skeptical - experience tells me trusting bonesiii's memory is...

 

Not a good idea.

 

However, I am inclined to follow your logic. Particle size and possibly arrangement makes sense. I mean, a rock has more densely packed atoms/particles than a bunch of earth.

The problem is, the evidence is there in that often-quoted Greg quote; see the start of this post, and I've been pointing that out all along. That Greg didn't recall saying the quote we lost doesn't change that. He hasn't retconned it by saying "it's actually ground" -- that's coming in 15 years later as speculation.

 

I've already been over why my memory isn't going to matter on this one, but to review. It was a discussion about which one sand falls into, which mattered for a factlist, so I was focused on it. Many other people were following it (in the Official Elements Topic). Greg weighed in about particle size and put it in between. Since it fit with his other quotes like his "hit you with it" thing, there was no reason to doubt it, etc. Everybody active in there at the time then began talking about it as fact from then on. And as the topic kept coming up through all those years, I was being constantly reminded of it over all that time. Evidently almost everybody else has forgotten now, but that's to be expected. But for me, it's just not plausible that somehow suddenly I could be flipping it all backwards in my memory.

 

But it's easy to settle. If somebody really thinks "Stone is in Onua's control", just go ask Greg right now. I think we can all guess the lines his answer will take.

bones, I just quoted a whole bunch of Greg that said that sand was in Pohatu's domain, yet they didn't have time for a science lesson so they didn't do it. (They obviously canned that for G2, but that's tangential.)

 

The issue is "are earth and stone different due to particle size", not anything else. bones says yes, everyone else says maybe, RL says no.

 

Now RL has been saying this stuff about Onua controlling rock, but that doesn't strike me as relevant to the particle size distinction. Sorry if there is some hidden relevancy that slipped on by me, but if there was, I wasn't referencing it there.  

[bonesiii]

RL, I haven't read your latest post yet as I type, but since you keep going back to the "Earth = ground" thing, and I already dealt with it in Greg quotes before, I

decided to dig up that post again. Here's the ones that address some of the specific points you've made trying to defend the ground idea:

 

    How come Hewikii can make hands come out of the ground isint that a toa of earths area?

    Not if there is stone under the ground, no. The hands Hewkii makes are made of stone, not earth.

This one disproves this: "stone toa basically only ever seem to control rocks that are apart from the ground"

 

Here's Greg's summary of the element:
 

Earth, for the purposes of BIONICLE, is soil

 

Here's another about Stone Toa controlling stone that is underground (when they start the action ):

 

Onewa can make stone spikes appear from the ground

 

And this one directly addresses the "stones are found in earth" argument, and once again associates Stone with ground (shouldn't be surprising; both are!):

1) I'm having trouble with the differences between the Toa of stone and the Toa of Earth because isn't there stone in earth? What can stone do that Earth can't? Do you think you could give me a short list and desciption of their differences?      
 Onewa deals with rock; Whenua deals with soil. Onewa can make big rock pillars rise up out of the ground, Whenua can't. Whenua can send a tidal wave of dirt at an enemy, Onewa can't. Onewa can look at a big slab of rock and figure out just where to hit it to shatter it -- Whenua can't. Whenua can sense vibrations in the earth and know when something is coming -- Onewa can't.

So Onewa controls stone both underground and above ground. And this can be fairly summarized as "Onewa deals with rock; Whenua deals with soil." There's really no room here for the conventional understanding to be wrong or the Earth=ground myth to have been intended all along, man.

 

Notice the part in bold. If "Whenua can control the stone you mentioned" was intended, then we wouldn't expect the answer to include: "Onewa can make big rock pillars rise up out of the ground, Whenua can't." This part isn't conclusive because of "rise up", but it's another strange missed opportunity if the stone being in earth was meant to be within Whenua's control.

This one also shows a problem with arguing it based on rocks being underground:
 

5. Why aare stone and earth separate elements?
5) I used to get this question a lot. My answer was usually that if you have been hit in the head by a ball of mud -- and then hit in the head by a rock -- it's pretty obvious they are two very different things. Now, you can say we find rocks in the soil, but we also find lots of minerals underground too ... but if I did a Toa of Silver, no one would say he should be a Toa of Earth instead.

And as I pointed out before with this quote, if there are roots underground, are they under Earth too?

 

 

Also, to add to the point about this being such common knowledge when Greg was active -- it isn't just, as maybe you're imagining, that he answered a lot of questions by PM. He was also very active, almost as much as the typical active fan, in posting in topics, and people were saying this all the time in those topics, which seemed to come up at least every few months. He was posting in them; if it was incorrect, he had ample opportunity to say so. And they were also fairly often mentioning that the "earth = ground including underground stone" idea was incorrect. Same thing here.

 

Now this wouldn't matter much if it was a rare subject, but again, it was one of the most common topics.

 

You would have me believe that he just happened not to read all of those posts, and only the ones that didn't comment on the issue?

 

It's just not believable, RL.

 

 

 

And another point. If stone underground is able to be controlled because it's "ground", what about sand? Sand is normally "ground." Yet Greg clearly said (and we do have quotes for this much, if not the specific one that settled that discussion in the Official Elements Topic) that sand is controlled by neither. Here, again, is one of them:

 

  1. Do Toa of earth have power over sand?
 A. No
 1. T.o. stone?
 A. No. We have too many fans who wouldn't realize sand is just ground down stone, and would get confused if the Toa of Stone was controlling sand. So we just don't do that. 

This also implies another big reason they wouldn't have wanted to include Stone in Earth while having Stone also separate -- if you want something to confuse the fans even more than they already are, that's probably one of the top picks.

 

 

Oops. I forgot to add, "looks like it has to involve the manipulation of stone".

Thanks for clarifying.

 

 

No there is still nothing here about particle size, what you just spent three paragraphs on doesn't confirm it's particle size

How does it not? One large stone hits your head. One big piece. One clump of earth the exact same size hits your head. Breaks apart naturally, because it was lots of little pieces. One's rock, one's soil.

 

If the difference was really ground, we would expect a whole different type of answer. He would be saying things more like what you tend to say in describing this idea, being careful to include mentions of Onua/etc. controlling stone if it's underground. The subject has come up as the above quotes show, and the answer always talks about the type of material, and "misses the opportunity" (if it is what was intended) to say "by the way, those stones underground are in Whenua's control, not Onewa" etc.

 

Although it does seem you're inventing a more careful system than the typical Earth = ground myth, which was as far as I recall just a vague notion. To be crystal clear -- you DO have some ground to stand on here because of that. I think it's disproven, and clearly so, but as a matter of principle your having evidently tried to think it through a lot makes it worthy of looking at more closely IMO. (And besides, it's good mental practice and at least we can learn more about how an alternate Bionicle could go... especially great since we actually have one now!)

 

I'm not asking you to answer these challenges in the sense that it's guaranteed there is no answer. You say you've thought this through, so I'm genuinely curious how you would answer these things.

 

And keep in mind that if it were to be canon, and were promoted widely, fans would be asking these things. So answers would need to be possible; the questions shouldn't be just brushed aside. Time allowing, of course.

 

i really don't see your angle here and am, wuite frankly, more confused than ever.

Well, that's okay. I'm confused about your confusion... and generally confused in general. Generally.

 

Onua says "welcome to Onu-Koro" in mask-of-light, plunges his fists into the ground, and causes the rocky ceiling to fall

We've been over this already in past topics recently. But let's go over it again, as it was a bit spread out. Assume for a moment that's really stone (I'm taking it that way for now, but read on). If so, we have two simple explanations:

 

1) Moviemakers got it wrong. You can't really use "it was in MOL so it must be true" ( ) because in their commentary, they actually thought Mata Nui awoke in their movie. And Greg has pointed out another scene that in his view they DID get wrong in having Onua do something (the lava thing... also discussed previously... I think he's overzealous on that as earth could melt, but maybe he meant that ground was intended to be stone there).

 

Let's pause there.

 

Say they got it wrong? How could that happen?

 

Miscommunication... and here's another thing you don't seem to be considering -- they might fall for the Earth = ground myth too. It kept coming up among fans -- so not that hard to imagine it might come up among the many people who worked on Bionicle too!

 

We've seen that often in G1, different media basically made up their own version of things, without checking what was intended originally or checking with the story team at the time, and put out contradictory things. And often they are simply not story experts, and aren't worried about trying to be. (I should know... I helped consult for the Bionicle Heroes guys for those mask special features... but they never asked for advice in making a canonically plausible story. Of course, they weren't trying to make something to be called canon, and MOL was. But so was MNOG, and Hapka, and various other sources, including MOL when they got other known things wrong.)

 

Point is, whether intending to make canon or not, they were usually more focused on making something entertaining within time and budget constraints that didn't completely frustrate the average fan, not on making everything they did a clue for the hardcore story fans who want everything to fit just right.

 

2) As discussed before, how do we know pressure from earth above didn't make that rock collapse? That happens all the ground both in real cave-ins and in stories, though in this case Onua would be pushing down on it. (And both of these explanations work; if MOL got it wrong, the scene can still be "salvaged" by this explanation. Nothing in the scene prevents this, which is what we'd need for this to prove your idea.

 

And this assumes that was all actually intended to be rock. Again, it's difficult to animate loose dirt when you can just make a bunch of large pieces (which could be interpreted as tightly packed earth, which if you've ever dug around in gardens with old enough ground or the like you know is pretty common).

 

So relying on an animation for this is very questionable, at best. Much better would be something in a book which is free to describe whatever happened, with the only limits being the word count and suchnot.

 

 

There's another huge problem with taking an "if it looks that way in media" approach, for this specific example -- you're presumably relying on the argument (at least this is what was argued 'back in the day') that Pohatu says something like shouting Onua's name and then Onua does it instead of Pohatu, which would mean Pohatu couldn't control it, because it was underground. I'm not sure you mean it that way, clarify if not but it sounds that way from some of your word choice, but, the problem is we have that famous scene in MNOG's final battle where, while underground, Pohatu does control stone. And not just making new stone, but moving stone that's part of the cavern.

 

Example two: MNOG final battle, Onua plunges his fists into the ground and causes a an elemental fissure in the rock, a spray of earthen debris (dirt and gravels and dust) gushes out at Makuta.

And this was also discussed already -- and as much as people have kept trying to use this one as evidence, I just never got that from it the first time, and plenty of other people didn't either. While I can see how you might think this from the MOL example, knowing this is a "Toa of Earth", and the extreme constraints of a flash animation, I think most people have no problem seeing that as earth.

 

At the very least, "gravels" is speculation. Nobody told us that's what it meant to portray; we just see larger pieces, and whether it's tightly packed clumps or stone, we aren't told.

 

But personally, I think most of the debate on that one has ignored another very possible explanation -- that the floor was stone, and in order to send earth flying up at the Makuta, Onua had to reach lower down past the stone, and force that floor up indirectly, breaking through it. Pohatu finds stone to control (and has no trouble doing so while underground mind you... but hopefully that horse can stop being beat now lol), so we know there's some stone already there. If it's a stone layer, we would expect exactly what we see there, with Onua controlling only dirt directly.

 

And since animations don't worry about flying things moving completely realistically, and could slow down for drama's sake, we wouldn't necessarily wait to see those fall down to be completely realistic, especially not for a flash anim.

 

(Plus, MNOG's makers didn't consult the story team on many other things... while this battle is confirmed canon, that doesn't mean every little detail down to the exact animation choices was meant to be nitpicked. It's possible they, too, fell for the ground myth, but I doubt it.)

 

And there's even the fact that Pohatu is present and is clearly using his power -- how do we know he wasn't working with Onua to control any bits of stone that came out that side too?

 

 

Don't worry about book examples -- I have most of them and probably should do another review anyways whenever I finish my retelling (which I'm trying to get back to focusing on soon... anywho), and I can keep an eye out for examples. That might be dissappointingly late, but since this does come up so often, I've been thinking this might be one where putting anything relevant in one list could be helpful in the future.

 

Besides. Poor Pohatu and Onua have suffered from this confusion long enough, man. (Of course, a full list of example uses probably still won't entirely settle every related question. Anywho, later.)

 

bones, I just quoted a whole bunch of Greg that said that sand was in Pohatu's domain, yet they didn't have time for a science lesson so they didn't do it.

That's old news -- it was the main focus of the discussion in the Official Elements Topic that I was talking about. I have mentioned this several times; Greg originally went with Stone controlling sand, but changed his mind and made it between the two. I guess you missed this?

 

The issue is "are earth and stone different due to particle size", not anything else. bones says yes, everyone else says maybe

More accurately, bones says yes, Greg said yes, most people active when Greg was active said yes because he said yes, Greg constantly repeats the hitwith quote that clearly portrays it... and five years after it ended and most people who were active and participating in that subject at the time aren't here anymore, those who are active apparently now mostly say maybe. Why is this so difficult to accept?

 

Even so, it doesn't mean we can't discuss alternate systems, or even try to see how it could be made to fit anyways. That may honestly be the more fun thing to do... Just keep it all in perspective. Yeah?

Edited October 13, 2015 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

so wait, back up back up,

 

what i get from this is:

 

MoL is wrong,

 

MNOG is wrong,

 

but if it's greg it's automatically right?

 

that doesn't click tbh. :t

[bonesiii]

what i get from this is:

 

MoL is wrong,

 

MNOG is wrong,

 

but if it's greg it's automatically right?

I had a feeling you'd say that, heh. No -- but if you use something from one source as if that proves anything, and base your argument earlier on doubting that Greg did support it, then showing Greg does support it is relevant, and showing that all the sources can mess up is also relevant. I was hoping this was too obvious to need added to an already huge post... but that's okay.

 

(And apparently you don't follow the Official Greg topic, as I've argued that Greg is wrong often. Heck, I did that in the previous post too!)

 

Also, what's "wrong"? No interpretation of Bionicle is "wrong". But a claim that one interpretation is the canon one can be incorrect, or one interpretation can be non-canon. Pretty basic, yanno.

Edited October 13, 2015 by bonesiii

[Zox Tomana]

so wait, back up back up,

 

what i get from this is:

 

MoL is wrong,

 

MNOG is wrong,

 

but if it's greg it's automatically right?

 

that doesn't click tbh. :t

Well, Greg had nothing to do with either MNOG or MNOGII, so there's that... They are canon at large, but can be non-canon in some details (like if Onua was unambigously shown to be controllign pure rock on it's own with no earth interaction, that wouldn't be correct because that's Pohatu's domain). I don't recall how involved Greg was with MoL. The scene presented in the movie is compelling: Onua does indeed seem to be bringing down a purely stone cavern ceiling. I think Bone's was more trying to say that there may have been a layer or layers of soil above it which Onua could have maniupulated to cause the required shaking to bring down the cave.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Okay, hold on, i need to... un-knot my mind a bit.

 

some of the stuff i said may have been a bit confused, tbh i made half those posts at 1:00 in the morning. bluh.

 

 

You know what? honestly, Onua makes earhtquakes by just shifting the upper crust? enough people have presented that that tbh, i am probably fine agreeing with that but,

 

giving old "particle size" one last go, for all the money. because i am not willing to accept that what bones is saying was ever said in full by greg at any time,

 

and i'm probably never going to allow Greg to get away with saying sand/silt/microscopic rocks are outside pohatu's stone abilities.

 

becaus honestly: A. Greg is so wrong there, what the heck.

 

and B. "clay vs rock" and "size of object's particle" are two different things. :t

[fishers64]

and i'm probably never going to allow Greg to get away with saying sand/silt/microscopic rocks are outside pohatu's stone abilities.

 

becaus honestly: A. Greg is so wrong there, what the heck.

But Greg said that Pohatu could control sand. It was in Pohatu's domain. I quoted that, and then bones quoted that. 

 

 

 

This is my "I don't know but I'll find out," face. 

 

2. Can a toa of stone summon a sand storm?

 

2) No. Although sand is disintegrated rock, I feel it would be too much of a stretch to have him commanding sand as well. Too many readers would not get it.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

1. Do Toa of earth have power over sand?

 

A. No

 

1. T.o. stone?

 

A. No. We have too many fans who wouldn't realize sand is just ground down stone, and would get confused if the Toa of Stone was controlling sand. So we just don't do that. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Apr 28 2007, 09:56 AM: 

 

I think you once said the difference between Stone and Earth was that Earth was little pieces and Stone was large chunks

 

So does that mean sand would come under the control of an Earth Toa, a Stone Toa, neither or both?

 

No, I never said anything of the kind. What I said was, here's the difference -- go out and get hit with a clump of mud. Now go out and get hit with a rock. See the difference? Stone is rock. Earth is dirt. That's the difference.

 

 

Technically, sand would be under stone, because sand is fine rock particles. But because I don't want to take the time from the story to have to explain that, and/or risk confusing fans who DON'T know sand's connection to stone, we keep the Toa of Stone dealing with rock only and not sand.

 

That's what I find. The words "particle size" still famously return nothing related to this.

 

[Zox Tomana]

Fishers, while Greg is saying Sand would technically be in Pohatu's domain, due what he perceives as the demands of the story it is not and falls into it's own Category... so it isn't under Pohatu's domain. I'm really regretting the loss of the old topics... would let us actually find the Greg quote Bones keeps appealing to. I mean, in a way, it makes sorta sense: but Greg's qualitative vs. quantitative difference statement is a lot easier to swallow. Yes, sand is ground up rocks, we know that, but you don't mistake the two. Dirt contains rocks, but you wouldn't mistake dirt and rocks.

 

What people have been saying about gravel, though... I think that'd be under stones as "very small rocks." And before anyone says "so where do you get the divide between rock and sand?" I say... pick up a handful of sand, and a handful of gravel.... which of these looks like really small rocks and which looks like sand? Sorry, Greg's "dirt is dirt" argument extends to sand for me. Sand is sand. Soil is soil. Rocks are rocks. Note, too, that most soils aren't just ground stone, but also decomposed organic matter.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Sand is rock, except for when it's coral, then it's calcium, which is actually still a rock.

 

sand is just small rock, silt is just small sand. if Onua controls specifically any and all soils, clays, muds and mulches, then pohatu controls any and all rock. it's that simple. (really, Greg can and will be bad or wrong at his job, listening to him 100% is kinda limiting.)

Edited October 13, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[fishers64]

Fishers, while Greg is saying Sand would technically be in Pohatu's domain, due what he perceives as the demands of the story it is not and falls into it's own Category... so it isn't under Pohatu's domain.

No, he's saying that it falls under Pohatu's domain, but they don't let him use it in the story to avoid confusing people.

 

It's like saying "this is the truth (that Pohatu can control sand), but I'm not going to use it to avoid confusing people." Which on the surface, sounds really bad, but you got to keep in mind your audience - you can talk to a 5-year-old about thermonuclear astrophysics and have every word come out of your mouth be absolutely true, but it will likely confuse the kid and not be very useful in communicating to him or her.

 

I say... pick up a handful of sand, and a handful of gravel.... which of these looks like really small rocks and which looks like sand? Sorry, Greg's "dirt is dirt" argument extends to sand for me. Sand is sand. Soil is soil. Rocks are rocks. Note, too, that most soils aren't just ground stone, but also decomposed organic matter.

This seems to imply that "sand is soil and thus controlled by Earth". Am I reading this right? Otherwise, not sure what you mean. 

 

 

(really, Greg can and will be bad or wrong at his job, listening to him 100% is kinda limiting.)

I predict that bones will say this in 5...4...3...2...1: 

 

Beware the universal negative.

 

Of course the universal positive is bad too, and the idolization of Greg by some awestruck children in the past likely did happen. Somehow I just don't fit bones into that characterization that well, though, and it lives on another planet from me.

 

Greg is a flawed human being like all the rest of us. But despite the fact that he doesn't do physics worth a darn and can't visualize stuff and sometimes forgot a few things, he was competent enough a writer to work for Lego for over ten years. If he was always bad or wrong at his job, he would have been fired. 

 

Secondly, answering questions from fans was NOT his job. Greg never got paid one red dime for all of the hours he spent talking with us. Now if his answers generally were ALL bad and didn't make sense, the fans would have totally ignored him after awhile. S&T used to be filled with people who filled the Official Elements Topic with long and intricate debates that went way over my head (ironically, I'm kinda in one now, huh). They were freakishly smart and over analyzed everything, and if something didn't add up, they would have gone back to Greg and fixed it. If he was always bad, no one would have listened to him, and he would be discredited. This didn't happen, therefore he might have been good at his "job" of answering questions at least once. 

 

S&T is still filled with freakishly smart people who still over analyze everything. Nothing ever changes. 

 

Including criticism from every side at unreasonable hours of the night.

Edited October 13, 2015 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

Fishers, he clearly stated that it is not in Pohatu's power. Read the quote more carefully. No time for anything else at moment...

[The Editor]

i'm probably never going to allow Greg to get away with saying sand/silt/microscopic rocks are outside pohatu's stone abilities.

 

becaus honestly: A. Greg is so wrong there, what the heck.

 

It's your personal opinion he's wrong, but he was the primary source of canon for G1 Bionicle. I think you're making too big a deal out of this, because so far what Bones and the rest have been saying do make sense. If it doesn't to you, it doesn't matter, because it's canon. For instance, Nuparu conducting electricity through one of Thok's ice (not a conductor of electricity) blasts to electrocute him in Power Play makes no sense at all. Does it bother me? Yes. Do I need to accept it? Yeah, it's canon. No amount of arguing about how wrong Greg may be on something doesn't change how canonical it is, and that's a fact you need to accept.

 

 

 

Fishers, while Greg is saying Sand would technically be in Pohatu's domain, due what he perceives as the demands of the story it is not and falls into it's own Category... so it isn't under Pohatu's domain.

 

Fisher, I think Bones made a little linguistic fumble here (not to insult bones), and I think I have a correction that might clear it up for you. I'd say he meant: "while Greg is saying that Pohatu should logically control Sand, he was forced by the demands of the story and target audience to make Pohatu only control rock and stone that is not granular or in any way considered sand." It isn't that Pohatu can control sand but was never shown to due to it being possibly confusing to the target demographic.

 

 

Sorry, Greg's "dirt is dirt" argument extends to sand for me. Sand is sand. Soil is soil. Rocks are rocks. Note, too, that most soils aren't just ground stone, but also decomposed organic matter.

This seems to imply that "sand is soil and thus controlled by Earth". Am I reading this right? Otherwise, not sure what you mean.

 

Note that he mentions humus (decomposed organic matter) as a defining component of soil. Sand lacks humus, and is in no way considered soil.

 

Edit: I'm working on mobile, so excuse the response that's accidentally placed under a quote. I can't seem to edit it out.

Edited October 13, 2015 by The Editor

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

For instance, Nuparu conducting electricity through one of Thok's ice (not a conductor of electricity) blasts to electrocute him in Power Play

 

...

 

I've officially decided trusting Greg for canon is bad for my health.

[abstractAgamid]

The earthquake thing could possibly be explained for the Matoran Universe, since a giant robot probably has a different structure than a planet.

[fishers64]

Fishers, he clearly stated that it is not in Pohatu's power. Read the quote more carefully. No time for anything else at moment...

Yarr, he did say it as a flat "No." *facepalm* I brain-jumped over the first two quotes down to this: 

 

Apr 28 2007, 09:56 AM: 

 

So does that mean sand would come under the control of an Earth Toa, a Stone Toa, neither or both?

 

Technically, sand would be under stone, because sand is fine rock particles. But because I don't want to take the time from the story to have to explain that, and/or risk confusing fans who DON'T know sand's connection to stone, we keep the Toa of Stone dealing with rock only and not sand.

My brain emphasized the "technically, sand would be under stone" and then used the 2007 is more reliable than 2004 rule.

[Zox Tomana]

 

For instance, Nuparu conducting electricity through one of Thok's ice (not a conductor of electricity) blasts to electrocute him in Power Play

 

...

 

I've officially decided trusting Greg for canon is bad for my health.

 

I think The Editor should have stated "not a good conductor." Both pure water and ice are very poor conductors of electricity, but that doesn't mean you can't force something through. Also, the common perception is that water is actually a good conductor, so from a story standpoint Greg can be forgiven for sending Lightning through Ice. The science of the ostensibly science-fiction/fantasy of BIONICLE has always required a large dose of salt for those who know science.

[bonesiii]

One clarification to your reply about MNOG & MOL being wrong -- I don't know if you noticed but, at least with MOL, I don't think we're even that far -- how do we know MNOG was even "wrong" versus simply being misinterpreted? How do we know they intended that to be stone?

And the same does apply to MOL, though again that one does look like stone and at least it isn't just flecks on a flash animation.

 

Okay, hold on, i need to... un-knot my mind a bit.

some of the stuff i said may have been a bit confused, tbh i made half those posts at 1:00 in the morning. bluh.

Alright, understandable.

 

You know what? honestly, Onua makes earhtquakes by just shifting the upper crust? enough people have presented that that tbh, i am probably fine agreeing with that

Cool.

 

giving old "particle size" one last go, for all the money. because i am not willing to accept that what bones is saying was ever said in full by greg at any time,

My apologies if you got that impression -- I never said that, though. Of course he didn't -- and I've said he didn't. I said he weighed in on a debate, originally saying sand was in Stone, then saying neither. And it's essentially the same as the quotes we do have (though the wording was evidently clearer which is why I wish we could get it back somehow, as it settled the matter for everybody active at the time ever since, until 2015 ), if you think it over carefully.

 

and i'm probably never going to allow Greg to get away with saying sand/silt/microscopic rocks are outside pohatu's stone abilities.

becaus honestly: A. Greg is so wrong there, what the heck.

The problem with that is, soil can be turned into rock too, given the right processes, so by that reasoning, why should anything under Earth also be in Pohatu's control?

This is where the conventional explanation shines, because it doesn't break down like the other explanations did when you consider that things you dig through and things that make up boulders can and often are the exact same substance.

And since Ice and Water are too, it's consistent.

 

It's your personal opinion he's wrong, but he was the primary source of canon for G1 Bionicle. I think you're making too big a deal out of this, because so far what Bones and the rest have been saying do make sense. If it doesn't to you, it doesn't matter, because it's canon. For instance, Nuparu conducting electricity through one of Thok's ice (not a conductor of electricity) blasts to electrocute him in Power Play makes no sense at all. Does it bother me? Yes. Do I need to accept it? Yeah, it's canon. No amount of arguing about how wrong Greg may be on something doesn't change how canonical it is, and that's a fact you need to accept.

I appreciate the recognition, but you might be surprised to hear I actually disagree with this. At least, "a fact you need to accept" is... how to put it? It can come across the wrong way, you know?

I believe you simply mean recognize that it is canon, but I don't think the critics of perceived mistakes are usually focusing on that. I think they would think of "accepting" it as agreeing it made sense. And since constructive criticism, especially if it is (as all should be) logical, can change Greg's mind on some things. (Especially if it's a science subject, obviously not his best area. And I've been a part of correcting him on one, so I know he can change his mind from criticism on it if worded very carefully so you make it clear it's something that would apply logically in Bionicle and don't trigger his "Earth science need not apply" fallback.)

Okay, if an event happened in published story, we can't take that back, but yeah. Anyways, chalk it up to a word choice disagreement if you like. But glad I'm making sense to you.



fishers -- Yeah, I figured that was it; the setup of the question was confusing. I had to stare at it a few seconds before I got it back when I dug it up for the other topic. But the grammar is, luckily, crystal clear.

[Alyska]

Yeah, Onua probably only manipulates the topsoil to create a pseudo earthquake- no actual tectonic movement. I don't know whether a Toa of Stone would be able to budge a whole tectonic plate- if so, probably not very far or for very long, but he could vibrate rock particles in the soil for similar effect. There's probably at least some overlap between the two elements with things like sedimentary rock- stone composed of compressed dirt and organic matter.

 

If were looking at actual tectonic movement, we're probably looking for a kaita like Akamai- commanding stone, earth and fire would allow for manipulation of the flow of magma, which would make moving the plate much easier. I don't know if anyone else has directly controlled magma in the story.

[The Editor]

 

It's your personal opinion he's wrong, but he was the primary source of canon for G1 Bionicle. I think you're making too big a deal out of this, because so far what Bones and the rest have been saying do make sense. If it doesn't to you, it doesn't matter, because it's canon. For instance, Nuparu conducting electricity through one of Thok's ice (not a conductor of electricity) blasts to electrocute him in Power Play makes no sense at all. Does it bother me? Yes. Do I need to accept it? Yeah, it's canon. No amount of arguing about how wrong Greg may be on something doesn't change how canonical it is, and that's a fact you need to accept.

 

I appreciate the recognition, but you might be surprised to hear I actually disagree with this. At least, "a fact you need to accept" is... how to put it? It can come across the wrong way, you know?

 

I believe you simply mean recognize that it is canon, but I don't think the critics of perceived mistakes are usually focusing on that. 

 

 

... Okay, whoops. Re-reading that shows me how it might look a little weird.

 

 

I think The Editor should have stated "not a good conductor." Both pure water and ice are very poor conductors of electricity, but that doesn't mean you can't force something through. Also, the common perception is that water is actually a good conductor, so from a story standpoint Greg can be forgiven for sending Lightning through Ice. The science of the ostensibly science-fiction/fantasy of BIONICLE has always required a large dose of salt for those who know science.

 

 

Also, ice isn't a conductor of electricity, last I checked, and I just did some googling to make sure I'm right. That's impure water you're thinking of. And I totally agree with your second point - when I first read it, I thought the physics checked out. Anyway, I guess it's odd to nitpick about proper science when we're talking about a saga based around the activities of superpowered biomechanical beings inside a giant space robot. That has an island for a face.

[Xboxtravis]

Nerd Alert: Feel Free to Ignore my Ideas

 

Don't forget that frozen ice under glaciers is technically a Metamorphic Rock (mineral crystals compressed by pressure to form a new solid mass), so Ice could under that definition fall into Pohatu or Onua's domain... And if ice is made of water shouldn't Gali be able to use the water trapped a glacier? Or the water trapped in an opal rock?

[Erasmus Graves]

Man, we've got some serious geological and scientific discussion happening here!

Good on you, one and all. 

 

Woohoo! My one-hundredth post!

Edited December 11, 2015 by Erasmus Graves