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...and no, not in-reference to you GSR. :P

 

 

Alright, so I have a question, pretty simple one at that: did the Great Spirit Robot (GSR) ever incorporate or have access to Faster-Than-Light (FTL) technology in order to cut time between extra-solar space travel?

 

This thought came into my head and it made me wonder, to have a frame of reference, how long would it take to travel from the Sol System to the Alpha Centauri System with just space drifting and rockets. Upon looking it up, it would appear it would take tens of thousands of years just to get to the border. Maybe there are closer star systems to the Solis Magna System in comparison to that of Sol's, but it just seems like a huge amount of the Great Spirit's time just drifting into the unknown (we don't know if the Great Beings ever had a Hubble Telescope-equivalent to help chart the void). If Solis Magna's distance to it's closest star system is the same as Sol's, then Mata Nui would have only visited only about 10 or so star systems with the possibility of having no knowledge of their being life on any of the planets that make up a star system, thus just shooting blindly in the dark with only the awesome power of destiny/fate/fortune/luck by his side. 

 

I'm not sure, the whole thing seems kind of weird to me. Anyone want to help try and clear this up?

 

 

 

EDIT: Fixed typos and made word exchanges.

Edited by Iaredios Paerkenon
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From the Official Greg Compendium:

 

Several interesting things lined up in a few posts here.

 

As an aside, Mata Nui wasn't capable of faster-than-light travel.

 

 

Is the Mata Nui Robot capable of faster-than-light travel with the Red Star on its back?

No

 

 

Oh Greg, how you make my head hurt sometimes...

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Well, travelling faster than light would have similar nonsensical effects to travelling backwards in time (assuming BIONICLE physics is similar to ours), which is why both are banned.

 

It is a good point about the distances between stars and the time taken to reach them. However, if the GSR were somehow able to travel at, say, half the speed of light, it would still be able to visit many star systems (eg. it would take 20 years to reach a star 10 light years away; a short time compared to Mata Nui's tens of thousands of years exploring the universe).

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From the Official Greg Compendium:

 

Several interesting things lined up in a few posts here.

 

As an aside, Mata Nui wasn't capable of faster-than-light travel.

 

 

Is the Mata Nui Robot capable of faster-than-light travel with the Red Star on its back?

No

 

 

 

Greg is so boring, honestly. :t

 

the answer is probably yes, it's a spacecraft in a sci-fi world and it hops between star systems like nobody's business, of course it goes at warp-speed. :u

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Well you assume that the stellar neighbourhood of Solis Magna has a similar distribution of stars to our own stellar neighbourhood.  Maybe the stars are all much closer so Mata Nui would not have had to travel so far.

 

Conversely, Mata Nui only needed to visit planets with intelligent life on them.  Maybe there just weren't that many for him to go to.

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Well maybe that is why the Matoran were built to live millions of years (or maybe more...). Slow travel doesn,'t matter for the near immortal

Haha! This doesn't excuse the absurd lifespans on Bara Magna, but goes a way to justifying Matoran living for millennia like we do years.

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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Well maybe that is why the Matoran were built to live millions of years (or maybe more...). Slow travel doesn,'t matter for the near immortal

Haha! This doesn't excuse the absurd lifespans on Bara Magna, but goes a way to justifying Matoran living for millennia like we do years.

 

 

Nothing can excuse the absurd lifespans on Bara Magna...

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Nothing can excuse the absurd lifespans on Bara Magna...

Nothing in-universe anyway. Sloppy world building works quite well for most logical inconsistencies otherwise.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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...and no, not in-reference to you GSR. :P

 

Alright, so I have a question, pretty simple one at that: did the Great Spirit Robot (GSR) ever incorporate or have access to Faster-Than-Light (FTL) technology in order to cut time between inter-solar space travel?

 

This thought came into my head and it made me wonder, to have a frame of reference, how long would it take to travel from the Sol System to the Alpha Centauri System with just space drifting and rockets. Upon looking it up, it would appear it would take tens of thousands of years just to get to the border. Maybe there are closer star systems to the Solis Magna System in comparison to that of Sol's, but it just seems like a huge amount of the Great Spirit's time just drifting into the unknown (we don't know if the Great Beings ever had a Hubble Telescope-equivalent to help chart the void). If Solis Magna's distance to it's closest star system is the same as Sol's, then Mata Nui would have only visited only about 10 or so star systems with the possibility of having no knowledge of their being life on any of the planets that make up a star system, thus just shooting blindly in the dark with only the awesome power of destiny/fate/fortune/luck by your side. 

 

I'm not sure, the whole thing seems kind of weird to me. Anyone want to help try and clear this up?

 

I suppose it really depends on how fast the GSR was traveling. If it was moving at half the speed of light, then it would take only two years to make it to Alpha Centauri. That's easily doable. Additionally, I would assume Mata Nui would have hyper-sophisticated equipment which would let him scan for other intelligent life-forms.

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It really doesn't matter; either way works since his journey took almost 100,000 years, and it was established that at least the Solis Magna system had several other inhabited planets that we didn't see. He may only have studied a relative handful of actual systems, which would work if the planets were similar enough to Spherus Magna to achieve his mission of understanding them enough to do the reforming. We were only given one image depicting the other planets he studied, and it was indeed only a handful. That could be interpreted as early in his journeys so nowhere near the final total, but it needn't be. All that matters is he traveled to several planets and studied them.

 

FTL would be a reasonable route to go, though, given the massively powerful variety of powers available in Bionicle, so those who say it couldn't be used are missing the mark IMO. More likely the thinking was "that's been done", and since Bionicle had these vast timespans to work with, it was probably wiser to go in that case with something more realistic.

 

 

 

Nothing can excuse the absurd lifespans on Bara Magna...


Nothing in-universe anyway. Sloppy world building works quite well for most logical inconsistencies otherwise.

Actually this is a common misconception. Although the likelihood of accidents ending lives over that span of time is admittedly difficult to explain (but made a bit easier with being somewhat biomechanical due to technological alteration and wearing armor), the biological side of it is possible so long as every method of decay is matched exactly (minus sliiightly, since they do have spans) with a repairing system. Real biology has such systems, they just aren't universal enough and powerful enough to keep us going that long. But we CAN keep going for up to around a hundred years, which compared to most complex systems is a staggeringly long amount of time.

 

Always be wary of universal negative assumptions like that. :P

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Nothing can excuse the absurd lifespans on Bara Magna...

Nothing in-universe anyway. Sloppy world building works quite well for most logical inconsistencies otherwise.

Actually this is a common misconception. Although the likelihood of accidents ending lives over that span of time is admittedly difficult to explain (but made a bit easier with being somewhat biomechanical due to technological alteration and wearing armor), the biological side of it is possible so long as every method of decay is matched exactly (minus sliiightly, since they do have spans) with a repairing system. Real biology has such systems, they just aren't universal enough and powerful enough to keep us going that long. But we CAN keep going for up to around a hundred years, which compared to most complex systems is a staggeringly long amount of time.

 

Always be wary of universal negative assumptions like that. :P

 

Except the bara magna lifespans not only over-suspend dibelief, but breaks literally ALL of the story weight, Ackar was alive during the core war, he was alive BEFORE the core war. EVERYONE was alive before the core war, which was like, 20,000 years ago?

 

it's more than unrealistic, it's boring, and frankly, pointless to the story.

 

(also greg sayign things like FTL travel and time travel aren't menat for bionicle while letting all the other horrible stuff in is like, grade A poor story leading.)

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it's more than unrealistic, it's boring, and frankly, pointless to the story.

It's not pointless to the story. If the Core War had happened, say, 15 generations ago it would be like the American Revolution is in terms of our thinking today. Yeah, sure, it had a massive impact on the world that still kinda sorta extends to today, but the dynamic of all of those generations in the middle has changed and re-contextualized and re-interpreted that particular event in history.

 

If the Core War happened within one generation, it would be like, say, the war in Iraq. I personally lived through the war in Iraq, so I am more likely to use that to influence my thinking than the American Revolution - at least, in terms of political thought. (Probably not the best example, but you get what I'm saying - there's comparably very little resentment between Americans and Brits compared to what it was like in 1776.)

 

Bara Magna's culture was heavily established as a static culture, that hadn't changed much in 100,000 years. The reason that they did the Glatorian system for so long was that the reasoning was applied to stop another Core War - a memory still fresh in everyone's heads, since everyone was still alive at that time. Creativity was artificially quashed by the reality of that tragedy (and lack of resources) - otherwise the Glatorian or Agori might have invented the gravity canons and guidance systems needed to restore the planet before Mata Nui came back. A generational dynamic might have finally ditched the Glatorian system and made peace, allowing them to pose a united front to their enemies and go further than they did, which would render Mata Nui useless - or less useful than he was. No suspense there. (To get out of that, you would have to vastly shorten Mata Nui's travel time, but they decided not to go that way.)

 

In doing so, Bara Magna posits the theory - or perhaps illuminates a reality - that the short lifespans and dynamic of generations are why human beings have technologically advanced and changed so rapidly. It's actually quite an interesting thought to play around with - if only to think about what it would be like if the distance from 1776 to 2015 was all one generation of people. That would be weird. 

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breaks literally ALL of the story weight

That seems like a completely arbitrary rule, frankly. Why should every story be forced into the same way things happen to work biologically (or technologically) for us? A story about a world with massive lifespans is just as valid as one about warp drive, etc. -- all things we don't have here.

 

Or elemental powers. ;)

 

Actually, biology lasting longer is far MORE believable than either of those things!

 

And I have found the concept neverendingly fascinating to explore. Although Bionicle didn't really do a great job of exploring what that would be like. (Then again, the characters would be used to it and don't know about us, so it's not like there's a lot of opportunity to draw the comparison in-story.)

Edited by bonesiii
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The GSR never actually traveled oustide of the Solis Magna system, according to Greg. Yeah, it sounds hard to believe and the only reason I remember this is because I was so shocked to hear it as well.

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For the first time in four years ... the Bionicle story comes to a close

with the Bionicle Disunity trilogy

 

Were you as shocked as I was upon learning the Bionicle serials "The Yesterday Quest" and "The Powers That Be" would never be finished?

Did you know that Lego won't allow Greg Farshtey to complete the story because they want to focus on marketing G2?

 

My close friend The Mad Great Being has been working tirelessly on completing the Bionicle story ... and now it is finally finished. His writing style stays

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That seems like a completely arbitrary rule, frankly. Why should every story be forced into the same way things happen to work biologically (or technologically) for us? A story about a world with massive lifespans is just as valid as one about warp drive, etc. -- all things we don't have here.

 

Or elemental powers. ;)

 

Actually, biology lasting longer is far MORE believable than either of those things!

 

And I have found the concept neverendingly fascinating to explore. Although Bionicle didn't really do a great job of exploring what that would be like. (Then again, the characters would be used to it and don't know about us, so it's not like there's a lot of opportunity to draw the comparison in-story.)

 

 

Yawn.

 

this is a sci-fantasy story, "belivable" is hardly the main problem, the problem is boring. it's all boring, nobody want everyone in a story to be an immortal, even the everymen. there is no appeal, for instance, to having Berix or Taipu around for godlike ammounts of time. this practically elevates their longevity to godlike levels, on par with the "mystical timeless heroes" as far as living forever goes.

 

 

 

it's more than unrealistic, it's boring, and frankly, pointless to the story.

It's not pointless to the story. If the Core War had happened, say, 15 generations ago it would be like the American Revolution is in terms of our thinking today. Yeah, sure, it had a massive impact on the world that still kinda sorta extends to today, but the dynamic of all of those generations in the middle has changed and re-contextualized and re-interpreted that particular event in history.

 

If the Core War happened within one generation, it would be like, say, the war in Iraq. I personally lived through the war in Iraq, so I am more likely to use that to influence my thinking than the American Revolution - at least, in terms of political thought. (Probably not the best example, but you get what I'm saying - there's comparably very little resentment between Americans and Brits compared to what it was like in 1776.)

 

Bara Magna's culture was heavily established as a static culture, that hadn't changed much in 100,000 years. The reason that they did the Glatorian system for so long was that the reasoning was applied to stop another Core War - a memory still fresh in everyone's heads, since everyone was still alive at that time. Creativity was artificially quashed by the reality of that tragedy (and lack of resources) - otherwise the Glatorian or Agori might have invented the gravity canons and guidance systems needed to restore the planet before Mata Nui came back. A generational dynamic might have finally ditched the Glatorian system and made peace, allowing them to pose a united front to their enemies and go further than they did, which would render Mata Nui useless - or less useful than he was. No suspense there. (To get out of that, you would have to vastly shorten Mata Nui's travel time, but they decided not to go that way.)

 

In doing so, Bara Magna posits the theory - or perhaps illuminates a reality - that the short lifespans and dynamic of generations are why human beings have technologically advanced and changed so rapidly. It's actually quite an interesting thought to play around with - if only to think about what it would be like if the distance from 1776 to 2015 was all one generation of people. That would be weird. 

 

 

I can guarantee this is in no way the idea the story team was going with, they just, somehow felt, the story would be easier to tell if we could get all the flashbacks in the form of memories of the current cast, even the "thousands of years ago" stuff. there is no real-life value to Kiina being a rambunctious teenager forever.

 

 

The GSR never actually traveled oustide of the Solis Magna system, according to Greg. Yeah, it sounds hard to believe and the only reason I remember this is because I was so shocked to hear it as well.

 

Case in point, Greg has no idea what he's doing.

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it's more than unrealistic, it's boring, and frankly, pointless to the story.

It's not pointless to the story. If the Core War had happened, say, 15 generations ago it would be like the American Revolution is in terms of our thinking today. Yeah, sure, it had a massive impact on the world that still kinda sorta extends to today, but the dynamic of all of those generations in the middle has changed and re-contextualized and re-interpreted that particular event in history.

 

If the Core War happened within one generation, it would be like, say, the war in Iraq. I personally lived through the war in Iraq, so I am more likely to use that to influence my thinking than the American Revolution - at least, in terms of political thought. (Probably not the best example, but you get what I'm saying - there's comparably very little resentment between Americans and Brits compared to what it was like in 1776.)

 

Bara Magna's culture was heavily established as a static culture, that hadn't changed much in 100,000 years. The reason that they did the Glatorian system for so long was that the reasoning was applied to stop another Core War - a memory still fresh in everyone's heads, since everyone was still alive at that time. Creativity was artificially quashed by the reality of that tragedy (and lack of resources) - otherwise the Glatorian or Agori might have invented the gravity canons and guidance systems needed to restore the planet before Mata Nui came back. A generational dynamic might have finally ditched the Glatorian system and made peace, allowing them to pose a united front to their enemies and go further than they did, which would render Mata Nui useless - or less useful than he was. No suspense there. (To get out of that, you would have to vastly shorten Mata Nui's travel time, but they decided not to go that way.)

 

In doing so, Bara Magna posits the theory - or perhaps illuminates a reality - that the short lifespans and dynamic of generations are why human beings have technologically advanced and changed so rapidly. It's actually quite an interesting thought to play around with - if only to think about what it would be like if the distance from 1776 to 2015 was all one generation of people. That would be weird. 

 

 

I can guarantee this is in no way the idea the story team was going with, they just, somehow felt, the story would be easier to tell if we could get all the flashbacks in the form of memories of the current cast, even the "thousands of years ago" stuff. there is no real-life value to Kiina being a rambunctious teenager forever.

 

Really? How do you know this? How do you know that they weren't going for this idea all along? Were you around in 2009 and read a bunch of Greg quotes that said so? Then how can you guarantee it?

 

I didn't. Now, to be fair, I didn't read a bunch of Greg quotes that said they were, per se, but the idea is still there, in the story, as result of the 100,000+ year lifespan and the lack of technological innovation in there, whether they intended it or not. 

 

Now your Kiina argument would be an argument against the theory: ironically - people do change over time, after all, and portraying her as an overly youthful persona might have been scraping the edge of the suspension of disbelief. But then again, I know of someone IRL who is in his fifties who posts on a Twitter account like he's barely scraping the edge of 18 - he has more youthful enthusiasm than some 10 year olds I know. It's possible, however unlikely. I seriously doubt that she will remain that way forever, however. 

 

Really, RL, at this point I get it - you assume that poor storytelling is responsible for all the things that are hard to explain in Bionicle. But point being, it is an assumption...and one that has very little proof behind it. Clearly Greg and the others intended to make a story "that required work to understand" by their own admission. Delving into complex subjects is not a storytelling flaw - in fact, it is commonly considered an asset in literature and so many other areas of life. And while I'll admit to loving simplicity as much as the next, if we got stuck there we would never go deeper than Aesop's fables. And you can argue that "it's a kid's story, so it must be simple!". 

 

Yeah. Lego internalized that and we get things like Hero Factory and Chima. 

 

Yawn. 

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Clearly Greg and the others intended to make a story "that required work to understand" by their own admission.

 

I'm sory, i lose the ability to respond whenever this is siad because it is so mind-numbingly, so GregF-ingly condescending it makes my brain melt and leak out through my teeth.

 

Complexity =/= Value, from what i hear, most of the bionicle fans here seem3ed to like "magic robot warriors on a tropical island" a lot more than "giant robot science experiment to repair the world that was destroyed by its own greedy immortal inhabitants who permenantly rest in limbo between organic and mechanical because set design and gre couldn't decide which was which."

 

and that, i do have proof of. :t

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The GSR never actually traveled oustide of the Solis Magna system, according to Greg

Do you have a quote for this? I've wondered this based on his statement that there were many other alien worlds in the same system, but I don't recall him confirming it, or hearing anybody else say this. I would want to see a quote because if this one is incorrect it could lead to massive rumors.

 

 

RL, I don't expect you to share others' perspectives on the long lifespans, but the fact remains that neither do we share yours. I like that fiction challenges us to consider what things would be like if they were different, and on some things dramatically different (as long as common ground is still provided, and it is). Ultimately that's the point of fiction, really, and that's very beneficial.

 

Like I said, I don't think Bionicle did a top-notch job of that on this, but I still really appreciated the consistent use of it for how it inspires me as a fan to think about it. :) And it did do it well in a lot of ways, really more than you'd expect for a kid's toy.

 

 

Actually, though, I think what was going on with the SM lifespans specifically was kind of the opposite of trying to be different, but rather to keep a few things consistent with the MU feel of things, since they were changing so much so fast that year. :) Still, it ends up creating an even more poignant difference with humans because we can no longer so easily rely on them just being artificial, so it actually ended up being even more inspiring for it. (That said, I was a fan of one of the big fan productions early on that took the interesting approach of bringing short lifespans to Bionicle... sadly I forget the name of the fanfic now though. :( Basically, variety. :))

 

Aaanywho. FTL... >_>

 

Edit: Missed this:

 

portraying her as an overly youthful persona might have been scraping the edge of the suspension of disbelief.

Nah, we all know about grandparents starting to act like little kids again. :lol:

Edited by bonesiii
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Clearly Greg and the others intended to make a story "that required work to understand" by their own admission.

 

I'm sory, i lose the ability to respond whenever this is siad because it is so mind-numbingly, so GregF-ingly condescending it makes my brain melt and leak out through my teeth.

 

Complexity =/= Value, from what i hear, most of the bionicle fans here seem3ed to like "magic robot warriors on a tropical island" a lot more than "giant robot science experiment to repair the world that was destroyed by its own greedy immortal inhabitants who permenantly rest in limbo between organic and mechanical because set design and gre couldn't decide which was which."

 

and that, i do have proof of. :t

 

I'm sure that most fans liked 2001 over 2009. 2001 is definitely better than 2009 IMO. 

 

And why does that make the Bara Magna lifespans terrible again?

 

 

Oh, yeah, gotta get back on topic. Um. Yep, the Solis Magna system thing is correct.

 

 

Also, how did Mata Nui observe all those star systems when he was active? The distances between them would be tremendous, and if he wanted to visit them all in the time that he did, he would need to use teleportation or travel faster than light.

 

Perhaps he worked more as a telescope, like Voyager 1? He would stay within the range of the Red Star (if it has a range), and it would be fairly efficient.

 

He was not traveling between star systems, he was traveling to planets within the Solis Magna system.

 

Of course, that begs the question of why it took sooo long to do that, hmm. 

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He could have been taking his time in studying them. :shrugs:

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Ahhhh, well, looking back I believe I made a mistake reading the quote from here: https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/td-p/6605180/page/701

 

"Hi Mr Greg 

 

1. Mata Nui explored the all of the system of solis magna? Because for one hundred thousand years of spatial travel I think he would have had time to explore it in full. 

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

1) He most likely went beyond that solar system"

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For the first time in four years ... the Bionicle story comes to a close

with the Bionicle Disunity trilogy

 

Were you as shocked as I was upon learning the Bionicle serials "The Yesterday Quest" and "The Powers That Be" would never be finished?

Did you know that Lego won't allow Greg Farshtey to complete the story because they want to focus on marketing G2?

 

My close friend The Mad Great Being has been working tirelessly on completing the Bionicle story ... and now it is finally finished. His writing style stays

true to the integrity of the characters that we know and love.  His plot ideas are something only comparable to Greg Farshtey's.

 

Trust me, I'm hard to please with fan-fiction.  If you liked reading Bionicle Chronicles/Adventures/Legends ... then you won't

want to miss the next best thing since learning Mata Nui was a 40-million-foot-tall robot.

 

BZP User The Mad Great Being presents ... Bionicle: Malevolence

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/19970-the-great-being-civil-war/

 

Sponsored by Wamsutta

 

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Ahhhh, well, looking back I believe I made a mistake reading the quote from here: https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/td-p/6605180/page/701

 

"Hi Mr Greg 

 

1. Mata Nui explored the all of the system of solis magna? Because for one hundred thousand years of spatial travel I think he would have had time to explore it in full. 

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

1) He most likely went beyond that solar system"

Actually, good catch. That quote is from page 701, while my quote is from page 613. Yours is probably more reliable as a result. 

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The problem with the lifespans on Bara Magna is, that despite the good points both Fishers and Bonesiii raised, that a 10,000-year time is difficult to grasp even for adults, let alone the teenagers (us) or kids (new fans) who were around and interested. It made sense for the GSR, since it's essentially a spaceship. Bara Manga, however, is a planet, and things on a planet change and evolve. We have no evidence for any living being surviving 10 thousand years without some sort of suspended animation, and even then, these are very simple organisms like tardigrades or bacteria. Also, three thousand years ago in our history, the Classical civilizations that form the basis for modern culture had barely risen. Asking us to believe that not only had the culture and civilization of Bara Magna remained stagnant for over three times the entire existence of Western Civilization is frankly, ridiculous.

Had I the chance, this is what I would've suggested;

Keep the GSR lifespans, but make the Agori/Glatorian fully robotic, or at least have the same robot/organic ratio that the GSR inhabitants did. They are the last remnants of a greater, more powerful civilization (Great Being-opia?) that had organic/cybernetic inhabitants (Great Beings) with their robotic/cyborganic servant 'Agoritorians'. The Shattering/Core War occurred (I'm fine with this history). The Great Beings, so named because they were the masters of the Agoritorians, slowly died out in the "Mad Max"-style desert that was left, but not before Flinging a Light Into the Future in the form of the GSR.
 
After the GSR left and the last Great Being child grew old and died in the care of its Agoritorian servants, the Agoritorians were left in a crumbling world. Without the know-how of the Great Beings, they couldn't maintain the cities and infrastructure, which was eventually buried by the desert sands and lost. The Agoritorians still believed their Great Beings would come back for them, not comprehending the concept of 'extinction' when applied to their masters, and so rebuilt villages and dwelling places for them. They remembered the GBs had different countries, and so chose different places for the villages.
 
Over time, the Agoritorians (I'm getting tired of typing that) split into factions. Those that had decided to maintain a village by the volcano became Fire Tribe, those by the broken remnants of a forest, the Jungle Tribe, and so on. Resources began to wear thin even for them, and the other, less peaceful creations of the GB Civilization like the Baterra and Skrall started encroaching on the villages they kept ready for the GBs. And so, they learned to fight. Eventually, they started fighting each other, and the Arena System evolved. Then, one day, a GB relic fell from the sky; a broken helmet, little more than a Mask...

 
This way, Metus, Kiina, Ackar and the rest have their absurd lifespans because they are essentially the 'Last Gen' iterations of the Matoran and Toa. Takua was the flagship model that would have entered production had the Core War never happened. The Matoran-Toa-Turaga evolution was designed so that the model would 'grow up' with its owner, and the (powerless then) Masks were designed as safety features. Instead, the Matoran were repurposed as construction and maintenance for the GSR, and so the "Agoritorian" models were left behind, obsolete, as their masters died out.
 
Had the Core War never happened and the GSR never had to be built, the Agoritorian models would have been phased out, replaced by 'Matoran' model servant-bots. Likely, most of the rest of the GB-created inhabitants of the GSR would never have been built at all, like the Makuta and Bohrok. The 'First Rahi' might have been amusement park rides, weapons, or whatever, but the Iron Wolves could be placed alongside those giant sea beasts in GB history, even without the new theory above.
 
This can safely explain why the Glatorians remember the Core War, and why they can behave like teenagers and old men despite being more or less the same age. It also helps with why the MoLife could 'update' them into faux-Toa, and why they got along quickly with the Toa that came out of Makuta-GSR while identifying the Rahkshi/Skrall/DH as opponents; they were essentially the same thing already, so the Bara Magnans could work off the Matoaran's thought process.
 
I'm not going to touch the Elemental Powers. That can slide comfortably under suspension of disbelief.

 

Though a thought occurs; By returning the water, dirt and various machine-unfriendly contaminants to Spherus Magna, Mata Nui might have 'ruined' the world for the Agori/Matoran society, just like the Shattering did to the GBs. Just imagine a century after the story ends with Gali and Kiina (for example) sitting, inert, in a swamp while metal-eating organic creatures dissolve their broken bodies. :'(

 

And my theory could also link into G2, but let's not start that here.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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The problem with the lifespans on Bara Magna is, that despite the good points both Fishers and Bonesiii raised, that a 10,000-year time is difficult to grasp even for adults, let alone the teenagers (us) or kids (new fans) who were around and interested. It made sense for the GSR, since it's essentially a spaceship.

Keep in mind we didn't know that in 2001. Of course, nor did we know how old they were, but we knew they were "older than you" or whatever the exact quote was. It is an interesting choice for a kid's story, especially since they made some of them seem to childlike. I could see kids having lots of different reactions to that -- example of bad, many didn't like constant reminders that there were others older than them, example of good, they could relate ironically well to such super-old characters which could make aging less frightening. :shrugs:

 

(Sorry I don't have time to read the rest of your post now. >_< But posting this already anyways for the below:)

 

 

Re: Solis-only vs not -- this sounds like something Greg might not have focused on enough for either quote to be reliable. Could we bring this up in the way the Rahi revived or not issue was, and see if he has a reason for one answer over the other? Otherwise either one might be a forgetcon, and on something the actual story didn't really comment on either way. I for one am curious what the actual decision would be if it was focused on. :)

 

 

Edit: Regitnui, is it false that a society could be stagnant for that long or not? It seems like at best an untested hypothesis, since we are not that long-lived. But if we were, and we also shared every other trait that Agori/Glatorian are portrayed with, would we? I think that's extremely debatable to say the least.

 

You also seem to suggest that because life that complex does not live so long here, it couldn't in a fictional world, but that's another sweeping negative assumption, and we already are learning a lot of ways it might be done. Somebody did a special in recent years on how it might be done and what life would be like if it was. I think one of the guys from Mythbusters might have been on it, don't quote me on it though. :P I think it won't likely happen in my lifetime, but to say it's absurd that it could in any hypothetical planet seems like just a guess to me.

 

I'm not sure if this is directly to your point there, as you spent little time on this and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I was thinking about it yesterday before seeing your post anyways -- another factor here is that advancement in the Great Beings' inventions happened before this story starts (before the Core War). If that hadn't been the case, then I could see the plausibility being an issue, but it was. We don't know that lifespans were always that long before that; it could be that their tech was the main difference.

 

(But it's also just as valid that an alien lifeform could have traits we lack that make it, or something close, biologically possible. In fact, as discussed in past topics, the real trick is not so much living beyond a certain point in terms of sci-fi plausibility but how you can get past a point around 10,000 years and yet still have a span at all, as having decay build up that that slight is hard to explain. But that depends on so many factors that aren't established and we can't rule it out either, and some possible mechanisms for that have been discussed, like some sort of multi-"digit" counting method unlike our linear "endcaps".)

 

And with respect, brushing aside elemental powers and yet not accepting the thing we actually do have some idea how it could be possible in terms we actually can begin to grasp right here and right now, does not make sense.

 

Now, this only affects the plausibility point, not the other issue of stagnancy. To that I'll just say that it isn't a new idea in sci-fi. Star Trek TOS had an episode similar to this, a very old society that had indeed stagnated, although I don't think lifespans were involved in that. I think it's a mistake to just assume that possibilities like this couldn't happen in ANY society regardless of the factors!

 

Reading on, it actually looks like you're touching on my GB-influence-on-lifespans idea... but it looks like you're suggesting it is not already in the story? Not confirmed as far as I know, but it seems unlikely it isn't a factor. :shrugs:

 

I don't think they need to be all or mostly robotic for that to work, especially since robotic type things actually tend to wear out faster than biology in real life. I think both for Matoran and Agori, biologic brains at least are essential and with enough genetic repair methods to nearly balance out decay. For Matoran at least, the ability to rebuild pretty much any other part when it wears out works, but for Agori, the same biologic solutions work too, with replacement of implants and armor. But yes, that's yet another valid way the story could have gone. :)

 

And the GBs did largely leave the picture.

 

(Off-topic: We usually just shorten Agori/Glatorian to "Agori" if it helps, since they're presumably all related. :) Similar to "Matoran" including Toa... kind of.)

Edited by bonesiii
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The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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The problem with the lifespans on Bara Magna is, that despite the good points both Fishers and Bonesiii raised, that a 10,000-year time is difficult to grasp even for adults, let alone the teenagers (us) or kids (new fans) who were around and interested.

The problem with this, is that you say later in this post that it is okay for the GSR's inhabitants to have 100,000 year lifespans, so I'm not sure why this is actually supporting the rest of what you're saying. Difficult to grasp is difficult to grasp, regardless of whether a spaceship or a planet is under consideration.

 

It made sense for the GSR, since it's essentially a spaceship. Bara Manga, however, is a planet, and things on a planet change and evolve.

But the question posed here is why things on a planet change and evolve. Is it generational turnover? Frankly, evolution (not to get into a discussion of that) blames a ton of changes on generational turnover. Is it because people change with time? The logically informed answer is probably both, which is why the "long lifespan with no change/maturing" is so hard to believe.

 

Also, Bara Magna was a pretty static environment compared to the Great Spirit Robot. It basically was a 100,000 years of routine survival and the occasional arena match. Not really much happening. By contrast the GSR was full of rapid changes and wars and conflicts and massacres, things that would make a young Matoran grow up in a hurry - cue Mazeka.

 

I really think the science fiction trope of spaceships being more static than planets in general doesn't make much sense, as has been debunked by other science fiction tales (really, there was a lot more stuff going on the Enterprise than in the Federations' star base) and just plain real life (things changed pretty rapidly on those Apollo moon missions, a whole lot faster than the average Earth denizen below). Dynamic environs like that change your thinking faster than sitting in an office doing the same repetitive tasks over and over again. 

 

Also, three thousand years ago in our history, the Classical civilizations that form the basis for modern culture had barely risen. Asking us to believe that not only had the culture and civilization of Bara Magna remained stagnant for over three times the entire existence of Western Civilization is frankly, ridiculous.

Actually, on our own planet we are still encountering tribal cultures on islands like Papa New Guinea that act in a way that we would consider "backward". Their culture has remained largely stagnant for the entirety of Western civilization, and is now advancing because Western civilization has now found them. 

 

This is not to insult anyone who lived in that culture - that way of living, for them, has just worked for a long time, so they never felt the need to change it. The same way that the Bara Magnans might not have ever felt the need to change theirs, perhaps out of guilt over the war. 

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that way of living, for them, has just worked for a long time, so they never felt the need to change it. The same way that the Bara Magnans might not have ever felt the need to change theirs, perhaps out of guilt over the war. 

 

 

Or perhaps it was just because they were the NEW Immortal Cyborgs 2! in the never-before-seen Pseudo-Roman-Desert-Dweller flavor!

 

And also, tldr: not quoting the bones post because bones posts are always hulking monoliths to quote,

 

back on the topic but also related to bones post i dare not quote: Bionicle isn't really trying to defy norms or bend thinking, it's just trying to tell a quite frankly, simple story. In fact, i dare to say probably the most outside-the-box thinking in all its 10 years was the magic-robot-medicine plot. you know, the one greg kept trying to shove to the wayside ever since 2003 barring maybe 2008?

Edited by Rahkshi Lalonde

bnnrimg1.pngbnnrimg2.pngbnnrimg3.pngbnnrimg4.pngbnnrimg5.pngbnnrimg8.png

 

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you know, the one TLG kept trying to shove to the wayside ever since 2003 barring maybe 2008?

Fix'd

 

OK, I didn't intend for my new explanation to be objectively better than what we had. It was just an illustration for how the agori arc could have been done better. Since they were essentially matoran, make them the 'last generation' who've deified their builders because their memory modules have started going wonky out in the wild, as opposed to their updated counterparts who were kept in a controlled environment. The glatorian have forgotten what the GBworld was like, and so built up a mythology and culture like the '01 matoran did.

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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that way of living, for them, has just worked for a long time, so they never felt the need to change it. The same way that the Bara Magnans might not have ever felt the need to change theirs, perhaps out of guilt over the war.

 

Or perhaps it was just because they were the NEW Immortal Cyborgs 2! in the never-before-seen Pseudo-Roman-Desert-Dweller flavor!

 

I just posited this theory a few posts up that them being immortal cyborgs contributed to the fact that Bara Magna's society was stagnant for 100,000 years.

 

You seem to agree. Excellent. :P

 

Bionicle isn't really trying to defy norms or bend thinking, it's just trying to tell a quite frankly, simple story. In fact, i dare to say probably the most outside-the-box thinking in all its 10 years was the magic-robot-medicine plot. you know, the one greg kept trying to shove to the wayside ever since 2003 barring maybe 2008?

Man, if I had a dime for every time someone told me "Bionicle was needlessly complex" or "Bionicle's complexity led to it being canceled" or "Bionicle is beautifully deep and complex." I would have a lot of money by now.

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Man, if I had a dime for every time someone told me "Bionicle was needlessly complex" or "Bionicle's complexity led to it being canceled" or "Bionicle is beautifully deep and complex." I would have a lot of money by now.

 

 

Good to see you're being sarcastic 'cause nobody says "bionicle is beautifully deep and complex" and actually means it.

 

well, some people do. bones does. i try to forget that. :t

bnnrimg1.pngbnnrimg2.pngbnnrimg3.pngbnnrimg4.pngbnnrimg5.pngbnnrimg8.png

 

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Man, if I had a dime for every time someone told me "Bionicle was needlessly complex" or "Bionicle's complexity led to it being canceled" or "Bionicle is beautifully deep and complex." I would have a lot of money by now.

 

 

Good to see you're being sarcastic 'cause nobody says "bionicle is beautifully deep and complex" and actually means it.

 

well, some people do. bones does. i try to forget that. :t

 

You'd be surprised - I do recall a lot of people saying that Bionicle's depth and complexity was what drew them in and/or wanting more of it, and then a bunch of other people coming in and telling them they can't get it because the complexity led to fandom inaccessibility which led to the line's cancellation.

 

If I had a dime for every time something to that effect was said on here, I would have my own house and car by now.

 

But wow this is off topic...

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Man, if I had a dime for every time someone told me "Bionicle was needlessly complex" or "Bionicle's complexity led to it being canceled" or "Bionicle is beautifully deep and complex." I would have a lot of money by now.

 

 

Good to see you're being sarcastic 'cause nobody says "bionicle is beautifully deep and complex" and actually means it.

 

well, some people do. bones does. i try to forget that. :t

 

You'd be surprised - I do recall a lot of people saying that Bionicle's depth and complexity was what drew them in and/or wanting more of it, and then a bunch of other people coming in and telling them they can't get it because the complexity led to fandom inaccessibility which led to the line's cancellation.

 

If I had a dime for every time something to that effect was said on here, I would have my own house and car by now.

 

But wow this is off topic...

 

Wow, you just noticed?

line.gif

new_roman_banner1.png

A RUDE AWAKENING - A Spherus Magna redo | Tzais-Kuluu  |  Pushing Back The Tide  |  Last Words  |  Black Coronation  | Blue Man Bound | Visions of Thasos   ن

We are all but grey specks in a dark complex before a single white light

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nobody says "bionicle is beautifully deep and complex" and actually means it.

 

well, some people do. bones does. i try to forget that. :t

Uh, no? O_o But some of us on here actually liked it. :P It is a Bionicle discussion forum. You'll run into that occasionally. :lol:

 

And for a toy, it certainly rose far above what we'd ever have expected!

 

Edit: And just for the record, as it seems like you honestly aren't aware of it, but your apparent estimation of fan reactions to Bionicle over the years on here is often wildly inaccurate. Sometimes right on the money (like saying 2001 was more popular than the end -- of course, it's well known across most franchises that beginnings usually are, especially ones where the fanbase finds out it was ending early), but I have been watching that closely on here since 2003. The giant robot, for example, was enthusiastically liked; it was one of the highlights of the later years (at least at the initial reveal). You seem to have the impression it wasn't, but that's incorrect. (Also, keep in mind it was central to the whole idea for Bionicle, so even if its reveal had bombed, we would ironically still owe the tropical island to that concept, and they really couldn't know how the reveal would go until they tried it.)

 

Now... can we please get back on-topic? If you're in the mood for general "how good/bad was XYZ in Bionicle?" subjects, it would be best to make one specifically about that. :)

Edited by bonesiii
  • Upvote 2

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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