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Toa Of Virtues

Real-life physics in Bionicle

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I made this topic a while back here, and I thought it would be fun to start up again.

 

Greg has often said that real-life physics don't apply in Bionicle, but what if they did? Basically, ask a question about a power or event in Bionicle, and I (or anyone else who would like to join in) will explain why it would or wouldn't be possible in real life. Think of this as the Mythbusters for Bionicle. Be warned, though, there will be a LOT of heavy science here.

 

Screenshot2014-10-19at65747PM_zps46c01dc

 

To start off, let's talk about the demise of our favorite Bohrak-Kal, Lehvak-Kal. In the story, Lehvak-Kal looses control over his element of vacuum. This makes him rocket into the air, and fly into orbit. At first, this seems semi-reasonable. After all, air pressure is a force to be reckoned with. To model this, let's put a metal ball (Lehvak-Kal) at the bottom of a straight pipe going out of the atmosphere. We then remove all the air from the pipe, making probably the largest vacuum chamber ever created. The atmospheric pressure would then push Lehvak-Kal through the pipe, and out the other end. With this method, would he escape the atmosphere at escape velocity? For our calculations, let's use Earth's gravity and atmosphere, putting the length of the pipe to be around 17,000 meters tall.

 

At first, Lehvak-Kal would experience a pressure of 101,325 Pascals. If we assume that Lehvak-Kal is 1 meter in diameter, the affected surface area would be roughly equivalent to .785 m2, meaning he would feel a force of 79,580 Newtons. If we assume that Lehvak-Kal has about the same mass as a ball of aluminum his size, his mass would be about 1,413 kg. This puts his initial acceleration at (79,580-9.8*1,413)/1,413 m/s2 which is 46 m/s2. If we make the same mistake I made in the last topic, to assume the force is constant, it seems that Lehvak-Kal would go above and beyond the necessary escape velocity by the time he flings himself out of the atmosphere. However, this is not the case.

 

As you get higher up in the atmosphere, the air becomes less dense. This means that the force Lehvak-Kal feels will go down as he goes up. Specifically, the pressure drops by the equation p = 101325 (1 - 2.25577 10-5 h)5.25588 which obviously complicates things. So, how do we calculate the speed of something being pushed by a changing force? Integrals!

 

The formula needed to calculate his speed, we need to solve fnInt(101,325 (1 - 2.25577 10-5 h)5.25588)dh from 0 to 17,000 and divide that by 17,000 to get the average pressure Lehvak-Kal feels over his trip. This gives us an average of 40,186.8 Pascals, which we can now pretend to be constant through the atmosphere. This all adds up to a whopping 12 m/s2, but is it enough? To get the time, we set 17000=.5*12*t2, giving us t = 58.31 seconds. To get velocity, we simply multiply the acceleration by time and get 699.714 m/s.

 

700 m/s might be fast, but it is nowhere near the 11,186 m/s needed to make it into orbit. The fact of the matter is that you can't get to space by launching yourself straight up using a giant vacuum tube. One could argue that Lehvak-Kal did not shoot straight up, but zig-zagged around in the lower atmosphere to build up speed and then launched himself, but considering the fact that Lehvak-Kal did not want to go to space, I find this unlikely.

Edited by Toa Of Virtues
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Lehvak kal losing power over vacuum. Great. How does that defeat him again? If anything, he'd be more powerful, with a fluctuating region of vacuum making it dangerous to approach him. Maybe it'd suffocate the Krana or freeze him alive (lower pressure, lower boiling point, top layer of liquid on 'skin' or lubricant boils off and freezes the rest behind it), but wouldn't shooting himself off into the air be one of the least likely things that could happen?


:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Lehvak kal losing power over vacuum. Great. How does that defeat him again? If anything, he'd be more powerful, with a fluctuating region of vacuum making it dangerous to approach him. Maybe it'd suffocate the Krana or freeze him alive (lower pressure, lower boiling point, top layer of liquid on 'skin' or lubricant boils off and freezes the rest behind it), but wouldn't shooting himself off into the air be one of the least likely things that could happen?

 

There are limitations of what his shields can do according to BioSector01

 

The Vacuum Shields were the twin shields carried by Lehvak-Kal to channel its Vacuum powers. Extremely powerful, they could take in large amounts of air and hold it for a long period of time, then quickly release the air in a powerful blast that could shatter solid rock. The shields could also function as melee weapons, or be used for defense.

 

 

This implies that either his shields would either start building up too much buildup of air and then release it with the release valves jammed (the air can't get out), eventually causing the weapons to implode with explosive results, caused from too much pressure overflow buildup, or he would be shot up uncontrollably like in the comics.

Edited by necross hordika

 

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I suppose he could make it if he used pressurized air in addition to the vacuum, but that would be a very complicated and precise set of actions that Lehvak-Kal would unwillingly have to do. It makes sense that Lehvak-Kal would open up a giant region of vacuum above his head, and let physics do the rest. Of course, this wouldn't entirely work, but it would get him going pretty fast.

 

The point is, NASA doesn't use giant vacuum tubes and pressurized air as a propellant for a good reason.

Edited by Toa Of Virtues

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Some things to keep in mind:

 

-All that air above Levahk-Kal has to go somewhere and it definitely isn't going to all fit in two shields. Yes, matter can be super-condensed, but the shields would need to be strong enough to hold it and -- correct me if I'm wrong -- no material could ever be that strong.

 

-A vacuum column to the upper-atmosphere created by a vacuum or blast of air from the ground is completely impossible. Rather than create a pillar overhead, a vacuum would just pull in air from around it. Also, a blast of air at any reasonable force would dissapate well before reaching the upper-atmosphere.

 

For those reasons, I think it would actually make a lot more sense for Lehvak-Kal to take in then expel air in bursts on his way into orbit. It wouldn't be too complicated to happen involuntarily either. Basically, those shields are probably designed not to blow up and are therefore likely to have an automatic emergency release valve. Being overloaded, the shields would take in more air than they can actually hold, the valves would open, there is a blast of air below, and the cycle repeats.

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The only problem with your idea is that you use earth's gravity and atmosphere.  I am not as knowledgeable in science as you are but I am pretty sure the Bionicle planet is larger than earth.  That probably throws off the gravity and we don't know what it's atmosphere is composed of or how much there is.

 

You have established it wouldn't work on Earth but the Bionicle world is not Earth.

 

If I'm right, Earth's gravity might be to strong for a creature composed mostly of metal, but they live on/in a 40,000,000ft. robot on a giant water planet, how does that make sense.  Can you help me understand this or tell me scientifically why you agree.

 

I really like this topic it is very informative and interesting.

Edited by Rakrondewl

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The only problem with your idea is that you use earth's gravity and atmosphere.  I am not as knowledgeable in science as you are but I am pretty sure the Bionicle planet is larger than earth.  That probably throws off the gravity and we don't know what it's atmosphere is composed of or how much there is.

 

This is true- we really don't know much about Aqua Magna. However, in all types of media we see what looks like an Earth-like environment. For instance, the existence of clouds imply an atmosphere similar to ours. We also don't see any strange gravitational effects on any of the characters, assuming that the surface gravity is Earth-like. Really, the Earth is the best approximation we have for this, otherwise it would be anyone's guess what the gravity/atmosphere is.

 

Also, in the last topic we did some calculations to see just how big these planets are, their gravity, etc. based on official artwork (see this and this).  These showed that both Aqua Magna and Bara Magna are GIANT. However, they are still able to have Earth-like gravity if they were composed of a very light aerogel-like substance. They would never exist in nature, but still possible.


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The only problem with your idea is that you use earth's gravity and atmosphere.  I am not as knowledgeable in science as you are but I am pretty sure the Bionicle planet is larger than earth.  That probably throws off the gravity and we don't know what it's atmosphere is composed of or how much there is.

 

This is true- we really don't know much about Aqua Magna. However, in all types of media we see what looks like an Earth-like environment. For instance, the existence of clouds imply an atmosphere similar to ours. We also don't see any strange gravitational effects on any of the characters, assuming that the surface gravity is Earth-like. Really, the Earth is the best approximation we have for this, otherwise it would be anyone's guess what the gravity/atmosphere is.

 

Also, in the last topic we did some calculations to see just how big these planets are, their gravity, etc. based on official artwork (see this and this).  These showed that both Aqua Magna and Bara Magna are GIANT. However, they are still able to have Earth-like gravity if they were composed of a very light aerogel-like substance. They would never exist in nature, but still possible.

 

However, we know Aqua Magna is made of water. If we assume it were to have Earth-like gravity, we can calculate its size. g is gravitational acceleration, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the planet, r is the radius, V is volume, and ρ is density of water.

 

g = G * M * r^-2

g = G * V * ρ * r^-2

g = G * 4 * 3^-1 * π * r^3 * ρ * r^-2

r = 3g / (4πGρ)

r = 3 * 9.81 / (4π * 6.67E-11 * 1000)

r = 3.51E7 m

r = 35,100 km

 

As the Mata Nui robot is "only" 12,200 km tall, it's feasible that it would have been able to lie on the surface of the planet. The angle between its head and its feet would be 0.347 radians or 19.9°.

 

However, this means Barra Magna or Spherus Magna must be huge, which is where the problems with gravity come in. 

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The only problem with your idea is that you use earth's gravity and atmosphere.  I am not as knowledgeable in science as you are but I am pretty sure the Bionicle planet is larger than earth.  That probably throws off the gravity and we don't know what it's atmosphere is composed of or how much there is.

 

This is true- we really don't know much about Aqua Magna. However, in all types of media we see what looks like an Earth-like environment. For instance, the existence of clouds imply an atmosphere similar to ours. We also don't see any strange gravitational effects on any of the characters, assuming that the surface gravity is Earth-like. Really, the Earth is the best approximation we have for this, otherwise it would be anyone's guess what the gravity/atmosphere is.

 

Also, in the last topic we did some calculations to see just how big these planets are, their gravity, etc. based on official artwork (see this and this).  These showed that both Aqua Magna and Bara Magna are GIANT. However, they are still able to have Earth-like gravity if they were composed of a very light aerogel-like substance. They would never exist in nature, but still possible.

 

The atmosphere could be earth like but the gravity I don't believe could be.  just the scale and composition of different elements is enough to throw off our comparisons to Earth.  On top of all that robotic creatures probably would suffer more from our gravity and air pressure (please correct me if I am wrong).

 

If Aqua Magna was made up of only light substances woundn't it have been obliterated upon the crash landing of the giant robot?  Or at least make him sink deeper into the planet?

 

 

The only problem with your idea is that you use earth's gravity and atmosphere.  I am not as knowledgeable in science as you are but I am pretty sure the Bionicle planet is larger than earth.  That probably throws off the gravity and we don't know what it's atmosphere is composed of or how much there is.

 

This is true- we really don't know much about Aqua Magna. However, in all types of media we see what looks like an Earth-like environment. For instance, the existence of clouds imply an atmosphere similar to ours. We also don't see any strange gravitational effects on any of the characters, assuming that the surface gravity is Earth-like. Really, the Earth is the best approximation we have for this, otherwise it would be anyone's guess what the gravity/atmosphere is.

 

Also, in the last topic we did some calculations to see just how big these planets are, their gravity, etc. based on official artwork (see this and this).  These showed that both Aqua Magna and Bara Magna are GIANT. However, they are still able to have Earth-like gravity if they were composed of a very light aerogel-like substance. They would never exist in nature, but still possible.

 

However, we know Aqua Magna is made of water. If we assume it were to have Earth-like gravity, we can calculate its size. g is gravitational acceleration, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the planet, r is the radius, V is volume, and ρ is density of water.

 

g = G * M * r^-2

g = G * V * ρ * r^-2

g = G * 4 * 3^-1 * π * r^3 * ρ * r^-2

r = 3g / (4πGρ)

r = 3 * 9.81 / (4π * 6.67E-11 * 1000)

r = 3.51E7 m

r = 35,100 km

 

As the Mata Nui robot is "only" 12,200 km tall, it's feasible that it would have been able to lie on the surface of the planet. The angle between its head and its feet would be 0.347 radians or 19.9°.

 

However, this means Barra Magna or Spherus Magna must be huge, which is where the problems with gravity come in. 

 

I don't think a planet could be completely composed of water, or could it?

Why doesn't the Mata Nui robot just sink to the center of the planet?  Is it because he contains an atmosphere, thus functioning like a battle ship?

Why does Spherus Magna still exist after the robot's impact?  Was the planet always composed of liquid water or was it a gas or solid?

 

I believe 40,000,000 ft. is approximately 12,200 km.

 

You guys really have my brain going now.

 

P.S.  How many moons does Spherus Magna have?  I observed there are waves on the water.  I guess it could also be a close planet.

Edited by Rakrondewl

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Aqua Magna definitely has a solid core. Otherwise a lot of things from the Mahri Nui arc wouldn't make sense, such as the existence of the Razor Whale's Teeth.

 

 

~Unit#phntk#1

What does the core have to do with the teeth of a Razor Whale or is it a place?

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The Razor's Whale Teeth is a collection of jagged rocks on the seafloor in the Black Water that the Barraki used as a meeting place.

 

There's also that time Hewkii and Nuparu got thrown into a trench full of eel nests.

 

 

~Unit#phntk#1

OK it is a place, that makes more sense, thanks.

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Pardon being the debbie downer here but, didn't the old "physics + Bionicles" topic die out while everyone in it was trying to figure out SM's mass and gravity? i dunno, just something i observed about that particular equation. x:

 

 

 

P.S.  How many moons does Spherus Magna have?  I observed there are waves on the water.  I guess it could also be a close planet.

 

 

SM had zero moons, BM has two (the other parts) BoM has like, none? and AM has one satellite, the RS, but i dunno if it can affect tides? ?:

 

hope that helps!


bnnrimg1.pngbnnrimg2.pngbnnrimg3.pngbnnrimg4.pngbnnrimg5.pngbnnrimg6.pngbnnrimg7.pngbnnrimg8.png


Corpus Rahkshi characters: Snap, Teeth ,Rose,Kaita

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The only problem with your idea is that you use earth's gravity and atmosphere.  I am not as knowledgeable in science as you are but I am pretty sure the Bionicle planet is larger than earth.  That probably throws off the gravity and we don't know what it's atmosphere is composed of or how much there is.

 

This is true- we really don't know much about Aqua Magna. However, in all types of media we see what looks like an Earth-like environment. For instance, the existence of clouds imply an atmosphere similar to ours. We also don't see any strange gravitational effects on any of the characters, assuming that the surface gravity is Earth-like. Really, the Earth is the best approximation we have for this, otherwise it would be anyone's guess what the gravity/atmosphere is.

 

Also, in the last topic we did some calculations to see just how big these planets are, their gravity, etc. based on official artwork (see this and this).  These showed that both Aqua Magna and Bara Magna are GIANT. However, they are still able to have Earth-like gravity if they were composed of a very light aerogel-like substance. They would never exist in nature, but still possible.

 

However, we know Aqua Magna is made of water. If we assume it were to have Earth-like gravity, we can calculate its size. g is gravitational acceleration, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the planet, r is the radius, V is volume, and ρ is density of water.

 

g = G * M * r^-2

g = G * V * ρ * r^-2

g = G * 4 * 3^-1 * π * r^3 * ρ * r^-2

r = 3g / (4πGρ)

r = 3 * 9.81 / (4π * 6.67E-11 * 1000)

r = 3.51E7 m

r = 35,100 km

 

As the Mata Nui robot is "only" 12,200 km tall, it's feasible that it would have been able to lie on the surface of the planet. The angle between its head and its feet would be 0.347 radians or 19.9°.

 

However, this means Barra Magna or Spherus Magna must be huge, which is where the problems with gravity come in. 

 

I don't think a planet could be completely composed of water, or could it?

Why doesn't the Mata Nui robot just sink to the center of the planet?  Is it because he contains an atmosphere, thus functioning like a battle ship?

Why does Spherus Magna still exist after the robot's impact?  Was the planet always composed of liquid water or was it a gas or solid?

 

I believe 40,000,000 ft. is approximately 12,200 km.

 

You guys really have my brain going now.

 

P.S.  How many moons does Spherus Magna have?  I observed there are waves on the water.  I guess it could also be a close planet.

 

A planet can be made of water for sure, though it may freeze into ice at the centre.

The Mata Nui robot is made chambers full of air, I'm pretty sure he would float.

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The only problem with your idea is that you use earth's gravity and atmosphere.  I am not as knowledgeable in science as you are but I am pretty sure the Bionicle planet is larger than earth.  That probably throws off the gravity and we don't know what it's atmosphere is composed of or how much there is.

 

This is true- we really don't know much about Aqua Magna. However, in all types of media we see what looks like an Earth-like environment. For instance, the existence of clouds imply an atmosphere similar to ours. We also don't see any strange gravitational effects on any of the characters, assuming that the surface gravity is Earth-like. Really, the Earth is the best approximation we have for this, otherwise it would be anyone's guess what the gravity/atmosphere is.

 

Also, in the last topic we did some calculations to see just how big these planets are, their gravity, etc. based on official artwork (see this and this).  These showed that both Aqua Magna and Bara Magna are GIANT. However, they are still able to have Earth-like gravity if they were composed of a very light aerogel-like substance. They would never exist in nature, but still possible.

 

However, we know Aqua Magna is made of water. If we assume it were to have Earth-like gravity, we can calculate its size. g is gravitational acceleration, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the planet, r is the radius, V is volume, and ρ is density of water.

 

g = G * M * r^-2

g = G * V * ρ * r^-2

g = G * 4 * 3^-1 * π * r^3 * ρ * r^-2

r = 3g / (4πGρ)

r = 3 * 9.81 / (4π * 6.67E-11 * 1000)

r = 3.51E7 m

r = 35,100 km

 

As the Mata Nui robot is "only" 12,200 km tall, it's feasible that it would have been able to lie on the surface of the planet. The angle between its head and its feet would be 0.347 radians or 19.9°.

 

However, this means Barra Magna or Spherus Magna must be huge, which is where the problems with gravity come in. 

 

I don't think a planet could be completely composed of water, or could it?

Why doesn't the Mata Nui robot just sink to the center of the planet?  Is it because he contains an atmosphere, thus functioning like a battle ship?

Why does Spherus Magna still exist after the robot's impact?  Was the planet always composed of liquid water or was it a gas or solid?

 

I believe 40,000,000 ft. is approximately 12,200 km.

 

You guys really have my brain going now.

 

P.S.  How many moons does Spherus Magna have?  I observed there are waves on the water.  I guess it could also be a close planet.

 

A planet can be made of water for sure, though it may freeze into ice at the centre.

The Mata Nui robot is made chambers full of air, I'm pretty sure he would float.

 

That doesn't make any sense.  The pressure of weight on the core would keep it liquid, water is denser in liquid form.

Edited by Rakrondewl

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That doesn't make any sense.  The pressure of weight on the core would keep it liquid, water is denser in liquid form.

 

Not necessarily true. There are many different kinds of ice, some that have a higher density than water. Of course, these don't really occur in nature, but under that much pressure I think you would get some weird effects.


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That doesn't make any sense.  The pressure of weight on the core would keep it liquid, water is denser in liquid form.

 

Not necessarily true. There are many different kinds of ice, some that have a higher density than water. Of course, these don't really occur in nature, but under that much pressure I think you would get some weird effects.

 

Could you give me some examples?

 

Edit:  I googled the subject and found this article.

http://www.livescience.com/1385-scientists-ice-hotter-boiling-water.html

I stand corrected.

Edited by Rakrondewl

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Pardon being the debbie downer here but, didn't the old "physics + Bionicles" topic die out while everyone in it was trying to figure out SM's mass and gravity? i dunno, just something i observed about that particular equation. x:

Actually, the original topic died while discussing the composition of the planets -- about 79 posts later.

 

Anyway, Rahkshi Lalonde, you are right that this has been talked about before so I guess it would be helpful to refer to that rather than start from scratch. Here is the link for the original topic. Talk on the masses, sizes, and densities of the planets begins on page 3, posts #88-#104 (pardon my derpy math: it was a long time ago).

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