Prototype Vahi

[OrangeFikou]

The Vahi from new graphic novel

totally looks like Vahi prototype from G1

Is that a coincidence?

Edited December 30, 2015 by OrangeFikou

[Naota Takizawa]

It's just there to be a place holder for the proper mask of time for G2, the G1 Vahi will not appear in the story.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Haha, they just copied and pasted it. Reminds me of the 8th Papercutz book where a stock image of Raanu is inexplicably driving a caravan filled with logs for the Skrall.

[RahiSpeak]

For some reason, I cannot for the life of me seem to find the reference (which is driving me crazy since I just saw it), but that is in fact what the Mask of Time looks like -- the lower half of it that is. Eventually, there will be a top half.

 

EDIT:

Derp. Switch lower half and upper half.

Edited December 31, 2015 by RahiSpeak

[Lyichir]

For some reason, I cannot for the life of me seem to find the reference (which is driving me crazy since I just saw it), but that is in fact what the Mask of Time looks like -- the lower half of it that is. Eventually, there will be a top half.

We don't have a reference for the lower half in G2, simply because neither half has appeared canonically. This image of the Mask of Time is the only time we've seen it visually, and even it is decidedly incorrect—not just because it's just reused G1 concept art and not an actual new mask design, but also because the same book makes clear that the upper half is the half the Protectors have and used to summon the Toa.

[Votuko]

Why can't the G1 Vahi (or a mask with the same design as it) be the "upper half" of the MoT?

Surely that is precisely what the graphic novel is saying?

 

They have no issue leaving the Lower MoT's appearance a mystery for now. So the idea that the Vahi is only used as a "placeholder image" for the Upper MoT doesn't really make sense when they could have just not shown the mask at all (eg. hide it in light, or energy like the MoUP, or just not show that camera angle like in the animations etc.).

 

Maybe some anti-connection people don't like the fact that the Vahi is part of G2?

 

P.S. I'm calling it that the MoUP is the Lower MoT.

[Lyichir]

Why can't the G1 Vahi (or a mask with the same design as it) be the "upper half" of the MoT?

Surely that is precisely what the graphic novel is saying?

 

They have no issue leaving the Lower MoT's appearance a mystery for now. So the idea that the Vahi is only used as a "placeholder image" for the Upper MoT doesn't really make sense when they could have just not shown the mask at all (eg. hide it in light, or energy like the MoUP, or just not show that camera angle like in the animations etc.).

 

Maybe some anti-connection people don't like the fact that the Vahi is part of G2?

 

P.S. I'm calling it that the MoUP is the Lower MoT.

I mean, the G1 Vahi covers the LOWER half of the face. So I can't imagine that the UPPER half of the Mask of Time actually resembles it that closely. It's placeholder art, mark my words. If it weren't they'd have at least drawn it instead of just photoshopping it on there.

 

Also, in the section of the graphic novel that clarifies the information about the Mask of Time, neither half is depicted, opting instead for a basic half silhouette. And the idea that the Mask of Ultimate Power is half of the mask is ridiculous—that'd imply that only half of the mask ever existed for most of history and the other half was never MEANT to exist.

 

But maybe some pro-connection people still want to cling to any vague "evidence" that the universe and characters are the same, even when we've been told otherwise.

[fishers64]

That placeholder art for the Vahi doesn't look like the MoUP - it looks like Tahu's Master Mask, clearly making it a placeholder. 

 

Spikes, folks. The MoUP has spikes. 

[Regitnui]

And Conspicuous CG, folks. That Vahi does not match the art style.

[Votuko]

I mean, the G1 Vahi covers the LOWER half of the face.

 

Doesn't stop it being the upper half of the completed Mask of Time. For example:

Or the writers may have got their "upper" and "lower" mixed up.

 

 

And the idea that the Mask of Ultimate Power is half of the mask is ridiculous—that'd imply that only half of the mask ever existed for most of history and the other half was never MEANT to exist.

 

Why ridiculous? The Vahi (in G1) was pretty underpowered for one (half?) mask, while the MoUP in G2 seems to have too much power to contain in one (half?) mask. If you worked out you had half a powerful mask but it contained less than half its full power, it would make sense to want to avoid making the second half that contained the rest of the power in case it was hugely unstable and dangerous. And there you have the basis for the One Element Rule.

Combining Vahi and MoUP could then give a way to stabilise the mask at the end of 2017. (Not that I totally believe this theory, but it does fit.)

 

But possibly the main reason to believe that what is shown in the graphic novel is canon, is what was said at NYCC in 2014. Remember, we were told that the G1 Vahi is half a mask, and that there would be a whole Mask of Time in G2. Most people dismissed that as a comment on the Vahi's shape, but now that there being two literal half masks is confirmed, it seems pretty clear that one of them will be the Vahi.

 

 

P.S. Also, time constraints. There isn't time to introduce three new Mask of Time designs between now and the end of 2017, and it wouldn't make much sense to do so if the MoT isn't even one of the main masks in the story. Out of universe, the "half masks" thing seems like story justification for the MoT looking like the Vahi now but being completely different when released in a set.

[OrangeFikou]

maybe placeholder mask isn't just a placeholder?

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Only problem I see with the above example is that the Mask otherwise looks complete. I was assuming it would just be a half a mask from the forehead down to the nose but I guess that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

 

-NotS

[fishers64]

I would bet some pretty good money that we haven't seen the G2 Mask of Time design anywhere. 

[Votuko]

With all this talk of "placeholders", I'd really like somebody to provide the original image / concept art that has supposedly been copy-pasted into the graphic novel.

Because to me, the image looks like it was drawn new for the novel. Looking closely, it is definitely "drawn" and not the CG render available on BS01. It is also oriented correctly in relation to the altar that it floats above, which is unlikely to be accidental.

 

But the main thing is, whether deliberately or accidentally, it isn't the same design as the prototype Vahi (or any other prototype Vahi I can find on Google images). This depiction has four horizontal "bars" on the mouth area, while all the prototypes (and finalised G1 version) have five.

 

 

I would bet some pretty good money that we haven't seen the G2 Mask of Time design anywhere.

 

Assuming you mean either of the half masks, I'd be willing to make that bet.

Would 10 000 widgets be high enough stakes?

[Regitnui]

But the main thing is, whether deliberately or accidentally, it isn't the same design as the prototype Vahi (or any other prototype Vahi I can find on Google images). This depiction has four horizontal "bars" on the mouth area, while all the prototypes (and finalised G1 version) have five.

 

By the same logic, Lhikan didn't wear a Hau, because that had way more differences to the other hau we saw than that MoT has to the Vahi.

[Votuko]

 

But the main thing is, whether deliberately or accidentally, it isn't the same design as the prototype Vahi (or any other prototype Vahi I can find on Google images). This depiction has four horizontal "bars" on the mouth area, while all the prototypes (and finalised G1 version) have five.

By the same logic, Lhikan didn't wear a Hau, because that had way more differences to the other hau we saw than that MoT has to the Vahi.

When did I say it wasn't the Vahi? I think you misread my post - I was explaining why it is a new drawing of the Vahi, rather than something reused.

Hence it isn't a placeholder image, and (that half of) the G2 Mask of Time really does look like the G1 Vahi.

[Lyichir]

 

 

But the main thing is, whether deliberately or accidentally, it isn't the same design as the prototype Vahi (or any other prototype Vahi I can find on Google images). This depiction has four horizontal "bars" on the mouth area, while all the prototypes (and finalised G1 version) have five.

By the same logic, Lhikan didn't wear a Hau, because that had way more differences to the other hau we saw than that MoT has to the Vahi.

When did I say it wasn't the Vahi? I think you misread my post - I was explaining why it is a new drawing of the Vahi, rather than something reused.

Hence it isn't a placeholder image, and (that half of) the G2 Mask of Time really does look like the G1 Vahi.

 

Even assuming it IS drawn, that alone isn't evidence that it's anything more than a placeholder. All it confirms is that the artist is more competent than I gave them credit for (which I apologize for, since I should have compared the images more closely before echoing that accusation). It's still a mask that we know for a fact is worn on the bottom half of the face, and is seemingly unchanged from G1 despite the fact that the chances of the exact same mask being remolded as is are ridiculously unlikely. And why would the mask not be pictured in its respective section of the book if the mask's design was in fact finalized? The evidence is still heavily weighted against the Mask of Time's depiction in the comic being reliable.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Lyichir

[believe victims]

So let me make sure I've got this straight.

 

The Vahi in the book is an accurate representation of the G2 Vahi, even though it's obviously the lower half of a mask.

 

And at the same time, the lower half of the mask has to be the G1 Vahi.

 

Is this the full Mask of Time?

 

[Petewa]

 

I mean, the G1 Vahi covers the LOWER half of the face.

 

Doesn't stop it being the upper half of the completed Mask of Time. For example:

Or the writers may have got their "upper" and "lower" mixed up.

Dude, the MoUP isn't the Mask of Time. If anything, it's the mask of light, just compare the silhouette of the MoUP to that of the Ahvokii, and tell me they aren't similar.

[believe victims]

...or it's called the Mask of Ultimate Power because it isn't constrained by any one element, but instead contains All? I thought that was kind of its point; Makuta made it using all of the elements. If that all just condensed down into a single power, that would be rather... anticlimactic.

[Petewa]

...or it's called the Mask of Ultimate Power because it isn't constrained by any one element, but instead contains All? I thought that was kind of its point; Makuta made it using all of the elements. If that all just condensed down into a single power, that would be rather... anticlimactic.

I guess you're right, I just think it's funny how much it looks like the Avohkii.

[Regitnui]

 

 

But the main thing is, whether deliberately or accidentally, it isn't the same design as the prototype Vahi (or any other prototype Vahi I can find on Google images). This depiction has four horizontal "bars" on the mouth area, while all the prototypes (and finalised G1 version) have five.

By the same logic, Lhikan didn't wear a Hau, because that had way more differences to the other hau we saw than that MoT has to the Vahi.

When did I say it wasn't the Vahi? I think you misread my post - I was explaining why it is a new drawing of the Vahi, rather than something reused.

Hence it isn't a placeholder image, and (that half of) the G2 Mask of Time really does look like the G1 Vahi.

You're claiming that it's the G2 Mask of Time, which must have a new design to fit onto the new head piece. But that reproduction of the G1 Vahi must be different because there are four horizontal bars instead of five. I'm pointing out that the number of bars doesn't matter; that's still the Vahi. The Vahi is a mask without a forehead. How can it be the top half of the MoT the Protectors are said to possess?

[Votuko]

Even assuming it IS drawn, that alone isn't evidence that it's anything more than a placeholder. All it confirms is that the artist is more competent than I gave them credit for (which I apologize for, since I should have compared the images more closely before echoing that accusation). It's still a mask that we know for a fact is worn on the bottom half of the face, and is seemingly unchanged from G1 despite the fact that the chances of the exact same mask being remolded as is are ridiculously unlikely. And why would the mask not be pictured in its respective section of the book if the mask's design was in fact finalized? The evidence is still heavily weighted against the Mask of Time's depiction in the comic being reliable.

Well, the main arguments given for it being a placeholder are that it is the "wrong art style" or that it is "copy-pasted". Yet, by looking closely you can see it is a new image, so isn't copy-pasted. And as it was drawn specifically for this purpose, the art style is a deliberate choice, not a mistake.

 

The fact that the Vahi covers the bottom of the face, not the top, isn't really relevant to whether it can form the upper part of the completed Mask of Time. I gave two examples of how this could be done in a earlier post. (eg "Upper" could mean that part has to be placed on top of the other part when you lie the masks flat.)

 

I think the assumption that the Upper MoT (or even the Lower MoT) needs to fit the new head piece is not necessarily right. (Does anyone wear the Upper MoT in-story? Why not? Does it not fit them?) Personally, I don't expect either "half mask" to appear in sets.

[@Regitnui Yes, it's the G2 Mask of Time. No, it doesn't need to fit the new headpiece.]

At NYCC we were told we would get a completed MoT in G2. There isn't time before 2017 ends to get three MoTs in set form, so I expect only the completed mask will be released. The half masks are just plot devices.

 

Lastly, the mystery silhouette almost certainly represents the Lower MoT, not the Upper MoT. It is to illustrate the point about the Protectors not knowing what the L/MoT looks like.

 

 

tl;dr: There are no arguments left for the U/MoT not being the Vahi that have not been debunked. If anybody wants to claim that an aspect of official story material is non-canon, the burden of proof lies with them.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Votuko

[Lyichir]

 

Even assuming it IS drawn, that alone isn't evidence that it's anything more than a placeholder. All it confirms is that the artist is more competent than I gave them credit for (which I apologize for, since I should have compared the images more closely before echoing that accusation). It's still a mask that we know for a fact is worn on the bottom half of the face, and is seemingly unchanged from G1 despite the fact that the chances of the exact same mask being remolded as is are ridiculously unlikely. And why would the mask not be pictured in its respective section of the book if the mask's design was in fact finalized? The evidence is still heavily weighted against the Mask of Time's depiction in the comic being reliable.

Well, the main arguments given for it being a placeholder are that it is the "wrong art style" or that it is "copy-pasted". Yet, by looking closely you can see it is a new image, so isn't copy-pasted. And as it was drawn specifically for this purpose, the art style is a deliberate choice, not a mistake.

 

The fact that the Vahi covers the bottom of the face, not the top, isn't really relevant to whether it can form the upper part of the completed Mask of Time. I gave two examples of how this could be done in a earlier post. (eg "Upper" could mean that part has to be placed on top of the other part when you lie the masks flat.)

 

I think the assumption that the Upper MoT (or even the Lower MoT) needs to fit the new head piece is not necessarily right. (Does anyone wear the Upper MoT in-story? Why not? Does it not fit them?) Personally, I don't expect either "half mask" to appear in sets.

[@Regitnui Yes, it's the G2 Mask of Time. No, it doesn't need to fit the new headpiece.]

At NYCC we were told we would get a completed MoT in G2. There isn't time before 2017 ends to get three MoTs in set form, so I expect only the completed mask will be released. The half masks are just plot devices.

 

Lastly, the mystery silhouette almost certainly represents the Lower MoT, not the Upper MoT. It is to illustrate the point about the Protectors not knowing what the L/MoT looks like.

 

 

tl;dr: There are no arguments left for the U/MoT not being the Vahi that have not been debunked. If anybody wants to claim that an aspect of official story material is non-canon, the burden of proof lies with them.

You can talk all you like about there being "no arguments that have not been debunked", but saying something over and over doesn't make it true. But if you want debunking, let's take a hammer to some of your own ridiculous claims.

 

Well, the main arguments given for it being a placeholder are that it is the "wrong art style" or that it is "copy-pasted". Yet, by looking closely you can see it is a new image, so isn't copy-pasted. And as it was drawn specifically for this purpose, the art style is a deliberate choice, not a mistake.

Just because something was deliberately drawn doesn't mean it's based on an actual finalized design. In fact, the use of the G1 mask itself implies that it ISN'T, because if a finalized design for the mask were accessible to the artist it would have been used. An illustrated placeholder is still a placeholder.

 

 

I think the assumption that the Upper MoT (or even the Lower MoT) needs to fit the new head piece is not necessarily right. (Does anyone wear the Upper MoT in-story? Why not? Does it not fit them?) Personally, I don't expect either "half mask" to appear in sets.

 

At NYCC we were told we would get a completed MoT in G2. There isn't time before 2017 ends to get three MoTs in set form, so I expect only the completed mask will be released. The half masks are just plot devices.

Making the Mask of Time a key element of the story, making its design a core mystery of the series, and then failing to include it in sets would be a phenomenally stupid move by Lego. The story exists to support the sets, not the other way around, and the heavy foreshadowing about the Mask of Time's "other half" implies that the mask will only become more relevant as the series progresses. The mask may not appear in sets yet, but it will appear—to do otherwise would be a colossal failure of set/story integration. As for whether we get "three masks", we obviously won't—but for a mask that can be split in two, the obvious solution would be to make it as two separate parts that connect together, rather than just one merged form.

 

Also, it doesn't necessarily need to be done before 2017 ends, because the theme is not necessarily ending in 2017. And even if it were (and you're operating on the equally flawed assumption that only one special mask an be released per wave), there are still a full three waves of sets due before the end of 2017.

 

Lastly, the mystery silhouette almost certainly represents the Lower MoT, not the Upper MoT. It is to illustrate the point about the Protectors not knowing what the L/MoT looks like.

If EITHER form of the mask were finalized, don't you think they'd use an actual picture as opposed to an obviously inaccurate silhouette? After all, assuming the appearance in the comic is finalized, they're not exactly trying to keep it a secret. That is, unless the form used in the comic isn't good enough for some reason...

Edited January 3, 2016 by Lyichir

[Votuko]

Just because something was deliberately drawn doesn't mean it's based on an actual finalized design. In fact, the use of the G1 mask itself implies that it ISN'T, because if a finalized design for the mask were accessible to the artist it would have been used.

"The U/MoT can't look the same as the G1 Vahi because the G1 Vahi is from G1."

Running out of actual arguments?

 

Quick-fire responses:

(Individual quotes broke the quote limit, so I did this.)

 

(1) Making the Mask of Time a key element of the story, making its design a core mystery of the series, [...]

(2) [...] and then failing to include it in sets would be a phenomenally stupid move by Lego.

(3) the obvious solution would be to make it as two separate parts that connect together, rather than just one merged form

(4) Also, it doesn't necessarily need to be done before 2017 ends

(5) If EITHER form of the mask were finalized, don't you think they'd use an actual picture as opposed to an obviously inaccurate silhouette?​

 

(1) The U/MoT had one brief story appearance a year ago. Hardly on the level of the three main masks.

(2) I agree - the completed MoT will be in a set.

(3) In your opinion. But so far it is only confirmed that they "combine" in-story. Did the Great Disks physically slot together IRL to make the Disk of Time?

(4) It was promised at NYCC, at which point G2 only had three years confirmed, so yes it does.

(5) They are probably both finalised. The half the Protectors own is shown in the graphic novel. The silhouette illustrates the point that the Protectors have never seen the other half.

 

 

[...] your own ridiculous claims

like dis if u cri evry tim :'''''''''''''''''''(

[fishers64]

Making the Mask of Time a key element of the story, making its design a core mystery of the series, and then failing to include it in sets would be a phenomenally stupid move by Lego. The story exists to support the sets, not the other way around, and the heavy foreshadowing about the Mask of Time's "other half" implies that the mask will only become more relevant as the series progresses. The mask may not appear in sets yet, but it will appear—to do otherwise would be a colossal failure of set/story integration. As for whether we get "three masks", we obviously won't—but for a mask that can be split in two, the obvious solution would be to make it as two separate parts that connect together, rather than just one merged form.

Also, it doesn't necessarily need to be done before 2017 ends, because the theme is not necessarily ending in 2017. And even if it were (and you're operating on the equally flawed assumption that only one special mask an be released per wave), there are still a full three waves of sets due before the end of 2017.

Of note: there are three waves left. The obvious way to do marketing is to release the MoUP next wave, one of the halves of the Vahi in the first half of 2017, and the second half of the Vahi in Winter 2017, boom, new Bionicle finale. 

 

This allows for a super-consistent marketing message in the vein of collecting all the cool masks. 

 

Now whether the G1 Vahi is one of the mask halves, I have no idea, and none of us really knows. There's been a bunch of hints in the animations and now in this book that it could be, but we really don't know. 

 

However, if they do release the halves of the Vahi in consecutive waves, it would make sense for them to release the top half first (so it would connect to the head) and the bottom, more mysterious half second. Thus, it does make more sense for the Vahi we know to be the top half of the mask. That still doesn't answer the why and how. 

[Bfahome]

Been following this topic since the beginning and still seeing no reason to believe it will end up being the Vahi or looking like the Vahi or be anything like the Vahi other than having the power of "time".  Well, any actual reason, you'll always have "well you can't prove it won't!"

 

The image in the graphic novel is a derivative of the prototype Vahi image, that much is painfully obvious:

 

- It's skewed and distorted and further edited to get it to a point where it looks like it's turned.  You can see this in the way the left cheek is actually taller than the right cheek, breaking the perspective; for that to work with the angle it's at we'd have to be looking at the inside of the mask, because as it is the right cheek should be "closer" to us, and therefore shown larger, than the left one.

- You can also see the background perfectly through the mask's left cheek holes, consistent with a warped image of the front view and not so much with the side views you can see next to it in the image of the prototype, otherwise the material thickness would be visible somehow.

- The angles of the grille, the eye "T" and the bottom do not make sense relative to each other.

 

Whether it's a photo manipulation of the existing image or a trace of such a manipulation I can't say for certain, but I'm leaning heavily toward the former, because the oh-so-revealing front-grille-with-four-bars looks like it's been edited in relation to the mask.  In the high-resolution image you can see that the top of the grille section is near-horizontal (almost pixel perfect) relative to the page:

 

 

So some sort of fakery was used, otherwise it'd be horizontal relative to the mask.

 

(My bet's on that they skewed the front-view and then cut in the grille from one of the side views to match the angle better.  I'll be getting the book on Wednesday so I can check it out at print resolution then, which I'd hope would be higher than the images online.)

 

And to top it off, even if this were an entirely new art asset that doesn't mean it'll be the final look.  The Voya Nui Online Game had three Mask of Life designs, one on the Chapter 8 screen, one repurposed later as the "Vision Mask", and the "final" one that was also used briefly in BIONICLE Heroes.  None of these ended up being the final set version, an inconsistency explained away by the fact that it can shapeshift.

 

(As an aside, there don't seem to be any clean images of the rendered Vahi out there, only animated ones or ones on busy backgrounds, so if you're looking for a placeholder to edit in it makes sense that you'd choose the one with the blank white background to cut out.)

 

e: Just tilted my laptop and accidentally noticed that a couple of pixels around the edge of the big hole on the mask's right cheek are lighter than the yellow background, probably leftovers from the original white background.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Bfahome

[Votuko]

Been following this topic since the beginning and still seeing no reason to believe it will end up being the Vahi or looking like the Vahi or be anything like the Vahi other than having the power of "time". Well, any actual reason, you'll always have "well you can't prove it won't!"

So the fact that they literally showed it to be the Vahi in the graphic novel isn't an "actual reason"?

 

Or the story team saying that the G1 Vahi is a half mask all the way back at NYCC?

 

It doesn't really matter whether the illustrator broke into an arcade in the dead of night to steal pixels from Pacman to make the Vahi image; the Vahi is still shown, rather than the mask being obscured by light or out of shot, implying that it is finalised.

 

Of note: there are three waves left. The obvious way to do marketing is to release the MoUP next wave, one of the halves of the Vahi in the first half of 2017, and the second half of the Vahi in Winter 2017, boom, new Bionicle finale.

I'd be surprised if the MoUP wasn't saved for 2017, since we have three years for the three main masks. Is it possible for both half masks to attach to the head piece individually, though? Because sales-wise, it seems unlikely that they will release a mask that only attaches to a mask from the previous wave.

[believe victims]

So the fact that they literally showed it to be the Vahi in the graphic novel isn't an "actual reason"?

 

 

Not unless you want to seriously argue that there's also a variation of Vizuna that looks like a green Narmoto, because apparently we're taking whatever decisions an artist made as complete 100% unbending canon (even though, as established by Bfahome above, it's literally the exact image in question crudely edited in, which suggests to me that whoever did it was told "the mask of time is in this panel" and plunked in whatever mask of time they could find.) Sometimes, in the process of churning out a graphic novel for children, "is this 100% representative of canon" isn't the first thought on anyone's mind.

 

Can you somehow twist the mask so it fits on the forehead instead of the mouth? Sure! But I wouldn't take that as evidence, considering I can also wear pants on my head, socks on my ears, and a jacket 'round my waist. That doesn't change how they're clearly supposed to be worn, any more than being able to put the Vahi on the forehead changes that it's got a clear mouth section, lobes designed to wrap around the cheek area of the head it was designed for, and small indents for where the eyes are supposed to align, making it clearly the lower half of a mask. The only way it can possibly construed as the upper half of a mask is if the lower half is a beard.

 

It doesn't really matter whether the illustrator broke into an arcade in the dead of night to steal pixels from Pacman to make the Vahi image; the Vahi is still shown, rather than the mask being obscured by light or out of shot, implying that it is finalised.

 

 

So then riddle me this, Batman.

 

Why, in the exact same book, is the Mask of Time shown as a silhouette, rather than just showing the finalized design? I mean, it can't be that they got shy about showing it; they wouldn't have left it in the panel if that were the case.

 

One of the two is a mistake, and I think you're choosing the wrong one to believe.

[Votuko]

 

Not unless you want to seriously argue that there's also a variation of Vizuna that looks like a green Narmoto, because apparently we're taking whatever decisions an artist made as complete 100% unbending canon

Nope, we're working with this magical concept known as "burden of proof".

 

Let me explain how it works for the benefit of the people who don't seem to understand it:

1. When something like a graphic novel is released, all the information within it is initially assumed to be correct, because it is an official source.

2. If you wish to claim that a piece of information is in fact incorrect, you have to provide evidence as to why this is.

3. If the evidence is compelling enough then you have shown that the particular bit of information is incorrect.

 

This process is easy for "green Narmoto" because we can compare to the sets and all other story media, which it does not match. Therefore that depiction is incorrect.

But for the Vahi, there is no real evidence for it being incorrect. The manner in which the image was created is not evidence that the wrong thing has been drawn. Argument from incredulity (ie. you do not personally know how it could attach to the other half in-story so do not believe it will) is also a logical fallacy. (And even though the burden of proof does not require it, I can give further evidence for the image being correct in the form of the BIONICLE team revealing that the G1 Vahi is a half mask at NYCC - the interview should still be on YouTube.)

 

 

The "Vahi on forehead" thing feels almost like trolling at this point, since I gave two possible solutions for that earlier (using my pro MS Paint skills ), including one way in which the Vahi could attach to the completed mask in the same place it usually attaches to the head (ie. over the mouth), while still being considered the "upper half". But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't read any earlier posts.

 

 

 

So then riddle me this, Batman.

 

Why, in the exact same book, is the Mask of Time shown as a silhouette, rather than just showing the finalized design?

Another thing I've already answered earlier (I may have to stop responding to these if it's going to be the same things over and over). But since you asked nicely, I'll draw a diagram for you:

[believe victims]

The "Vahi on forehead" thing feels almost like trolling at this point, since I gave two possible solutions for that earlier (using my pro MS Paint skills ), including one way in which the Vahi could attach to the completed mask in the same place it usually attaches to the head (ie. over the mouth), while still being considered the "upper half". But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't read any earlier posts

 

I saw your image, and it looks ridiculous. Your suggestion is that by "lower" they meant in terms of... layers? I'm honestly so confused. You're just throwing out suggestions that may be right, and using them to obfuscate much likelier alternatives simply by shifting the burden of proof onto the others.

 

(And even though the burden of proof does not require it, I can give further evidence for the image being correct in the form of the BIONICLE team revealing that the G1 Vahi is a half mask at NYCC - the interview should still be on YouTube.)

 

Yes, the G1 Vahi is obviously half a mask. Still doesn't prove a thing in regards to this being the G2 Vahi's half-mask design. Unicron and the GSR can both be described as planet-sized robots, but you can't use that as evidence for them being the same planet-sized robot design.

 

As for your new confusing image, that seems unnecessarily convoluted. The beginning paragraph makes it obvious the section is about the Mask of Time they currently have, and the silhouette is accompanying that section. It is a perfectly logical conclusion to draw that the silhouette represents that they have no design for the mask that they either can or desire to show at this time.

 

Look, you can throw around all the high-school debate terms in the world, but in the end, you're just deflecting from the fact that you only have one actual piece of "evidence" for your claim (that it was published in the graphic novel), and are just using the burden of proof to draw away from that. Your only evidence is that the graphic novel showed it, and even that is predicated on the assumption that everything in the graphic novel is canon until proven otherwise... but the only reason this can't be proven otherwise, as opposed to the green Narmoto, or the disparities with the animations, is that this is the only place to show a design for the Mask of Time at all, which... is honestly reason enough to question it? If they wanted to show the G2 Mask of Time, the fact that the Protector's guide silhouetted it, as well as the fact they conveniently left it off-screen in the animations, seems to be at odds with it. This is the only image we have of it, and it's a crudely-edited piece of G1 concept art in a book where all other masks are drawn. Seems kinda weird to hold it up as unbending canon.

 

edit: edited the last paragraph to be less... confrontational. sorry.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Dina Saruyama

[Bfahome]

 

Not unless you want to seriously argue that there's also a variation of Vizuna that looks like a green Narmoto, because apparently we're taking whatever decisions an artist made as complete 100% unbending canon

Nope, we're working with this magical concept known as "burden of proof".

 

Let me explain how it works for the benefit of the people who don't seem to understand it:

1. When something like a graphic novel is released, all the information within it is initially assumed to be correct, because it is an official source.

2. If you wish to claim that a piece of information is in fact incorrect, you have to provide evidence as to why this is.

3. If the evidence is compelling enough then you have shown that the particular bit of information is incorrect.

 

This process is easy for "green Narmoto" because we can compare to the sets and all other story media, which it does not match. Therefore that depiction is incorrect.

Why should we assume that everything the graphic novel shows is in its finalized, 100% canonical form?  I mean, there's already the error of the mis-colored Protectors, so clearly this is a bad assumption.

 

(Let's see some evidence for that claim amirite.)

 

(Also, if you want to throw around logical concepts, here's one: Occam's razor is the idea that you shouldn't assume more than you have to, and you're making a lot of assumptions, some being quite shaky, in order to keep up the idea that the Vahi is the finalized Mask of Time.)

 

 

 

But for the Vahi, there is no real evidence for it being incorrect.

you'll always have "well you can't prove it won't!"

[Votuko]

The beginning paragraph makes it obvious the section is about the Mask of Time they currently have, and the silhouette is accompanying that section.

No, it doesn't. You are just asserting that.

I'd say the main point of the section is about the existence of a more complete version of the Mask of Time than has been already seen.

 

Look, you can throw around all the high-school debate terms in the world

At least I'm not throwing around ad hominem attacks, eh? (Sadly I didn't attend a "high-school debating society" so I find it quite surprising when people think that sort of thing is acceptable in a well-mannered discussion.)

 

As you seem to accept, the burden of proof is with you so I need not provide any further evidence to maintain my position.

 

 

Why should we assume that everything the graphic novel shows is in its finalized, 100% canonical form?

Basically, because the graphic novel as a whole is finalised - it has been released!

(Although it's not really assuming that everything is correct, as there will probably be the odd mistake. Just that if you pick one detail, it is pretty much certain that that detail is correct.)

 

And Occam's Razor doesn't work for you, because my argument doesn't use any assumptions. I'm literally saying "the MoT looks like the image that has been released of it".

 

 

Anyway, I think I will have to step away from this discussion for now, as I'm not a fan of the tone it's shifting towards. Have fun, everyone.

[Bfahome]

Basically, because the graphic novel as a whole is finalised - it has been released!

(Although it's not really assuming that everything is correct, as there will probably be the odd mistake. Just that if you pick one detail, it is pretty much certain that that detail is correct.)

The fact that the book was released does not mean that every detail, especially ones that hint towards future story, is concrete and final.  The Voya Nui Online Game was released, as I said, with unfinished and contradictory Mask of Life designs.  The Hero Pack had the non-final Mask of Creation image on it.  The cover for Land of the Lost used a prototype Ehlek.  There is a long and glorious history of BIONICLE media not always using final designs or facts, so even when they're "complete" they're not always consistent or true to canon.

 

Also, we aren't just picking details at random here, we're talking about ones that contradict established facts or are otherwise logically inconsistent.  Sure you can point and say "look, Pohatu is brown and has boomerangs, that's accurate!" but that doesn't mean the Vahi will appear any more than it means that the Protectors have color-shifting powers.

 

And Occam's Razor doesn't work for you, because my argument doesn't use any assumptions. I'm literally saying "the MoT looks like the image that has been released of it".

You're right, that's not an assumption, it's an assertion.  Back it up with evidence.  So far you've provided none, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

And no, "it appears this way in the book" is not evidence of the book's depiction being accurate, because that's what you're asserting in the first place.  That would be the "Texas sharpshooter fallacy".

 

Occam's razor comes in with the fact that you'd have to assume the book's artists had access to the Mask of Time's final design, but then decided that instead of illustrating it they'd use an old prototype image and the silhouette of the Mask of Fire.  That's a far greater leap than assuming they simply didn't have the finalized designs.

 

As far as I'm concerned I've satisfied my burden of proof that the mask has been edited in after the drawing was done (something you said wasn't the case).  And to me, that points more towards the fact that the book's authors just wanted something to put there and that it is not indicative of the mask's final design.

 

(Also if you don't like the "tone" of this argument, you may want to avoid responding with things such as "like dis if u cri evry tim :'''''''''''''''''''(".)

[Naota Takizawa]

The vahi in the first panel is a warped version of the 2001 prototype & the mask of fire silhouette is just a placeholder, something to be replaced when the final design is released. I've already said this, but it won't go through Vatuko's skull, so I'll just say it again.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

It's obviously a placeholder image... poorly warped, clearly not reminiscent of the final design, and overanalyzed by all. Indeed, this is what BZPower was meant for.

 

It's a mistake that we ended up seeing it at all... I'm sure we'll laugh about this in a few years when the real Mask of Time appears and this was clearly just a placeholder.

 

I've already said this, but it won't go through Vatuko's skull, so I'll just say it again.

 

You're doing it wrong. Instead of trying to force thoughts into Votuko's head, you should instead remove the ones that already exist. You must take him to.... the Mind Evaporator!

 

Edited January 5, 2016 by TheSkeletonMan939

[Rakrondewl]

I believe that the mask in the middle of all the protectors is just pasted in.  The second mask or silhouette is Tahu's mask thus clearly a place holder.

[Regitnui]

Didn't we have similar sorts of debate regards the ultimately debunked G1-G2 connection? Someone proposing the link, everyone pointing out how it doesn't work, then someone starts making diagrams in Paint and leaps of thought and then tries to claim that the burden of proof is on everyone else to prove them wrong,despite sitting on a pile of evidence so shaky that a mistimed hiccup could knock it all over?

[Virid]

I think just about everything has been covered here, but I might as well add my opinion to the pile. The MoT in the graphic novel is obviously a place holder, as has been pointed out a number of the above comments. Whether the G1 Vahi design will be used in G2, if the answer is that it will be it won't be as the top half of the MoT, as the mask shown is meant to be. A number of ways in which it could be the top half have been given, but none of them make any sense in terms of why Lego would do that. It makes no sense for the Vahi, a mask which covers the lower face, to be used as the top half of a mask, unless the lower half of the mask extends downwards even further.

[You just lost the game]

It's been said once, but I feel like saying it again:

The Vahi in the comic, is obviously not it's final design.

I see no reason as to why Lego would be lazy enough to flat out reuse an old (and poor, might I add) design.