Mask of Undeath: Completely Useless?

[The 1st Shadow]

You can thank my morning shower for this notion.

 

For your consideration, I present the Mask of Undeath (found at the bottom of the page).

 

For your convenience, I quote:

 

The Mask of Undeath is a Kanohi that siphons off a fraction of its user's life energy from their body, which it infuses the body with after death. The body is then animated by the lifeforce, and attempts to fulfill the last objective the user had while living. The mask gives the user no other special power and will slow down their processing, making it harder for them to fight. While undead, the user will lose all illumination in their eyes, making them empty and black.

 

 

Got it? A mask that reanimates the dead body and turns it into a slow-moving zombie.

 

So freaking helpful.

 

Problem #1--The built-up life force would obviously run out at some point, so if the user's last objective was to travel from Metru Nui to the southern islands, the life-force would deplete long before they ever got there. Plus, since their reactions are slowed due to a lack of true life, so sailing through a storm is just gonna end in them sinking to the bottom of the ocean. The only way I see this mask being of use is if the last objective in the user's mind involved the island they were on when they died, or could be accomplished in a few hours.

 

And...

 

Problem #2--How did they die? Were they decapitated? Was their head crushed? Were their limbs cut off like Anakin Skywalker's? If the mask is on the head, then decapitation makes it useless. If the brain is destroyed, then the mask is gonna have a hard time controlling what limbs might still be attached. The only way this mask really works is if the user died of old age, had the life drained from them, or they were stabbed through the chest. Too specific for any reasonable use.

 

And...

 

Problem #3--A mask that takes a dead body and reanimates it, allowing it to continue its task... Hey, wait a minute! Isn't that exactly what the RS was intended to do? If the RS just takes up the dead bodies so the Kestora can fix them and make them work again, so they can be sent back to the MU to continue living anyway. Before the sendback teleporter broke, why would anyone have needed this mask, for any reason? In those days, the RS would have sent them back as good as new. After it broke, the problem is that it still takes the bodies up, meaning they're gonna have a hard time finishing their last task when they can't even get back to the MU. So, by this point alone, the Mask of Undeath is entirely useless.

 

Unless, it only exists in an AU where the RS doesn't exist or the Kestora were never intended to do those repairs, or if there's a really long delay in teleporting the dead body up to the RS.

 

 

So, whaddaya think? Most pointless mask ever, since it's use is either extremely limited, or something else covers it entirely.

 

Thoughts? Theories? Thin mints?

[Bonkle]

That is a pretty worthless mask. However, one use I can think of is if it's some high-stakes situation -say, a villain about to do something pretty evil, and you're the only one around- getting back up right away when they think they've killed you might be sneaky enough to finish them off.

 

EDIT: I mean, if I wore something like a Rau or Kaukau, I would totally switch to this to go battle a Makuta.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Bonkle

[Naota Takizawa]

I got a list of useless/obsolete kanohi in no particular order:

 

-Rau: It may translate every known language in the MU, but take it outside the GSR and it loses all purpose.

-Zatth: A mask that can summon rahi, but not allow you to control or pick which animal to summon. That already makes the mask useless, but it gets even worse when you can't even send away an animal summoned by accident. This mask is an inferior version of the mask of Rahi Contril.

-Huna & Volitak: Two masks with the power to turn their user invisible and with the Volitak, the user can silence their own sounds. Unfortunately, the shadow that is cast with both masks reduces their usefulness so they can't be used anywhere in daylight or near a source of light.

-Mask of Clairvoyance: Not being able to change the future with this mask, no matter what you do to prevent the event from occurring?That's a pretty big flaw with the mask, but what makes it even more useless is the fact that you can't pick what you wish to see or when to see visions. Add in the inability to free yourself from a mental illusion and you have a pretty useless mask.

[fishers64]

Problem #3--A mask that takes a dead body and reanimates it, allowing it to continue its task... Hey, wait a minute! Isn't that exactly what the RS was intended to do? If the RS just takes up the dead bodies so the Kestora can fix them and make them work again, so they can be sent back to the MU to continue living anyway. Before the sendback teleporter broke, why would anyone have needed this mask, for any reason? In those days, the RS would have sent them back as good as new. After it broke, the problem is that it still takes the bodies up, meaning they're gonna have a hard time finishing their last task when they can't even get back to the MU. So, by this point alone, the Mask of Undeath is entirely useless.

The problem is actually location. The RS would not, according to Greg, bring you back to the same place you died, but rather to some other place in the MU to start a new life. The Mask of Undeath would keep you in the same spot, allowing you to finish your task before you died for real. That's it's point. 

 

That also nulls the traveling objection, since if you died in transit to your objective, the RS would revive you anyway, and the odds of you being even further set back in distance are about 50/50. But hey, now you are fully alive, and have more time in theory. 

[SPIRIT]

I got a list of useless/obsolete kanohi in no particular order:

 

-Rau: It may translate every known language in the MU, but take it outside the GSR and it loses all purpose.

-Zatth: A mask that can summon rahi, but not allow you to control or pick which animal to summon. That already makes the mask useless, but it gets even worse when you can't even send away an animal summoned by accident. This mask is an inferior version of the mask of Rahi Contril.

-Huna & Volitak: Two masks with the power to turn their user invisible and with the Volitak, the user can silence their own sounds. Unfortunately, the shadow that is cast with both masks reduces their usefulness so they can't be used anywhere in daylight or near a source of light.

-Mask of Clairvoyance: Not being able to change the future with this mask, no matter what you do to prevent the event from occurring?That's a pretty big flaw with the mask, but what makes it even more useless is the fact that you can't pick what you wish to see or when to see visions. Add in the inability to free yourself from a mental illusion and you have a pretty useless mask.

I agree with you on the other masks, but at least the Great Rau can do things like let you talk to certain Rahi.  The Noble one is a piece of junk.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think just about the only time Nokama thinks to use her Rau, the language she's trying to translate is too old for it.  The other time is that scene in Mask of Light where she's translating the text on the Avohkii, which 1) was written in regular Matoran anyway (but I can overlook the inclusion of an Easter Egg in this manner, though they could at least have had the decency of spelling their message correctly!), 2) was totally made up because the Turaga already knew all about the 7th Toa and it was all part of their lie!

 

Another bad one was Kopaka Nuva's Akaku.  Oh sure, X-Ray Vision is nice and all, but when you're in Karda Nui and literally the only things to see are enshrouded in mist and your mask's one weakness is an inability to see through mist, you'd just wearing a telescope on your face.

[The 1st Shadow]

I got a list of useless/obsolete kanohi in no particular order:

 

 

You, um, are aware that this isn't asking you what you think the most useless mask is, right?

 

The problem is actually location. The RS would not, according to Greg, bring you back to the same place you died, but rather to some other place in the MU to start a new life. The Mask of Undeath would keep you in the same spot, allowing you to finish your task before you died for real. That's it's point. 

 

 

Not the point. The RS is gonna scoop up your dead body and transport it up. The original "you" is still in the body, so if that last objective meant enough to you, you would just take a bit longer in getting around to it. But the point is, would you even have enough time to complete your last objective before the RS scoops up the body? Or does the MoU stall that system? With no explanations to the contrary, the mask is useless.

 

 

 

Another bad one was Kopaka Nuva's Akaku.  Oh sure, X-Ray Vision is nice and all, but when you're in Karda Nui and literally the only things to see are enshrouded in mist and your mask's one weakness is an inability to see through mist, you'd just wearing a telescope on your face.

 

Again, not a question about your choice of a useless mask, but I'll comment on this bit: You do know that the Akaku wasn't meant to be used in only Karda Nui, right? It happened to be Kopaka's personal mask, so that's what he wore in KN. Are you gonna say it was useless on Mata Nui and Voya Nui? Just because it was ineffective on a single mission doesn't make it useless.

 

The Mask of Undeath, on the other hand...

[fishers64]

 

 

The problem is actually location. The RS would not, according to Greg, bring you back to the same place you died, but rather to some other place in the MU to start a new life. The Mask of Undeath would keep you in the same spot, allowing you to finish your task before you died for real. That's it's point. 

 

 

Not the point. The RS is gonna scoop up your dead body and transport it up. The original "you" is still in the body, so if that last objective meant enough to you, you would just take a bit longer in getting around to it. But the point is, would you even have enough time to complete your last objective before the RS scoops up the body? Or does the MoU stall that system? With no explanations to the contrary, the mask is useless.

It depends on how the RS tells if someone is dead. A good way would be a lack of life energy - and the Mask of Undeath stores life energy in it and presumably uses it to reanimate the form of the person. This would delay being reported up, and thus removed. 

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

 

The problem is actually location. The RS would not, according to Greg, bring you back to the same place you died, but rather to some other place in the MU to start a new life. The Mask of Undeath would keep you in the same spot, allowing you to finish your task before you died for real. That's it's point. 

 

 

Not the point. The RS is gonna scoop up your dead body and transport it up. The original "you" is still in the body, so if that last objective meant enough to you, you would just take a bit longer in getting around to it. But the point is, would you even have enough time to complete your last objective before the RS scoops up the body? Or does the MoU stall that system? With no explanations to the contrary, the mask is useless.

It depends on how the RS tells if someone is dead. A good way would be a lack of life energy - and the Mask of Undeath stores life energy in it and presumably uses it to reanimate the form of the person. This would delay being reported up, and thus removed. 

 

It's also been considered that the process doesn't happen immediately, like it takes a few days. If one or both of those is true, then it might help to alleviate the third problem.

 

But what of the other two points? Does the amount of life energy affect how long the mask works? And for a mask that is useless while the user is alive, why make them so slow and sluggish after reanimating them? Exactly what sort of things could you accomplish like that in the MU?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I'm gonna agree that the mask of undeath, nay, essentially all of the "fan-canonized masks" hit the top of the list here. simply for most of them being far too... convoluted. compared to the "RPG standard" mask powers of bionicle proper. (summoning, shielding, X-ray-vision, levitation...)

 

 

-Rau: It may translate every known language in the MU, but take it outside the GSR and it loses all purpose.
-Zatth: A mask that can summon rahi, but not allow you to control or pick which animal to summon. That already makes the mask useless, but it gets even worse

 

It's worth noting here to say that the Zaath probably existed (out-of-story) before the mask of rahi-control, and has a more properly balanced power anyway.

 

and that the Rau, or any kanohi mask really, is only designed to be used in the MU, so that's hardly a flaw? ?:

Edited October 8, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

 

 

 

The problem is actually location. The RS would not, according to Greg, bring you back to the same place you died, but rather to some other place in the MU to start a new life. The Mask of Undeath would keep you in the same spot, allowing you to finish your task before you died for real. That's it's point. 

 

 

Not the point. The RS is gonna scoop up your dead body and transport it up. The original "you" is still in the body, so if that last objective meant enough to you, you would just take a bit longer in getting around to it. But the point is, would you even have enough time to complete your last objective before the RS scoops up the body? Or does the MoU stall that system? With no explanations to the contrary, the mask is useless.

It depends on how the RS tells if someone is dead. A good way would be a lack of life energy - and the Mask of Undeath stores life energy in it and presumably uses it to reanimate the form of the person. This would delay being reported up, and thus removed. 

 

It's also been considered that the process doesn't happen immediately, like it takes a few days. If one or both of those is true, then it might help to alleviate the third problem.

 

But what of the other two points? Does the amount of life energy affect how long the mask works? And for a mask that is useless while the user is alive, why make them so slow and sluggish after reanimating them? Exactly what sort of things could you accomplish like that in the MU?

 

Because the wearer and other affected things are zombies, and zombies walk around slowly because their organic material is heavily damaged. Oh, and don't forget all the moaning, drooling, arms fixed forward and feet draggin' all Halloween-style. As my obnoxious little brother often says, "3spooky5me".

[Toatapio Nuva]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Elda yet. All it does is direct you to the Mask of Life. The thing is, I would defend this mask's usefulness if it had actually been useful in the story, but it turned out the Piraka were the ones to find the way to the Mask of Life, and the Inika just followed. So in the story, the Elda did absolutely nothing except give Hahli headaches which she never learned to understand. And talk with the spirit form of Matoro, but still the mask is not worth it if you ask me.

 

As for the Mask of Undeath, I agree it's pretty useless. Like most fan-canonized masks. Those were just... unnecessary.

 

I absolutely disagree on the Rau being a useless mask. The great version allows you to talk to Rahi, which can be extremely useful, but I don't think the noble version is that bad either, given the proper circumstances. I'll admit that it wasn't useful a single time in the actual story, though.

[Petewa]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Elda yet. All it does is direct you to the Mask of Life. The thing is, I would defend this mask's usefulness if it had actually been useful in the story, but it turned out the Piraka were the ones to find the way to the Mask of Life, and the Inika just followed. So in the story, the Elda did absolutely nothing except give Hahli headaches which she never learned to understand. And talk with the spirit form of Matoro, but still the mask is not worth it if you ask me.

 

As for the Mask of Undeath, I agree it's pretty useless. Like most fan-canonized masks. Those were just... unnecessary.

 

I absolutely disagree on the Rau being a useless mask. The great version allows you to talk to Rahi, which can be extremely useful, but I don't think the noble version is that bad either, given the proper circumstances. I'll admit that it wasn't useful a single time in the actual story, though.

But the Elda has an epic mustache.

 

The Mask of Undeath...I like it, but that doesn't make it any less useless.

 

The Rau's a fine mask to wear, it would be moreso if Matoran could use Kanohi powers.

[Chip Wiseman]

Similar to the Mask of Undeath, I always wondered what the purpose of the Tryna was. It re-animates corpses as long as the wearer is concentrating hard enough... sounds cool, but if the Red Star was functioning properly (even while broken, the teleport-up function still worked) then there shouldn't have been any corpses to re-animate. Again, depending on how long the delay was between death and teleportation, this could have at least some use... but it's still very situational.

[You just lost the game]

The mask of undeath isn't "useless".

It's more like a very weak, basic-level necromancy mask. lol

Now the Rau, that's a useless mask.

[The 1st Shadow]

Similar to the Mask of Undeath, I always wondered what the purpose of the Tryna was. It re-animates corpses as long as the wearer is concentrating hard enough... sounds cool, but if the Red Star was functioning properly (even while broken, the teleport-up function still worked) then there shouldn't have been any corpses to re-animate. Again, depending on how long the delay was between death and teleportation, this could have at least some use... but it's still very situational.

Very good point. I hadn't thought about that one. Yeah, any mask relating to death is kinda null when the RS is considered. It worked in Into The Darkness because that Tuyet was from a different universe, but since it takes up Rahi as well, Matoro shouldn't have been able to resurrect any. 

 

Just another example of bad planning. Greg only gave the RS its resurrection function in the serials because he wanted to do a zombie story. Don't think he realized that it would nullify the mask of one of the most important Toa.

[masterchirox580]

Well if you think about it the most useless mask would be anything a matoran wears. 

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Well if you think about it the most useless mask would be anything a matoran wears. 

 

actually, the MOST useless mask would be the broken mask of time prototypes Vakama was making. :n

[Toa Jaton]

Now the Rau, that's a useless mask.

 

How is translating stuff useless?Archeologists would like to have one.And why has no one yet mentioned the mask of flashlight(Ruru)?

[Regitnui]

 

 

Now the Rau, that's a useless mask.

How is translating stuff useless?Archeologists would like to have one.And why has no one yet mentioned the mask of flashlight(Ruru)?

Because seeing in the dark is pretty handy.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

While not useless on it's own, the fact that there are two almost identical masks, the Mask of Fate and the Mask of Possiblities. They both do the exact same thing but with different wording.

 

"Oh no no no my good man. This isn't blue! This, this is azure!!" Ermagherd, it's a fancier word for a shade of blue. Call the media...

 

 

 

I must admit, when talking about the Mask of Undeath I thought you guys were using a different name for the Mask of Reanimation. I now realize that the two are different things and I had no idea of the existence of a Mask of Undeath. I must agree, the powers seem pretty useless.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Iaredios Paerkenon

[bonesiii]

Lol, this just never dies.

 

Problem #1--The built-up life force would obviously run out at some point

Of course it would -- that's part of the intentional downside, and a natural effect of how we said it would charge up. But it could be countered by spending more time charging it.

 

so if the user's last objective was to travel from Metru Nui to the southern islands, the life-force would deplete long before they ever got there.

I never saw it as draining that fast, but while weird exceptions like that might happen (say, if you were stranded on the other side of Aqua Magna and had some mission on Mata Nui; your dead body would have no choice but to swim that distance and fail on the way), they would be even rarer than use of this mask would be.

 

Plus, since their reactions are slowed due to a lack of true life, so sailing through a storm is just gonna end in them sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

That could happen, yeah. On the other hand, they don't need to breathe anymore, so the old Pirates of the Carribbean 'who needs boats?' (yeah I know, that wasn't the quote...) thing could come into play.

 

The only way I see this mask being of use is if the last objective in the user's mind involved the island they were on when they died, or could be accomplished in a few hours.

Well that would obviously be the most likely situation for it. The idea was mainly that they could help their clan win a battle they died during, so their death alone wouldn't mean the loss of the battle.

 

Problem #2--How did they die? Were they decapitated?

That would presumably make it fail.

 

Was their head crushed?

So would that.

 

Were their limbs cut off like Anakin Skywalker's? If the mask is on the head, then decapitation makes it useless. If the brain is destroyed, then the mask is gonna have a hard time controlling what limbs might still be attached. The only way this mask really works is if the user died of old age, had the life drained from them, or they were stabbed through the chest. Too specific for any reasonable use.

Whoooooa there. There's WAY more ways to die than those... But the ole stab was what I mainly had in mind, if a bit gruesome for Bionicle canon (but it could happen). There's also poison, suffocation, drowning, burned enough to kill but not obliterate, etc. (many of these are things you might likely die from in a world with elemental powers).

 

Problem #3--A mask that takes a dead body and reanimates it, allowing it to continue its task... Hey, wait a minute! Isn't that exactly what the RS was intended to do?

No, the RS fixes or replaces the body, and we didn't know about that back then anyways. It could also work for Makuta, who the RS doesn't help, and work outside the MU, etc. Also, the RS clearly has a time delay between death and teleporting up, of unknown length, during which this mask can do its job.

(That does give a strong case against anybody wasting too much time charging this up, though, in the canon universe. None of that would apply to the EM, namely Warzone where it was primarily intended for.)

 

If the RS just takes up the dead bodies so the Kestora can fix them and make them work again, so they can be sent back to the MU to continue living anyway. Before the sendback teleporter broke, why would anyone have needed this mask, for any reason?

We don't have any evidence that the time delay is a result of breakdown, although it's certainly possible. If not, then it was intended for that time and/or for exceptions like Makuta (and since Toa consider it immoral anyways, they're prime candidates for who would want this). If not, it was invented later -- simple!

 

 

Anyways, the mask certainly has much less use than the kinds you would use while alive anytime you needed -- but that doesn't mean it couldn't exist or wouldn't be worth having available, and as you would have quiet times during which you could switch to it to charge it up, it balances out. Remember, the idea of those masks wasn't entirely to make more of the "most useful masks ever" but to have better variety among the 'infinite' possible powers... and powers like this that could be extremely useful in the right circumstances and possibly save the day (or make it a lot worse for good guys since it's immoral ). It's a false premise that every mask we hear about has to be the most averagely balanced in its usefulness etc.

 

-Rau: It may translate every known language in the MU, but take it outside the GSR and it loses all purpose.

Hm, I don't recall hearing that. Is that confirmed? I figured it worked telepathically or something, so while for written it would probably need to be a known language (known to who or what I dunno, but I can think of ways to make that work), for spoken (Great) while talking to an actual person, it seems very plausible (unless this is an absolute rule?).

And... out of time... More later probably.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

So, let me get this straight.

 

a fanon mask that already served an incredibly situational and niche role, in jsut one part of the EM, was accepted into canon... why, again? ?:

[The 1st Shadow]

So, let me get this straight.

 

a fanon mask that already served an incredibly situational and niche role, in jsut one part of the EM, was accepted into canon... why, again? ?:

A whole bunch of them were, apparently. A few of them I actually liked, like the mask of Biomechanics, which enabled the user to interface with technology on a mental level. Very useful for hacking systems or tracking down information quickly, provided one has access to such a system. But the Mask of Undeath... Eh.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

a fanon mask that already served an incredibly situational and niche role, in jsut one part of the EM, was accepted into canon... why, again? ?:

A whole bunch of them were, apparently. A few of them I actually liked, like the mask of Biomechanics, which enabled the user to interface with technology on a mental level. Very useful for hacking systems or tracking down information quickly, provided one has access to such a system. But the Mask of Undeath... Eh.

 

 

true, i personally loathe the biomechanics one with a fiery passion of a nova star, but at least it's useful in it's convolution, this, however, is just... honestly. you'd be better off, i dunno, bringing a mask power that would prevent you dying in the first place? like, shielding? or telekenesis? or maybe stealth or concealment?

 

what good is a mask that has one weak power that's only triggered when you're average-level usefulness is done, and then proceeds to function on half that level? what's to stop your enemy from jsut mowing you down again now that you're a grey shambler? and wouldn't people just always aim for the heads of undeath-users to ensure it never works at all? ?:

[fishers64]

So, let me get this straight.

 

a fanon mask that already served an incredibly situational and niche role, in jsut one part of the EM, was accepted into canon... why, again? ?:

Because bonesiii wanted it to be, and Greg didn't argue with him. 

 

I'm pretty sure the former had some reason. I think part of it was to place a power on an unknown Matoran mask so fans would know what it was, and to make its appearance in the EM more plausible through Olmak-effect copying of the canon dimension or something like that.

 

Except internally in the EM I didn't really get a satisfying explanation of what the Olmak effect actually did - it was some sort of mysterious overly complex bonesiii thing that never fully got Arena Methoded to a reveal. So the proper answer is probably still "it's a mystery" and "I don't know."

 

Fun stuff.  

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

No mask is truly useless 100% of the time...someone mentioned Matoran masks. They're actually pretty useful to Matoran, seeing as they keep the Matoran conscious.

 

Now, I'm not sure why someone would use the Mask of Undeath. Toa consider it an immoral mask, so would never use it in the first place. Makuta almost always die as a result of their antidermis dissipating or being destroyed, and once they're out of their armor, they can't use masks anyway. And it has no immediate use in combat or day-to-day life

 

Some of the "identical" masks aren't actually so. The Volitak silences your movement, but doesn't make you completely invisible, whereas the Huna makes you completely invisible, but doesn't silence your movement. In other words, use a Volitak when it's dark and quiet and use a Huna when it's bright and loud, I guess.

 

There DOES seem to be an exception, however. In LoMN, Whenua uses his Ruru to see through the floor of the Coliseum. If you can look through solid matter AND see in the dark with one mask, that sort of trumps the Akaku. I don't think it should, though, so I always assumed that the floor was made of some semi-translucent material that you could see through with enough light.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

There DOES seem to be an exception, however. In LoMN, Whenua uses his Ruru to see through the floor of the Coliseum. If you can look through solid matter AND see in the dark with one mask, that sort of trumps the Akaku. I don't think it should, though, so I always assumed that the floor was made of some semi-translucent material that you could see through with enough light.

 

iirc, the ruru has limited X-ray vision, in that in can, like, see through tunnel walls, but not solid earth? somthing like that, it was 'cause it was assumed to be a tunnel-dweller's mask first and foremost or something,

 

kanohi are weird. :0

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

There DOES seem to be an exception, however. In LoMN, Whenua uses his Ruru to see through the floor of the Coliseum. If you can look through solid matter AND see in the dark with one mask, that sort of trumps the Akaku. I don't think it should, though, so I always assumed that the floor was made of some semi-translucent material that you could see through with enough light.

 

iirc, the ruru has limited X-ray vision, in that in can, like, see through tunnel walls, but not solid earth? somthing like that, it was 'cause it was assumed to be a tunnel-dweller's mask first and foremost or something,

 

kanohi are weird. :0

 

That they are, that they are. But it's all done to please Lego's The Great Beings' need for power balance in their creation, which I am fine with as it erases the god mode stuff that pops in role playing all too often.

[bonesiii]

Three notes I had no time before to elaborate on from previous post (re: Undeath):

 

1) About the head -- it was never established if the brain had to be completely or even technically a little intact; if somebody died like Inman on Lost (blow to the back of the head), as long as the mask stayed on, would the body still be able to be animated?

 

That is, does the mask puppet the muscles, or does it send signals into the brain that then control the muscles?

 

(Or does it not even need muscles?)

 

This wasn't established.

 

 

2) Obviously the Makuta example has its serious limitations, and if the mask does need muscles or intact brain (or in their case intact gaseous antidermis doing whatever it does to make the armor move), a dead Makuta will not work. Plus they tend to "leak out" long before they die, so the chances of animating the armor would seem slim. Prior to their becoming gaseous, though, it would work great for them.

 

 

3) I realized later the invention timing argument may not work, because its shape was chosen from a Matoran version in Karzahni, and Matoran stopped going there early in history, so if the RS's time delay started after that, that wouldn't make sense.

 

 

Continuing with replies:

 

 

Zatth: A mask that can summon rahi, but not allow you to control or pick which animal to summon. That already makes the mask useless, but it gets even worse when you can't even send away an animal summoned by accident. This mask is an inferior version of the mask of Rahi Contril.

The problem with this argument is that the Mask of Life gave the Toa Mahri their masks. That works two ways -- either it was meant mainly as a challenge to deal with largely useless masks as a test, or the Mask saw something about that situation where it felt those powers were warranted (such as specifically what types of sea monsters would be likely to be called).

 

It could be a bit of both, but given the others' powers -- even Matoro -- it seems more like the latter.

 

But it's definitely a gamble mask. (At least on its own. Summoning plus Rahi Control could be very useful if you have a Suva or other mask storage, as Rahi Control presumably can't summon from afar.)

 

 

 

Huna & Volitak: Two masks with the power to turn their user invisible and with the Volitak, the user can silence their own sounds. Unfortunately, the shadow that is cast with both masks reduces their usefulness so they can't be used anywhere in daylight or near a source of light.

 

At this point it looks more like you're just listing masks with downsides, which is every mask... surely nobody actually thinks these two having that downside renders them useless or nearly so?

 

 

 

Mask of Clairvoyance: Not being able to change the future with this mask, no matter what you do to prevent the event from occurring?That's a pretty big flaw with the mask, but what makes it even more useless is the fact that you can't pick what you wish to see or when to see visions. Add in the inability to free yourself from a mental illusion and you have a pretty useless mask.

 

That one is indeed confusing, but maybe it helps them prepare to deal with that event once it occurs? What's in the vision can't be changed, but maybe it can give info useful for stopping other bad things that weren't in the vision.

 

 

 

Or does the MoU stall that system?

 

As far as I know that wasn't established (if it increases the time delay). It might have been; I think there was some discussion of the idea, but I don't recall if Greg weighed in.

 

For my part, I would see it as not doing so, but I could also see a case being made for it. It has been theorized that the RS knows you're dead by a particular signalling device in your body ceasing to work. If this animates that as well as the body, it could indeed delay the teleportation (assuming that theory is right).

 

 

 

nay, essentially all of the "fan-canonized masks" hit the top of the list here

 

Whatever floats your boat. But if you mean that by virtue of being fanmade it's bad (your wording seems unclear to me), that would call the criticism into serious question. At least one was actually a canon power and many others were inspired by major Bionicle themes I didn't see the same critics complaining about before, like biomechanics, fusion, or rebounding. I strongly suspect if these same powers had been given to us the way things were done in 2001, many of the criticisms would not have happened (some would, though; it's not like canon powers are exempt from criticism lol!).

 

But as the canon didn't seem to care to establish them on their own, and nobody else seemed to be taking the initiative, and we also were trying to make a bunch of masks for the EM, it seemed best to "kill two birds with one stone" and act on the idea I'd had a while back to establish them. In hindsight, should have run a contest or something, yadda, but the idea hadn't been floated, so it didn't happen that way, and Greg didn't mind, so yeah.

 

Realistically, if we hadn't moved forward on it, they probably would still be unestablished shapes... which you might be okay with, but I saw it as a problem considering that in 2001 there was much more care poured into every shape having a power -- many quite odd and questionable; boundary-pushing, etc.

 

 

 

the Zaath probably existed (out-of-story) before the mask of rahi-control

 

Yes and no -- the power of Rahi Control came first as a Kraata power, but was turned into a mask later. (I'm not sure on the exact timing of its being turned into a mask, though.)

 

 

 

Elda yet. All it does is direct you to the Mask of Life.

 

Common misconception (it also lets you see ghosts basically... not sure why), but even with that, it was pretty odd. Although let's be fair -- the "extremely useful rare event" thing comes into play there, even if Hahli seemingly didn't actually win the day because of it. However, I always thought it should have been able to detect any object you really, really want to find (so that you'd put up with the headaches).

 

 

Tryna was. It re-animates corpses as long as the wearer is concentrating hard enough... sounds cool, but if the Red Star was functioning properly

 

This argument definitely doesn't work, since Rahi aren't revived, and the Mask of Life's picking it for Matoro was outside the MU, so the RS couldn't work there even on sapient beings. (Although that does make the mask less useful in the MU.)

 

 

 

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

 

 

a fanon mask that already served an incredibly situational and niche role, in jsut one part of the EM, was accepted into canon... why, again? ?

 

The inspiration was from that dead-eyed looking Matoran in Karzahni. The idea was that Karzahni gave him that mask to emphasize what life was like there. And with the "sunglasses" on that Matoran's case of it, looking like a standing dead person, the power was a natural fit to it.

 

 

 

 

honestly. you'd be better off, i dunno, bringing a mask power that would prevent you dying in the first place? like, shielding?

They aren't mutually exclusive. Undeath is only supposed to be worn occasionally when you're pretty sure you're safe. Hau or the like would be the normal mask for somebody who worried about dying. But if that failed, Undeath could mean the difference, if they had a mission they saw as more important than their life (or if they were just really spiteful due to being bad guys etc.).

 

 

 

what's to stop your enemy from jsut mowing you down again now that you're a grey shambler?

 

I never really saw it as making them a "shambler" per se -- maybe the Tryna would, and I doubt it would have them move in as clever ways than if their sapient brain was directing their actions, but I did definitely see it as calling on knowledge in their brain if it WAS intact.

 

(If not, then probably shambler would be a good description, but destruction of the brain is just as likely to destroy the mask or the face it would attach to anyways, so moot.)

 

In fact, since you no longer need to keep your body alive, as long as you avoid limbs being sliced off, the mask being knocked off, etc. it might actually make you a more ferocious fighter, or dangerous even if a bit slower perhaps, as your body wouldn't be as cautious as you were when alive, and if a "kill both or stalemate" situation came up, the enemy might die whereas previously not. (Or be defeated in general.)

 

 

 

Toa consider it an immoral mask, so would never use it in the first place.

 

Not really -- Matoro's mask is deemed immoral but when the Mask of Life gave it to him, he didn't demand to get a powerless spare from the Matoran or anything. If they had a vital mission, they might make an exception for that one. (Hence part of why I picked that power. It was meant to be more of a gray area mask than a clearly immoral one.)

Edited October 9, 2015 by bonesiii

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Tryna was. It re-animates corpses as long as the wearer is concentrating hard enough... sounds cool, but if the Red Star was functioning properly

 

This argument definitely doesn't work, since Rahi aren't revived, and the Mask of Life's picking it for Matoro was outside the MU, so the RS couldn't work there even on sapient beings. (Although that does make the mask less useful in the MU.)

 

Um, wrong. Rahi ARE revived by the RS, because they are a part of the MU system. This was established ages ago.

 

A quick bit of research through the answers in this topic from Erebus confirms that. (It's under Update 10/10, second one, I think)

[bonesiii]

Greg retconned that, T. This was established long ago in the official Greg topic.

[The 1st Shadow]

Greg retconned that, T. This was established long ago in the official Greg topic.

Might wanna put that in somewhere, because I couldn't find anything that confirms this.

[kathy]

Do beings of the MU even have brains? 

 

^{judging by the Piraka, no}

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

nay, essentially all of the "fan-canonized masks" hit the top of the list here

 

Whatever floats your boat. But if you mean that by virtue of being fanmade it's bad (your wording seems unclear to me), that would call the criticism into serious question. At least one was actually a canon power and many others were inspired by major Bionicle themes I didn't see the same critics complaining about before, like biomechanics, fusion, or rebounding. I strongly suspect if these same powers had been given to us the way things were done in 2001, many of the criticisms would not have happened (some would, though; it's not like canon powers are exempt from criticism lol!).

 

But as the canon didn't seem to care to establish them on their own, and nobody else seemed to be taking the initiative, and we also were trying to make a bunch of masks for the EM, it seemed best to "kill two birds with one stone" and act on the idea I'd had a while back to establish them. In hindsight, should have run a contest or something, yadda, but the idea hadn't been floated, so it didn't happen that way, and Greg didn't mind, so yeah.

 

Realistically, if we hadn't moved forward on it, they probably would still be unestablished shapes... which you might be okay with, but I saw it as a problem considering that in 2001 there was much more care poured into every shape having a power -- many quite odd and questionable; boundary-pushing, etc.

 

 

No, Bones, I know you like to call me wrong just for kicks here, but i really had a beef with the masks themselves, not that they were fanonized.

 

most of the EM or fanon masks were too specific or complicated, with more intricite instructions and uses than the base level masks, even the most unusual Canon masks having short or concise abilities and traits. "shields you when activated" or, to go the long haul, "enables user to mimic the abilities of targeted nearby rahi."  that's like, literally one of the most complicated. compare to "meshes with machine to get the deets on machine, control or repair machine" or whatnot. :t

 

 

the Zaath probably existed (out-of-story) before the mask of rahi-control

 

Yes and no -- the power of Rahi Control came first as a Kraata power, but was turned into a mask later. (I'm not sure on the exact timing of its being turned into a mask, though.)

 

Yes and no - the Zaath was introduced before the mask, i said mask specifically. i don't care what else could use rahi control, it was only redundant as a mask power because summoning already did that trick. :t

 

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

 

 

a fanon mask that already served an incredibly situational and niche role, in jsut one part of the EM, was accepted into canon... why, again? ?

 

The inspiration was from that dead-eyed looking Matoran in Karzahni. The idea was that Karzahni gave him that mask to emphasize what life was like there. And with the "sunglasses" on that Matoran's case of it, looking like a standing dead person, the power was a natural fit to it.

 

 

half of sayger's masks looked like dead faces, the other half looked like piraka faces, i see no standingreasoning here for the decision. :t

 

what's to stop your enemy from jsut mowing you down again now that you're a grey shambler?

 

I never really saw it as making them a "shambler" per se -- maybe the Tryna would, and I doubt it would have them move in as clever ways than if their sapient brain was directing their actions, but I did definitely see it as calling on knowledge in their brain if it WAS intact.

 

(If not, then probably shambler would be a good description, but destruction of the brain is just as likely to destroy the mask or the face it would attach to anyways, so moot.)

 

In fact, since you no longer need to keep your body alive, as long as you avoid limbs being sliced off, the mask being knocked off, etc. it might actually make you a more ferocious fighter, or dangerous even if a bit slower perhaps, as your body wouldn't be as cautious as you were when alive, and if a "kill both or stalemate" situation came up, the enemy might die whereas previously not. (Or be defeated in general.)

 

Okay, but, the mask description says you can complete "one more task" as a thrall, one. uno. that means complex fight scenes are probably out of the question, it clearly states you are being reanimated as your freaky mask's gross flesh puppet for one more heroic crusade into the temple of doom where you will, presumably, drop dead upon completion.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

half of sayger's masks looked like dead faces, the other half looked like piraka faces, i see no standingreasoning here for the decision. :t

 

Stuart Sayger didn't draw that mask. It appeared in the atlas BIONICLE World, which was illustrated by John McCormack, Toby Dutkiewicz, and Jeremy Brazeal.

 

Beside the point, though.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Do beings of the MU even have brains? 

 

^{judging by the Piraka, no}

Yes, though jsut like the rest of their body, it is biomechanical. Imagine, if you can, a horrific hybrid between a motherboard, and a human brain.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

half of sayger's masks looked like dead faces, the other half looked like piraka faces, i see no standingreasoning here for the decision. :t

 

Stuart Sayger didn't draw that mask. It appeared in the atlas BIONICLE World, which was illustrated by John McCormack, Toby Dutkiewicz, and Jeremy Brazeal.

 

Beside the point, though.

 

 

oh, huh. it looked like it was from a sayger-era bionicle comic, my mistake. :0 (he was the one to do the karzahni related matoran stuff so i honestl had no idea.)

[bonesiii]

Greg retconned that, T. This was established long ago in the official Greg topic.

Might wanna put that in somewhere, because I couldn't find anything that confirms this.

I'm pretty sure it's in the Official Red Star topic, and probably the BS01 page? *checks* Well, oddly it's not on BS01's RS page, or the Rahi page as far as I noticed. [Edit: And hm... I guess it doesn't seem to be in the RS topic. That thing needs to be restarted anyways; it's still in the format of a "discovering what we know" topic but now we know most of that so a factlist would work now.]

 

Do beings of the MU even have brains?

Yes, though jsut like the rest of their body, it is biomechanical.

Has that been recently confirmed or something? I seem to recall Greg might have weighed in finally, but for most of this time we have not known what the brains are, just that they have them. (And after all, how could they not lol?)

 

most of the EM or fanon masks were too specific or complicated, with more intricite instructions and uses than the base level masks, even the most unusual Canon masks having short or concise abilities and traits. "shields you when activated"

Actually many of the original and other LEGO-sourced masks had complications too, and Hau is one of them; that it only works if you see the attack coming. I guess you mean that it can be fairly simplified that way, and it can, but that wasn't how they described it. And they all had those "intricate" details as well; they just weren't put in the short summaries of the powers but were seen in story portrayals and clarified by Greg in later posts. My including those details for these was obviously necessary as they were the most obvious questions people would naturally have that for other masks Greg would be able to answer on his own, but not so for these.

 

or, to go the long haul, "enables user to mimic the abilities of targeted nearby rahi."  that's like, literally one of the most complicated.

*shrugs* There's mind control with its clarification about not doing things against their will which wasn't even part of the original wordings that were released, there's telekinesis with "increases in power with focus", there's Huna with shadow and being audible, or Volitak with shadow and not being completely invisible, and that's not even getting into masks like Fate or Spirit which got even more complicated (I would include Elda except I think it actually needed even more complexity to be more useful as mentioned earlier).

 

For the fan-made ones, we have:

-Adaptation -- a bit complex, but doesn't count as it's an exact copy of a previously canon power

-Aging -- simple

-Biomechanics -- a bit complex, but it had to be to logically work with being a mask power and calling on this major Bionicle theme

-Conjuring -- moderately simple -- the concept was super-simple (magic spells, and that's a well-known concept so yeah), but some people have oddly had trouble with getting really technical in their questions on this, but it's really just "temporarily makes powers you describe accurately" -- Greg also added a backlash thing, showing that he didn't see keeping things super-simple as a rule

-Fusion -- simple

-Healing -- moderately simple (not one of mine, but the power description does happen to be an exact match to one from my fanfics by the same English name)

-Incomprehension -- simple

-Rebounding -- simple

-Sensory Aptitude -- simple

-Undeath -- probably the most complex, but still simple (animates your dead body to seek your goals, for the same time you spent wearing it while alive)

 

So, I don't think you have a case. Some were more complex than the others, but made sense to be, and complexity varies with the other powers anyways (and wouldn't we expect variety?).

Edited October 10, 2015 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

most of the EM or fanon masks were too specific or complicated, with more intricite instructions and uses than the base level masks, even the most unusual Canon masks having short or concise abilities and traits. "shields you when activated"

Actually many of the original and other LEGO-sourced masks had complications too, and Hau is one of them; that it only works if you see the attack coming. I guess you mean that it can be fairly simplified that way, and it can, but that wasn't how they described it. And they all had those "intricate" details as well; they just weren't put in the short summaries of the powers but were seen in story portrayals and clarified by Greg in later posts. My including those details for these was obviously necessary as they were the most obvious questions people would naturally have that for other masks Greg would be able to answer on his own, but not so for these.

 

I said "when activated", the hau has only ever been shown to work when you activate it, it only working on attacks you can see or know about is a no-brainer because it's shielding power isn't automatic.

 

 

or, to go the long haul, "enables user to mimic the abilities of targeted nearby rahi."  that's like, literally one of the most complicated.

*shrugs* There's mind control with its clarification about not doing things against their will which wasn't even part of the original wordings that were released, there's telekinesis with "increases in power with focus", there's Huna with shadow and being audible, or Volitak with shadow and not being completely invisible, and that's not even getting into masks like Fate or Spirit which got even more complicated (I would include Elda except I think it actually needed even more complexity to be more useful as mentioned earlier).

 

So, I don't think you have a case. Some were more complex than the others, but made sense to be, and complexity varies with the other powers anyways (and wouldn't we expect variety?).

 

 

Fate: "allows user to perform maneuvers that are otherwise near-impossible as if they had extreme luck."

 

Spirit: "allows user to leave their body behind as a spiritual being, and return to it later to reverse the effect."

 

literally easy.

 

the mask of biomechanics and mask of conjuring are literally shortened as far as possible in their BS01 paragraphs, so i'll jsut leave that there,

 

and what i really meant is, by comparison, which is a more appropriate mask power level power? teleporting or calling forth shields or ind control- or, meshing with complex machines, programmign your face to shoot fire, and coming back as a half-useful death-dummy?

 

(also nitpick but: mask of fusaion wasn't listed as immoral, when it breaks consent by havign the wearer have all the control over the fused being for the duration of the fusion. whoever proposed that one obviously forgot why the spear of fusion was an evil device....)

 

but i digress, we're talking about the mask of undeath, and you still haven't told me why it can somehow gary-stu it's way out of double-dying just as easily as you sigle-died to have it activiate in the first-place? ?:

[bonesiii]

I said "when activated", the hau has only ever been shown to work when you activate it, it only working on attacks you can see or know about is a no-brainer because it's shielding power isn't automatic.

I covered this in my previous post...

 

Fate: "allows user to perform maneuvers that are otherwise near-impossible as if they had extreme luck."

 

Spirit: "allows user to leave their body behind as a spiritual being, and return to it later to reverse the effect."

 

literally easy.

Did you read my whole post? Those would be the optional summaries of those masks, but other details about them, especially about the rules for what the ghost is like, what happens if the body dies, etc. were asked about by fans. I don't even remember what was established for that last one, lol. For Hau, for example, whether it was a wall as MOL showed or deflection as MNOG was a question, etc.

 

the mask of biomechanics and mask of conjuring are literally shortened as far as possible in their BS01 paragraphs

 

Biomechanics is pretty close, which is why I call that one fairly complex, but it could still be condensed in the same way things like Hau were by not mentioning details like what the wall for the shield is like. The BS01 version is:

 

The Mask of Biomechanics is a Kanohi that allows its user to mentally interface with machinery and control or influence them, depending on range and complexity of the technology. It also gives the user a minor enhancement of their mechanical strength. The user cannot control the mechanical parts of other beings without their consent, but can slow them down.

The only essential parts are that they control machinery mentally, and can somewhat affect the mechanical parts of biomechanical beings. The rest are included so Greg wouldn't have to run into the problem I mentioned when questions would inevitably come up as they did for other masks.

 

Conjuring:

 

The Mask of Conjuring is a Kanohi that allows its user to program a limited power into the mask for a brief period of time. The user must describe in detail the power desired and at least one weakness. If the phrasing is spoken wrong, it causes intense psychic backlash in the user's mind. The user can use a programmed power for fifteen minutes (with a Great version), and after the time is out, the user must wait thirty seconds to activate the mask again. The Noble version will only work for five minutes.

Another weakness is because it takes time, any enemies nearby can hear in detail what power to expect and what its weakness is. Because of this, the usage of the mask is more commonly done alone.

This one is a good comparison to Adaptation, which needed some examples to give people a sense of it, except these examples aren't really as needed as with Adaptation per se. Adaptation can be summed up as "makes you adapt to your surroundings physically", and Conjuring can be "magic spells (that mess up your mind if mispoken)".

 

and what i really meant is, by comparison, which is a more appropriate mask power level power? teleporting or calling forth shields or ind control- or, meshing with complex machines, programmign your face to shoot fire, and coming back as a half-useful death-dummy?

Honestly, I don't see it. When I invented them I realized they were right in line with the sorts of things Bionicle had used in other mask powers already -- if they weren't, I wouldn't have proposed them! And again, that's also part of why I used so many that had already been major themes in Bionicle, or powers that had been featured, like Aging, but not as masks. Are they different, though? Of course -- they couldn't be the same powers, obviously, so there had to be some differences!

 

It still seems more likely you're unwittingly applying different standards to them because you know they're fanmade. You say you had a problem with them, and I believe you, but you're clearly using different arguments for them versus what you are using for canon. For canon you're simply opting for the summaries (that are just as valid for these), and ignoring the details that were established elsewhere, and here you're just doing the opposite. It doesn't work.

 

also nitpick but: mask of fusaion wasn't listed as immoral, when it breaks consent

That's fair. At the time, I don't think the Mind Control clarification had been established yet, so what was and was not "deemed immoral by Toa" was seemingly subjective, especially with Repulsion being immoral yet Levitation not being. Knowing that about Komau in hindsight, I would agree this either should be immoral or shouldn't be allowed to do that.

 

forgot why the spear of fusion was an evil device

I don't recall the timing on that one, but the inspiration was Kaita mainly, whether I had that in mind too or not.

 

Note: The Mask of Fusion does actually enable strong minds to resist the fusion, so it kind of had that... Still, Mind Control apparently allows total resistance, so yeah.

 

but i digress, we're talking about the mask of undeath, and you still haven't told me why it can somehow gary-stu it's way out of double-dying just as easily as you sigle-died to have it activiate in the first-place? ?:

Which is it? The mask is either close to useless, or not -- it can't be both that AND Gary Stu at the same time. (Or balanced.) And I'm not sure what you're asking if it isn't answered by what I said before about the user probably becoming even more dangerous as there's no need anymore to avoid wounds that would normally kill but not maim or break/knock off the mask.

 

Another Pirates analogy works here -- Captain Barbossa with a sword sticking out of him isn't killed.

 

If you were killed by drowning, can't drown twice. Poison becomes useless, etc.

Edited October 10, 2015 by bonesiii