Evolution and Matoran

[Kaburimasu 米]

This is a weird question , but its been going on in my head for a while now ;

 

Do you think evolution could be realistic for Matoran ?

 

The reason I say this is because , in my alternate universe , I want Matoran to be of all heights , shapes and widths . Look , I looooooooooove Matoran , but to me , they will always be adorable little cutesy-wootsies (especially when they get all snuggy wuggy in their wittle spheres to get their memories erased) . That being said , I don't think short , tiny dudes can survive in the world that I've dreamt of . It's a little harsh .

 

I read about Bohrok in the past , and it was said that they were once biomechanical , but now they're fully mechanical . So I was wondering if it would make sense if Matoran could also evolve (much after the final battle) into a greater form , but just become taller and more suitable for life after 50,000 - 100,000 years or so , similar to how some primates eventually turned into homosapians . That's not the main reason why evolution will occur in my story , but wouldn't that be cool ? Or is that just completely preposterous ?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Kasaius Khan

[Aanchir]

You wouldn't necessarily need Matoran to evolve biologically in order to introduce a range of different physiques. After all, it was established in 2003 that Matoran can rebuild themselves, and I imagine every thousand or so years, it might even be necessary for the sake of maintenance. So as long as you're creating a story set in the future, it's totally plausible for Matoran to look totally different than typical Matoran looked when the story left off.

 

As for the question of whether they could evolve, hard to say. The organic parts of their bodies could perhaps change, but for as many thousands of years as they've been around, if they were prone to random, spontaneous body changes I expect we'd have seen them by now. Matoran aren't like most real-life organisms that grow gradually throughout their entire lifespan or have a specific adolescent period when they transition from "childhood" to "adulthood". So I imagine any biological changes Matoran undergo would be more like the changes adult humans undergo once all of their "growth spurts" are done with: gaining or losing weight, gaining or losing muscle mass, etc.

 

Matoran don't reproduce (at least, not in the canon story), so generational evolution and adaptations like we see in real-life organisms wouldn't necessarily come into play.

[Xboxtravis]

Normal beings don't change their DNA during their lifetime unless a mutation has occurred. So I imagine that biologically speaking, a Matoran would be identical biologically to when it a was first built.

 

But as established in Bionicle lore, Matoran can be "rebuilt." I believe there are a few key instances of this happening to either minor or major degrees:

• Metru Nui Style Matoran devolved to Tohunga Style after being exposed to a Matoran Sphere
• Tohunga Style being rebuilt into the later Mata-Nui island style of Matoran
• Broken Matoran being rebuilt by Karazhani
• Takua, being recolored and disguised to hide his identity as an Av-Matoran 
• Mahri-Nui Matoran being strengthened by pit-mutagen.
• Anytime a Matoran becomes a Toa

Also of note is the Dark Hunter Gatherer (http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Gatherer) who once was a Matoran but gradually built himself up to the size of a titan over time. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Xboxtravis

[Alyska]

Av-Matoran grow taller than normal while living in Karda Nui. Presumably they shrank back down after moving to Metru Nui. Also, some Matoran were mutated into water breathers in Mahri Nui- there could have been some secondary changes happening with prolonged exposure.

 

There are also canon variations in physique that aren't necessarily reflected by the sets. Po-Matoran and Onu-Matoran are meant to be among the strongest Matoran, so they're probably a bit bulkier than, say, a Ga- or Le-Matoran.

 

I like to imagine other little differences as well, such as Le-Matoran being quite tall and lithe, with a lot of dexterity in the hands and feet. Ga-Matoran could have a slightly elongated torso with short, sturdy legs, maybe slightly webbed feet (like lil' biomechanical otters). Ko-Matoran could have big feet, like built-in snow shoes. Onu-Matoran might have large eyes for dealing with low light (or you could go the other way and make them have tiny eyes, like moles).

 

On the topic of evolution- I think it's something that could happen to a large population, but not "naturally"- it would need to be triggered by something powerful, like the Ignika, or exposure to Energised Protodermis (would we get Matoran Nuva, I wonder?). Though, there have been things like the Makuta all spontaneously "evolving" into antidermis, or Av-Matoran "evolving" to Bohrok, which are things that happened just because they were destined to happen.  I was entertaining the thought the other day that Mata Nui/Ignika might choose to devolve the Bohrok back into Matoran since they had no purpose on Spherus Magna, but that would open up a whole other can of worms in retroactively making Nuparu a mass murderer. Best not to think about that.

[Petewa]

Well, they start out the same, but then, as they go along, they feel the need for a stronger, more individualistic form, and get rebuilt into one, when they feel it's outdated, they go to the factories for another upgrade, so on, so forth.

[Kaburimasu 米]

Thank you all for those brief lessons . This Cashew has learned a lot today

[Xboxtravis]

  I was entertaining the thought the other day that Mata Nui/Ignika might choose to devolve the Bohrok back into Matoran since they had no purpose on Spherus Magna, but that would open up a whole other can of worms in retroactively making Nuparu a mass murderer. Best not to think about that.

 

Yeah, reverse evolution of the Bohrok would cause a lot of problems for the Matoran society... But what are those Bohrok doing anyway these days, just sitting around in half destroyed nests in the GSR waiting to clear the surface of an island that will never again exist? 

 

But then again I could see Mata Nui doing that, he seems like the type of dude who would retreat into thousands of years of meditation inside the Inika, only to come out secretly from time to time to play pranks on the Matoran and Agori... He has to be getting bored of sitting in that mask eventually!

[Sumiki]

It really wouldn't be evolution in human, scientific terms, as that has to do with how the genetics of large populations of purely organic creatures change over time. Being biomechanical, Matoran really wouldn't have much to evolve in that sense; events that might otherwise be evolutionary were large-scale immediate events with a reason behind it, regardless of whether or not the reason was ever explained (think Makuta turning into shells for Antidermis).
 
I would argue that there is some form of evolution/devolution in the MU, but it's more along the lines of a change in an operating system's code.

[Alyska]

 

  I was entertaining the thought the other day that Mata Nui/Ignika might choose to devolve the Bohrok back into Matoran since they had no purpose on Spherus Magna, but that would open up a whole other can of worms in retroactively making Nuparu a mass murderer. Best not to think about that.

 

Yeah, reverse evolution of the Bohrok would cause a lot of problems for the Matoran society... But what are those Bohrok doing anyway these days, just sitting around in half destroyed nests in the GSR waiting to clear the surface of an island that will never again exist? 

 

But then again I could see Mata Nui doing that, he seems like the type of dude who would retreat into thousands of years of meditation inside the Inika, only to come out secretly from time to time to play pranks on the Matoran and Agori... He has to be getting bored of sitting in that mask eventually!

 

I like to think he watches over Spherus Magna society, and very occasionally bestows a "gift" or grants a wish- sometimes with a slight twist, depending on how noble the wisher's intentions were... lots of fun fanfic fuel there. 

[Kopekemaster]

I don't think evolution in the technical sense would necessarily happen, it would be better compared to, say, a human body changing things about itself as it grows. Since, after all, the Matoran and everyone else are just parts of Mata Nui's body, that kind of fits.

They need to rebuild themselves at times, or even sometimes upgrade themselves (perhaps not intentionally, for example, the Toa Metru). It's not as much a case of evolution as it is just growing up.

 

Just my thought on it, anyway.

[Wazdakka]

Matoran don't reproduce into new generations. Therefore, they cannot evolve. 

[MrSciFiGuy]

I don't think they can "evolve" Biologically like the Makuta, but they definitely can be rebuilt and upgraded.

[Kaburimasu 米]

I also forgot to mention this :

 

I wanted "evolution" or something to occur to offer some type of reproductive system . It's Important for two reasons : a vast majority of the population will be wiped out and parenting .

 

As far as parenting , It wont be too important , but some characters will have parents . For example , I'm gonna introduce this female character named Rekazi . She has a father that was abducted and stuff , but his existence is really important towards her story . I might just have this "father" be a guardian if he can not be biological .

 

But in general , I'd rather have characters be born than to be created by something , especially for the fact that Spherus Magna will need to be repopulated. I think it would be cool if matoran and rahi were to age (but still live an incredibly long life) , maybe die from natural causes (diseases exist , I know) , and can create new life at thier own will .

 

Sorry , Greg .

Edited January 26, 2016 by Kasaius Khan

[Aanchir]

I also forgot to mention this :

 

I wanted "evolution" or something to occur to offer some type of reproductive system . It's Important for two reasons : a vast majority of the population will be wiped out and parenting .

 

As far as parenting , It wont be too important , but some characters will have parents . For example , I'm gonna introduce this female character named Rekazi . She has a father that was abducted and stuff , but his existence is really important towards her story . I might just have this "father" be a guardian if he can not be biological .

 

But in general , I'd rather have characters be born than to be created by something , especially for the fact that Spherus Magna will need to be repopulated. I think it would cool if matoran and rahi were to age (but still live an incredibly long life) , maybe die from natural causes (diseases exist , I know) , and can create new life at thier own will .

 

Sorry , Greg .

Fair enough. Perhaps Mata Nui (inside the Mask of Life) could offer some kind of help. We know the Mask of Life can transform organisms and change their biological functions. Living on Spherus Magna with the Agori, Matoran would soon learn what "children" are, and I could see how a coalition of Matoran who wish to have children could appeal to Mata Nui hoping he might intervene on their behalf. With Mata Nui's blessing they could be granted the ability to procreate. Fast forward a few thousand years and you could have a population of Matoran that were all "born" rather than made.

 

But of course, adoptive parents are also always an option.

 

I definitely like the sound of your story so far. I consider the lack of families in the Bionicle canon one of its faults. Not all characters need families to be interesting and well-developed, but when NO characters have families you miss out on a whole lot of storytelling opportunities — sibling rivalries, the challenges of parenthood, familial loyalties, etc.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

I definitely like the sound of your story so far. I consider the lack of families in the Bionicle canon one of its faults. Not all characters need families to be interesting and well-developed, but when NO characters have families you miss out on a whole lot of storytelling opportunities — sibling rivalries, the challenges of parenthood, familial loyalties, etc.

 

 

not to mention, "Robots don't grow up" is probably one of the most boring things Bionicle's ever included. u:

[Xboxtravis]

Yeah, eventually the Matoran will have to do something, or else their race will automatically go extinct a million years after arriving on Spherus Magna, when all their parts wear out and they shut down for good. That million years is plenty of time to plead to Mata Nui for the gift of being able to have children, or to recover the Red Star from orbit and place it on Spherus Magna to both a) build new Matoran, and b) revive the dead ones. 

 

(p.s. one of the few better story elements in G2 was seeing that there were families and kids straight of the bat from the animations, it was very refreshing)

Edited December 3, 2015 by Xboxtravis

[Kaburimasu 米]

Fair enough. Perhaps Mata Nui (inside the Mask of Life) could offer some kind of help. We know the Mask of Life can transform organisms and change their biological functions. Living on Spherus Magna with the Agori, Matoran would soon learn what "children" are, and I could see how a coalition of Matoran who wish to have children could appeal to Mata Nui hoping he might intervene on their behalf. With Mata Nui's blessing they could be granted the ability to procreate. Fast forward a few thousand years and you could have a population of Matoran that were all "born" rather than made.

But of course, adoptive parents are also always an option.

 

I definitely like the sound of your story so far. I consider the lack of families in the Bionicle canon one of its faults. Not all characters need families to be interesting and well-developed, but when NO characters have families you miss out on a whole lot of storytelling opportunities — sibling rivalries, the challenges of parenthood, familial loyalties, etc.

 

 

 

Yeah, eventually the Matoran will have to do something, or else their race will automatically go extinct a million years after arriving on Spherus Magna, when all their parts wear out and they shut down for good. That million years is plenty of time to plead to Mata Nui for the gift of being able to have children, or to recover the Red Star from orbit and place it on Spherus Magna to both a) build new Matoran, and b) revive the dead ones. 

 

(p.s. one of the few better story elements in G2 was seeing that there were families and kids straight of the bat from the animations, it was very refreshing)

 

 

not to mention, "Robots don't grow up" is probably one of the most boring things Bionicle's ever included. u:

 

Glad to see that there are peeps that agree with me and understand what I'm going for . also , thank you

Edited December 5, 2015 by Kasaius Khan

[Alyska]

Aanchir- yeah, I thought that was a huge wasted opportunity with the Bara Magna setting. 

 

What if Ackar and Malum were brothers?

What if Vastus was Gresh's father or uncle?

What if Gresh lost his mother in the Shattering, only to find she'd survived on Bota Magna?

What if Gelu was trying to support his aging parents?

What if the storyline featured kids? No, Gresh doesn't count.

 

I do like the fact that kids exist in G2, and we've actually seen them in the story. (I personally headcanon that Korgot has three tiny daughters who think Onua is the best thing ever- sometimes she walks in on Onua curled up asleep with the girls perched quietly on his back.)

 

I suppose we had some sort-of familial relationships between Toa, Turaga and Matoran- Kopaka and Tahu certainly had "sibling rivalry" covered, but then, it's never going to be exactly the same (Matau, stop hitting on your sister!). Jaller and Tahu seemed to have an almost father-son relationship in the beginning- Tahu's attitude towards Jaller being basically a bratty teenage "Go away small dad, you can't tell me what to do!" 

 

I can imagine some Matoran seeing the appeal of having a family, though they'd probably find the organic processes involved a bit icky. Opinions probably vary between "That seems like a horribly inefficient and unnecessarily painful way to make a person" to "Oh, but look at the tiny hands!". If we run with the "Mata Nui gives gifts" headcanon, I can definitely see that as the sort of thing he might do for Matoran.

 

Maybe rather than a biological conception and birth, two prospective parents could perform a process of power/consciousness-sharing (similar to Gali and Takua's mind-link, or what happens during a Kaita fusion), but instead of fusing the two bodies together, part of their shared energies combine to create a third being with combined traits of the other two. Perhaps the body structure of the child would be created beforehand, and the parents would channel their energies into it to give it life. From there, you could get children of hybrid elements- maybe even hybrid species. Lots of possiblilities.

[Xboxtravis]

...

 

I do like the fact that kids exist in G2, and we've actually seen them in the story. (I personally headcanon that Korgot has three tiny daughters who think Onua is the best thing ever- sometimes she walks in on Onua curled up asleep with the girls perched quietly on his back.)

 

...

 

Maybe rather than a biological conception and birth, two prospective parents could perform a process of power/consciousness-sharing (similar to Gali and Takua's mind-link, or what happens during a Kaita fusion), but instead of fusing the two bodies together, part of their shared energies combine to create a third being with combined traits of the other two. Perhaps the body structure of the child would be created beforehand, and the parents would channel their energies into it to give it life. From there, you could get children of hybrid elements- maybe even hybrid species. Lots of possiblilities.

 

First, that is one of the most adorable head cannons I have heard yet. I really hope the G2 story team gets the guts to flesh out the story pretty soon. I imagine all the Protectors alone would have interesting stories. What does Narmoto's wife think when he has to leave the village behind and wander in the mountains with Tahu? How did the Protectors react to the moment when their fathers passed away, and they had to inherit the title from them? So many oportunities.

 

Second, for G1 what you said makes sense as a way Matoran could reproduce in a very Matoran platonic manner. Just build an empty Matoran shell, and then form some kid to inhabit it that is made out of a fusion/kaita type deal. 

[Alyska]

Could be platonic or romantic- either way, merging your consciousness and soul with that of another being could probably be considered a very intimate act, even more so if a part of you will be bonded together forever. There's little description in the canon of what being merged (physically or mentally) is actually like, but it's usually hinted that it requires a great deal of trust, and can potentially leave the participants quite vulnerable to attack. Forced fusions are often portrayed as horrific monstrosities, and mental intrusions can do a lot of psychological damage. So to do that willingly with someone, even if it's platonic, says a great deal about strength of the relationship.

 

As for G2 headcanons, it'd be cool if they could reuse some of the old character names for the extended cast to flesh out families, villagers etc. I think I mentioned elsewhere I like to think Kivoda has a teenage son named Macku who sneaks off to visit his girlfriend Hewkii against his father's wishes. One of the strengths of early G1 is that the storytelling really did take time to build up whole villages, so seeing some of those characters reimagined with family ties to each other would be a great way to add some depth to the new setting.

[Xboxtravis]

^Thats why I'm Bricklinking parts for G2 style Takua, Jaller, and Hahli right now. G2 stylize everyone!

[Regitnui]

There was a series (Twisted Metal & Blood and Iron) by Tony Ballantyne that had reproducing robots. Essentially; the child's body is built beforehand, and the mother goes around thinking of what she'd like to incorporate into the child's mind. The father robot is capable of producing the 'brain wire', but the mother is the one who knows how to twist and sculpt it into a living brain. The brain is put into the child-bot body, and the child is essentially 'born' at the level of a 5-year-old. The child then completes their mental development by sleeping and dreaming, while growing up by having parts added. By the time the robot is an adult, it's stopped dreaming and is equivalent to a human adult in sapience and size.

[Alyska]

Going back to the original post, I actually think they incorporated some variation into Matoran body shapes in the original movies, though it's quite subtle. Jaller's quite wide and sturdy (which is actually consistent with how he's described in the early books), while Takua's a bit more slender and lighter. And Hahli's even smaller- she looks tiny next to Jaller. The walking animations reflect a difference too- Jaller moves with weight and purpose, like he means business, while Takua sort of happily bounces along, which suits their personalities so well. But I'd love to see that variation taken further. 

[Xboxtravis]

Going back to the original post, I actually think they incorporated some variation into Matoran body shapes in the original movies, though it's quite subtle. Jaller's quite wide and sturdy (which is actually consistent with how he's described in the early books), while Takua's a bit more slender and lighter. And Hahli's even smaller- she looks tiny next to Jaller. The walking animations reflect a difference too- Jaller moves with weight and purpose, like he means business, while Takua sort of happily bounces along, which suits their personalities so well. But I'd love to see that variation taken further.

Hewkii had a unique form too, while the six Toa Metru's Matoran form was also another model.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I also forgot to mention this :

 

I wanted "evolution" or something to occur to offer some type of reproductive system . It's Important for two reasons : a vast majority of the population will be wiped out and parenting .

 

As far as parenting , It wont be too important , but some characters will have parents . For example , I'm gonna introduce this female character named Rekazi . She has a father that was abducted and stuff , but his existence is really important towards her story . I might just have this "father" be a guardian if he can not be biological .

 

But in general , I'd rather have characters be born than to be created by something , especially for the fact that Spherus Magna will need to be repopulated. I think it would cool if matoran and rahi were to age (but still live an incredibly long life) , maybe die from natural causes (diseases exist , I know) , and can create new life at thier own will .

 

Sorry , Greg .

And it is because of this reason that on A Rude Awakening (project) and Terra Magna (RPG) I proposed that matoran and other races would begin the replication of MU factory-like machines that Mata Nui used to create MU beings, only built on Spherus Magna in few numbers. The machines have always and will continue to scan the population numbers in accordance to variable such as environment size, food, population levels, and other things of the like, and automatically create beings so long as it has a constant supply of necessary resources. In the two aforementioned worlds and their lore, I also proposed that the MU natives would form a military order (like the Hospitallers) in order to defend these factory-machines from various threats in order to ensure their survival and freedom (like, Skrall try to destroy said factory-machines for military reasons, or someone tries to take complete control of one of these so that they control the distribution of a population and blackmail nations).

 

In those two I also expanded on it a little more, by having the factory-machines  either built into pre-existing mountains or hills/mounds, or new ones would be raised with elemental powers; said areas of creation would be called Kini-Nui's (styled in different ways but usually with a likeliness to the Kini-Nui of Mata-Nui), and the military order is call themselves the Kini-Nui Canons (named after the Canons of the Temple from the Levantine Catholic Crusades). The Kini-Nui Canons would work closely with the Order of Mata-Nui, or maybe even be a branch of the secretive order. They would organize immigrant hospitals (again, like the Levantine Catholic Crusades) in order to protect the 'new borns' as they are delivered to their homes, either on foot, by vehicle, or by newly-constructed protodermic chutes. The vastness of Spherus Magna in comparison to the Matoran Universe will ensure that the Canons are going to be busy of the next couple of centuries, and mercantile caravans (with Canons guarding them) would be established to deliver the necessary resources. I imagine that they Kini-Nuis would become key points of strategy in military campaigns.

 

Anyway, Isn't the lack of natural reproduction something unique for the MU natives when compared to the normality of the SM natives? Why blur the lines? Pick one will ye! ( )

[TwentySecond]

I don't think they can evolve, considering that every change that I know of was due to an external power.

[Zestanor]

The Matoran don't reproduce... No, they don't evolve.

Now, the Bara Magnans? The official origin explanation is "don't talk about it," though I think it would be fitting for this world to have a mythological origin. They don't seem keen on reproducing... But they can. They also don't seem too keen on dying, what with 100,000 years old being "young."